Dies irae sighting
Paul Goldstein
West Virginia's) was playing the "Dies irae" theme from time to time during last
night's Nokia Sugar Bowl football game (against the University of Georgia)? Who
says that classical music has no role in today's world? It was a good game,
too.
Bob Harper
>>In article <dpem7...@drn.newsguy.com>, Paul_...@newsguy.com says...
> way some times, but I wonder...
>
> wr
I think Rachmaninoff would answer in the affirmative.
Bob Harper
Paul Goldstein
says...
>way some times, but I wonder...
This particular church chant has been used so often in composer-created
classical music that it seems appropriate to designate it as such. Regardless
of the label, however, I was amused to hear it in that context. (My local
college marching band, the (in)famous Leland Stanford Junior University Marching
Band, is usually heard blasting "All Right Now" by Free during football games.)
gerrie...@cox.net
As would Berlioz, Liszt, Brahms, et al, as well as any composer who
wrote Requiems.
University (and high school) Bands play the well-known sequence (from
the Roman Liturgy) from the stands (when the band's team scores) quite
frequently. Not a rarity.
Medieval and Gregorian Chant (the 'home' of the Dies Irae) couldn't be
more 'classical'.
Gerrie C
(who saw the last quarter of the game, but was 'pulling' for Georgia)
Allen
That's been going on for several years with various bands involved. As I
recall (perhaps erroneously) the first time I noticed it perhaps four or
five years ago, played by the UGA band; turnabout uis fair play, as they
say.
Allen
Ian Pace
"Wayne Reimer" <wrdsl...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.1e2485b53...@news.sf.sbcglobal.net...
> way some times, but I wonder...
>
you define 'classical music' to mean?
Ian
Matthew B. Tepper
following letters to be typed in news:dpem7...@drn.newsguy.com:
At least one of the marching bands in yesterday's (glub) Rose Parade (glub)
played an arrangement of the "Ode to Joy."
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made. ~ FDR (attrib.)
Lars Farm
> In article <1136328614....@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> gerrie...@cox.net says...
> > Medieval and Gregorian Chant (the 'home' of the Dies Irae) couldn't be
> > more 'classical'.
> >
> Using that logic, any folk ditty that has been used in a classical
> composition - say 'Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star' - becomes classical
> music. I don't think it quite works that way, myself.
So, what is your definition of classical music?
best regards
Lars
--
lars farm // http://www.farm.se
lars is also a mail-account on the server farm.se
aim: lars...@mac.com
William Sommerwerck
One plausible definition would be any music in the line that produced modern
opera, chamber, and orchestra music. This would include chant. Of course,
that's a rather circular definition.
I like the definition of "written-out", rather than improvised, but that
would include a lot of jazz (eg, Strayhorn, et al).
Perhaps the best definition of classical music is music you're supposed to
sit down and actively listen to. Music that's intended to appeal to the mind
at least as much as the body. That definition would make Harry Partch (a
nominally classical composer) angry, because he wanted music to be
"corporeal" -- to include dance, singing, etc.
gerrie...@cox.net
Wayne Reimer wrote:
> In article <1136328614....@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> gerrie...@cox.net says...
> > > > Are old church chants classical music? I know it's been marketed that
> > > > way some times, but I wonder...
> > > >
> > > > wr
> > Medieval and Gregorian Chant (the 'home' of the Dies Irae) couldn't be
> > more 'classical'.
> Using that logic, any folk ditty that has been used in a classical
> composition - say 'Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star' - becomes classical
> music. I don't think it quite works that way, myself.
>
> wr
I hardly think the parameters and serious usage of Gregorian Chant can
be compared to a 'ditty', folk or non-folk. In case you didn't
know, the monophony of chant developed into organum and then polyphony
and I suppose you know where THAT led. But maybe you don't think
that such as Palestrina, Monteverdi and Bach are classical.
[From Wikipedia (for your edification):]
"Classical music is generally thought of as sophisticated and refined;
it may stem from a regional tradition, but aspires to universal form of
communication. Classical music is sometimes defined as music produced
in, or rooted in the traditions of art, **ecclesiastical**, and concert
music. Classical music is contrasted with popular or folk music."
Ian Pace
<gerrie...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:1136393159.4...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>
> Wayne Reimer wrote:
>> In article <1136328614....@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
>> gerrie...@cox.net says...
>
>> > > > Are old church chants classical music? I know it's been marketed
>> > > > that
>> > > > way some times, but I wonder...
>> > > >
>> > > > wr
>
>
>> > Medieval and Gregorian Chant (the 'home' of the Dies Irae) couldn't be
>> > more 'classical'.
>
>
>
>> Using that logic, any folk ditty that has been used in a classical
>> composition - say 'Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star' - becomes classical
>> music. I don't think it quite works that way, myself.
>>
>> wr
>
>
> I hardly think the parameters and serious usage of Gregorian Chant can
> be compared to a 'ditty', folk or non-folk.
Why not? And where would you place a troubadour melody?
> In case you didn't
> know, the monophony of chant developed into organum and then polyphony
> and I suppose you know where THAT led. But maybe you don't think
> that such as Palestrina, Monteverdi and Bach are classical.
>
> [From Wikipedia (for your edification):]
> "Classical music is generally thought of as sophisticated and refined;
> it may stem from a regional tradition, but aspires to universal form of
> communication. Classical music is sometimes defined as music produced
> in, or rooted in the traditions of art, **ecclesiastical**, and concert
> music. Classical music is contrasted with popular or folk music."
I'd be careful of using Wikipedia as your only source. The first sentence is
so vague as to be almost meaningless. Whether classical music has ever
achieved anything approaching a 'universal form of communication' is highly
doubtable - some popular music would stand a better chance of fulfilling
that claim.
There were secular traditions of music that grew up and developed from the
late Middle Ages onwards, distinct from sacred music (though of course there
was plenty of cross-fertilisation). Other than 'ecclesiastical', the Wiki
entry only gives the very vague concepts of 'art' music and 'concert' music.
Certainly a 'concert' (in the form of some musical performance at which
spectators were present) in the Middle Ages bore little relation to the
public concert of today. How is that distinct from some folk-singing at a
public gathering, other than in terms of the social class of the spectators.
And what is meant by 'art' here?
I'm still not sure whether we have a workeable definition of 'classical
music' yet.
Ian
gerrie...@cox.net
Ian Pace wrote:
> <gerrie...@cox.net> wrote in message
> > I hardly think the parameters and serious usage of Gregorian Chant can
> > be compared to a 'ditty', folk or non-folk.
> Why not? And where would you place a troubadour melody?
In the 'troubadour' realm, certainly not in the ecclesiastical one. If
you prefer, pop music vs. sacred music.
> > In case you didn't
> > know, the monophony of chant developed into organum and then polyphony
> > and I suppose you know where THAT led. But maybe you don't think
> > that such as Palestrina, Monteverdi and Bach are classical.
> >
> > [From Wikipedia (for your edification):]
> > "Classical music is generally thought of as sophisticated and refined;
> > it may stem from a regional tradition, but aspires to universal form of
> > communication. Classical music is sometimes defined as music produced
> > in, or rooted in the traditions of art, **ecclesiastical**, and concert
> > music. Classical music is contrasted with popular or folk music."
> I'd be careful of using Wikipedia as your only source.
For obvious reasons pertaining to the nature of the comment I was
replying to, I chose the first reference Google provided me. My
'source' for any personal opinions resides in my reading/education.
>The first sentence is
> so vague as to be almost meaningless. Whether classical music has ever
> achieved anything approaching a 'universal form of communication' is highly
> doubtable - some popular music would stand a better chance of fulfilling
> that claim.
Did you note that the sentence said "*aspires* to universal form of
communication"? But I agree in part to what you say.
> There were secular traditions of music that grew up and developed from the
> late Middle Ages onwards, distinct from sacred music (though of course there
> was plenty of cross-fertilisation). Other than 'ecclesiastical', the Wiki
> entry only gives the very vague concepts of 'art' music and 'concert' music.
> Certainly a 'concert' (in the form of some musical performance at which
> spectators were present) in the Middle Ages bore little relation to the
> public concert of today. How is that distinct from some folk-singing at a
> public gathering, other than in terms of the social class of the spectators.
I would guess, possibly, notated music, rehearsals, fees.
> And what is meant by 'art' here?
>
> I'm still not sure whether we have a workeable definition of 'classical
> music' yet.
I think it can more easily be answered by the small "c" and a capital
"C" (providing one knows the distinctions).
Gerrie C
James Kahn
>> So, what is your definition of classical music?
>One plausible definition would be any music in the line that produced modern
>opera, chamber, and orchestra music. This would include chant. Of course,
>that's a rather circular definition.
I think this "genetic" definition works best, and it's not really circular
as long as you define the starting point, which I'm not enough of a historian
to do. It also rules out "Twinkle, Twinkle, Little
Star", which was used by a classical composer (ok, it was "Ah, vous dirai-je
maman"), but is not itself classical music. On the other hand, I'd want to
any definition to rule out use of classical themes in pop music (e.g.
Barry Manilow, Emerson-Lake-Palmer) as making the result "classical."
--
Jim
New York, NY
(Please remove "nospam." to get my e-mail address)
http://www.panix.com/~kahn
Mark Perlman
dramatic music. Of course, they also played the Imperial March from The
Empire Strikes Back. (John Williams' tribute to Holst.)
"Paul Goldstein" <Paul_...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:dpem7...@drn.newsguy.com...
Ian Pace
<gerrie...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:1136397872....@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Ian Pace wrote:
>> <gerrie...@cox.net> wrote in message
>
>
>> > I hardly think the parameters and serious usage of Gregorian Chant can
>> > be compared to a 'ditty', folk or non-folk.
>
>
>
>> Why not? And where would you place a troubadour melody?
>
>
> In the 'troubadour' realm, certainly not in the ecclesiastical one. If
> you prefer, pop music vs. sacred music.
>
Ian
Lars Farm
I've heard the term western art music used for what is often called
classical. To me classical implies that it has passed the test of time.
Good things survive, written out of not.
gerrie...@cox.net
Ian Pace wrote:
> <gerrie...@cox.net> wrote in message
> news:1136397872....@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > Ian Pace wrote:
> >> <gerrie...@cox.net> wrote in message
> >
> >
> >> > I hardly think the parameters and serious usage of Gregorian Chant can
> >> > be compared to a 'ditty', folk or non-folk.
> >
> >
> >
> >> Why not? And where would you place a troubadour melody?
> >
> >
> > In the 'troubadour' realm, certainly not in the ecclesiastical one. If
> > you prefer, pop music vs. sacred music.
> >
> But why is it 'pop' just because it's secular?
>
> Ian
Maybe because sacred song/singing isn't exactly an igniter of those
'secular feelings' like pop is. [ :-) ]
GC
gerrie...@cox.net
Wayne Reimer wrote:
> In article <1136393159.4...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
> gerrie...@cox.net says...
> > I hardly think the parameters and serious usage of Gregorian Chant can
> > be compared to a 'ditty', folk or non-folk. In case you didn't
> > know, the monophony of chant developed into organum and then polyphony
> > and I suppose you know where THAT led. But maybe you don't think
> > that such as Palestrina, Monteverdi and Bach are classical.
> Then don't compare them in that way; I didn't. The point I was making
> is that just because a recognized classical composer incorporates non-
> original material into a work doesn't automatically turn that material
> as it appears in its original form into classical music, by some
> process of reverse musical engineering (think of the Liszt Hungarian
> Rhapsodies, for example). And I don't think that all music going
> backwards in time that can be seen as having been a basis for later
> development into classical music, somehow becomes classical music by
> extension, either, since speculation about pre-historic vocalization
I could agree to some of this. But the origin of the 'discussion' was
the Dies Irae and since it (the DI) preceded that large realm of
composition that we now call 'classical' (and antiquity you know, is
classical), and was important enough to have survived over a thousand
years, how else could it be viewed if not as classic?
> Hmm, I never thought of George Beverly Shea singing "How Great Thou
> Art" at one of those Billy Graham mass hysteria money-making shindigs
> as being classical music before; I should expand my very tentative
> boundary line of classical music, I guess.
George Beverly Shea (whoever that is) singing "How Great Thou Art" at
whatever shingdig is to the meaning and momentum thru the ages of the
Dies Irae ( or the Gloria or Magnificat) as the architecture of the
Ebenezer Baptist Church (Atlanta) is to the Salisbury Cathedral of
Wiltshire, England. Or as Andy Warhol's Soup Cans are to a Renoir or
Matisse still life.
One could argue endlessly as to what constitutes classical music, from
both the broad and historical Art perspective and the confines of
individual merit. I think there might be something to that trend many
years ago of discarding 'classical' for 'serious'.
I am just now looking upon it in similar vein to that popular
definition of what pornography is: I know it when I hear it.
And I don't mean just Haydn and Mozart.
Gerrie C