Re: American Jewry's Stunted Sons - Ruth R. Wisse

[Dan Koren]

On Saturday, January 14, 2023 at 9:56:40 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
>
> Dan, tell me, why do you hate Israel so much?

What an absurd notion. I am Israeli and very
prooud of it. This does not mean one has to
accept Netanyahu as PM. Check this:

https://jewishjournal.com/commentary/columnist/354963/80000-israelis-march-against-arrogance

As for the future, please stay focused on
German philosopher and composers. You
don't understand them either, however it
is much harder for the audience to tell.

dk

[Dan Koren]

On Saturday, January 14, 2023 at 9:57:22 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
>
> https://mosaicmagazine.com/observation/arts-culture/2022/06/american-jewrys-stunted-sons/

If Mme Wisse is so concerned about the future
of Judaism and of the Jewish people, why does
she teach at Harvard, rather than at any of the
great universities in Israel? Why does she teach
Yiddish rather than Hebrew? Why does she list
her nationality as Canadian rather than Israeli?

If Marc S. is so concerned about the future of
Judaism and of the Jewish people, why does
he not move to Israel and convert to Judaism?

I ask the question ....

dk

[Frank Berger]

On 1/15/2023 1:57 AM, Dan Koren wrote:
> On Saturday, January 14, 2023 at 9:56:40 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
>>
>> Dan, tell me, why do you hate Israel so much?
>
> What an absurd notion. I am Israeli and very
> prooud of it. This does not mean one has to
> accept Netanyahu as PM. Check this:
>
> https://jewishjournal.com/commentary/columnist/354963/80000-israelis-march-against-arrogance
>

Doesn't load. Went to the Jewish Journal web site and couldn't find the article.

[Frank Berger]

On 1/15/2023 2:07 AM, Dan Koren wrote:
> On Saturday, January 14, 2023 at 9:57:22 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
>>
>> https://mosaicmagazine.com/observation/arts-culture/2022/06/american-jewrys-stunted-sons/
>
> If Mme Wisse is so concerned about the future
> of Judaism and of the Jewish people, why does
> she teach at Harvard, rather than at any of the
> great universities in Israel?

I don't see why one could assume that teaching at an Israeli institution would be better for the Jewish people than at Harvard.

Why does she teach
> Yiddish rather than Hebrew?

Because she is Yiddish scholar (although she speaks fluent Hebrew).

Why does she list
> her nationality as Canadian rather than Israeli?
>

She grew up in Montreal and is Canadian. AFAIK she is not Israeli. I believe she lived in Israel for a while, but I don't know how long.

> If Marc S. is so concerned about the future of
> Judaism and of the Jewish people, why does
> he not move to Israel and convert to Judaism?
>
> I ask the question ....
>
> dk

I don't get your point. Is she not qualified to speak about Israeli issues because she is not Israeli and/or doesn't live there? As you so frequently say here, anyone can talk about anything.

Obviously, as a conservative she is going to be automatically hated by millions on the Left.

[Dan Koren]

On Saturday, January 14, 2023 at 11:34:40 PM UTC-8, Frank Berger wrote:
> On 1/15/2023 2:07 AM, Dan Koren wrote:
> > On Saturday, January 14, 2023 at 9:57:22 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
> >>
> >> https://mosaicmagazine.com/observation/arts-culture/2022/06/american-jewrys-stunted-sons/
> >
> > If Mme Wisse is so concerned about the future
> > of Judaism and of the Jewish people, why does
> > she teach at Harvard, rather than at any of the
> > great universities in Israel?
>
> I don't see why one could assume that teaching at
> an Israeli institution would be better for the Jewish
> people than at Harvard.

This is not about doing something that is "better for
the Jews". It is about earning standing to lecture
other Jews about what it means to be Jewish. In
my view, Jews who choose to live outside Israel
have no standing.

> > Why does she teach Yiddish rather than Hebrew?
> Because she is Yiddish scholar (although she
> speaks fluent Hebrew).

Clearly teaching the language of the Ashkenazy
Jewish diaspora does nothing for the future of
the Jewish people as a nation and as a culture.

> > Why does she list her nationality as Canadian
> > rather than Israeli?
>
> She grew up in Montreal and is Canadian. AFAIK
> she is not Israeli. I believe she lived in Israel for a
> while, but I don't know how long.

We all know this. It was a retorical question.

> > If Marc S. is so concerned about the future of
> > Judaism and of the Jewish people, why does
> > he not move to Israel and convert to Judaism?
> >
> > I ask the question ....
>

> I don't get your point. Is she not qualified to speak
> about Israeli issues because she is not Israeli and/or
> doesn't live there? As you so frequently say here,
> anyone can talk about anything.

The matter at hand is not freedom of speech per se.
Of course she can speak and write about anything.
The issue is her standing. She has none in my eyes.

> Obviously, as a conservative she is going to be
> automatically hated by millions on the Left.

Non sequitur.

dk

[Andy Evans]

I REALLY don't want to see threads here glorifying Netanyahu after his past record and current policies.

But it seems there's no way of stopping this ultra-right stuff from appearing.

[Frank Berger]

In my view a person has standing if the speak sense. Nothing more.

[Frank Berger]

On 1/15/2023 4:25 AM, Andy Evans wrote:
> I REALLY don't want to see threads here glorifying Netanyahu after his past record and current policies.
>
> But it seems there's no way of stopping this ultra-right stuff from appearing.

Thanks for sharing.

[Dan Koren]

> In my view a person has standing
> if the speak sense. Nothing more.

Well, no! One person's sense can
be another person's non-sense.

"Standing" means the person is
"qualified" to speak about the
matter, regardless of what
they say.

Depending on the matter at
hand, "standing" may have
dimensions beyond mere
"knowledge" of the matter,
e.g. does the person have
"skin in the game", or does
the person meet ethical
and/or legal requirements.

dk

[Lawrence Kart]

FWIW the great Israeli novelist A.B. Yehoshua said: "A full Jewish life could only be had in the Jewish state." He claimed that Jews elsewhere were only "playing with Judaism. Diaspora Judaism is masturbation." In Israel, he said, it is "the real thing."

[Frank Berger]

.>>

>> dk
> FWIW the great Israeli novelist A.B. Yehoshua said: "A full Jewish life could only be had in the Jewish >state." He claimed that Jews elsewhere were only "playing with Judaism. Diaspora Judaism is masturbation." >In Israel, he said, it is "the real thing."

All-or-nothing bullshit.

[HT]

> FWIW the great Israeli novelist A.B. Yehoshua said: "A full Jewish life could only be had in the Jewish state." He claimed that Jews elsewhere were only "playing with Judaism. Diaspora Judaism is masturbation." In Israel, he said, it is "the real thing."

One could maintain as well that only Diaspora Judaism is full Judaism. In the Diaspora Judaism has become what it is - in all its forms.

Henk

[Frank Berger]

This statement makes sense only if one accepts a definition that alternative forms of "Judaism," are in fact, Judaism. This is separate from the question of who is a Jew. From the Orthodox point of view, a Jew is a person whose mother was Jewish or who had a conversion under the supervision of an Orthodox rabbi. It has zero to do with if or how one expresses his Judaism. It is totally consistent for the Orthodox to believe that the Reform or Reconstructionist movements are invalid expressions of Judaism or a different religion altogether, while at the same time recognizing many of the members of those movements as "valid" Jews. of course those alternative movements have there own definitions of what a Jew is. It's not a question of what "is," it's a question of what you believe or choose to believe.

[Frank Berger]

Again with the all-or-nothing attitude. Sure, an Israeli citizen living in Israel has the most "skin in the game." This is manifested by their right to vote in Israeli elections. But a disapora Jew, religious or not, is a potential Israel and may well have relatives who are Israeli and/or who live in Israel anf therefore has some skin in the game, if not as much. It makes no sense to say the latter's views about Israel or it's policies have no validity.

[Dan Koren]

> Again with the all-or-nothing attitude.
> Sure, an Israeli citizen living in Israel
> has the most "skin in the game." This
> is manifested by their right to vote in
> Israeli elections. But a disapora Jew,
> religious or not, is a potential Israel
> and may well have relatives who are
> Israeli and/or who live in Israel anf
> therefore has some skin in the game,
> if not as much. It makes no sense to
> say the latter's views about Israel or
> it's policies have no validity.

The balance of opinion in Israel is
that those who do not live there
have no right to vote.

This includes citizens who live or
travel temporarily out of Israel,
and cannot vote while being
out of the country. The only
exceptions are for maritime
and airline crews, and for
government employees
posted overseas, e.g.
embassy or consular
staff.

While there is certainly a
difference between voting
and merely voicing one's
opinions, most Israelis
tend to subscribe to the
view that one's opinions
do not matter if they do
not live there.

dk

[MickeyBoy]

On Saturday, January 14, 2023 at 11:56:40 PM UTC-6, Marc S wrote:
> American Jewry's Stunted Sons - an essay by Ruth R. Wisse, professor emerita at Harvard
>

An appreciation of Prof. Wisse:

https://missouriintelligencer.wordpress.com/2014/05/12/the-closing-of-the-collegiate-mind-by-ruth-r-wisse/

Her views on the origin of the Yiddish dialect are as well worth reading about as they are rather unconventional.

[Frank Berger]

As I said, an all-or-nothing view on this makes no sense. The vast majority of countries have absentee voting. The has been legislation proposed in Israel to provide for it. I would guess it has no chance to pass under a conservative government, but that's just a guess.

[Lawrence Kart]

I've heard it said that Israelis are not Jews but Israelis.

[Frank Berger]

One would have know what was meant by "Jews" to make sense of this. This kind of statement is meaningless without context. Did the person who said it have any knowledge of Israel? Was he Jewish?

The population of Israel is as diverse as can be imagined. White, Black, Asian, ultra orthodox, not so ultra orthodox, secular, sephardic, ashkenaz. It is true that a minority of Israelis are Orthodox. But so are a minority of Jews outside Israel. So I have know idea what kind of sense the statement makes.

[Frank Berger]

I assume you mean the Yiddish language?

[Gerard]

Op 2023-01-16 om 05:43 schreef Frank Berger:

And large, small, fat, lean, smart, dumb?

[Bob Harper]

On 1/14/23 11:34 PM, Frank Berger wrote:

>
> Obviously, as a conservative she is going to be automatically hated by
> millions on the Left.
>
>
>
>

Bingo, Frank. To those millions, that is her real sin.

Bob Harper

[Frank Berger]

Missing the point, as always, Gerard.

[Gerard]

Op 2023-01-16 om 19:35 schreef Frank Berger:

Wasn't the point "diverse"?

[Frank Berger]

Diversity in areas that are relevant to the conversation.

[Lawrence Kart]

Blame me if you will, but I was thinking of this passage from French sociologist George Friedmann's book "The End of the Jewish People?" (1967)

'There is no Jewish nation. There is an Israeli nation. The state that came into existence as a result of Herzl's prophecies is not a 'Jewish state.' The Israeli state is creating an imperious national state that is conscious of itself but does not include in that consciousness belong to a 'Jewish people.' There seems to be a widening gap (among the extremist zealots it is an impassable abyss) between that part of the population that sees itself as essentially Israeli and that other part, consisting of the Orthodox, that regard itself as essentially Jewish."

Friedmann, comments the late George Lichtheim, "accepts both the reality of Israeli nationhood and. the enduring strength of Jewish religious consciousness. He merely holds that they are incompatible. Israel is going to become a secular state .... as a matter of survival and and because the majority of the young are bored with religion. As for the orthodox minority, it will increasingly, Friedmann think, retreats into a mystical realm of its own.

I would add that this reading of the situation (per 1967) does not take into account if the increasing political power of the orthodox minority in today's Israel, whether this power has been more or less seized or acquiered by that minority on a more or less demographic basis or it has been in effect ceded to it by the government for political-social reasons.

[Lawrence Kart]

In my previous post "belong' should be "belonging" and "if the increasing political power" should be "of the increasing political power."

[Gerard]

Op 2023-01-16 om 20:03 schreef Frank Berger:

There is no diversity when they all are Jewish.

[HT]

Op maandag 16 januari 2023 om 22:04:19 UTC+1 schreef ljk...@aol.com:

> I would add that this reading of the situation (per 1967) does not take into account if the increasing political power of the orthodox minority in today's Israel, whether this power has been more or less seized or acquiered by that minority on a more or less demographic basis or it has been in effect ceded to it by the government for political-social reasons.

Today's Israel has very little in common with how it was in the 1960s. Extremism (religious and political) were exceptional.

Henk

[Dan Koren]

On Monday, January 16, 2023 at 2:07:30 PM UTC-8, Gerard wrote:
> Op 2023-01-16 om 20:03 schreef Frank Berger:
> >

> > Diversity in areas that are relevant to the conversation.
>
> There is no diversity when they all are Jewish.

A completely idiotic statement by a dyed in the
wool antisemite -- why are we not surprised?

What if someone said to you "there is no
diversity when they are all Christian"? Or
"all Muslim"? Or "all European"?

Find a neurosurgeon ASAP to have your
brain unfucked.

dk

[Dan Koren]

On Monday, January 16, 2023 at 2:10:14 PM UTC-8, hvt...@xs4all.nl wrote:
>
> Today's Israel has very little in common with how it was in the 1960s.

So do the Netherlands, and most other countries.

dk

[HT]

Op maandag 16 januari 2023 om 23:26:12 UTC+1 schreef dan....@gmail.com:

> So do the Netherlands, and most other countries.

I agree, including the role of political extremism. The link between state and religion no longer exists here. Only in his annual speech does the king pray for God's blessing, however, without mentioning him.

Henk

[Dan Koren]

In Israel, the link between "state" and "religion"
is only symbolic, and barely nominal. Anyone
who believes otherwise should check Tel-Aviv
bars Friday nights and Tel-Aviv beaches on a
Saturday.

dk

[Frank Berger]

Wrong-headed thinking. What is so difficult to understand that there is a historical Jewish people (Am Yisroel Chai - The Jewish People Live - is a watchword) whose religion (though not always strictly followed ) is Judaism. As I've been saying everything is not all-or-nothing, black or white. I don't understand the drive to condense, streamline and oversimplify.

> Friedmann, comments the late George Lichtheim, "accepts both the reality of Israeli nationhood and. the enduring strength of Jewish religious consciousness. He merely holds that they are incompatible. Israel is going to become a secular state .... as a matter of survival and and because the majority of the young are bored with religion. As for the orthodox minority, it will increasingly, Friedmann think, retreats into a mystical realm of its own.
>
> I would add that this reading of the situation (per 1967) does not take into account if the increasing >political power of the orthodox minority in today's Israel,

And its massive growth in numbers. So much for that prediction.

.whether this power has been more or less seized or acquiered by that minority on a more or less >demographic basis or it has been in effect ceded to it by the government for political-social reasons.

Nobody has ceded anything. It is a natural outcome of the kind of parliamentary democracy that Israel has. In the U.S. the influence of the fringe (base) is most felt in the primaries. The way the government is defined is going to affect what kind of outcome you get.

[Frank Berger]

Also false. There are Christian, Druse, Muslem, etc. Israelis.

[Frank Berger]

1960s Israel was led by left of center moderates. Today's Israel is led by right of center moderates.

[Frank Berger]

Being afraid to mention God seems extremist to me.

[HT]

> In Israel, the link between "state" and "religion"
> is only symbolic, and barely nominal. Anyone
> who believes otherwise should check Tel-Aviv
> bars Friday nights and Tel-Aviv beaches on a
> Saturday.

<g> If only Tel-Aviv were Israel.

I can't find an analogy for us. I would hate it if Amsterdam were the Netherlands. It would make matters far worse. We don't seem to have a redeeming quality.

Henk

[Frank Berger]

It's called diversity. I thought that was supposed to be good. The secularists dominate Tel Aviv and the religious dominate Jerusalem.

[HT]

Op dinsdag 17 januari 2023 om 00:43:38 UTC+1 schreef Frank Berger:

> Being afraid to mention God seems extremist to me.

Indeed, extremist in the sense of ultra-Orthodox. In orthodoxy, also in medieval Christianity, one can only say of God what he isn't.

However, our king doesn't mention God because of the holiness of his name but because he lives in a secular age wherein God disappeared. He does, however, ask for a blessing.

Traditionally, kings are representatives of God. In that capacity, they are heads of state and state religion. By asking to bless the people, the king reminds himself and his people that his position is a special one. The difference with the beginning of the 20th century is that he can no longer say why he is so special. He has become a free floating representative.

Henk

[Dan Koren]

Amsterdam has a few nice paintings, and a
good sounding concert hall. Especially when
Herman doesn't play there.

dk

[Dan Koren]

On Monday, January 16, 2023 at 4:40:32 PM UTC-8, hvt...@xs4all.nl wrote:
>
> Traditionally, kings are representatives of God.

And queens? I ask the question ......

dk

[Frank Berger]

On 1/16/2023 7:40 PM, HT wrote:
> Op dinsdag 17 januari 2023 om 00:43:38 UTC+1 schreef Frank Berger:
>
>> Being afraid to mention God seems extremist to me.
>
> Indeed, extremist in the sense of ultra-Orthodox. In orthodoxy, also in medieval Christianity, one can only say of God what he isn't.
>

No idea what you are talking about here.

> However, our king doesn't mention God because of the holiness of his name but because he lives in a secular age wherein God disappeared. He does, however, ask for a blessing.
>

I would say we live in an age where in a lot of places the secularists have canceled even the mention of God.

[Frank Berger]

My parent traveled many times to Europe. The only place I remember they didn't like was Amsterdam. No idea why.

[Dan Koren]

On Monday, January 16, 2023 at 6:13:22 PM UTC-8, Frank Berger wrote:
> On 1/16/2023 8:03 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
> > On Monday, January 16, 2023 at 3:50:18 PM UTC-8, hvt...@xs4all.nl wrote:
> >>> In Israel, the link between "state" and "religion"
> >>> is only symbolic, and barely nominal. Anyone
> >>> who believes otherwise should check Tel-Aviv
> >>> bars Friday nights and Tel-Aviv beaches on a
> >>> Saturday.
> >>
> >> <g> If only Tel-Aviv were Israel.
> >>
> >> I can't find an analogy for us. I would hate it if
> >> Amsterdam were the Netherlands. It would
> >> make matters far worse. We don't seem
> >> to have a redeeming quality.
> >
> > Amsterdam has a few nice paintings, and a
> > good sounding concert hall. Especially when
> > Herman doesn't play there.
>

> My parent traveled many times to Europe.
> The only place I remember they didn't
> like was Amsterdam. No idea why.

Lots of residual social and cultural anti-semitism
in the air. Among all the Western Europeans the
Dutch are some of the least friendly towards Israel
and towards Jews.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fi50L6FIPwI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0stI4mXajQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWf3mqTHoGw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7ULlLTYDA8

We have relatives in the Netherlands and we hear
first hand reports of frequent incidents. Perhaps
not quite as violent as in France, yet unacceptable
in any "civilized" Western nation.

dk

[Herman]

On Tuesday, January 17, 2023 at 3:31:29 AM UTC+1, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
> We have relatives in the Netherlands and we hear
> first hand reports of frequent incidents. Perhaps
> not quite as violent as in France, yet unacceptable
> in any "civilized" Western nation.
>
> dk

well, you're posting this from a country in which the leader of one of two big parties is talking about "I want Jews counting my money" etc. Since your sole source of info seems to be youtube, here are some vids about the rise of antisemitism in the USA.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybT9LrBnVCs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maPxZEjuk1Q

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjELYYdfwpw

However, what's the difference? You're an out and out racist yourself. Ethnics is the first and only criterion for you, you judge every single thing in terms of race and ethnics, so it's no use whining if other bad people do the same.
I don't, just to be clear.

[Lawrence Kart]

RE: "the massive growth in numbers" of the Orthodox in Israel, which has led to much of the growth of their political power, is that primarily because the Orthodox, literally following the Biblical injunction, and that of their leaders, to go forth and multiply, tend to have a great many children, while Israeli secularists are like most Diaspora Jews and for the most part do not?

[Frank Berger]

I am not aware of any statistics that show to what extent the growth in the number of observant Jews in Israel (or elsewhere) is due to fecundity vs. people becoming religious. In my own experience of orthodox Jewish communities in Dallas, Baltimore and Israel, there are plenty of the latter. About 30 years ago a group of Orthodox rabbis came to Dallas to do outreach among the non-orthodox. They were successful beyond anyone's wildest dreams. In a few years a thriving, growing orthodox community was established including the building of a multi million dollar synagogue. This sort of story is quite common, though the Dallas case was exceptional.

There are Jews who were born and raised secular, most of whom will stay that way. There are Jews who were raised with some kind of Jewish connection - Reform, Conservative, that drop out, and others that become orthodox. I have heard Reform and Conservatism called way stations out of Judaism. There is a reform temple in NYC that on the occasion of their 100th anniversary as a congregation sought to invite descendants of the founding families to a celebration. There were none. All dropped out of any connection with Judaism and

[Dan Koren]

On Monday, January 16, 2023 at 7:00:09 PM UTC-8, Herman wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 17, 2023 at 3:31:29 AM UTC+1, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> > We have relatives in the Netherlands and we hear
> > first hand reports of frequent incidents. Perhaps
> > not quite as violent as in France, yet unacceptable
> > in any "civilized" Western nation.
>

> well, you're posting this from a country in which the
> leader of one of two big parties is talking about "I
> want Jews counting my money" etc.

Where I post from has nothing to do with my opinions.
Also note that I did not elect that "leader". As usual,
your first response is to tar peopl by associations
that are completely random.

> Since your sole source of info seems to be youtube,

Another idiocy. YouTibe videos are easy to share. They
are not my only source of information.

> here are some vids about the rise of antisemitism in the USA.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybT9LrBnVCs
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maPxZEjuk1Q
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjELYYdfwpw

I never claimed there was no anti-semitism in the US.
Quite the contrary. You are clearly deranged to make
such connections.

> However, what's the difference?

The main difference is that the US is a much larger
space where it is much easire for people to find an
area where they are welcome, or less unwelcome
than in other places. Europe is the pits in terms of
tolerating social, cultural and religious diversity.
It's been like this for two millennia. You certainly
know this, don't you?

> You're an out and out racist yourself. Ethnics is
> the first and only criterion for you, you judge
> every single thing in terms of race and ethnics,
> so it's no use whining if other bad people do the
> same.

I don't ever mention "ethnics" except when there
is a social or cultural connection relevant to the
topic at hand.

> I don't, just to be clear.

You clearly never read what you post. You are
the biggest liar in this ng. Run to the nearest
neurosurgeon to have your brain unfucked.

!!! IMBECILE !!!

[Dan Koren]

On Monday, January 16, 2023 at 10:09:09 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
>
> (interestingly, the Jews are subsumed under "white men") - it's all a farce.
>

It is not clear from the way the above is worded
if you agree or disagree. What sez you?

dk

[Dan Koren]

On Monday, January 16, 2023 at 10:37:17 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
>
> Israel is perceived to be a racist state (white men capitalist
> state - see how Gerard assumed its only Jews in Israel,
> while there are druze, christians, muslims etc).
>

There are proletarians too. Not everyone is a capitalist in
Israel.

dk

[Herman]

On Tuesday, January 17, 2023 at 7:02:39 AM UTC+1, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Where I post from has nothing to do with my opinions.

Just a couple hours ago you posted the 180 degree opposite re Wisse and her 'standing', depending whether she lived in Israel or not. So perhaps it's time to see the neurosurgeon and have him check the remnants of your brain.

[Herman]

On Tuesday, January 17, 2023 at 9:28:11 AM UTC+1, Marc S wrote:

> The Holocaust was basically a revolt against the domination of money by the Nazis with the Jews being perceived as the money-people.

wow.
This is beyond stupid.

[Dan Koren]

On Tuesday, January 17, 2023 at 12:30:06 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:

> I am not Whoopi Goldberg.

What a surprise! We all feel relieved.

> Ofc Jews are not white.

Hear, hear! Then what are we?

> It's really a tragedy that Jews are
> being subsumed under white men,

Sounds like you may be quoting
someone. Dr. Goebbels perhaps?

> they always get screwed over...

Thank you for your condescension.

dk

[Dan Koren]

On Monday, January 16, 2023 at 11:48:52 PM UTC-8, Herman wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 17, 2023 at 7:02:39 AM UTC+1, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> > Where I post from has nothing to do with my opinions.
>
> Just a couple hours ago you posted the 180
> degree opposite re Wisse and her 'standing',
> depending whether she lived in Israel or not.

Leaving out the context as usual. A totally
different person and a totally different
situation. How did you manage to get
through school with such logic ability?

dk

[Herman]

Of course you don't want this to be construed as a justification for the Holocaust?

[Gerard]

Op 2023-01-17 om 00:39 schreef Frank Berger:
> On 1/16/2023 5:07 PM, Gerard wrote:
>> Op 2023-01-16 om 20:03 schreef Frank Berger:
>>> On 1/16/2023 1:39 PM, Gerard wrote:
>>>> Op 2023-01-16 om 19:35 schreef Frank Berger:
>>>>> On 1/16/2023 1:02 PM, Gerard wrote:
>>>>>> Op 2023-01-16 om 05:43 schreef Frank Berger:
>>>>>>> On 1/15/2023 9:41 PM, Lawrence Kart wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Sunday, January 15, 2023 at 5:25:13 PM UTC-6, Frank Berger
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 1/15/2023 6:12 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Sunday, January 15, 2023 at 3:04:17 PM UTC-8, Frank Berger
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 1/15/2023 4:26 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sunday, January 15, 2023 at 6:17:11 AM UTC-8, Frank
>>>>>>>>>>>> Berger wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 1/15/2023 3:23 AM, Dan Koren wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, January 14, 2023 at 11:34:40 PM UTC-8, Frank
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Berger wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 1/15/2023 2:07 AM, Dan Koren wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, January 14, 2023 at 9:57:22 PM UTC-8, Marc
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> S wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://mosaicmagazine.com/observation/arts-culture/2022/06/american-jewrys-stunted-sons/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If Mme Wisse is so concerned about the future
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of Judaism and of the Jewish people, why does
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> she teach at Harvard, rather than at any of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> great universities in Israel?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't see why one could assume that teaching at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an Israeli institution would be better for the Jewish
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people than at Harvard.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is not about doing something that is "better for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Jews". It is about earning standing to lecture
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> other Jews about what it means to be Jewish. In
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> my view, Jews who choose to live outside Israel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have no standing.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why does she teach Yiddish rather than Hebrew?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Because she is Yiddish scholar (although she
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> speaks fluent Hebrew).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Clearly teaching the language of the Ashkenazy
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jewish diaspora does nothing for the future of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Jewish people as a nation and as a culture.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why does she list her nationality as Canadian
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rather than Israeli?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> She grew up in Montreal and is Canadian. AFAIK
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> she is not Israeli. I believe she lived in Israel for a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> while, but I don't know how long.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We all know this. It was a retorical question.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If Marc S. is so concerned about the future of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Judaism and of the Jewish people, why does
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> he not move to Israel and convert to Judaism?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I ask the question ....
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't get your point. Is she not qualified to speak
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about Israeli issues because she is not Israeli and/or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't live there? As you so frequently say here,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anyone can talk about anything.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The matter at hand is not freedom of speech per se.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Of course she can speak and write about anything.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The issue is her standing. She has none in my eyes.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Obviously, as a conservative she is going to be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> automatically hated by millions on the Left.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Non sequitur.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> In my view a person has standing
>>>>>>>>>>>>> if the speak sense. Nothing more.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, no! One person's sense can
>>>>>>>>>>>> be another person's non-sense.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> "Standing" means the person is
>>>>>>>>>>>> "qualified" to speak about the
>>>>>>>>>>>> matter, regardless of what
>>>>>>>>>>>> they say.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Depending on the matter at
>>>>>>>>>>>> hand, "standing" may have
>>>>>>>>>>>> dimensions beyond mere
>>>>>>>>>>>> "knowledge" of the matter,
>>>>>>>>>>>> e.g. does the person have
>>>>>>>>>>>> "skin in the game", or does
>>>>>>>>>>>> the person meet ethical
>>>>>>>>>>>> and/or legal requirements.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Again with the all-or-nothing attitude.
>>>>>>>>>>> Sure, an Israeli citizen living in Israel
>>>>>>>>>>> has the most "skin in the game." This
>>>>>>>>>>> is manifested by their right to vote in
>>>>>>>>>>> Israeli elections. But a disapora Jew,
>>>>>>>>>>> religious or not, is a potential Israel
>>>>>>>>>>> and may well have relatives who are
>>>>>>>>>>> Israeli and/or who live in Israel anf
>>>>>>>>>>> therefore has some skin in the game,
>>>>>>>>>>> if not as much. It makes no sense to
>>>>>>>>>>> say the latter's views about Israel or
>>>>>>>>>>> it's policies have no validity.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The balance of opinion in Israel is
>>>>>>>>>> that those who do not live there
>>>>>>>>>> have no right to vote.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> This includes citizens who live or
>>>>>>>>>> travel temporarily out of Israel,
>>>>>>>>>> and cannot vote while being
>>>>>>>>>> out of the country. The only
>>>>>>>>>> exceptions are for maritime
>>>>>>>>>> and airline crews, and for
>>>>>>>>>> government employees
>>>>>>>>>> posted overseas, e.g.
>>>>>>>>>> embassy or consular
>>>>>>>>>> staff.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> While there is certainly a
>>>>>>>>>> difference between voting
>>>>>>>>>> and merely voicing one's
>>>>>>>>>> opinions, most Israelis
>>>>>>>>>> tend to subscribe to the
>>>>>>>>>> view that one's opinions
>>>>>>>>>> do not matter if they do
>>>>>>>>>> not live there.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> dk
>>>>>>>>> As I said, an all-or-nothing view on this makes no sense. The
>>>>>>>>> vast majority of countries have absentee voting. The has been
>>>>>>>>> legislation proposed in Israel to provide for it. I would guess
>>>>>>>>> it has no chance to pass under a conservative government, but
>>>>>>>>> that's just a guess.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I've heard it said that Israelis are not Jews but Israelis.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> One would have know what was meant by "Jews" to make sense of
>>>>>>> this. This kind of statement is meaningless without context.  Did
>>>>>>> the person who said it have any knowledge of Israel?  Was he Jewish?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The population of Israel is as diverse as can be imagined. White,
>>>>>>> Black, Asian, ultra orthodox, not so ultra orthodox, secular,
>>>>>>> sephardic, ashkenaz.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And large, small, fat, lean, smart, dumb?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Missing the point, as always, Gerard.
>>>>
>>>> Wasn't the point "diverse"?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Diversity in areas that are relevant to the conversation.
>>
>> There is no diversity when they all are Jewish.
>>
>>
>
> Also false.  There are Christian, Druse, Muslem, etc. Israelis.


You (and those other "everyone is a antisemite" guys) missed the point,
of course.
You better look up what the word "when" means.

[Frank Berger]

I've never said anything remotely like "everyone is an antisemite." That statement is a far cry from "antisemitism exists everywhere." I understand the distinction might be too much for you.

What is the point of saying "There is no diversity when they are Jewish" if you knew they were not all Jewish? For that matter, what was the point if you actually thought somehow that all Israelis were Jewish?

[Lawrence Kart]

On Tuesday, January 17, 2023 at 1:11:50 PM UTC-6, Marc S wrote:
> Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 17. Januar 2023 um 17:01:41 UTC+1:

> > It is just a very original idea, something you never came up with, and which you will reject when it is shown infront of your eyes - out of pure envy.
> *Ofc in the case of envy it doesn't matter that you never came up with an original idea. But I thought I should mention it anyway. (These thoughts actually crossed my mind when writing it - thought I should clarify, since Bob just recently explained envy so well: "Rather, the real fault is sadness over the good fortune of another.")

The rapid demographic growth of the ultra-Orthodox population both impacts its economic, social, and political standing in Israel, and attracts considerable public, media, and political attention. In 2020, the ultra-Orthodox population in Israel numbered approximately 1,175,000, representing 12.6% of the total population. It is expected to reach 16% of Israel’s population by 2030, and to grow to around 2 million people by 2033.

Growth and Fertility Rates

At around 4% per year, the growth rate of the ultra-Orthodox population in Israel is higher than that in any developed country worldwide. This can be explained by high fertility rates, modern standards of living and medical care, and a low age at marriage. As a result, the ultra-Orthodox population is very young—almost 60% are under the age of 20, compared with 30% of the general Israeli population.

Over the last decade and a half, there has been a moderate decline in ultra-Orthodox fertility rates in Israel, from 7.5 live births per woman between 1998 and 2004, to 6.6 between 2007 and 2019. Among other Jewish women in Israel, the fertility rate for 2018–2019 was 4 live births for national-religious women; 3.2 for traditional-religious women; 2.5 for traditional non-religious women; and 2.2 for secular women.

[Frank Berger]

Nothing surprising there. So what? Omitted is the fact of increased labor market participation by the ultra-Orthodox, both men and women If that continues, the birth rates will come down. Also these facts don't address the extent to which the UO population in Israel has grown because of their high birth rates, adoption of ultra-orthodoxy, by the less orthodox, and immigration. I have no priors as to the extent of these.

[Lawrence Kart]

The point I was about to make was that whatever the cause of the rapid growth of the UO population, its increasing size almost inevitably makes the government, whatever its composition, that much more likely to take account of the UO population's desires, needs, wishes etc. As Dan I believe pointed out earlier, that is one of the ways democracy works. But if the desires, needs, wishes of the UO population grow increasingly adamant , along with the growth in size of the UO population, one can see that Israeli society may be subject to significant internal socio-political stress down the road.

[Frank Berger]

The same can be said of any growing subgroup of any electorate. I really don't see your point.

[Lawrence Kart]

This is not just any subgroup, no? It is one whose desires, needs, wishes etc., seem to be at odds with those of much of the rest of the Israeli population, and a subgroup that understandably, given its growing size, political power, and its innate stance of righteousness, seems not to be inclined to compromise.

[Lawrence Kart]

If indeed compromise is even possible.

[Frank Berger]

What do you think the ultra orthodox want that is "at odds" with "the rest" of the Israeli population (as if the Israeli population can be neatly divided into exactly two camps - it can't)? The ultra-orthodox, via their political parties and voting, participate in the Israeli democratic parliamentary system, just like everyone else. This participation is the epitome of political compromise.

[Frank Berger]

What do you think participation in the political process - voting, forming coalitions is, if not compromise. How much compromise has occurred in recent years between Democrats and Republicans in Congress? You seem to acquired some kind of oversimplified, stereotyped view of Israel and it's society. May I ask what are your usual sources of information? I suggest perusing Israeli news sources for a while. Haaretz.com for a view from the Left and jpost.com for (IMO) a more centrist view. Not one, both.

[Dan Koren]

On Tuesday, January 17, 2023 at 5:01:48 PM UTC-8, Frank Berger wrote:
>
> I suggest perusing Israeli news sources for a while.
> Haaretz.com for a view from the Left and jpost.com
> for (IMO) a more centrist view. Not one, both.

Describing the Jerusalem Post as "centrist"
is akin to describing the North Pole as
"equatorial". The JP has been steadily
moving to the "right" for the past 2-3
decades.

dk

[Dan Koren]

On Tuesday, January 17, 2023 at 4:57:55 PM UTC-8, Frank Berger wrote:
>
> What do you think the ultra orthodox want that is "at odds" with
> "the rest" of the Israeli population (as if the Israeli population
> can be neatly divided into exactly two camps - it can't)?

Relative to the ultra orthodox, "the rest" of the Israelis are people
who do not want to be told what they can eat, or what they can
do or not on Saturdays, or whom they can marry or not. There
is no need to obfuscate the matter. The ultra orthodox are the
folks who are relentlessly pushing to turn Israel into a medieval
shtetl.

> The ultra-orthodox, via their political parties and voting, participate
> in the Israeli democratic parliamentary system, just like everyone
> else. This participation is the epitome of political compromise.

You call "blackmail" "participation" ?!? Oy vey .....

dk

[Dan Koren]

On Tuesday, January 17, 2023 at 11:51:33 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
>
> but what the fuck... you sound like an antisemite.
>

A German rottweiler deciding who is an antisemite ?!?

ROTFL !!!

dk

[Lawrence Kart]

Actually, Frank, in addition to American news sources, I get most of my news about Israel from the Jerusalem Post. I'd prefer to go to Haaretz, but it's behind a pay wall. Most of the time I feel I can detect and discount the JP's Right Wing slant, if any.

[Frank Berger]

On 1/17/2023 8:17 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 17, 2023 at 4:57:55 PM UTC-8, Frank Berger wrote:
>>
>> What do you think the ultra orthodox want that is "at odds" with
>> "the rest" of the Israeli population (as if the Israeli population
>> can be neatly divided into exactly two camps - it can't)?
>
> Relative to the ultra orthodox, "the rest" of the Israelis are people
> who do not want to be told what they can eat, or what they can
> do or not on Saturdays, or whom they can marry or not. There
> is no need to obfuscate the matter. The ultra orthodox are the
> folks who are relentlessly pushing to turn Israel into a medieval
> shtetl.
>

I agree that people who don't want to keep the sabbath or kosher shouldn't be forced to. In a parliamentary system, I suppose it could happen, but it's not likely, at least on a nationwide basis. The idea that these things could be enforced in Tel Aviv is ridiculous.

Here in the U.S. there are extremists who think robbery and murder should be illegal, damn them. Seriously, there are a zillion things I can't do or have to do because other people have forced laws down my throat. Is it really so different?

>> The ultra-orthodox, via their political parties and voting, participate
>> in the Israeli democratic parliamentary system, just like everyone
>> else. This participation is the epitome of political compromise.
>
> You call "blackmail" "participation" ?!? Oy vey .....
>
> dk

I call it a democratic process. If Israel changed to a constitutional republic, the UO would have less influence. It's hardly blackmail.

[Lawrence Kart]

On Wednesday, January 18, 2023 at 9:02:33 AM UTC-6, Marc S wrote:
> Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 18. Januar 2023 um 06:50:19 UTC+1:

> > Butthurt Dan
> >
> > Oh how I love the fact that you can't deal with a German that knows more about antisemitism and Israeli politics than you do hahaha - note I am not saying I have experienced as much antisemitism as you probably have (but yes, I have experienced small doses of it - I actually have been mistaken for a Jew ;D).
> >
> > In a large part it were the young Israelis, the people that defend your country with their lifes, that voted for Netanyahu. These are the people that you, a Californian with his Scuba Mask on, betray by painting Netanyahu as some fascist dictator a la Putin (and sounding like an antisemite by doing so).
> >
> > It is no problem being critical about Netanyahu, but it is ofc wrong to paint him as some fascist Dictator a la Putin. Dan, you would do good as a spokesman for Abbas. Next time Abbas visits Germany, maybe you can accompany him and tell Scholz, that Netanyahu has now committed the 51st Holocaust on the "Palestinians".
> >
> > I revealed my last name in one of my first emails to you, it's actually a rare polish surname, but ofc I also have German ancestors. It would've been easy to find me on fb (I take care that there isn't too much info about myself on the net though). Just shows what an ignorant and traumatized person you are - you hate Kant, Beethoven and everything good about Germany, even though you have no fucking idea about Kant or Beethoven in the first place; and you even hate Netanyahu. Damn Dan, in your hatred for Netanyahu, you sound like my German countrymen ;)
> >
> *for claritiy's sake: I have no affiliation with the polish culture (which I have high regard for) except for my surname, I view myself as culturally german and my grandparents did so as well - but still, I thought it was kind of funny of you calling me a german rottweiler, while almost every teacher I had, asked me where I came from, when they saw my surname. Even Poles generally don't assume it to be polish.
> > To illustrate something for you: Even you who is not black can identify a racist. And I who is not a jew can identify antisemitism. Very simple.
> >
> > You should stop hating yourself and Israel.

Marc S: I mention the growing population of the UO in Israel and the divergence between its views and those of the rest of the Israeli population because, as I said in a previous post, I foresee a possible political-social fracture in the Israeli nation between the UO population and the non-UO population. I have no desire for this to happen, and have no wish to deligitimitize Israel. As for "the orthodoxy of some palestinian muslims, and the antisemitism of the palestinian muslims," that goes without saying, no? Pointing it out again moves no pieces on the board, so to speak.

[MELMOTH]

Marc S a formulé la demande :
> Dan, tell me, why do you hate Israel so much?

FUCK YOU...

[Herman]

On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 10:25:32 AM UTC+1, Marc S wrote:

> (there were also many hispanic and black people that voted for Trump - not just white americans...)

Trump 2020 got 8 percent of the black vote. Eight percent.

Just wondering whether there is some place online where you're lecturing black people, while you're telling Jewish participants here how wrong they are.