George Szell And The "4 Intro Bars" To Brahms 4th Symphony

Mark S

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Dec 20, 2012, 2:02:01 PM12/20/12

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I assume many of you know that George Szell discovered a discarded 4-
bar intro to the first movement of Brahms 4th. Perhaps you don't know
that he orchestrated that intro and recorded the same with (I assume)
the Cleveland Orchestra. That intro may be heard in this 3:31 minute
clip from a radio program in which Dr Szell discusses this little
piece of esoterica:

http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/George_Szell_and_Brahms_Sym1.4_i.mp3

You can also read conductor Kenneth Woods' take on these 4 "Szell"
bars here:

http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2010/06/17/george-szells-little-brahms-revelation/

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Thornhill

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Dec 21, 2012, 8:09:23 AM12/21/12

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On Dec 20, 2:02 pm, Mark S <markstenr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I assume many of you know that George Szell discovered a discarded 4-
> bar intro to the first movement of Brahms 4th. Perhaps you don't know
> that he orchestrated that intro and recorded the same with (I assume)
> the Cleveland Orchestra. That intro may be heard in this 3:31 minute
> clip from a radio program in which Dr Szell discusses this little
> piece of esoterica:
>

> http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/George_Szell...

>
> You can also read conductor Kenneth Woods' take on these 4 "Szell"
> bars here:
>

> http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2010/06/17/george-szells-little-brahms-...

Pretty interesting. Thanks for posting.

I cannot recall ever reading about that in program or liner notes. I
guess it doesn't get discussed much that the second movement of the
first was completely rewritten and that the original version is
available (and has been recorded).

William Sommerwerck

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Dec 21, 2012, 8:10:35 AM12/21/12

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> I assume many of you know that George Szell discovered a discarded 4-
> bar intro to the first movement of Brahms 4th. Perhaps you don't know
> that he orchestrated that intro and recorded the same with (I assume)
> the Cleveland Orchestra. That intro may be heard in this 3:31 minute
> clip from a radio program in which Dr Szell discusses this little
> piece of esoterica:

http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/George_Szell_and_Brahms_Sym1.4_i.mp3

Fascinating. I agree -- it doesn't work. The exciting thing about the opening
as it is, is that there's a great sense of immediate tension. You'd don't want
to "lead into" it.

Had Brahms come up with something akin to the opening of the Eroica...

Juan I. Cahis

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Dec 21, 2012, 8:43:18 AM12/21/12

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Dear friends:

Thornhill <seth...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Dec 20, 2:02 pm, Mark S <markstenr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> I assume many of you know that George Szell discovered a discarded 4-
>> bar intro to the first movement of Brahms 4th. Perhaps you don't know
>> that he orchestrated that intro and recorded the same with (I assume)
>> the Cleveland Orchestra. That intro may be heard in this 3:31 minute
>> clip from a radio program in which Dr Szell discusses this little
>> piece of esoterica:
>>
>> http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/George_Szell...
>>
>> You can also read conductor Kenneth Woods' take on these 4 "Szell"
>> bars here:
>>
>> http://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2010/06/17/george-szells-little-brahms-...
>
> Pretty interesting. Thanks for posting.

Very interesting, thanks a lot!!!

>
> I cannot recall ever reading about that in program or liner notes. I
> guess it doesn't get discussed much that the second movement of the
> first was completely rewritten and that the original version is
> available (and has been recorded).

Could you mention a recording of it? I would like a lot to hear it.

--
Enviado desde mi iPad usando NewsTap, Juan I. Cahis, Santiago de Chile.

Ricky Jimenez

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Dec 21, 2012, 10:47:58 AM12/21/12

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This way, doesn't the symphony start the same e minor chord the finale
begins with, including trombones? Maybe it would make sense if Brahms
had used trombones again in the first movement. Its coda loses
something because it doesn't have them.

Thornhill

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Dec 21, 2012, 1:55:41 PM12/21/12

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On Dec 21, 8:43 am, Juan I. Cahis <jiclbchSINBAS...@attglobal.net>
wrote:
> Dear friends:

Mackerras.

Norman Schwartz

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Dec 21, 2012, 2:28:57 PM12/21/12

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I don't think this Mackerras does it:
http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Johannes-Brahms-1833-1897-Symphonien-Nr-1-4/hnum/8154370

The opening of the 4th can be heard when clicking it on the complete set.

Thornhill

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Dec 21, 2012, 5:27:38 PM12/21/12

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> I don't think this Mackerras does it:http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Johannes-Brahms-1833-189...

>
> The opening of the 4th can be heard when clicking it on the complete set.

I'm talking about the original version of the 2nd movement in the
first symphony

Norman Schwartz

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Dec 22, 2012, 2:02:20 PM12/22/12

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Yes and thanks, I have that Telarc CD-80463 and it indeed shows track 5 as
an alternate movement II, "Initial Performing Version of the Second Movement
[8:35]

Apologies, the subject of the thread involving Brahms 4th Symphony, I
thought you was talking about it. I suppose there is no recording which has
those original "4 Into Bars".

Mark S

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Dec 22, 2012, 4:18:29 PM12/22/12

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On Dec 22, 11:02 am, "Norman Schwartz" <n...@optonline.net> wrote:
>
>
> Apologies, the subject of the thread involving Brahms 4th Symphony, I
> thought you was talking about it. I suppose there is no recording which has
> those original "4 Into Bars".

Outside of the recording that's part of the audio clip I linked to, I
don't think so.

Norman Schwartz

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Dec 23, 2012, 12:46:16 PM12/23/12

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Thanks, Mr. Stenroos. I'll stop searching for one.

John Wyman

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Mar 12, 2014, 10:38:41 AM3/12/14

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Chailly's new Brahms set includes the new opening to the 4th Symphony as an alternate track.
You can hear it for free on Amazon's web page
ASIN: B00E6G23TA