Wang vs. Lim

[dk]

Which one do you prefer?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbKXB7xqnCI?t=9m55s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15f43ZOQK6Y

dk

[dk]

also

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyqR9XQHpiM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDfGBmbNbMw

[Lionel Tacchini]

You're NOT taking any of them to your desert island, let this be very clear.

Night and day.
I'll have both but I'd keep day if I had to choose.
--
Lionel Tacchini

[P]

> Which one do you prefer?

Wang in a heartbeat. She's the most gifted pianist of her generation by a mile: virtuosity to rival Hamelin, intelligence to rival Richter, presence to rival Rubinstein. If anyone is going to take the baton from La Martha, it is Ms. Wang.

-P

[Lionel Tacchini]

I tend to prefer Night for a more differentiated approach in the 1st
movement, more subtle in dynamics but the difference in sound makes it
difficult to decide how much the pianist is responsible for the latter
aspect. The slower tempo also makes the music more powerful in the march
like passages.

Tempo, however, makes the variations more interesting and the Finale
more incisive by Day although its nocturnal passage is very good in both
cases but still has more tension by Day (am I making any sense?).

In the end, and in spite of a few passages which may feel a little too
systematically frantic in the first movement, I give preference to Day
over Night here again. It's not subtle music, so the confrontation might
take a different turn elsewhere.
--
Lionel Tacchini

[Tony]

It sounds like you're putting together a rather hackneyed advertisement.

For all those superlative traits, I'm still waiting for her to fully identify with a composer. For example her 32/1, for all its gossamer spinning, sounds like Debussy.

Unlike Wang, HJ Lim plays this with a sense of middle-period Scriabin. Hello dynamics. Poetic playing too.

I've been listening to this piece a lot lately and wouldn't keep either one. Forced - Lim.

[JohnGavin]

Lim's weakness to my ears is her sound, which is too surface, lacking in the deep resonance so needed and provided in Scriabin by the likes of Sofro, GIlels and Richter.

In this area Yuja sounds a little bit better - but granted, neither plays Scriabin with that element of depth. Yuja Wang however, is constantly growing by leaps and bounds as a musician. I think she is completely aware of where she wants to go as a musician, and is not settling into a self-satisfied mode.

I don't know Lim as well, but I don't think she's going to reach the international level of fame that Yuja has, for whatever that is worth.

[Lionel Tacchini]

On 14.03.2015 15:42, JohnGavin wrote:
> I don't know Lim as well, but I don't think she's going to reach the
> international level of fame that Yuja has, for whatever that is
> worth.

Of course it would be very naive to think a level of fame can be
attributed to playing only.
--
Lionel Tacchini

[tomdeacon]

Tony <ezo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Saturday, March 14, 2015 at 1:08:53 PM UTC+1, P wrote:
>>> Which one do you prefer?
>>
>> Wang in a heartbeat. She's the most gifted pianist of her generation by
>> a mile: virtuosity to rival Hamelin, intelligence to rival Richter,
>> presence to rival Rubinstein. If anyone is going to take the baton from
>> La Martha, it is Ms. Wang.
>>
>> -P
>
> It sounds like you're putting together a rather hackneyed advertisement.
>
> For all those superlative traits, I'm still waiting for her to fully
> identify with a composer. For example her 32/1, for all its gossamer
> spinning, sounds like Debussy.

This is so subjective an assessment.

When he played Scriabin Rachmaninoff was severely criticized in Russia for
not having the right approach. And he was a friend and contemporary of the
composer!!!

Now, 100 years later, you claim to be able to identify when Scriabin's
music is being played "authentically". Some claim! SR needed your advice,
perhaps?

Or perhaps not.

Once the notes are on the page music is a free-for-all. Anything goes. The
only relevant questions are: Does it please your ear? Is the score
accurately performed?

The rest is simply impressionistic mush.

--
TD

[Lionel Tacchini]

On 14.03.2015 15:53, tomdeacon wrote:
> Tony <ezo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Saturday, March 14, 2015 at 1:08:53 PM UTC+1, P wrote:
>>>> Which one do you prefer?
>>>
>>> Wang in a heartbeat. She's the most gifted pianist of her
>>> generation by a mile: virtuosity to rival Hamelin, intelligence
>>> to rival Richter, presence to rival Rubinstein. If anyone is
>>> going to take the baton from La Martha, it is Ms. Wang.
>>>
>>> -P
>>
>> It sounds like you're putting together a rather hackneyed
>> advertisement.
>>
>> For all those superlative traits, I'm still waiting for her to
>> fully identify with a composer. For example her 32/1, for all its
>> gossamer spinning, sounds like Debussy.
>
> This is so subjective an assessment.

Which is what was asked. Preference is subjective.

> When he played Scriabin Rachmaninoff was severely criticized in
> Russia for not having the right approach. And he was a friend and
> contemporary of the composer!!!

I do not presume to understand my friends. When Liszt played Chopin I
wouldn't be surprised if it sounded a little more like Liszt anyway.
That "right approach" thing, however, is usually a bag of possibilities
with authenticity just one of the valid options.

Art is a lie. The original liar is most likely to tell the lie in a
convincing way since he has all the additional background which did not
make it onto the page but a better liar could make a different version
equally or even more convincing.

> Once the notes are on the page music is a free-for-all. Anything
> goes. The only relevant questions are: Does it please your ear? Is
> the score accurately performed?

I wouldn't even take the 2nd one into too much consideration. The option
of a better liar should be kept open.

> The rest is simply impressionistic mush.

Which also sells quite well.

--
Lionel Tacchini

[JohnGavin]

Perhaps that's true. But I think there are mysterious factors at play. Undefinable personal charisma is one (and that goes beyond fashion and looks, although those might play some part in it). It's the sum-total of technical, musical and extra-musical qualities.

[tomdeacon]

JohnGavin <dag...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Saturday, March 14, 2015 at 8:47:58 AM UTC-4, Tony wrote:
>> On Saturday, March 14, 2015 at 1:08:53 PM UTC+1, P wrote:
>>>> Which one do you prefer?
>>>
>>> Wang in a heartbeat. She's the most gifted pianist of her generation by
>>> a mile: virtuosity to rival Hamelin, intelligence to rival Richter,
>>> presence to rival Rubinstein. If anyone is going to take the baton from
>>> La Martha, it is Ms. Wang.
>>>
>>> -P
>>
>> It sounds like you're putting together a rather hackneyed advertisement.
>>
>> For all those superlative traits, I'm still waiting for her to fully
>> identify with a composer. For example her 32/1, for all its gossamer
>> spinning, sounds like Debussy.
>>
>> Unlike Wang, HJ Lim plays this with a sense of middle-period Scriabin.
>> Hello dynamics. Poetic playing too.
>>
>> I've been listening to this piece a lot lately and wouldn't keep either one. Forced - Lim.
>
> Lim's weakness to my ears is her sound, which is too surface, lacking in
> the deep resonance so needed and provided in Scriabin by the likes of
> Sofro, GIlels and Richter.

An extremely celebrated contemporary pianist (who shall remain nameless,
obviously) dislikes the first and last of these 3 pianists playing
Scriabin.

And this is a musician whose knowledge of Scriabin is extensive.

Gilels would, of course, be a different matter altogether.
--
TD

[Lionel Tacchini]

Network and its use are probably the most crucial parameters, promotion
will provide exposure, choice or repertoire will most likely make or
break too as I believe a blend of the up-to-date plus the bit of
personal spice is required to stand out just a little, maybe even
geography to be where the focus is set and then plain old luck to fetch
the best combination of the above.

All in all, I suppose the most famous two or three pianists on the
planet at any time is any one of the technically good enough to compete
while the selection is made by the other less or non-musical components.

We're talking about fame, not critical acclaim.
--
Lionel Tacchini - just guessing

[Oscar]

On Saturday, March 14, 2015 at 7:42:41 AM, JohnGavin wrote:
>
> Lim's weakness to my ears is her sound, which is too surface, lacking in the deep resonance so needed and provided in Scriabin
> by the likes of Sofro, GIlels and Richter.
>

> <snip>

Have you heard of Anna Malikova? She recorded the complete Scriabin Sonatas for Acousence (released in 2014), and played them on a Kawai.
http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=1526640

ACOUSENCE ACO-CD 12214 ℗ © 2014.
Stereo.
DDD. 24Bit Quad Sampling Ultra Definition Recording.
Recorded at Campus, Krefeld-Fichtenhain, Germany, March 18 & 19, 2012, February 21 & 22, 2013 and February 28 & March 1, 2014.
Recording producer: Ralf Kolbinger.
Recording & mixing engineer, editor: Ralf Koschnicke.
Publisher: Muzyka, 1981.
Artwork: Harald Priem, [trans-ponder.de] Büro Mannheim.
Piano technicians: Arimune Yamamoto, Tsuyoshi Yamazaki, Naoto Ichikawa.
Grand piano: SHIGERU KAWAI.

[Herman]

On Saturday, March 14, 2015 at 1:08:53 PM UTC+1, P wrote:

Thanks for regurgitating the hype.

Let's just see where Wang goes, rather than anoint her "in a heartbeat".

[Oscar]

On Saturday, March 14, 2015 at 10:25:23 AM, Herman wrote:
>
> Thanks for regurgitating the hype.
>
> Let's just see where Wang goes, rather than anoint her "in a heartbeat

YES SHE CAN!

[Tony]

That's amusing as I just included Rachmaninoff's op 11/8 on the mixed disc of Scriabin that I made for a friend.

I find the issue with this particular performance from Wang has more to do with her flattening the piece into a reverie. That just doesn't appeal to me.

[arri bachrach]

'night and day', you are the one......

AB

[arri bachrach]

the above is a very serious exaggeration.......

AB

[arri bachrach]

it would be very naive to think that you know what you are talking about:-)

AB

[arri bachrach]

thats telling them, TD. You are right again, (only this time)

AB

[dk]

Specific comments please. We're getting tired of your
off topic lecturing.

dk

[dk]

Specific comments please. What you like or dislike
about each performance.

dk

[dk]

On Saturday, March 14, 2015 at 5:47:58 AM UTC-7, Tony wrote:
> On Saturday, March 14, 2015 at 1:08:53 PM UTC+1, P wrote:
> > > Which one do you prefer?

> It sounds like you're putting together a rather hackneyed advertisement.

?!? Only asking for people's comments and opinions.

> For all those superlative traits, I'm still waiting for her to fully

Which her?

> identify with a composer. For example her 32/1, for all its gossamer
> spinning, sounds like Debussy.
>
> Unlike Wang, HJ Lim plays this with a sense of middle-period Scriabin.
> Hello dynamics. Poetic playing too.
>
> I've been listening to this piece a lot lately and wouldn't keep either
> one. Forced - Lim.

No one is forcing anything on you -- especially with all the recordings
out there by "name-your-favorite-Russian-pianist".

dk

[dk]

You are beginning to sound like me, Tom!
Please go see a doctor immediately. We
don't want our personalities to become
mixed and confused -- do we?

dk

[dk]

He is only quoting me ;-)

dk

[JohnGavin]

On Saturday, March 14, 2015 at 12:38:20 PM UTC-4, Oscar wrote:
> On Saturday, March 14, 2015 at 7:42:41 AM, JohnGavin wrote:
> >
> > Lim's weakness to my ears is her sound, which is too surface, lacking in the deep resonance so needed and provided in Scriabin
> > by the likes of Sofro, GIlels and Richter.
> >
> > <snip>
>
> Have you heard of Anna Malikova?

Yes indeed. She made an all-Soler CD about 10 years ago. Very nice, spirited, sparkling playing.
Also, the 24 Etudes of Chopin - good playing.

She recorded the complete Scriabin Sonatas for Acousence (released in 2014), and played them on a Kawai.

Thanks for the notice. I'd be interested in hearing these. Regarding Kawai Pianos, I have at least one other record of the Kawai Concert Grand (Esther Budiardjo's Godowsky Java Suite) and it sounds quite fine.

[arri bachrach]

>
> Lim's weakness to my ears is her sound, which is too surface, lacking in the deep resonance so needed and provided in Scriabin by the likes of Sofro, GIlels and Richter.
>
> In this area Yuja sounds a little bit better - but granted, neither plays Scriabin with that element of depth. Yuja Wang however, is constantly growing by leaps and bounds as a musician. I think she is completely aware of where she wants to go as a musician, and is not settling into a self-satisfied mode

Agree. neither produce a full, big sound. Yuja is just OK in the Scriabin, her Etude at times sounds a bit strained and chords are not always full sounding.
Lim's playing is on a lower level

AB

[JohnGavin]

The odd thing is that I can understand the criticisms, for instance that Wang's Scriabin is too sweet, or smooth, Debussy-like, and yet can enjoy it on its own terms - by the playing of a very gifted, brilliant pianist in the process of maturing.

Its a kind of a Zen philosophy of appreciating what IS rather than an idea of what should be.
Yuja is always highly enjoyable to watch and listen to.

[dk]

They're OK.
Nothing close to Sofronitsky, Zhukov, Bashkirov or Margulis.

dk

[Lionel Tacchini]

There was that story of an ageing lady making recordings who got very
famous very quick on the internet and in the press a few years back. The
recordings were not at all bad but not the kind of things leading to
that sort of fame unless there had been something more.

Must have been the special case of the non performing artist suddenly
discovered, just like there also was that other guy who wouldn't record.
He was no pianist though, but did everything so slow people thought he
was some Buddha or the like.

--
Lionel Tacchini

[Gerard]

"JohnGavin" wrote in message
news:4028e418-66a7-460d...@googlegroups.com...

On Saturday, March 14, 2015 at 12:38:20 PM UTC-4, Oscar wrote:
> On Saturday, March 14, 2015 at 7:42:41 AM, JohnGavin wrote:
> >
> > Lim's weakness to my ears is her sound, which is too surface, lacking in
> > the deep resonance so needed and provided in Scriabin
> > by the likes of Sofro, GIlels and Richter.
> >
> > <snip>
>
> Have you heard of Anna Malikova?

Yes indeed. She made an all-Soler CD about 10 years ago. Very nice,
spirited, sparkling playing.
Also, the 24 Etudes of Chopin - good playing.

======================

Also the Saint-Saëns piano concerti.
Also Prokofiev piano music (like 10 Pieces from Romeo and Juliet).

[Lionel Tacchini]

On 14.03.2015 19:11, JohnGavin wrote:
> The odd thing is that I can understand the criticisms, for instance
> that Wang's Scriabin is too sweet, or smooth, Debussy-like, and yet
> can enjoy it on its own terms

That's what I thought too. I like Debussy.
--
Lionel Tacchini

[dk]

On Saturday, March 14, 2015 at 11:09:28 AM UTC-7, arri bachrach wrote:
> >
> Lim's weakness to my ears is her sound, which is too surface,
> lacking in the deep resonance so needed and provided in Scriabin

> by the likes of Sofro, Gilels and Richter.

I didn't ask for comparisons against pianists long dead.

> In this area Yuja sounds a little bit better - but granted, neither
> plays Scriabin with that element of depth. Yuja Wang however, is
> constantly growing by leaps and bounds as a musician. I think she
> is completely aware of where she wants to go as a musician, and is

> not settling into a self-satisfied mode.

How would one know? Do you read her mind? As far as one can
tell she wants to go all the way to the bank and model shoes
and fashion for classical music audiences.

> Agree. neither produce a full, big sound. Yuja is just OK
> in the Scriabin, her Etude at times sounds a bit strained
> and chords are not always full sounding.

What Etude ?!? The links I sent were to the Poeme op. 32 no. 1.

dk

[Herman]

On Saturday, March 14, 2015 at 7:17:55 PM UTC+1, dk wrote:


>
> What Etude ?!? The links I sent were to the Poeme op. 32 no. 1.
>
> dk

That's what you think. Why don't you click your own links?

The first Wang link begins with one of the Op elevenses.

[JohnGavin]

On Saturday, March 14, 2015 at 2:17:55 PM UTC-4, dk wrote:
> On Saturday, March 14, 2015 at 11:09:28 AM UTC-7, arri bachrach wrote:
> > >
> > Lim's weakness to my ears is her sound, which is too surface,
> > lacking in the deep resonance so needed and provided in Scriabin
> > by the likes of Sofro, Gilels and Richter.
>
> I didn't ask for comparisons against pianists long dead.
>

The shallow tone became evident on its own - the comparisons were only to illustrate the essential quality of deep sonority in much Russian repertoire.

Also, the very premise of the thread IS comparison :)

> > In this area Yuja sounds a little bit better - but granted, neither
> > plays Scriabin with that element of depth. Yuja Wang however, is
> > constantly growing by leaps and bounds as a musician. I think she
> > is completely aware of where she wants to go as a musician, and is
> > not settling into a self-satisfied mode.
>
> How would one know? Do you read her mind?

I can feel it in performances like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HC0_DI2hiPM

3 Romances for Violin and Piano by Schumann with Joshua Bell.

Also in the 3 Brahms Violin Sonatas with Leonidas Kavakos and that wonderful recital from Verbier with cellist Gauthier Capucon.

In this age of YouTube and Medici TV you can follow her playing for the last 10 years - and feel her musical progress.

As far as one can
> tell she wants to go all the way to the bank and model shoes
> and fashion for classical music audiences.

That's way too negative a take for me, but on the other I can't prove you to be wrong.

>
> > Agree. neither produce a full, big sound. Yuja is just OK
> > in the Scriabin, her Etude at times sounds a bit strained
> > and chords are not always full sounding.
>
> What Etude ?!? The links I sent were to the Poeme op. 32 no. 1.
>
> dk

The above is from Arri, but the Yuja clip you referenced has an Etude as well as the Poeme in it.

[Herman]

On Saturday, March 14, 2015 at 7:45:14 PM UTC+1, JohnGavin wrote:

>
> In this age of YouTube and Medici TV you can follow her playing for the last 10 years - and feel her musical progress.
>

I totally agree. She's gotten much better.

[dk]

> The above is from Arri, but the Yuja clip you referenced has
> an Etude as well as the Poeme in it.

The clip I sent had the precise start time embedded in it, 9:55.

dk

[dk]

Of course. And so have Lim and other young pianists,
with the possible exception of Ingolf Wunder who is
stuck in kindergarten.

dk

[dk]

The link I sent had the precise start embedded in it, 9:55.
You must be using a browser that mangles the URLs. Internet
Explorer ?!?

[dk]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbKXB7xqnCI?t=9m55s

[graham]

IE, Chrome and Firefox ignore that and take one to the beginning.
Graham

--
"Excess on occasion is exhilarating.
It prevents moderation from acquiring
the deadening effect of habit."
W. Somerset Maugham

[hvid...@gmail.com]

On Saturday, March 14, 2015 at 4:07:32 AM UTC-4, dk wrote:
> Which one do you prefer?
>

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbKXB7xqnCI?t=9m55s
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15f43ZOQK6Y
>
> dk

I thought Lim had some struggle with the tempo in the concerto Mov I. She adapted but it wasn't really her own.

[Tony]

My response was to P, not you, Dan. Not sure why on your screen it didn't quote his text.

[Tony]

On Saturday, March 14, 2015 at 7:02:03 PM UTC+1, dk wrote:
>
> You are beginning to sound like me, Tom!

> dk

Frankly I often feel you guys are the same person :)

[Tony]

Vitaly Margulis? Where are his recordings available?

[Lionel Tacchini]

On 14.03.2015 20:17, graham wrote:
> On 14/03/2015 12:53 PM, dk wrote:

>> The link I sent had the precise start embedded in it, 9:55.
>> You must be using a browser that mangles the URLs. Internet
>> Explorer ?!?
>>
> IE, Chrome and Firefox ignore that and take one to the beginning.
> Graham
>

This should work:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=cbKXB7xqnCI#t=595

--
Lionel Tacchini

[dk]

> Vitaly Margulis? Where are his recordings available?

http://www.amazon.de/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1/276-2517981-7363905?__mk_de_DE=%C3%85M%C3%85%C5%BD%C3%95%C3%91&url=search-alias%3Dpopular&field-keywords=margulis&sprefix=margulis%2Cpopular

[Tony]

Thanks! Will try to hear some.

[dk]

On Saturday, March 14, 2015 at 11:11:43 AM UTC-7, JohnGavin wrote:
> On Saturday, March 14, 2015 at 1:34:55 PM UTC-4, Oscar wrote:
> > On Saturday, March 14, 2015 at 10:25:23 AM, Herman wrote:
> > >
> > > Thanks for regurgitating the hype.
> > >
> > > Let's just see where Wang goes, rather than anoint
> > > her "in a heartbeat
> >
> > YES SHE CAN!
>
> The odd thing is that I can understand the criticisms,

Why is that odd?

> for instance that Wang's Scriabin is too sweet, or smooth,
> Debussy-like, and yet can enjoy it on its own terms - by
> the playing of a very gifted, brilliant pianist in the
> process of maturing.
>
> Its a kind of a Zen philosophy of appreciating what IS
> rather than an idea of what should be.

Unfortunately, only turtles can fully live that philosophy.
Even cats can dream of better things in life.

> Yuja is always highly enjoyable to watch and listen to.

Points well takes, but the real question is: whould she
sound as enjoyable if one did not watch and did not know
who she was? Methinks me not.

dk

[dk]

On Saturday, March 14, 2015 at 12:17:42 PM UTC-7, graham wrote:
> On 14/03/2015 12:53 PM, dk wrote:
> > On Saturday, March 14, 2015 at 11:39:45 AM UTC-7, Herman wrote:
> >> On Saturday, March 14, 2015 at 7:17:55 PM UTC+1, dk wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>
> >>> What Etude ?!? The links I sent were to the Poeme op. 32 no. 1.
> >>>
> >>> dk
> >>
> >> That's what you think. Why don't you click your own links?
> >>
> >> The first Wang link begins with one of the Op elevenses.
> >
> > The link I sent had the precise start embedded in it, 9:55.
> > You must be using a browser that mangles the URLs. Internet
> > Explorer ?!?
> >
> IE, Chrome and Firefox ignore that and take one to the beginning.
> Graham

Use Firefox! ;-)

dk

[graham]

I do and your link didn't work. Tacchini's did.

[P]

>> Yuja is always highly enjoyable to watch and listen to.

>Points well takes, but the real question is: whould she
sound as enjoyable if one did not watch and did not know
who she was? Methinks me not.

Come on guys, this is beyond pathetic. Her appearance is completely irrelevant to her playing; if anything, it hinders her ability to be taken seriously. Here we have a group of professional musicians, recording engineers, former executives at major record labels, and otherwise some of the most knowledgeable connoisseurs of classical music in the world, and whenever this highly talented, consummate musician comes up for discussion, you start salivating and cat calling like a bunch of middle-schoolers. (This discussion so far isn't a tenth as bad as some other threads on this board).

I'd love to have a discussion about Yuja Wang the musician, without any reference to legs or shoes. I stand by my earlier praise.

-P

[Frank Berger]

Fine. But can we have a separate discussion about her looks?

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
http://www.avast.com

[abras...@gmail.com]

On Saturday, March 14, 2015 at 1:07:32 AM UTC-7, dk wrote:
> Which one do you prefer?
>

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbKXB7xqnCI?t=9m55s
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15f43ZOQK6Y
>
> dk

Are these the only two living pianists worth comparing? Why did dk pick these two, I wonder? Wasn't dk the one who once upon a time in a galaxy far away predicted that Naida Cole would be the future of classical piano? And he swore it had nothing at all to do with her looks http://tinyurl.com/lcs7cx6

[dk]

On Sunday, March 15, 2015 at 4:03:37 PM UTC-7, abras...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, March 14, 2015 at 1:07:32 AM UTC-7, dk wrote:
> > Which one do you prefer?
> >
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbKXB7xqnCI?t=9m55s
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15f43ZOQK6Y
>

> Are these the only two living pianists worth comparing?
> Why did dk pick these two, I wonder?

Simply because I happened to listen to them back to back
at the time.

> Wasn't dk the one who once upon a time in a galaxy far
> away predicted that Naida Cole would be the future of
> classical piano?

And she decided to go medical school instead. How does
this have anything to do with my crystal ball? All her
recordings are exemplary and stand comparison with any
other performances of the same works.

> And he swore it had nothing at all to do with her
> looks http://tinyurl.com/lcs7cx6

Which I don't like at all BTW. In case anyone would
like to know, I like freckled red-haired Eastern
European Jewish girls with green eyes. None of the
current top pianists qualify unfortunately ... 8-((

dk

[dk]

On Sunday, March 15, 2015 at 3:19:04 PM UTC-7, Frank Berger wrote:
> On 3/15/2015 6:04 PM, P wrote:
> >>> Yuja is always highly enjoyable to watch and listen to.
> >
> >> Points well takes, but the real question is: whould she
> > sound as enjoyable if one did not watch and did not know
> > who she was? Methinks me not.
> >
> > Come on guys, this is beyond pathetic. Her appearance is completely irrelevant to her playing; if anything, it hinders her ability to be taken seriously. Here we have a group of professional musicians, recording engineers, former executives at major record labels, and otherwise some of the most knowledgeable connoisseurs of classical music in the world, and whenever this highly talented, consummate musician comes up for discussion, you start salivating and cat calling like a bunch of middle-schoolers. (This discussion so far isn't a tenth as bad as some other threads on this board).
> >
> > I'd love to have a discussion about Yuja Wang the musician, without any reference to legs or shoes. I stand by my earlier praise.
>

> Fine. But can we have a separate discussion about her looks?

You are welcome to start the thread ;-)

dk

[Lionel Tacchini]

On 16.03.2015 04:34, dk wrote:
> Which I don't like at all BTW. In case anyone would
> like to know, I like freckled red-haired Eastern
> European Jewish girls with green eyes. None of the
> current top pianists qualify unfortunately ... 8-((

We need to get one of those blue martian girls on a piano.

--
Lionel Tacchini

[Frank Berger]

Nah. That would be OT and I've never started an OT thread.

[Frank Berger]

But it's the Martian men that are all curvy.

[Lionel Tacchini]

On 16.03.2015 11:02, Frank Berger wrote:
>>>> I'd love to have a discussion about Yuja Wang the musician, without
>>>> any reference to legs or shoes. I stand by my earlier praise.
>>>
>>> Fine. But can we have a separate discussion about her looks?
>>
>> You are welcome to start the thread ;-)

>

> Nah. That would be OT and I've never started an OT thread.

It's not OT if it helps sell recordings.
Besides, videos are recordings too.
People look at them.
No excuses.
--
Lionel Tacchini

[Ricardo Jimenez]

On Sun, 15 Mar 2015 20:34:23 -0700 (PDT), dk <dan....@gmail.com>
wrote:

>> Are these the only two living pianists worth comparing?
>> Why did dk pick these two, I wonder?
>
>Simply because I happened to listen to them back to back
>at the time.

My question is why are dk and other prolific posters here so obsessed
with piano recordings when there are so many more interesting things
to talk about. Any time I try to bring up opera DVD/BD recordings,
in which there is currently a golden age, the silence is usually
deafening. (Exception: An recent Elektra thread caused some mild
interest.) You can now watch stuff like La Wally and Rienzi and
countless previously forgotten baroque masterpieces in your living
room and you guys can't stop arguing about who does the best D960
while wearing a tight dress or short pants.

[Christopher Webber]

On 16/03/2015 13:58, Ricardo Jimenez wrote:
> You can now watch stuff like La Wally and Rienzi and
> countless previously forgotten baroque masterpieces in your living
> room and you guys can't stop arguing about who does the best D960
> while wearing a tight dress or short pants.

As a reviewer lucky enough to be paid to cover such DVDs and Blu-rays I
have to say that I completely understand why they don't raise anyone's
temperature much. Many of them are poor, sonically; or - worse - suffer
from vocal and orchestral ambiences dislocated from the stage picture.

The majority are badly shot by fussy video directors aiming to prove
themselves master film-makers, irrespective of the demands of the
operatic medium. They really do not convey very much of "the
experience". For me, they are "bread and butter" rather than artistic
experience.

Honestly, of all the DVDs I've covered over the last year only one - the
Hanneke production of 'Cosí fan tutte' - struck me as a "keeper". I
think I've disposed of all the rest, frankly. Once seen, immediately
forgotten.

So with a very few exceptions, dim sound-only recordings of Antonina
Nezhdanova (substitute a singer of your choice!) have in my opinion
infinitely more magic than these - generally uninspiring - modern video
products. I completely understand the pianophiles - though, luckily for
me, perhaps, I don't share their passion!

[Frank Berger]

All of which has next to nothing to do with the apparent lack of
interest in discussing opera. Maybe, just maybe, opera is less popular
among RMCR participants than those of RMCO.

[Ricardo Jimenez]

Hmm, too bad you don't enjoy your job. Here is a selection of what I
have recently watched. I can't tell ahead of time so maybe I am only
batting 400. But, in general, there is plenty to enjoy in what is
being released and I certainly am learning something about the history
of opera.

Il Barbiere di Siviglia - from Teatro Regio di Parma, 2011 - I have
never heard a better sounding opera recording (BD version).

Maskerade - Royal Danish Orchestra - I am among those who are driven
crazy by the video constantly switching between orchestra and stage.
Sound is no good also. The older DVD, in German, from the Bregenzer
Festspiele is better, I think, even though it's in 4:3 aspect. Sound
is more vivid and we are treated to a real masquerade with great
costumes in the final act instead of the banal acrobats in the Danish
version.

Grétry's Guillaume Tell - Very light weight but fun with good scenery

Vinci's La Partenope - Better music than the Handel version. Great
sound, costumes and scenery in imitation of Baroque performance
practice.

Humperdinck's Konigskinder - The presence of Kaufmann doesn't save
this one from Zurich - I couldn't keep awake. I might watch a non
regietheater one if it becomes available.

Offenbach's Ritter Blaubart - A reissue of the Walter Felsenstein
studio production, from 1973. If course it doesn't sound great but I
loved every minute.

[Lionel Tacchini]

On 16.03.2015 14:58, Ricardo Jimenez wrote:
> Any time I try to bring up opera DVD/BD recordings,
> in which there is currently a golden age, the silence is usually
> deafening.

That's because opera is not music. It used to have its own group, by the
way, for pertinent reasons.

--
Lionel Tacchini

[JohnGavin]

I feel a need to clear up the comment about enjoying watching and hearing Yuja Wnag. It wasn't meant in any sort of salacious way. I have a thing about liking soloists who perform in a sort of "normal" way, - without making faces or weird body movements - I equally enjoy watching Hamelin, Michelangeli and others for the same reason - it's just a thing about economy of motion and expression through the fingers only.

[graham]

Why not give vent to your passion on the opera group?
Graham
--
People are wrong when they say opera is not what it used
to be.
It is what it used to be. That is what's wrong with it.
Noel Coward

[graham]

I feel the same way and detest the way that the editors insist on
switching the view every few seconds, especially to the pianist's face
just when the finger work gets really interesting.
Graham

[John Wiser]

"graham" <gst...@shaw.ca> wrote in message news:QECNw.28110$Lw2....@fx30.iad...

Because the opera group is moribund,
that's why not.
After some years of being
a seething bucket of scorpions,
it appears to have stung itself to death.

jdw

[Lionel Tacchini]

On 16.03.2015 16:34, graham wrote:
> I feel the same way and detest the way that the editors insist on
> switching the view every few seconds, especially to the pianist's face
> just when the finger work gets really interesting.

It's a cunning plan to get people frustrated enough so they'll dream to
see her live from the first row.

--
Lionel Tacchini

[graham]

So we can hope that they don't move here!
Graham

--

[Lionel Tacchini]

On 16.03.2015 17:22, graham wrote:
>>> Why not give vent to your passion on the opera group?
>>
>> Because the opera group is moribund,
>> that's why not.
>> After some years of being
>> a seething bucket of scorpions,
>> it appears to have stung itself to death.
>>

> So we can hope that they don't move here!

The piano threads were started as a protective measure to keep them away.

--
Lionel Tacchini

[John Wiser]

"Lionel Tacchini" <lionel....@arcor.de> wrote in message
news:me707m$g29$1...@gwaiyur.mb-net.net...

In fact, anything which deals with real music will do the trick.
A few sturdy souls who survived the opera group implosion
are already here and in good standing. No names no pack drill.

jdw

[tomdeacon]

We all know who they are. Officially "nonames".

--
TD

[tomdeacon]

Quelle surprise!


--
TD

[Christopher Webber]

On 16/03/2015 15:08, Ricardo Jimenez wrote:
> Hmm, too bad you don't enjoy your job.

I love my job(s), thank you. And I'm privileged to be paid to do what I
enjoy. But (unlike the CDs, books and live performances I cover) these
opera DVDs are really in one eye and ear, and out the other.

You mention the Felsenstein 'Bluebeard', which I agree is a staggering
piece of work - my complete Felsenstein box is a cherished possession.
But it is a *film*, not a video: Felsenstein reworked it for the small
screen, which is what makes it a work of art, rather than a simulation
of one.

Your suggestion that the bland, predictable and flimsy score of Vinci's
'Partenope' is "better music" than Handel's is a curious one! The DVD of
it makes it vaguely tolerable by giving us some pretty costumes to look
at, but that's about all that can be said for the wretched thing. It's
non-musical opera for the terminally bored.

There's not much wrong with the Zürich 'Königskinder' production, though
the video directing is beyond dreadful. But I'd much rather be listening
to a CD performance of this expansive masterpiece (I suggest Weigle on
Ohms, which is matchless) than watching a poor DVD on a home screen.
It's a great example of what I'm talking about.

[Ricardo Jimenez]

I am sure there is plenty we agree and disagree about. I will try the
Haneke Cosi. I was bored by the recent Glyndebourne version, even
though it had good reviews. Why don't you try your opera reviews out
here before your review officially appears (where do they appear?).
The best of the recently made opera "films" I've seen was the
"Hunter's Bride" (a renamed Der Freischütz). I think it was up to the
Felsenstein standard.

[Oscar]

On Monday, March 16, 2015 at 7:14:18 AM, Christopher Webber wrote:
>
> Honestly, of all the DVDs I've covered over the last year only one - the
> Hanneke production of 'Cosí fan tutte' - struck me as a "keeper". I
> think I've disposed of all the rest, frankly. Once seen, immediately
> forgotten.

WOW, Patrice Chéreau's swan song production of Strauss's Elektra, stated at Aix-en-Provence with Evelyn Herlitzius in the title role, was "once seen, immediately forgotten"?? A mind is a terrible thing to waste.

Presto Classical: http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Bel%2BAir%2BClassiques/BAC110
VIDEO: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxPrtsOtyUg


From The New Yorker, Aug.12-19,2013 edition:

<< Chéreau's Elektra in Aix

"Dance of Death"
by Alex Ross

A mother and daughter are sitting on rough-hewn blocks of white stone, such as one might find on the estate of a wealthy modern family that aspires to classical grandeur. Their backs are turned to each other, their heads are bowed. Some years ago, a terrible crime was committed in the house. The mother, dressed in black, with her hair cut short, avoids mention of her dead husband but says that she is suffering from nightmares—“I have no good nights”—and asks whether anything can be done to stop the dreams, because there is a remedy for everything. In a low voice, she speaks of a nameless something that is eating away at her, like moths in old fabric. The daughter, dressed in tattered workout clothes, is a knot of rage and hate, her mind fixated on the crime. After that fearful plea for help, there is a moment of tenderness between the two, but when the daughter speaks of her absent brother the atmosphere freezes again. The mother, her voice now coolly imperious, will not hear of it. She simply wishes to know the cure for dreaming. The daughter, her eyes blazing, her arms flung down in a gymnast's stance, declares that only when her brother comes home, swinging an axe, will the dreams end. Aghast, the mother retreats, refusing the assistance of her cowed, clinging servants.

This is the great scene between Electra and Clytemnestra in Richard Strauss’s Elektra, as staged by Patrice Chéreau, at the Aix-en-Provence Festival, in July. Evelyn Herlitzius played the daughter, Waltraud Meier the mother; Esa-Pekka Salonen conducted the Orchestre de Paris. Chéreau has pulled off many feats in his opera-directing career—notably, his monumental 1976 production of the Ring, at Bayreuth, and his glamorous and sordid presentation of the three-act version of Berg’s Lulu, in 1979. His work finally reached New York in 2009, when the Met mounted his stark, raw staging of Janáček’s From the House of the Dead. Yet this Elektra, which can currently be seen on the Arte channel’s Web site and will arrive at the Met in 2016, occupies a special place in Chéreau’s output, because his signature attention to nuances of character humanizes a masterpiece that often seems grimly relentless. Clytemnestra has been killed thousands of times over the millennia; here, her death registers as a shock, because we have come to see her not as a monster but as a woman shadowed by a monstrous deed.

One issue with Elektra is that, for all its splendid ferocity, it lacks a degree of internal tension. The libretto, derived from Hugo von Hofmannsthal's adaptation of Sophocles, has a whiff of Grand Guignol, and the score hammers away indiscriminately at dissonances and disconnected triads. In Aix, Salonen, who has replaced Pierre Boulez as Chéreau's chief musical collaborator, restored dynamic balance. In the opening bars, a bass-clarinet note had equal weight with the titanic D-major chord that sets the work in motion. Frail lyricism in the violins, flickering chords in the violas, spidery cadenzas in the flute—all came through clearly, instead of being lost in the melee. So, too, did the voices. Here was an Elektra you could listen to without flinching.

The action is placed more or less in the present; the sets, by Richard Peduzzi, suggest the exterior of a grand bourgeois home, though nothing is too specific. We have no idea whether the late Agamemnon was a king, a president, or a C.E.O. What matters, as Chéreau said in an interview, is that this well-to-do household has been “completely disordered” by the crime. Clytemnestra is attempting total repression. Orestes, when he arrives, is a blank-faced instrument of violence; Mikhail Petrenko plays him as a block of basso ice. Chrysothemis, sung with opulent, room-filling tone by Adrianne Pieczonka, seems the most human, but there is an obliviousness in her determination to go on living. Only Electra feels the full extent of the trauma.

Herlitzius, a German soprano who has been singing Wagnerian roles in Europe since the nineties, gave a tremendous, never-to-be-forgotten account of the title role. She has the vocal power to make herself heard above Strauss’s one-hundred-eleven-piece orchestra, and though a few of her high Bs and Cs went astray, her pitches usually hit the mark. A riveting physical performer, she flung her body about with a dancer’s abandon. What came through, above all, was the character’s desperate urge to make her family to confront the truth. Yet Electra has no idea what she is getting into: neither she nor anyone around her is prepared for the aftermath of vengeance.

Meier, as Clytemnestra, displayed eerie restraint, declining all opportunities to chew the scenery. Admittedly, such chewing can give pleasure, especially when executed by a legendary singer in a late-career, to-hell-with-it phase. One of the most thrilling things I’ve seen in a theatre was Leonie Rysanek’s turn as Clytemnestra at the Met, in 1994; the line “Lichter! Mehr Lichter!”—“Lights! More lights!”—was hollered with such delirious intensity that it’s a wonder some stagehand didn’t switch on the house lights in a fright. No such hysterics were seen in Aix; indeed, the “Lichter!” line was cut. (It appears in the stage directions, though not in the vocal part.) Passages that are routinely barked, or rasped, were sung straight out, with acute expression. There was no witchy cackling at the false report of Orestes’s death. What affected me most was the sense that Meier’s Clytemnestra is not only scared of her daughter but also worried about her. It is not just for her own sake that she wants the subject of the murder dropped.

As in other Chéreau productions, the smaller parts received exacting attention. Aegisthus, the stepfather, was not the usual grotesque neurotic; Tom Randle made him disconcertingly stylish. Roberta Alexander found glowing sympathy in the Fifth Maid, the one who takes Electra’s side. Donald McIntyre, Chéreau’s Wotan in 1976, embodied an otherworldly old servant, and the eighty-nine-year-old Franz Mazura, Dr. Schön in the director’s Lulu, glowered as Orestes’s guardian. Silent movements registered as strongly as sung lines. When Orestes kills Clytemnestra, the servants’ helpless stares show that the act is anything but cathartic: a new horror has been piled upon the old. Electra’s dance of triumph abruptly stops, although she does not fall dead, as the libretto demands. And in the final bars, with the orchestra thundering the blackest C-major chords in history, Orestes walks from the back of the stage to a door on the left, like Death out for an evening stroll. >>

[Christopher Webber]

On 16/03/2015 18:45, Ricardo Jimenez wrote:
> Why don't you try your opera reviews out
> here before your review officially appears (where do they appear?).

Because the copyright's with Opera Magazine, Ricardo (I've written for
Opera Now and other journals too). Some of my longer, operatic programme
notes and academic lectures are up on Academia.edu, but not of course
any copyright articles.

[Christopher Webber]

On 16/03/2015 21:52, Oscar wrote:
> WOW, Patrice Chéreau's swan song production of Strauss's Elektra, stated at Aix-en-Provence with Evelyn Herlitzius in the title role, was "once seen, immediately forgotten"?? A mind is a terrible thing to waste.

A perfect example of a fine production completely ruined by fussy, ADHD
camera-work, by a video director determined to put his own stamp on the
thing. Utterly outrageous. Chereau would be turning in his grave.

The piece, in any case, has to be experienced full-on in the theatre, or
concert hall; not in the comfort of home.

[Tony]

On Monday, March 16, 2015 at 10:52:12 PM UTC+1, Oscar wrote:
> On Monday, March 16, 2015 at 7:14:18 AM, Christopher Webber wrote:
> >
> > Honestly, of all the DVDs I've covered over the last year only one - the
> > Hanneke production of 'Cosí fan tutte' - struck me as a "keeper". I
> > think I've disposed of all the rest, frankly. Once seen, immediately
> > forgotten.
>
> WOW, Patrice Chéreau's swan song production of Strauss's Elektra, stated at Aix-en-Provence with Evelyn Herlitzius in the title role, was "once seen, immediately forgotten"?? A mind is a terrible thing to waste.
>

I heard Evelyn Herlitzius sing the title role a few years ago in Amsterdam and she was marvellous.

[Oscar]

On Monday, March 16, 2015 at 4:05:21 PM, Tony wrote:
>
> > WOW, Patrice Chéreau's swan song production of Strauss's Elektra, stated at Aix-en-Provence
> > with Evelyn Herlitzius in the title role, was "once seen, immediately forgotten"?? A mind is a
> > terrible thing to waste.
>
> I heard Evelyn Herlitzius sing the title role a few years ago in Amsterdam and she was marvellous.

Lucky! She's pretty great, and already has three recordings of the role to her credit (2 CD, one DVD/BD, all released within year or so of each other). I've have only the BD.

[dk]

On Saturday, March 14, 2015 at 1:07:32 AM UTC-7, dk wrote:
> Which one do you prefer?
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbKXB7xqnCI?t=9m55s
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15f43ZOQK6Y

How about these?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRwyNL0zZjk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnAQIRqvVYQ

dk

[Lionel Tacchini]

On 16.03.2015 23:14, Christopher Webber wrote:
> The piece, in any case, has to be experienced full-on in the theatre, or
> concert hall; not in the comfort of home.

Does that mean there are more murdering crazies in the room too, waiting
to fall on you upon a whim?

--
Lionel Tacchini - definitely not going

[O]

In article
<1869812230448218672.8453...@news.individual.net>,

Have you, or have you not, ever been a card carrying member of the
opera group?

-Owen, Committee on Un-Opera Group Activities.

[dk]

Opera group members don't carry cards!
They introduce themselves with ariettas!

dk