Coordination of music and ballet during the New Year's Concert from Vienna - this is how it's done!
M forever
produced ballet segments, are coordinated so well during the New
Year's Concert from Vienna.
So I emailed the ORF and asked. I received a very detailed answer: the
pre-produced ballet segments and the live performance aren't
coordinated at all. They record the music for those segments at a
rehearsal in September and then use the recording to film the ballet
segments. During the concert, when the applause from the preceding
piece is fading away, they crossfade to the pre-produced film (with
the audio from the previous recording). The conductor has a small red
"traffic light" at or near his music stand. It tells him when the
video is rolling so he can start the performance of that piece. So the
people in the hall hear the music live (obviously) while the people in
front of the TV see - and hear - the pre-produced video. When the
segment is over, they use a static image from the hall with no
audience in it (ceiling, flowers, columns) to crossfade back into the
live performance during the applause.
Some of the segments (this year the Blue Danube) are actually
completely live. In that case, they have an additional broadcasting
van at the dancing location which is linked to the main broadcasting
van at the Musikverein via a fiber optic network. They play the live
sound at the dancing location and send the live video back to the van
at the MV where image and sound are mixed and then sent out into the
world.
For those who can read Nazi, here is the complete reply from the ORF:
Sehr geehrter Herr Schaffer,
danke für Ihr E-Mail.
Hier die Antwort unserer Technischen Direktion:
Es gibt bei der Fernsehübertragung, technisch gesehen, 2 Arten von
Ballettbeiträgen:
1. Die voraufgezeichnete Balletteinspielung
2. Die Live Ballettzuspielung
ad 1.) Für die Vorproduktion (Aufzeichnung) des Ballettbeitrages, wird
bereits im September der Tonträger (das Playback) im Musikverein, bei
einer vorgezogenen Probe, der Wiener Philharmoniker, unter der Leitung
des jeweiligen Dirigenten des Neujahrskonzerts, das jeweilige
Musikstück voraufgezeichnet. Heuer standen für das Neujahrskonzert
2011, die Musikstücke „Mein Lebenslauf ist Lieb und Lust“ J. Strauß
und „Aus der Ferne“ J. Strauß, auf dem Programm.
Nach der Bearbeitung der Tonaufnahme (diese wird in Mehrspurtechnik
abgemischt und zu einem 5.1 Ton-Endprodukt in Dolby Digital Qualität
verarbeitet) wird das Audio-Masterband mit einem durchgehenden
Timecode versehen. Dieser Tonträger dient als Playback bei den
Ballettaufzeichnungen. Für das Neujahrskonzert 2011, wurden im
Dezember 2010, die Ballettaufzeichnungen aus den Räumen der Wr.
Staatsoper (Aus der Ferne) und aus dem Schloss Laudon (Mein Lebenslauf
ist Lieb und Lust) aufgezeichnet. Diese Aufzeichnungen werden
wiederrum im Schneideraum bearbeitet und zu einem Zuspielband für die
Live Sendung beim Neujahrskonzert 2011 konfektioniert.
Nun der synchronisations Trick: Der Dirigent hat neben seinem
Dirigentenpult eine Rotlichtampel. Das heißt, nach dem Applaus des
vorhergegangenen Musikstückes starten wir im Übertragungswagen die
Zuspiel-MAZ (bzw. vom Server) und blenden Bild und Ton auf die
Zuspielung. Auf die Ampelsignalisation beginnt der Dirigent, das
Musikstück zu dirigieren, welches aber nur im Musikverein zu hören
ist, die Fernsehzuschauer hören den im September voraufgezeichneten
Ton und sehen die im Dezember produzierte Balletteinspielung, daher
auch völlig synchron. Nach Ende der Ballettzuspielung blendet man über
ein neutrales Bild (Decke, Blumen, Säulen, Totale...) in den
Musikverein zurück und mischt den Zuspielungs-Ton in den Applaus-Ton
des Musikvereins über und ist so wieder live.
ad 2.) Dies ist sicherlich die technisch aufwendigere Variante, bei
der wirklich alles live abläuft. Im Vorjahr erfolgte die Live-
Ballettzuspielung aus dem Kunsthistorischen Museum. Dort stand
ebenfalls ein Übertragungswagen, der über eine aufwendige
Glasfaserverkabelung mit dem Hauptübertragungswagen in Verbindung
stand. Im Zuge der Live Sendung wird der Ton vom Musikverein zur
Außenstelle (Kunsthist.Museum) übertragen, und die Räumlichkeiten, in
denen getanzt wird, mit dem Originalton, aus dem Musikverein
übertragen bzw. beschallt. Die Tanzeinlagen werden zum Live-Zeitpunkt
im Übertragungswagen, bei der Außenstelle (nur Bild) gemischt und an
den Hauptübertragungswagen beim Musikverein zurückgesendet und auf
Sendung gegeben.
Der Vorteil dieser Übertragungsart ist, dass man jederzeit mit dem
Musikverein synchron ist und zwischen Ballett und Orchester hin und
her blenden kann.
Heuer erfolgten die Live Balletteinspielungen (Donauwalzer) direkt aus
den Nebenräumlichkeiten des Musikvereins, wodurch alles an Ort und
Stelle mit einem Übertragungswagen abgewickelt werden konnte.
Freundliche Grüße
Anna Sommer
Generaldirektion | Marketing und Kommunikation
ORF Kundendienst
Christopher Webber
>The question came up how the music and the ballet, especially the pre-
>produced ballet segments, are coordinated so well during the New Year's
>Concert from Vienna.
Michael, well done you! It is, then, as I rather suspected. Thank you
for taking the trouble to find out the sordid truth.
--
___________________________
Christopher Webber, Blackheath, London, UK.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Webber
http://www.zarzuela.net
Bob Harper
wrote:
Yes, thanks. Quite interesting, though I'm not sure 'sordid' is
appropriate, unlwss (as I suspect) your tongue was planted firmly in
your cheek :)
Bob Harper
Christopher Webber
>Quite interesting, though I'm not sure 'sordid' is appropriate, unlwss
>(as I suspect) your tongue was planted firmly in your cheek :)
Not quite. But one eyebrow was firmly raised above what used to be my
hairline.
"Deceitful" though, for sure! Any watcher who thought they were getting
100% live New Year Vienna was actually getting some September thrown in
as well.
I wonder if they were using the pre-recorded segments in the Radio feeds
too?
--
___________________________
Gerard
>
> Hier die Antwort unserer Technischen Direktion:
>
> Ballettbeitr�gen:
>
> 1. Die voraufgezeichnete Balletteinspielung
>
> 2. Die Live Ballettzuspielung
>
> bereits im September der Tontr�ger (das Playback) im Musikverein, bei
> einer vorgezogenen Probe, der Wiener Philharmoniker, unter der Leitung
> des jeweiligen Dirigenten des Neujahrskonzerts, das jeweilige
> 2011, die Musikst�cke �Mein Lebenslauf ist Lieb und Lust� J. Strau�
> und �Aus der Ferne� J. Strau�, auf dem Programm.
>
> Nach der Bearbeitung der Tonaufnahme (diese wird in Mehrspurtechnik
> verarbeitet) wird das Audio-Masterband mit einem durchgehenden
> Ballettaufzeichnungen. F�r das Neujahrskonzert 2011, wurden im
> Dezember 2010, die Ballettaufzeichnungen aus den R�umen der Wr.
> Staatsoper (Aus der Ferne) und aus dem Schloss Laudon (Mein Lebenslauf
> ist Lieb und Lust) aufgezeichnet. Diese Aufzeichnungen werden
> Live Sendung beim Neujahrskonzert 2011 konfektioniert.
>
> Nun der synchronisations Trick: Der Dirigent hat neben seinem
> vorhergegangenen Musikst�ckes starten wir im �bertragungswagen die
> Zuspiel-MAZ (bzw. vom Server) und blenden Bild und Ton auf die
> Zuspielung. Auf die Ampelsignalisation beginnt der Dirigent, das
> ist, die Fernsehzuschauer h�ren den im September voraufgezeichneten
> Ton und sehen die im Dezember produzierte Balletteinspielung, daher
> ein neutrales Bild (Decke, Blumen, S�ulen, Totale...) in den
> Musikverein zur�ck und mischt den Zuspielungs-Ton in den Applaus-Ton
> des Musikvereins �ber und ist so wieder live.
>
> ad 2.) Dies ist sicherlich die technisch aufwendigere Variante, bei
> Ballettzuspielung aus dem Kunsthistorischen Museum. Dort stand
> Glasfaserverkabelung mit dem Haupt�bertragungswagen in Verbindung
> stand. Im Zuge der Live Sendung wird der Ton vom Musikverein zur
> denen getanzt wird, mit dem Originalton, aus dem Musikverein
> im �bertragungswagen, bei der Au�enstelle (nur Bild) gemischt und an
> den Haupt�bertragungswagen beim Musikverein zur�ckgesendet und auf
> Sendung gegeben.
>
> Der Vorteil dieser �bertragungsart ist, dass man jederzeit mit dem
> Musikverein synchron ist und zwischen Ballett und Orchester hin und
> her blenden kann.
>
> Heuer erfolgten die Live Balletteinspielungen (Donauwalzer) direkt aus
> Stelle mit einem �bertragungswagen abgewickelt werden konnte.
>
> Freundliche Gr��e
> Anna Sommer
>
> Generaldirektion | Marketing und Kommunikation
>
> ORF Kundendienst
Sounds like the same Schwindel as before.
ivanmaxim
wrote:
Yes thanks for the detailed reply!!!! Wagnr fan
M forever
wrote:
> Bob Harper <bob.har...@comcast.net> writes:
> >Quite interesting, though I'm not sure 'sordid' is appropriate, unlwss
> >(as I suspect) your tongue was planted firmly in your cheek :)
>
> Not quite. But one eyebrow was firmly raised above what used to be my
> hairline.
>
> "Deceitful" though, for sure! Any watcher who thought they were getting
> 100% live New Year Vienna was actually getting some September thrown in
> as well.
Is that a big problem?
> I wonder if they were using the pre-recorded segments in the Radio feeds
> too?
Dunno. I will ask my source.
herman
wrote:
>
> I wonder if they were using the pre-recorded segments in the Radio feeds
> too?
> --
obviously not.
M forever
How is that obvious? It would make sense, since there is no need for
image-sound coordination, but how can we know for sure?
Christopher Webber
>How is that obvious? It would make sense, since there is no need for
>image-sound coordination, but how can we know for sure?
There is (in British relays at least) a need for Radio/TV coverage
co-ordination, as some people like to watch whilst getting the superior
radio broadcast sound in simulcasts.
The British radio/tv link man Petroc Trelawney wasn't in the hall
either, as he'd seen and heard the show live the night before. He was
watching/listening to the same programme as the rest of us, from
somewhere other (unspecified) in Vienna.
Christopher Webber
>There is (in British relays at least) a need for Radio/TV coverage
>co-ordination, as some people like to watch whilst getting the superior
>radio broadcast sound in simulcasts.
And before anyone asks, at the Proms for sure they hold the pictures up
for a couple of seconds to co-ordinate with the digital radio delay.
Thoughtful old Auntie Beeb!
Steve de Mena
> The question came up how the music and the ballet, especially the pre-
> produced ballet segments, are coordinated so well during the New
> Year's Concert from Vienna.
>
> So I emailed the ORF and asked. I received a very detailed answer
Thanks, that was very informative & interesting. I always wondered
about this.
Steve
herman
wrote:
> M forever <ms1...@gmail.com> writes:
> >How is that obvious? It would make sense, since there is no need for
> >image-sound coordination, but how can we know for sure?
>
> There is (in British relays at least) a need for Radio/TV coverage
> co-ordination, as some people like to watch whilst getting the superior
> radio broadcast sound in simulcasts.
>
BBC Prom on TV while listening to FM the signal doesn't travel with
the same speed, so there's no coordination anyway.
Gerard
It seems remarkable to me that this was unknown to many.
I remember this (or something like this) was the usual thing they did since
Boskovsky (or before), and that it was no secret - it was told during the
concert broadcast by the tv presentator more than once (which was an usual
practice also - every 10 sentences he said something like "like I said").
Alan Dawes
<79977405-28a5-4753...@w17g2000yqh.googlegroups.com>,
When we only had analogue TV the syncing with FM radio3 was very good
because the recieving equipment (TV and radio) in the home added no
discernable delay but with digital radio and digital TV there is a delay
introduced by the receiving equipment which varies between manufacturers
and models so whatever the BBC do by introducing delays to try to sync the
signals, it will not work for every combination of digital TV and radio
found in the home.
Alan
--
alan....@argonet.co.uk
alan....@riscos.org
Using an Acorn RiscPC
Christopher Webber
>so whatever the BBC do by introducing delays to try to sync the
>signals, it will not work for every combination of digital TV and radio
>found in the home.
That's right, Alan. I don't know whether you heard a rather interesting
feature on R4 "Feedback", when the technical person from R3 discussed
this same difficulty. They are currently synching TV "Freeview" (*not*
Sky or Virgin) with the standard Digital Radio delay of about 2 seconds.
El Klauso
several Vienna Philharmonic Gold Coins to have them drop the ballet
completely and concentrate on the music making.
Christopher Webber
Yes - how much more interesting to hear how conductor and orchestra were
playing their Strauss on the day itself, rather than in studio
conditions three months earlier. There's an issue here, for sure.
M forever
wrote:
> El Klauso <ChasJKl...@aol.com> writes:
> >A wonderfully interesting and informative posting; However, I'd pay
> >several Vienna Philharmonic Gold Coins to have them drop the ballet
> >completely and concentrate on the music making.
>
> Yes - how much more interesting to hear how conductor and orchestra were
> playing their Strauss on the day itself, rather than in studio
> conditions three months earlier. There's an issue here, for sure.
I think it's pretty safe to say that the way they play two short
pieces of music during the concert is probably almost exactly the same
as when they made the recording. And you do get the same orchestra and
conductor.
Steve de Mena
> Steve de Mena wrote:
>> On 1/13/11 9:54 AM, M forever wrote:
>>> The question came up how the music and the ballet, especially the
>>> pre- produced ballet segments, are coordinated so well during the
>>> New Year's Concert from Vienna.
>>>
>>> So I emailed the ORF and asked. I received a very detailed answer
>>
>> about this.
>>
>> Steve
>
> It seems remarkable to me that this was unknown to many.
> I remember this (or something like this) was the usual thing they did since
> Boskovsky (or before), and that it was no secret - it was told during the
> concert broadcast by the tv presentator more than once (which was an usual
> practice also - every 10 sentences he said something like "like I said").
I don't remember this ever mentioned in the U.S. broadcasts and I have
been watching them since the 1970s. For a long time I wondered if the
rest of the world even saw the dance sequences.
Steve
Gerard
Here (Netherlands) we did see the dancing. In former years there was a lot more
dancing during the broadcast than during recent years.
I don't remember however since when I've seen the New Year's concerts on tv, but
I guess it's almost as long ago (as your experience).
The fact that it was told (about the dancing, the music and the coordination)
here has something to do with that presentator, I guess. *If* there was
something he could talk about, he would find it and talk about it. He loved his
own voice so much that it was hard to stop him; saying things again was usual.
He was so eager to talk that you could hear his irritation when the damned music
interrupted his majesty's talking.
Christopher Webber
>I think it's pretty safe to say that the way they play two short pieces
>of music during the concert is probably almost exactly the same as when
>they made the recording. And you do get the same orchestra and
>conductor.
All of which is absolutely true. [Although I'd suggest that with "Mein
Lebenslauf ist Lieb und Lust" you're getting something approaching a
short tone poem with an ebb and flow of moods (and tempi) which is
complex enough for no two performances to be able to absolutely
replicate one another - leaving aside the matter of the "frisson" of any
live performance.]
You're right, of course: it's no big deal in the final reckoning. But I
wonder how many people - despite what might or might not be said to them
on air in relays around the world - have realised that they are getting
a TV and/or radio entertainment which is in fact taken from multiple
live/recorded musical sources.
The evidence from this Group at least suggests that quite a few would be
at the very least surprised by what you've so helpfully found out.