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Alan M Watkins
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Alan Hayward
May 2, 2017, 5:26:36 PM5/2/17
to
A post to a private Google group reports that Alan Watkins died last October from a massive heart attack. Older RMCR contributors and readers will remember Mr Watkins as one of the more bizarre posters to this NG. Whatever we thought of some of his remarkable flights of fancy, he did have a considerable knowledge of music and performers and news of his passing is passed on with sadness.
mswd...@gmail.com
May 2, 2017, 5:58:23 PM5/2/17
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He was real? I thought there was doubt about much of what he said and his many novel biographical claims (playing under Svetlanov, IIRC), and then he disappeared right when the Hatto scandal broke, leading some to think he was an alter ego of Barrington-Coupe.
christian....@gmail.com
May 2, 2017, 11:06:42 PM5/2/17
to
I must admit this was my most immediate reaction too. He lived a remarkable life - in attendance at Richter's Rach-3, Hatto's funeral, Neil Armstrong's lunar walk, and the premiere of Beethoven's 9th symphony.
Andrew Clarke
May 3, 2017, 2:14:48 AM5/3/17
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On Wednesday, May 3, 2017 at 1:06:42 PM UTC+10, christian....@gmail.com wrote:
> I must admit this was my most immediate reaction too. He lived a remarkable life - in attendance at Richter's Rach-3, Hatto's funeral, Neil Armstrong's lunar walk, and the premiere of Beethoven's 9th symphony.
The Alan M. Watkins who lived in Burnham on Crouch and who wrote about buses - and latterly hedgehogs - was certainly real, certainly literate and certainly warmly appreciated by those who shared his interests. Whether he was one and the same person as the man who wrote with equal skill about Czech music and musicians - apart from the obvious shaggy dog stories - is still IMHO very much open to question.
> I must admit this was my most immediate reaction too. He lived a remarkable life - in attendance at Richter's Rach-3, Hatto's funeral, Neil Armstrong's lunar walk, and the premiere of Beethoven's 9th symphony.
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2005/July05/Krombholc.htm
It's noticeable that none of the Friends listed on this Alan's website are musicians.
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
Alan Hayward
May 3, 2017, 6:56:23 AM5/3/17
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On Wednesday, 3 May 2017 07:14:48 UTC+1, Andrew Clarke wrote:
"Whether he was one and the same person as the man who wrote with equal skill about Czech music and musicians - apart from the obvious shaggy dog stories - is still IMHO very much open to question."
I had wondered about this for a long time but concluded that they were one and the same person. The style of writing was the same, the email address was the same as was the IP address in the days when Mr Watkins used to post to this NG. I'm not at all surprised that none of his friends were musicians, I doubt that he knew any!
"Whether he was one and the same person as the man who wrote with equal skill about Czech music and musicians - apart from the obvious shaggy dog stories - is still IMHO very much open to question."
O
May 3, 2017, 9:02:03 AM5/3/17
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In article <d15773ee-3699-48d8...@googlegroups.com>,
Rest In Peace -- Old Chap! Now you'll finally be able to play tympani
on the Rach 3 with Richter.
-Owen
on the Rach 3 with Richter.
-Owen
Andrew Clarke
May 3, 2017, 9:37:50 AM5/3/17
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On Wednesday, May 3, 2017 at 8:56:23 PM UTC+10, Alan Hayward wrote:
> I had wondered about this for a long time but concluded that they were one and the same person. The style of writing was the same, the email address was the same as was the IP address in the days when Mr Watkins used to post to this NG. I'm not at all surprised that none of his friends were musicians, I doubt that he knew any!
Here is Alan's obituary in the local Burnham newspaper,
> I had wondered about this for a long time but concluded that they were one and the same person. The style of writing was the same, the email address was the same as was the IP address in the days when Mr Watkins used to post to this NG. I'm not at all surprised that none of his friends were musicians, I doubt that he knew any!
<http://www.maldonandburnhamstandard.co.uk/news/14951982.Tributes_paid_to_former_journalist_who_made_Burnham_his_home/>
where it's revealed that he was a journalist with a couple of national newspapers, including The Sun. His chief claim to fame was a campaign for recognition that CJD and Mad Cow Disease were related, in the face of fierce opposition from the health authorities of the day. This explains why a post vehemently making the same point appeared under the name of one of Alan's aliases many years ago: sadly I can't find it at present. It also explains why he wrote so well.
I think he probably did know musicians - he wrote about music far too well for anyone unacquainted with their art - although a career beginning in Essex local journalism would hardly leave any time for scholarships in Czechoslovakia or fleeing that unhappy country in 1968 with an American wife. But he, or a collaborator, knew enough about Martinu to publish notes about him:
<http://katalog.martinu.cz/authorities/31850#?id=2Z_8MXTrSVezPVbQeQUZzg&pageSize=10&sorting=relevance>
But why would someone so familiar with the Czech repertoire - not to mention tympani orchestral parts - want to publish under the name of an English journalist with an interest in buses? Were there political reasons I wonder? I doubt we'll ever know.
Meanwhile, Alan's name and address have appeared in strange places, e.g.
<http://business-portal.co.uk/eng/alan-m-watkins-981404#.WQnZ88YlGUm>
When you search on the phone number given in this site, you get this:
http://business-portal.co.uk/eng/bt-intranet-services-802569#.WQna9cYlGUm
with Alan Lawson given as a contact.
This company certainly exists:
http://gb.b2brnaut.com/bt_intranet_services
No Alan Watkins of course, but Alan Lawson is still there. I wonder what on earth was going on?
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
nmsz...@gmail.com
May 3, 2017, 9:57:17 AM5/3/17
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On Wednesday, May 3, 2017 at 9:37:50 AM UTC-4, Andrew Clarke wrote:
> No Alan Watkins of course, but Alan Lawson is still there. I wonder what on earth was going on?
>
I wonder most if he would have aided groundhogs in addition to hedgehogs.
> No Alan Watkins of course, but Alan Lawson is still there. I wonder what on earth was going on?
>
> Andrew Clarke
> Canberra
AB
May 3, 2017, 3:03:18 PM5/3/17
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AB
Andrew Clarke
May 3, 2017, 5:24:16 PM5/3/17
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He certainly must have had a musical contact in Prague, given that one of the 'gigs' he mentioned here involved a hire-a-band ensemble in that city which was making a recording with an African-American singing preacher: a disc that was hardly going to get into The Gramophone for him to read about in deepest Essex.
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
Andrew Clarke
May 3, 2017, 5:48:45 PM5/3/17
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On Wednesday, May 3, 2017 at 11:57:17 PM UTC+10, nmsz...@gmail.com wrote:
> I wonder most if he would have aided groundhogs in addition to hedgehogs.
Groundhogs would appear to be thick on the ground where you live, but they are not to be seen on the Essex coast.
> I wonder most if he would have aided groundhogs in addition to hedgehogs.
If they did, and if they were suffering from drought, I feel sure that Alan would have helped them along too. Credit where credit's due.
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
Ed Romans
May 4, 2017, 8:16:42 AM5/4/17
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I don't understand why you believe that rmcr Alan might not be the lady who wrote about buses given they appeared to have the same e-mail address and writing style!? The only difference is that in rmcr he used his real name. As far as I remember the only confusion for some people in this group at the time was that there was the red herring of there being another (more famous) journalist called Alan Watkins, not involved with the case.
Rmcr Alan Watkins also claimed to be involved with the LSSO Unicorn recording of Brian symphonies in the 1970s, but I am not sure whether he was the only source of this info, or whether he does have some history in classical music.
Ed
Rmcr Alan Watkins also claimed to be involved with the LSSO Unicorn recording of Brian symphonies in the 1970s, but I am not sure whether he was the only source of this info, or whether he does have some history in classical music.
Ed
Alan Hayward
May 4, 2017, 10:54:12 AM5/4/17
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On Thursday, 4 May 2017 13:16:42 UTC+1, Ed Romans wrote:
"I don't understand why you believe that rmcr Alan might not be the lady who wrote about buses"
The "lady"? The private Google group I referred to in my original post is bus-related and Mr Watkins was a frequent poster to that group, where he used the same name of "Alan M Watkins" that he used in RMCR. Moreover, the email and IP addresses were the same.
"I don't understand why you believe that rmcr Alan might not be the lady who wrote about buses"
"Rmcr Alan Watkins also claimed to be involved with the LSSO Unicorn recording of Brian symphonies in the 1970s, but I am not sure whether he was the only source of this info, or whether he does have some history in classical music."
Ed Romans
May 4, 2017, 11:48:29 AM5/4/17
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On Thursday, May 4, 2017 at 3:54:12 PM UTC+1, Alan Hayward wrote:
>
> The "lady"? The private Google group I referred to in my original post is bus-related and Mr Watkins was a frequent poster to that group, where he used the same name of "Alan M Watkins" that he used in RMCR. Moreover, the email and IP addresses were the same.
>
At the time of Hattogate we found that he had been posting reminiscences on a bus related message board of his time as a female ticket collector (with some name like Dolly or Doris) in the past. These were written in the same style as his reminiscences of playing the timpani in Prague. He signed the posts from the lady but used his Alan e-mail address, either by accident or to create the impression he was just passing on the info for an elderly relative.
>
> The "lady"? The private Google group I referred to in my original post is bus-related and Mr Watkins was a frequent poster to that group, where he used the same name of "Alan M Watkins" that he used in RMCR. Moreover, the email and IP addresses were the same.
>
The Burnham Alan was definitely rmcr Alan. I can't remember the exact details, but it was along the lines that someone like Andrew Rose at Pristine Classical had had a telephone conversation with him and it was confirmed via the telephone number matching the directory number.
Ed
Ed Romans
May 4, 2017, 12:05:39 PM5/4/17
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His involvement in the Leicestershire schools recording of the Brian might be true (if this is a genuine press cutting from 1972):
http://www.lsso.co.uk/photos/texts/1972pressarticles.html
In particular this bit fits:
"However, he does have determined champions - among them Dr. Robert Simpson (A member of the B.B.C.'s music staff) who was mainly responsible for some recent broadcasts of Brian's works, and Alan Watkins, Press Association's deputy news editor and a music enthusiast with early training as a timpanist and percussionist."
Ed
http://www.lsso.co.uk/photos/texts/1972pressarticles.html
In particular this bit fits:
"However, he does have determined champions - among them Dr. Robert Simpson (A member of the B.B.C.'s music staff) who was mainly responsible for some recent broadcasts of Brian's works, and Alan Watkins, Press Association's deputy news editor and a music enthusiast with early training as a timpanist and percussionist."
Ed
chriskh...@gmail.com
May 4, 2017, 2:25:45 PM5/4/17
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chriskh...@gmail.com
May 4, 2017, 2:29:55 PM5/4/17
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O
May 4, 2017, 2:34:15 PM5/4/17
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In article <95edc313-2412-478c...@googlegroups.com>,
<chriskh...@gmail.com> wrote:
Our Old Chap has always been a riddle wrapped in an enigma shrouded by
a tympani drum head.
-Owen
<chriskh...@gmail.com> wrote:
a tympani drum head.
-Owen
Ed Romans
May 4, 2017, 5:11:19 PM5/4/17
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On Thursday, May 4, 2017 at 7:25:45 PM UTC+1, chriskh...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> This has come up before. He appears as "Alan Watkins" first time but thereafter >is Alan Walker. Someone has doctored the article but didn't even trouble to do it >all through
Couldn't it be just a spell check or copying error? Anyway I was surprised to find you can watch the BBC documentary about Brian and the making of this recording on YouTube:
>
> This has come up before. He appears as "Alan Watkins" first time but thereafter >is Alan Walker. Someone has doctored the article but didn't even trouble to do it >all through
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9f7_wiFeDIU
Andrew Clarke
May 4, 2017, 6:08:17 PM5/4/17
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On Friday, May 5, 2017 at 1:48:29 AM UTC+10, Ed Romans wrote:
> On Thursday, May 4, 2017 at 3:54:12 PM UTC+1, Alan Hayward wrote:
> >
> > The "lady"? The private Google group I referred to in my original post is bus-related and Mr Watkins was a frequent poster to that group, where he used the same name of "Alan M Watkins" that he used in RMCR. Moreover, the email and IP addresses were the same.
> >
>
> At the time of Hattogate we found that he had been posting reminiscences on a bus related message board of his time as a female ticket collector (with some name like Dolly or Doris) in the past. These were written in the same style as his reminiscences of playing the timpani in Prague. He signed the posts from the lady but used his Alan e-mail address, either by accident or to create the impression he was just passing on the info for an elderly relative.
>
It was an "old girl" called Daphne Ashworth, who also posted briefly to uk.railway about papers belonging to her father re working for the Great Eastern Railway at Haughley in Suffolk. There was some discussion of the very, very rural "short line" between Haughley and Laxfield, which closed in the early 1950s. Daphne, God bless her, also posted to another group about trams in Prague: her information was found to be out of date.
> On Thursday, May 4, 2017 at 3:54:12 PM UTC+1, Alan Hayward wrote:
> >
> > The "lady"? The private Google group I referred to in my original post is bus-related and Mr Watkins was a frequent poster to that group, where he used the same name of "Alan M Watkins" that he used in RMCR. Moreover, the email and IP addresses were the same.
> >
>
> At the time of Hattogate we found that he had been posting reminiscences on a bus related message board of his time as a female ticket collector (with some name like Dolly or Doris) in the past. These were written in the same style as his reminiscences of playing the timpani in Prague. He signed the posts from the lady but used his Alan e-mail address, either by accident or to create the impression he was just passing on the info for an elderly relative.
>
Later, rec.music.opera received a post from "Ghost of Daphne Ashworth", the Usenet equivalent of a wink and a nudge ...
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
yalea...@gmail.com
May 4, 2017, 10:01:16 PM5/4/17
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Andrew Clarke
May 5, 2017, 8:31:56 AM5/5/17
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On Friday, May 5, 2017 at 12:01:16 PM UTC+10, yalea...@gmail.com wrote:
> Alan Watkins, his gentle humor and wise commentary, have been absent from the Orchestra List <Orches...@yahoogroups.com> since last October, 2016. He referenced himself as "Old Person" and shared many detailed and wonderful stores of past work as a timpanist. His accurate knowledge of the music was evident. His shared insights gained from experience were well respected by the conductors and professional musicians alike who are members of the list. He is missed.
Many thanks for this: could you tell us, from his postings in the Orchestra List, which orchestras Alan played for, and whether he also claimed to have studied and worked in Czechoslovakia? Certainly nobody in Prague seemed to have heard of him, and I am sure that if he played in any of the London orchestras, one of our British posters would have recognised him and stood up for him, especially when conspiracy theories re his involvement with the Hatto fraud were rife.
> Alan Watkins, his gentle humor and wise commentary, have been absent from the Orchestra List <Orches...@yahoogroups.com> since last October, 2016. He referenced himself as "Old Person" and shared many detailed and wonderful stores of past work as a timpanist. His accurate knowledge of the music was evident. His shared insights gained from experience were well respected by the conductors and professional musicians alike who are members of the list. He is missed.
I also wonder how you could combine a career in journalism at the national level with working as a professional percussionist / tympanist? Or did he abandon the latter to take up the former (he was conducting his BSE /CJD campaign in "Today" during the 1990s)?
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
O
May 5, 2017, 8:49:30 AM5/5/17
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In article <3d06fdb7-fb9f-4ea4...@googlegroups.com>,
contained a rather contemptuous view of the US failure to do something
about the invasion of Czechoslovakia by the Soviet Union. The nature
of the post implied that he had a deep personal interest in the event,
and that it affected either him or persons close to him greatly.
-Owen
Andrew Clarke <andrewc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Friday, May 5, 2017 at 12:01:16 PM UTC+10, yalea...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > Alan Watkins, his gentle humor and wise commentary, have been absent from
> > the Orchestra List <Orches...@yahoogroups.com> since last October,
> > 2016. He referenced himself as "Old Person" and shared many detailed and
> > wonderful stores of past work as a timpanist. His accurate knowledge of the
> > music was evident. His shared insights gained from experience were well
> > respected by the conductors and professional musicians alike who are
> > members of the list. He is missed.
>
> Many thanks for this: could you tell us, from his postings in the Orchestra
> List, which orchestras Alan played for, and whether he also claimed to have
> studied and worked in Czechoslovakia? Certainly nobody in Prague seemed to
> have heard of him, and I am sure that if he played in any of the London
> orchestras, one of our British posters would have recognised him and stood up
> for him, especially when conspiracy theories re his involvement with the
> Hatto fraud were rife.
On one of the few occasions where he posted something angrily, it
> On Friday, May 5, 2017 at 12:01:16 PM UTC+10, yalea...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > Alan Watkins, his gentle humor and wise commentary, have been absent from
> > the Orchestra List <Orches...@yahoogroups.com> since last October,
> > 2016. He referenced himself as "Old Person" and shared many detailed and
> > wonderful stores of past work as a timpanist. His accurate knowledge of the
> > music was evident. His shared insights gained from experience were well
> > respected by the conductors and professional musicians alike who are
> > members of the list. He is missed.
>
> Many thanks for this: could you tell us, from his postings in the Orchestra
> List, which orchestras Alan played for, and whether he also claimed to have
> studied and worked in Czechoslovakia? Certainly nobody in Prague seemed to
> have heard of him, and I am sure that if he played in any of the London
> orchestras, one of our British posters would have recognised him and stood up
> for him, especially when conspiracy theories re his involvement with the
> Hatto fraud were rife.
contained a rather contemptuous view of the US failure to do something
about the invasion of Czechoslovakia by the Soviet Union. The nature
of the post implied that he had a deep personal interest in the event,
and that it affected either him or persons close to him greatly.
-Owen
chriskh...@gmail.com
May 5, 2017, 9:05:10 AM5/5/17
to
Il giorno giovedì 4 maggio 2017 23:11:19 UTC+2, Ed Romans ha scritto:
> Couldn't it be just a spell check or copying error? Anyway I was surprised to find you can watch the BBC documentary about Brian and the making of this recording on YouTube:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9f7_wiFeDIU
Well yes, I suppose a typo rather than deliberate falsity might have resulted in Watkins in place of Walker - and then Watkins found it and made use of it.
> Couldn't it be just a spell check or copying error? Anyway I was surprised to find you can watch the BBC documentary about Brian and the making of this recording on YouTube:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9f7_wiFeDIU
Nice to see the BBC documentary. Does the fact that AW is NOT mentioned at any point as one of the prime movers behind the project tell us something? (Might he not have been invited to join the young lasses and lads on their trip to meet the composer?)
joey7c...@yahoo.com
May 5, 2017, 11:14:54 AM5/5/17
to
So, how did he make his living during his life? Was he a professional musician, a bus driver, a journalist, or all three at some point or other?
Ricardo Jimenez
May 5, 2017, 11:45:52 AM5/5/17
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Kosler recording of the Bartered Biride and described details of that
production. It was derived from a Czech TV broadcast and both the CD
and DVD versions are available on Amazon. It was made in Prague in
1981 and released by Supraphon. I guess a dogged investigator could
find out if he really was in the orchestra.
O
May 5, 2017, 1:26:14 PM5/5/17
to
In article <ku6pgc9hnj3vfk17d...@4ax.com>, Ricardo
He also said that he played timpani for a performance of the
Rachmaninoff third concerto with Richter -- a work that Richter never
played.
-Owen
Rachmaninoff third concerto with Richter -- a work that Richter never
played.
-Owen
chriskh...@gmail.com
May 5, 2017, 1:41:07 PM5/5/17
to
Il giorno venerdì 5 maggio 2017 17:45:52 UTC+2, Ricardo Jimenez ha scritto:
> >
> On this board he was very specific that he was the timpanist for the
> Kosler recording of the Bartered Biride and described details of that
> production. It was derived from a Czech TV broadcast and both the CD
> and DVD versions are available on Amazon. It was made in Prague in
> 1981 and released by Supraphon. I guess a dogged investigator could
> find out if he really was in the orchestra.
In a chat site called drumhard that seems to have disappeared, and where AW contributed regularly, there was quite a fracas when somebody reported that nobody in the Prague SO had ever heard of him and challenged him to prove he was really there.
> >
> On this board he was very specific that he was the timpanist for the
> Kosler recording of the Bartered Biride and described details of that
> production. It was derived from a Czech TV broadcast and both the CD
> and DVD versions are available on Amazon. It was made in Prague in
> 1981 and released by Supraphon. I guess a dogged investigator could
> find out if he really was in the orchestra.
Frank Berger
May 5, 2017, 3:02:46 PM5/5/17
to
another recording.
Frank Berger
May 5, 2017, 3:06:17 PM5/5/17
to
knew it), perhaps AMW was just misremembering.
Bozo
May 5, 2017, 6:48:39 PM5/5/17
to
>On Friday, May 5, 2017 at 2:06:17 PM UTC-5, Frank Berger wrote:
> It's so well known that Richter wouldn't play Rach 3 (even I
> knew it), perhaps AMW was just misremembering.
I can't recall at the moment , but are there any timpani parts in any of the Rachmaninoff PC's ?
> It's so well known that Richter wouldn't play Rach 3 (even I
> knew it), perhaps AMW was just misremembering.
Andrew Clarke
May 5, 2017, 8:25:56 PM5/5/17
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On Saturday, May 6, 2017 at 1:14:54 AM UTC+10, joey7c...@yahoo.com wrote:
> So, how did he make his living during his life? Was he a professional musician, a bus driver, a journalist, or all three at some point or other?
He was definitely a journalist and definitely a bus enthusiast, with an interest in services in East Anglia and Lincolnshire, and also Scotland. He claimed to have worked as a bus conductor in these areas when a student, firstly with Premier Travel in Cambridge and later with MacBraynes who at that time operated buses and ferries on the west coast of Scotland and the Western Isles. The reason for the switch was changing universities from one unspecified to the University of Glasgow where he completed his course.
> So, how did he make his living during his life? Was he a professional musician, a bus driver, a journalist, or all three at some point or other?
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
Andrew Clarke
May 5, 2017, 9:54:51 PM5/5/17
to
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
Andrew Clarke
May 5, 2017, 10:42:15 PM5/5/17
to
Sadly, the creator of this instrument of Andipodean origin is now a guest of Her Majesty in the UK and is no longer available to play it.
chriskh...@gmail.com
May 6, 2017, 2:30:08 AM5/6/17
to
Herman
May 6, 2017, 3:45:24 AM5/6/17
to
On Saturday, May 6, 2017 at 12:48:39 AM UTC+2, Bozo wrote:
> I can't recall at the moment , but are there any timpani parts in any of the Rachmaninoff PC's ?
whoa, I guess you're paying too much attention to that other percussion instrument, the one with the 88 keys....
> I can't recall at the moment , but are there any timpani parts in any of the Rachmaninoff PC's ?
Andrew Clarke
May 10, 2017, 7:31:00 PM5/10/17
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The whole Czech saga is the least believable part of of the Watkinsiad: the obvious comparison is with Mackerras who got a British Council scholarship to learn from Talich - most other recipients were doing Slavonic Studies. This, however, was in 1947, the year before the Communists took over, after which the scholarships ceased, and all foreigners were suspect. Then of course came the purges and the show trials of Slansky et al. I seem to remember Alan claiming to have taken up his scholarship at the age of 15 - round about the time of the Hungarian Uprising, when it would have been suicidal for any foreigner to enter any Communist state.
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
joey7c...@yahoo.com
May 11, 2017, 8:53:06 AM5/11/17
to
If he was a journalist, then it seems it would be fairly easy to verify what organizations he worked for, during which years, and where he was stationed (with a little on sight detective work). And, if those years of domestic journalism coincided with the years he was supposedly in Prague.
Even if he was a journalist during the pre-Internet era, it seems there would be a few more references one could dig up on line, other than that singular artical on a recording project.
Even if he was a journalist during the pre-Internet era, it seems there would be a few more references one could dig up on line, other than that singular artical on a recording project.
David Fox
May 11, 2017, 6:50:19 PM5/11/17
to
To me the most convincing arguments/evidence that the RMCR Alan Watkins was in fact William Barington-Coupe were:
1) Alan Watkin’s first-person purple prose description of Hatto’s funeral. None who attended (and there weren't many) remembered meeting or seeing an Alan Watkins;
2) The sheer coincidence of a musical fraud with a strange, elaborate, obscure, and difficult-to-corroborate backstory (Irish percussionist working in Soviet-era Prague) appearing (and disappearing) coincidentally with that of another even more elaborate musical fraud. RMCR denizens will also remember the other fake persona (often Eastern European as well) that briefly appeared after Alan M. Watkins was shamed away but were quickly exposed and then also disappeared. WB-C was quite clever in the construction of his frauds and often dressed them up with a truthful outer layer. Joyce Hatto had in fact been a concertizing, recording pianist – she just wasn’t the one on any of the records he released. Similarly, Alan M. Watkins could have been an Irish-born writer with some Internet presence. He just wasn’t RMCR’s Alan M. Watkins.
1) Alan Watkin’s first-person purple prose description of Hatto’s funeral. None who attended (and there weren't many) remembered meeting or seeing an Alan Watkins;
2) The sheer coincidence of a musical fraud with a strange, elaborate, obscure, and difficult-to-corroborate backstory (Irish percussionist working in Soviet-era Prague) appearing (and disappearing) coincidentally with that of another even more elaborate musical fraud. RMCR denizens will also remember the other fake persona (often Eastern European as well) that briefly appeared after Alan M. Watkins was shamed away but were quickly exposed and then also disappeared. WB-C was quite clever in the construction of his frauds and often dressed them up with a truthful outer layer. Joyce Hatto had in fact been a concertizing, recording pianist – she just wasn’t the one on any of the records he released. Similarly, Alan M. Watkins could have been an Irish-born writer with some Internet presence. He just wasn’t RMCR’s Alan M. Watkins.
Frank Berger
May 11, 2017, 7:23:23 PM5/11/17
to
of Alan M. Watkins here:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2005/July05/Krombholc.htm
is incredibly amateurish. It sounds like it was written by
a junior high school student.
One example: "Jaroslav Krombholc passed away after a long
battle against ill-health which had gone on for some years."
Another: In the short piece I count 9 usages of the form, "I
think..." or "I feel...." or "I believe" or "In my opinion."
Was he worried we would think someone else wrote it?
So Watkins may have been neither a musician nor a writer.
What then?
Herman
May 12, 2017, 1:57:32 AM5/12/17
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On Friday, May 12, 2017 at 12:50:19 AM UTC+2, David Fox wrote:
> To me the most convincing arguments/evidence that the RMCR Alan Watkins was in fact William Barington-Coupe were:
>
or he could be just some local sad sack.
> To me the most convincing arguments/evidence that the RMCR Alan Watkins was in fact William Barington-Coupe were:
>
To some people the internet is an opportunity to live far more interesting lives than they actually have, by claiming to have been in all sorts of exciting places. This is quite common.
Youtube concerts. There is always a commenter who says he was at that epochal concert of a since deceased artist.
We currently have a very frequent contributor who claims to have been at every major concert since he was three years old - and remembers every single note, plus travelling in three different countries at the same time ever since.
chriskh...@gmail.com
May 12, 2017, 11:50:43 AM5/12/17
to
>
> So Watkins may have been neither a musician nor a writer.
> What then?
hiker_rs
May 12, 2017, 12:17:28 PM5/12/17
to
On Tuesday, May 2, 2017 at 3:26:36 PM UTC-6, Alan Hayward wrote:
> A post to a private Google group reports that Alan Watkins died last October from a massive heart attack. Older RMCR contributors and readers will remember Mr Watkins as one of the more bizarre posters to this NG. Whatever we thought of some of his remarkable flights of fancy, he did have a considerable knowledge of music and performers and news of his passing is passed on with sadness.
Some years ago when I was planning a trip to Prague RMCR's Alan Watkins gave me some useful information on Prague restaurants. So his Prague association seemed credible to me.
I would like to note that both "Alan" and "Watkins" are very common names. There are probably hundreds if not thousands of genuine Alan Watkins in the world and the one that posted on RMCR could just as well have been made up. Finding an obit for a particular Alan Watkins and associating it with the RMCR poster from years ago is more likely to be misplaced than not.
-Rich
> A post to a private Google group reports that Alan Watkins died last October from a massive heart attack. Older RMCR contributors and readers will remember Mr Watkins as one of the more bizarre posters to this NG. Whatever we thought of some of his remarkable flights of fancy, he did have a considerable knowledge of music and performers and news of his passing is passed on with sadness.
Some years ago when I was planning a trip to Prague RMCR's Alan Watkins gave me some useful information on Prague restaurants. So his Prague association seemed credible to me.
I would like to note that both "Alan" and "Watkins" are very common names. There are probably hundreds if not thousands of genuine Alan Watkins in the world and the one that posted on RMCR could just as well have been made up. Finding an obit for a particular Alan Watkins and associating it with the RMCR poster from years ago is more likely to be misplaced than not.
-Rich
joey7c...@yahoo.com
May 12, 2017, 1:39:47 PM5/12/17
to
Alan, did the person in that bus newsgroup who reported the death of AW state how he or she learned of the news?
Frank Berger
May 12, 2017, 1:48:41 PM5/12/17
to
On 5/12/2017 12:17 PM, hiker_rs wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 2, 2017 at 3:26:36 PM UTC-6, Alan Hayward wrote:
>> A post to a private Google group reports that Alan Watkins died last October from a massive heart attack. Older RMCR contributors and readers will remember Mr Watkins as one of the more bizarre posters to this NG. Whatever we thought of some of his remarkable flights of fancy, he did have a considerable knowledge of music and performers and news of his passing is passed on with sadness.
>
> Some years ago when I was planning a trip to Prague RMCR's Alan Watkins gave me some useful information on Prague restaurants. So his Prague association seemed credible to me.
>
I recently told someone about Kosher restaurants in Prague.
> On Tuesday, May 2, 2017 at 3:26:36 PM UTC-6, Alan Hayward wrote:
>> A post to a private Google group reports that Alan Watkins died last October from a massive heart attack. Older RMCR contributors and readers will remember Mr Watkins as one of the more bizarre posters to this NG. Whatever we thought of some of his remarkable flights of fancy, he did have a considerable knowledge of music and performers and news of his passing is passed on with sadness.
>
> Some years ago when I was planning a trip to Prague RMCR's Alan Watkins gave me some useful information on Prague restaurants. So his Prague association seemed credible to me.
>
I have never been there. (Here's hoping, though)
Frank Berger
May 12, 2017, 1:49:25 PM5/12/17
to
have no particular skills in music nor journalism.
chriskh...@gmail.com
May 12, 2017, 3:30:08 PM5/12/17
to
Il giorno venerdì 12 maggio 2017 19:39:47 UTC+2, joey7c...@yahoo.com ha scritto:
> Alan, did the person in that bus newsgroup who reported the death of AW state how he or she learned of the news?
Here you are
> Alan, did the person in that bus newsgroup who reported the death of AW state how he or she learned of the news?
http://www.pressgazette.co.uk/former-sun-news-editor-alan-watkins-described-as-a-legend-in-the-industry-after-his-death-aged-74/
Here too
http://www.maldonandburnhamstandard.co.uk/news/14951982.Tributes_paid_to_former_journalist_who_made_Burnham_his_home/
No doubt contributions to the British Hedgehog Preservation Society will still be welcome
chriskh...@gmail.com
May 12, 2017, 3:34:44 PM5/12/17
to
Frank Berger
May 12, 2017, 3:49:48 PM5/12/17
to
On 5/12/2017 3:34 PM, chriskh...@gmail.com wrote:
> Il giorno venerdì 12 maggio 2017 19:49:25 UTC+2, Frank Berger ha scritto:
>> On 5/12/2017 11:50 AM, chriskh...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> So Watkins may have been neither a musician nor a writer.
>>>> What then?
>>>
>>> It seems that a Miss Young imbued him with a love of music: http://cottenceau1.free.fr/Fresnel2/Actu/teach/like3.htm
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I am quite prepared to believe a person can love music and
>> have no particular skills in music nor journalism.
>
> His writing skills have been admired but remember he wrote for tabloids like the Sun (I refer to the BSE articles) so a fairly simplistic style was in order.
I have nothing against anybody named Watkins, but the
> Il giorno venerdì 12 maggio 2017 19:49:25 UTC+2, Frank Berger ha scritto:
>> On 5/12/2017 11:50 AM, chriskh...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> So Watkins may have been neither a musician nor a writer.
>>>> What then?
>>>
>>> It seems that a Miss Young imbued him with a love of music: http://cottenceau1.free.fr/Fresnel2/Actu/teach/like3.htm
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I am quite prepared to believe a person can love music and
>> have no particular skills in music nor journalism.
>
> His writing skills have been admired but remember he wrote for tabloids like the Sun (I refer to the BSE articles) so a fairly simplistic style was in order.
writing I referred to was worse than "simplistic."
> Sometimes in these musical jaunts (if he wrote them, but the link between the timanist and Hatto-loving AMW and the Burnham upon Crouch address seems to have been established) he seems to be deliberately donning someone else's cap
>
RMCR Watkins ever mention being a journalst or hedeghogs, or
ANYTHING suggesting a link to the recently deceased Watkins?
Message has been deleted
Alan Hayward
May 12, 2017, 5:23:19 PM5/12/17
to
On Friday, 12 May 2017 18:39:47 UTC+1, joey7c...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Alan, did the person in that bus newsgroup who reported the death of AW state how he or she learned of the news?
From a group called the "Dengie Hedgehog Rescue". Dengie is in the east of Essex.
> Alan, did the person in that bus newsgroup who reported the death of AW state how he or she learned of the news?
Bozo
May 12, 2017, 6:25:33 PM5/12/17
to
>On Friday, May 12, 2017 at 12:49:25 PM UTC-5, Frank Berger wrote:
> I am quite prepared to believe a person can love music and
> have no particular skills in music nor journalism.
As with most posts here, QED.
> I am quite prepared to believe a person can love music and
> have no particular skills in music nor journalism.
chriskh...@gmail.com
May 13, 2017, 2:07:32 AM5/13/17
to
Il giorno venerdì 12 maggio 2017 21:49:48 UTC+2, Frank Berger ha scritto:
the link between the timanist and Hatto-loving AMW and the Burnham upon Crouch address seems to have been established)
the link between the timanist and Hatto-loving AMW and the Burnham upon Crouch address seems to have been established)
> You meant "not" to have been established, right? Did the
> RMCR Watkins ever mention being a journalst or hedeghogs, or
> ANYTHING suggesting a link to the recently deceased Watkins?
Not on RMCR but here is part of an email I received in December 2007 from a person I know in England who rang up the Burnham upon Crouch Watkins at the number then (maybe still) showing on a site dedicated to BSE journalists. As far as I can see, it establishes the connection between this Watkins and the Hatto-loving timpanist beyond doubt. I've cut a few bits out of the conversation and I don't think any "sensitive data" (for either party) remain.
> RMCR Watkins ever mention being a journalst or hedeghogs, or
> ANYTHING suggesting a link to the recently deceased Watkins?
"I spoke to him for about 20 minutes on Saturday. The conversation started with AMW saying he couldn't talk because he was working. I suggested that we agreed on another time and he said he "didn't know much about it anyway, it’s all a bit of a mystery, it was so surprising that anyone would do such a thing, to tell you the truth I am still in a state of shock about it." …
I said that the story was still evolving. He admitted that he hadn't been keeping up to date and asked what I meant. I mentioned the latest Fiorentino story re the Mazurkas. He said that he had asked WBC about some of the Fiorentinos … but WBC had denied that there was anything wrong with them.
As I was afraid we didn't have much time I got straight into the meat. He said that he had heard Hatto live twice in London. He thought that the venues could have been Bishopsgate Hall and Wigmore but wasn't sure; he put the date as early sixties, when he was a student. He didn't remember much about the concerts - he said that in one she had played Liszt. He denied that the performances were conspicuously bad. I asked him if in general he had felt used by WBC. He said "I said what I said" meaning that the opinions on the CDs were his own. I asked about the inside information that he shared ... eg the statement that she had played with all the leading conductors in the 50s, saying that no trace of performances with De Sabata et al had emerged. He said he couldn't remember if he had got the information verbally from WBC or had read it. In any case he said it was still possible that these appearances happened abroad, and mentioned that there are a lot of British pianists that are better known overseas than in their own country.
… In relation to Prague, I asked when he had first gone there. He said 65 and claims to be there part-time at present.
He said that the thing he couldn't forgive WBC for was the funeral, where so much music had been played and none of it was really Hatto. He said it had only been a Humanist service, there was no need to have had any music. …
He said that he had thought long and hard about JH's involvement in the whole thing and decided that she must have been in on it.
Rather abruptly, he told me that he had to go and we then arranged to speak again on Wednesday evening."
(My correspondent’s further calls were not answered)
Gerard
May 13, 2017, 3:58:32 AM5/13/17
to
Op zaterdag 13 mei 2017 00:25:33 UTC+2 schreef Bozo:
Surely YOUR posts.
Ed Romans
May 13, 2017, 7:17:40 AM5/13/17
to
On Friday, May 12, 2017 at 5:17:28 PM UTC+1, hiker_rs wrote:
>
> I would like to note that both "Alan" and "Watkins" are very common names. There are probably hundreds if not thousands of genuine Alan Watkins in the world and the one that posted on RMCR could just as well have been made up. Finding an obit for a particular Alan Watkins and associating it with the RMCR poster from years ago is more likely to be misplaced than not.
>
> -Rich
As Chris Howell mentioned earlier, at the time of Hattogate several (real) people telephoned Burham Alan using a phone number and address that were verifiably in the UK phone directory. This is how rmcr members worked out at the time that rmcr Alan was Burnham Alan. I think this bit of the story is probably true.
>
> I would like to note that both "Alan" and "Watkins" are very common names. There are probably hundreds if not thousands of genuine Alan Watkins in the world and the one that posted on RMCR could just as well have been made up. Finding an obit for a particular Alan Watkins and associating it with the RMCR poster from years ago is more likely to be misplaced than not.
>
> -Rich
Ed
joey7c...@yahoo.com
May 13, 2017, 12:22:33 PM5/13/17
to
tag
May 13, 2017, 11:36:35 PM5/13/17
to
I counted myself blessed every time I read one of Alan Watkins posts. They were so charmingly written, so insightful into music and people, that I could never bring myself to care how much of him and his writing was invention or fact, anymore than I would with a novelist who invents himself in his characters. What a shame that curiosity turned to outright hostility at rcmr, driving Watkins out with tar and feathers!
Al Eisner
May 15, 2017, 5:16:18 PM5/15/17
to
"Although the town has a population of little over 7,500, it is the
principal settlement in the wider Dengie peninsula area (population
20,000), meaning it has facilities that are uncommon in small
towns, such as a cinema, a laundrette, a post office, 22 licensed
drinking establishments and three pharmacies."
So what do you think?
I do regret, however, that the reported phone conversation didn't touch
at all on hedgehogs[*] :)
[*OT] which from my perspective are rather mythical creatures, much more so
than groundhogs or quahogs, none of which we have in California.
--
Al Eisner
O
May 16, 2017, 6:55:51 AM5/16/17
to
In article
<alpine.LRH.2.00.1...@rhel6-64o.slac.stanford.edu>, Al
We have quahogs here in Rhode Island. I believe they are our State
Bird. :-)
-Owen
<alpine.LRH.2.00.1...@rhel6-64o.slac.stanford.edu>, Al
Bird. :-)
-Owen
Andrew Clarke
May 16, 2017, 8:43:18 AM5/16/17
to
On Tuesday, May 16, 2017 at 7:16:18 AM UTC+10, Al Eisner wrote:
>
> From Wikipedia:
> "Although the town has a population of little over 7,500, it is the
> principal settlement in the wider Dengie peninsula area (population
> 20,000), meaning it has facilities that are uncommon in small
> towns, such as a cinema, a laundrette, a post office, 22 licensed
> drinking establishments and three pharmacies."
>
> So what do you think?
According to his obituary, Alan moved to Burnham on Crouch from Billericay, home of Billericay Dickie, Your Favourite Brickie. His apprenticeship as a reporter began with the Laindon Echo at the age of 15, which is about the same age, according to one version, of his taking up a scholarship as a percussionist.
>
> From Wikipedia:
> "Although the town has a population of little over 7,500, it is the
> principal settlement in the wider Dengie peninsula area (population
> 20,000), meaning it has facilities that are uncommon in small
> towns, such as a cinema, a laundrette, a post office, 22 licensed
> drinking establishments and three pharmacies."
>
> So what do you think?
It's perhaps significant that the obituary doesn't mention any musical activities.
> I do regret, however, that the reported phone conversation didn't touch
> at all on hedgehogs[*] :)
It's sad that there are no hedgehogs in California, but I understand that there are (or were) rattlesnakes in Gower Gulch.
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
Alan Hayward
May 16, 2017, 12:12:03 PM5/16/17
to
On Tuesday, 16 May 2017 13:43:18 UTC+1, Andrew Clarke wrote:
"Hedgehogs, attractive little animals which often appear in children's books, are normally rarely seen, but there really was a crisis due to drought, there was and probably still is, a national organisation to promote their protection"
We have hedgehogs in our back garden and see them frequently. When we had a cat, she used to eat from one side of a bowl of food while a hedgehog ate from the other. There still is an active campaign to protect hedgehogs which are, apparently, in serious decline in the UK.
"Hedgehogs, attractive little animals which often appear in children's books, are normally rarely seen, but there really was a crisis due to drought, there was and probably still is, a national organisation to promote their protection"
On another note, I checked the BT Phone Book (www.thephonebook.bt.com) to see how many "Watkins" they listed in Burnham-on-Crouch. I found three entries, all for A M Watkins and all at the same address. Three, different phone numbers though.
Al Eisner
May 16, 2017, 3:42:17 PM5/16/17
to
well, I think). By the way, I omitted warthogs from my hog list, but
it probably would have been unseemly to include them. (Also, none in CA.)
--
Al Eisner
"So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it
enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind
to do." >>> Benjamin Franklin (Autobiography)
Andrew Clarke
May 16, 2017, 6:03:09 PM5/16/17
to
Incidentally the obituary mentions Alan's work for his local Catholic church (St Cuthbert's) and in one of his non-rmcr posts, he mentioned that he went to a Catholic school somewhere in Sarf Essex (Southend-on-Sea?).
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
Bob Harper
May 17, 2017, 5:03:43 PM5/17/17
to
Bob Harper
Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted
Bob Harper
Jun 4, 2018, 8:43:23 PM6/4/18
to
On 6/4/18 4:48 PM, williamal...@gmail.com wrote:
> Alan was very possibly part of a group of music professionals centred round the Dvorak Society which had connections with Burnham on Crouch . They would have known William Barrington-Coupe and Joyce Hatto but would have been unaware of the scam .
>
Interesting. Sad to know that he was deceiving us all, but at least he
did it charmingly--IMO, at least.
Bob Harper
>
Interesting. Sad to know that he was deceiving us all, but at least he
did it charmingly--IMO, at least.
Bob Harper
nmsz...@gmail.com
Jun 5, 2018, 1:25:04 PM6/5/18
to
> Bob Harper
O
Jun 5, 2018, 1:47:50 PM6/5/18
to
In article <19e71b0f-97a8-4d97...@googlegroups.com>,
He was an interesting person, but I think he would have been a more
interesting person if he presented himself as Alan Watkins, busman and
classical music enthusiast rather than Alan Watkins, former timpanist
of the Czech Philharmonic/Symphony (I forget which) who played with
Richter in the Rach 3.
Telling falsehoods inevitably leads to more falsehoods, and trying to
string them together becomes impossible. I wouldn't say Watkins was
"driven out," as no one can be forced out of this group. I would say
it was more his falsehoods started closing in on him, and he became
angry and defiant about defending them and himself. It's much more
easier to tell the truth.
It was probably a personality defect, a "congenital liar," if you will,
which pushed him to want to invent stories about himself. I suppose
every good politician is afflicted with the same ailment.
For a while I thought he and WBC were one and the same, as their
appearances here did overlap, but that appears not to have been so.
The experiences with posters in this group over L'Affair Hatto surely
added to their contempt when Watkins was shown to be another fraud.
After it's all said and done though, even people like Watson and
Ansermaniac and other outside-the-box posters have added their
particular stamps to this group, and I'm glad they were here. Imagine
if there was a group and no one posted!
-Owen
interesting person if he presented himself as Alan Watkins, busman and
classical music enthusiast rather than Alan Watkins, former timpanist
of the Czech Philharmonic/Symphony (I forget which) who played with
Richter in the Rach 3.
Telling falsehoods inevitably leads to more falsehoods, and trying to
string them together becomes impossible. I wouldn't say Watkins was
"driven out," as no one can be forced out of this group. I would say
it was more his falsehoods started closing in on him, and he became
angry and defiant about defending them and himself. It's much more
easier to tell the truth.
It was probably a personality defect, a "congenital liar," if you will,
which pushed him to want to invent stories about himself. I suppose
every good politician is afflicted with the same ailment.
For a while I thought he and WBC were one and the same, as their
appearances here did overlap, but that appears not to have been so.
The experiences with posters in this group over L'Affair Hatto surely
added to their contempt when Watkins was shown to be another fraud.
After it's all said and done though, even people like Watson and
Ansermaniac and other outside-the-box posters have added their
particular stamps to this group, and I'm glad they were here. Imagine
if there was a group and no one posted!
-Owen
Andrew Clarke
Jun 5, 2018, 7:54:01 PM6/5/18
to
" TRIBUTES have been paid to a former journalist who “fell in love” with Burnham after moving to the town.
Alan Watkins, who died aged 74 with his family by his side, was a former news editor at The Sun who was was heavily involved in proving the link between Mad Cow Disease and its human equivalent, CJD.
He also tackled stories such as the Aberfan disaster and the Brighton bombings in the 80s.
In 1979 Alan moved to Burnham after securing his position at The Sun.
Daughter Susan Watkins said: “He moved here because he used to live in Billericay, but wanted somewhere bigger.
“He started working for The Sun around then so bought the house in Burnham and absolutely fell in love with place.
“He did a lot of work at St Cuthbert’s Church in the town.
“In the last 15 years he spent in Burnham he never really left. He had everything he wanted here.
“In his later life he took to rescuing hedgehogs in Burnham and the Dengie.
“He used to take them in, rehabilitate them, care for them, and let them off when they were well again. He was a wonderful man.”
Alan took a lot of pride in his work, and continued to do so almost until the day he died on October 31, despite pleas from Susan.
She added: “He worked right up until the end. He sold a story on the day he fell ill.
“He just loved being a journalist and no matter how hard I tried to convince him to retire, he wouldn’t do it.
“He broke endless stories of national importance, but none mattered more to him than his work on proving the link between Mad Cow Disease and the human variant CJD.
“For months he battled with Department of Health officials, working alongside eminent medical professors and the families of children infected with the deadly disease.
“Finally, after much hard work, he was able to publish what he knew.
“This in turn led to an extremely vitriolic letter from the then Minister of Health arriving on the news desk.
“He always described receiving that as one of his greatest achievements.
“Today all blood products must be screened for evidence before being given to patients.”
Alan’s funeral is to be held next Thursday at 11am at St Cuthbert’s Church, on Western Road, Burnham. All donations should go to the British Hedgehog Preservation Society.
He is survived by wife Ruth, daughter Susan and grandson Daniel."
http://www.maldonandburnhamstandard.co.uk/news/14951982.Tributes_paid_to_former_journalist_who_made_Burnham_his_home/
So a moderately successful journalist, not a career politician. IIRR the Czech connection with Burnham on Crouch was slight - they once had a committee member who lived there some years ago.
I think it was this obituary which originally mentioned that Alan was a graduate of the University of Glasgow: I did contact that august seat of learning last year and they have no record of anyone called Alan M Watkins being enrolled there: I suspect that his claims to have studied in Glasgow were invented to justify his knowledge of ship/ferry/bus operator David McBrayne, for whom he claimed to have worked during his university vacations.
On the other hand, his claims elsewhere on the web to have gone to a Catholic school somewhere in Sarf Essex are entirely credible - the St Cuthbert's Church, mentioned in the obituary is RC.
Fantasist? Leg-puller? who knows? - only perhaps his wife Ruth or his daughter Susan. I very much doubt, however, that he ever deliberately defrauded anybody.
Andrew Clarke, B. Watk. Stud. (Billericay)
Canberra
Richergar
Jan 16, 2019, 3:26:15 PM1/16/19
to
Apologies to all for a very late reply on a subject that is almost certainly outside of the interest of the group, but I thank you all for the posts, and also would like to add a bit of what I know
I posted for far too many years on your psychotic sister group , rec.music.opera, which as a general matter showed the futility of delivering psychotropic drugs over the internet
Having said that, the group in its earlier years was remarkable, and "Alan" was on from a very early period.
He and I had a few years of very bad communications - that's a polite way to say we called each other every name in the book - and I felt everything the rest of you would have felt about him as a fantasist.
While I believe a lot of what he said was totally impossible or improbable (and he certainly wasn't the only fantasist on the group - just the most articulate), I don't think it was all made up out of whole cloth. For one thing, I believe that it is very likely, as he said, that he lost a son in a terrible car accident. Those kinds of things change your life. He was clear he had a daughter
I also think he was involved somehow with Havergal Brian - both the quality of the stories he told, and also some stray internet posting reflecting more juried-contributions, suggest that. Of course, he was not a timpanist or even a professional musician. As a timpanist, he once said that his favorite opera was Sonnambula, because you played the overture and then went home; a cursory listen to any recording, much less opening a score, would have told him to find another opera. And as someone pointed out, he was NEVER posting from Czechia - aol isn't a home service there. And yes, he totally fluffed it on Joyce Hatto (those who read him would believe that he bought thousands of dollars of her 'recordings' and made the trip - almost by pack mule - from Prague to her home for the funeral). He was hardly the only person to be fooled, however, as we all know. He also found the perfect alibi to not ever being 'tested' by a piece of music - he claimed his computer didn't have a sound card because the level of reproduction was too poor for him. That's some kind of genius. I do believe that he was the same gentleman who posted about hedgehogs and buses (he clearly had a mania for trains, something I now understand much better), and a hatred for the Royal Family, and all of those things are echoed in the so-called 'other' Alan Watkins in various other groups. I don't know of a shred of evidence that he understood ANY Slavic language - hard to believe if he'd lived there so long, and once early on in our slanging matches, I sent him publically some insults in Russian, and his response really came from a particularly bad version of Russian google. They made no sense at all
But after a few years, we became very close and corresponded often privately. Every time I went to the UK I asked to see him. Of course, and it was a foregone conclusion, he was always on tour somewhere with something. At times, I'd send him pictures of odd train switching rounds, and once or twice, as I recall, he'd respond.
And though he was by no stretch of the imagination - even his, perhaps - was he a performer, most of us (I think) are not, either, and I think many of his beliefs ABOUT music, and how one got to learn about music, and what was important in music, were not only 'valid' and real, but extraordinarily mature and generous. His love of Slavic music was real, and profound, and his knowledge of it, I think, more than passing
He knew of my love for this literature - I travel and traveled often to Russia - and we spoke private a great deal about Sviridov. He told me a number of things that I was later able to check out as accurate, and most interestingly, sent me a commercial cd of late Sviridov songs - all religious in nature after Sviridov 'came out' as being a Believer. The package did not have a home return address, but was, interestingly, from the Dvorak Society in London.
In his last communication to me, several years ago, he told me that after many years, he'd been received into the arms of the (Russian) Orthodox Church, as much for the music as for anything.
He was absolutely a wonderful writer, something that is rarely encountered on any of these groups. It wasn't just a matter of style, but, when he wasn't in one of his red mists (as he said his wife called them), real elegance of thought. I think that he wanted to find some way to share (and legitimize) his love of music, and for a lot of people, including me (and I have had a whole, very misbegotten, musical and performing education) he did so, and he really encouraged people to find out for themselves, to believe for themselves, and not to be embarrassed by any musical pathway they decided to take. A snob he was not, and that is something less rare than it should be throughout music.
The internet is really Plato's Cave, and all we ever see are shadows. The outline on his cave wall was, undoubtedly, not quite the picture of the man, but on its own terms, it was, I think, more than enough
R.I.P., Alan
I posted for far too many years on your psychotic sister group , rec.music.opera, which as a general matter showed the futility of delivering psychotropic drugs over the internet
Having said that, the group in its earlier years was remarkable, and "Alan" was on from a very early period.
He and I had a few years of very bad communications - that's a polite way to say we called each other every name in the book - and I felt everything the rest of you would have felt about him as a fantasist.
While I believe a lot of what he said was totally impossible or improbable (and he certainly wasn't the only fantasist on the group - just the most articulate), I don't think it was all made up out of whole cloth. For one thing, I believe that it is very likely, as he said, that he lost a son in a terrible car accident. Those kinds of things change your life. He was clear he had a daughter
I also think he was involved somehow with Havergal Brian - both the quality of the stories he told, and also some stray internet posting reflecting more juried-contributions, suggest that. Of course, he was not a timpanist or even a professional musician. As a timpanist, he once said that his favorite opera was Sonnambula, because you played the overture and then went home; a cursory listen to any recording, much less opening a score, would have told him to find another opera. And as someone pointed out, he was NEVER posting from Czechia - aol isn't a home service there. And yes, he totally fluffed it on Joyce Hatto (those who read him would believe that he bought thousands of dollars of her 'recordings' and made the trip - almost by pack mule - from Prague to her home for the funeral). He was hardly the only person to be fooled, however, as we all know. He also found the perfect alibi to not ever being 'tested' by a piece of music - he claimed his computer didn't have a sound card because the level of reproduction was too poor for him. That's some kind of genius. I do believe that he was the same gentleman who posted about hedgehogs and buses (he clearly had a mania for trains, something I now understand much better), and a hatred for the Royal Family, and all of those things are echoed in the so-called 'other' Alan Watkins in various other groups. I don't know of a shred of evidence that he understood ANY Slavic language - hard to believe if he'd lived there so long, and once early on in our slanging matches, I sent him publically some insults in Russian, and his response really came from a particularly bad version of Russian google. They made no sense at all
But after a few years, we became very close and corresponded often privately. Every time I went to the UK I asked to see him. Of course, and it was a foregone conclusion, he was always on tour somewhere with something. At times, I'd send him pictures of odd train switching rounds, and once or twice, as I recall, he'd respond.
And though he was by no stretch of the imagination - even his, perhaps - was he a performer, most of us (I think) are not, either, and I think many of his beliefs ABOUT music, and how one got to learn about music, and what was important in music, were not only 'valid' and real, but extraordinarily mature and generous. His love of Slavic music was real, and profound, and his knowledge of it, I think, more than passing
He knew of my love for this literature - I travel and traveled often to Russia - and we spoke private a great deal about Sviridov. He told me a number of things that I was later able to check out as accurate, and most interestingly, sent me a commercial cd of late Sviridov songs - all religious in nature after Sviridov 'came out' as being a Believer. The package did not have a home return address, but was, interestingly, from the Dvorak Society in London.
In his last communication to me, several years ago, he told me that after many years, he'd been received into the arms of the (Russian) Orthodox Church, as much for the music as for anything.
He was absolutely a wonderful writer, something that is rarely encountered on any of these groups. It wasn't just a matter of style, but, when he wasn't in one of his red mists (as he said his wife called them), real elegance of thought. I think that he wanted to find some way to share (and legitimize) his love of music, and for a lot of people, including me (and I have had a whole, very misbegotten, musical and performing education) he did so, and he really encouraged people to find out for themselves, to believe for themselves, and not to be embarrassed by any musical pathway they decided to take. A snob he was not, and that is something less rare than it should be throughout music.
The internet is really Plato's Cave, and all we ever see are shadows. The outline on his cave wall was, undoubtedly, not quite the picture of the man, but on its own terms, it was, I think, more than enough
R.I.P., Alan
Oscar
Jan 16, 2019, 3:42:01 PM1/16/19
to
On Wednesday, January 16, 2019 at 12:26:15 PM, Richergar wrote:
>
> ...
> The internet is really Plato's Cave, and all we ever see are shadows. The outline on his cave wall was,
> undoubtedly, not quite the picture of the man, but on its own terms, it was, I think, more than enough
>
> R.I.P., Alan
Interesting post. Thanks.
>
> ...
> The internet is really Plato's Cave, and all we ever see are shadows. The outline on his cave wall was,
> undoubtedly, not quite the picture of the man, but on its own terms, it was, I think, more than enough
>
> R.I.P., Alan
HT
Jan 16, 2019, 6:37:46 PM1/16/19
to
Op woensdag 16 januari 2019 21:42:01 UTC+1 schreef Oscar:
Seconded!
Henk
Henk
Andrew Clarke
Jan 16, 2019, 8:13:38 PM1/16/19
to
I realised that the only way I could confirm this hypothesis was to contact the family, but I doubted that they would want to talk to a complete stranger calling from Australia.
Many thanks again,
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
Oscar
Jan 16, 2019, 9:37:55 PM1/16/19
to
On Wednesday, January 16, 2019 at 5:13:38 PM, Andrew Clarke wrote:
>
> I realised that the only way I could confirm this hypothesis was to contact the family, but I doubted that
> they would want to talk to a complete stranger calling from Australia.
Reports that say that something hasn't happened are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns—the ones we don't know we don't know. And if one looks throughout the history of our country and other free countries, it is the latter category that tend to be the difficult ones.
>
> I realised that the only way I could confirm this hypothesis was to contact the family, but I doubted that
> they would want to talk to a complete stranger calling from Australia.
-Secretary of Defense Donald Henry Rumsfeld, February 12, 2002
Andrew Clarke
Jan 16, 2019, 10:45:29 PM1/16/19
to
And I also think we know that those who didn't know but who said they knew that AMW was William Barrington Smith or some other confidence trickster didn't know they didn't know either ...
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
Frank Berger
Jan 16, 2019, 11:46:45 PM1/16/19
to
Andrew Clarke
Jan 17, 2019, 12:39:14 AM1/17/19
to
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
Andrew Clarke
Jan 17, 2019, 4:10:02 AM1/17/19
to
On Thursday, January 17, 2019 at 7:26:15 AM UTC+11, Richergar wrote:
> Apologies to all for a very late reply on a subject that is almost certainly outside of the interest of the group, but I thank you all for the posts, and also would like to add a bit of what I know
>
> I posted for far too many years on your psychotic sister group , rec.music.opera, which as a general matter showed the futility of delivering psychotropic drugs over the internet
>
> Having said that, the group in its earlier years was remarkable, and "Alan" was on from a very early period.
>
> He and I had a few years of very bad communications - that's a polite way to say we called each other every name in the book - and I felt everything the rest of you would have felt about him as a fantasist.
>
> While I believe a lot of what he said was totally impossible or improbable (and he certainly wasn't the only fantasist on the group - just the most articulate), I don't think it was all made up out of whole cloth. For one thing, I believe that it is very likely, as he said, that he lost a son in a terrible car accident. Those kinds of things change your life. He was clear he had a daughter
>
> I also think he was involved somehow with Havergal Brian - both the quality of the stories he told, and also some stray internet posting reflecting more juried-contributions, suggest that. Of course, he was not a timpanist or even a professional musician. As a timpanist, he once said that his favorite opera was Sonnambula, because you played the overture and then went home; a cursory listen to any recording, much less opening a score, would have told him to find another opera. And as someone pointed out, he was NEVER posting from Czechia - aol isn't a home service there. And yes, he totally fluffed it on Joyce Hatto (those who read him would believe that he bought thousands of dollars of her 'recordings' and made the trip - almost by pack mule - from Prague to her home for the funeral). He was hardly the only person to be fooled, however, as we all know. He also found the perfect alibi to not ever being 'tested' by a piece of music - he claimed his computer didn't have a sound card because the level of reproduction was too poor for him. That's some kind of genius. I do believe that he was the same gentleman who posted about hedgehogs and buses (he clearly had a mania for trains, something I now understand much better), and a hatred for the Royal Family, and all of those things are echoed in the so-called 'other' Alan Watkins in various other groups.
I think the hatred of the Royals may have resulted from his Irish persona. He may have claimed to have had dual Irish / British nationality at one stage.
>
> I posted for far too many years on your psychotic sister group , rec.music.opera, which as a general matter showed the futility of delivering psychotropic drugs over the internet
>
> Having said that, the group in its earlier years was remarkable, and "Alan" was on from a very early period.
>
> He and I had a few years of very bad communications - that's a polite way to say we called each other every name in the book - and I felt everything the rest of you would have felt about him as a fantasist.
>
> While I believe a lot of what he said was totally impossible or improbable (and he certainly wasn't the only fantasist on the group - just the most articulate), I don't think it was all made up out of whole cloth. For one thing, I believe that it is very likely, as he said, that he lost a son in a terrible car accident. Those kinds of things change your life. He was clear he had a daughter
>
> I also think he was involved somehow with Havergal Brian - both the quality of the stories he told, and also some stray internet posting reflecting more juried-contributions, suggest that. Of course, he was not a timpanist or even a professional musician. As a timpanist, he once said that his favorite opera was Sonnambula, because you played the overture and then went home; a cursory listen to any recording, much less opening a score, would have told him to find another opera. And as someone pointed out, he was NEVER posting from Czechia - aol isn't a home service there. And yes, he totally fluffed it on Joyce Hatto (those who read him would believe that he bought thousands of dollars of her 'recordings' and made the trip - almost by pack mule - from Prague to her home for the funeral). He was hardly the only person to be fooled, however, as we all know. He also found the perfect alibi to not ever being 'tested' by a piece of music - he claimed his computer didn't have a sound card because the level of reproduction was too poor for him. That's some kind of genius. I do believe that he was the same gentleman who posted about hedgehogs and buses (he clearly had a mania for trains, something I now understand much better), and a hatred for the Royal Family, and all of those things are echoed in the so-called 'other' Alan Watkins in various other groups.
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
David Morison
Jan 17, 2019, 4:59:44 AM1/17/19
to
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David Morison
Jan 17, 2019, 5:01:15 AM1/17/19
to
On Tuesday, May 2, 2017 at 2:26:36 PM UTC-7, Alan Hayward wrote:
> A post to a private Google group reports that Alan Watkins died last October from a massive heart attack. Older RMCR contributors and readers will remember Mr Watkins as one of the more bizarre posters to this NG. Whatever we thought of some of his remarkable flights of fancy, he did have a considerable knowledge of music and performers and news of his passing is passed on with sadness.
> A post to a private Google group reports that Alan Watkins died last October from a massive heart attack. Older RMCR contributors and readers will remember Mr Watkins as one of the more bizarre posters to this NG. Whatever we thought of some of his remarkable flights of fancy, he did have a considerable knowledge of music and performers and news of his passing is passed on with sadness.
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williamal...@gmail.com
Jan 17, 2019, 8:39:39 PM1/17/19
to
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Andrew Clarke
Jan 17, 2019, 10:19:28 PM1/17/19
to
Perfectly right. Also Alan may have had a friend well-versed in the buses and ferries of the Highlands and Islands, hence the numerous non-musical posts on working for David McBrayne as a student "temp". To make all this more probable, he invented a degree from the University of Glasgow for which that august institution has no record :-(.
The "red mists" of irrational anger were presumably the cause of the various expletive-laden posts to various groups, which he always attributed to his nephew using his e-mail account when he wasn't looking.
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nmsz...@gmail.com
Jan 21, 2019, 12:04:27 PM1/21/19
to
On Monday, January 21, 2019 at 11:13:20 AM UTC-5, williamal...@gmail.com wrote:
> mandag 21. januar 2019 17.07.09 UTC+1 skrev williamal...@gmail.com følgende:
> > I get the impression that Alan probably did the bus stuff and let the Dvorak Society take care of the music side of things including the many fairly convincing anecdotes .
>
> A tale of two conductors if you like .
A tall tale by whoever.
> mandag 21. januar 2019 17.07.09 UTC+1 skrev williamal...@gmail.com følgende:
>
> A tale of two conductors if you like .
A tall tale by whoever.
Raymond Hall
Jan 21, 2019, 5:12:29 PM1/21/19
to
> A tall tale by whoever.
Alan Watkins told many of them. It became obvious after a certain amount of time that things didn't quite add up. His tales were full of embellishments, mostly known to every man and his dog, ... such as Dvorak's love of trains, his ride on one to collect his honorary degree, taxis in Prague taking the longest route for strangers (as if at all unique for one city), and many other well known facts about Czechoslovakia, that in the end we ended up not really knowing anything new.
He wasn't objectionable by any means, and seemed like a decent enough man, caught up in his (Walter Mitty - like) persona. His love for Slavic music and culture is shared by many of us, and in this sense he knew he had a willing audience.
Ray Hall, Taree
Andrew Clarke
Jan 22, 2019, 3:10:10 AM1/22/19
to
BTW the cabdrivers of Prague are/were particularly notorious for their bare-faced robbery of foreigners, especially those travelling from the airport. Otherwise, Prague is not known for its crime or inhospitality.
What Alan gave us was enthusiasm. Of course he pulled the legs of a lot of stuffed shirts in this group and on that virtual toilet door rec.music.opera, and these persons are probably the ones who still find him guilty by association. I wonder if these people found Frank Sinatra guilty of association, meaning guilty of concrete shoes and bombs and protection rackets, rather than selling a few more copies of some old doll ostensibly playing in old age just about everything written for the piano.
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
Raymond Hall
Jan 22, 2019, 3:38:51 PM1/22/19
to
-Did Dvorak really ride in the cab of the locomotive hauling the train to
-Cambridge? Do you have a source for this?
I have definitely read this somewhere but cannot locate a source, maybe from a sleeve-note, etc. Possibly this story maybe embellishment, but trains regularly ran between London and Cambridge, about every 10 minutes, a journey lasting about an hour.
Another fact with many sources, is Dvorak's love of pigeons.
Ray Hall, Taree
Andrew Clarke
Jan 23, 2019, 10:27:30 AM1/23/19
to
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDJsgtoizj8>
Happy days indeed ...
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
>
> Ray Hall, Taree
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