Glenn Gould's Appassionata

[Richard Sauer]

Much derided, the Glenn Gould's Appassionata is ,for me, a very funny
turn on this warhorse. Gould said of the opus 57: "There is about the
Appassionata an egoistic pomposity, a defiant "let's just see if I
can't get away with using that once more" attitude". Gould's tempo in
the first movement is a deliberate attempt to show its structural
weaknesses. Where Gould finds bragging, he adds even more
bluster-turning the whole sonata into a parody of itself. Listen to the
Richter/RCA then the Gould. ( I know Mario-forget the Gould)
R.Sauer

[Peter Lemken]

Funnily enough, the first recording I ever heard of the Appassionata was
the very performance by Gould. I had it on tape and listened to it for a
long time, without being exposed to another recording of the piece. You
can imagine my surprise when I took a look into the score AND listened to
Gulda's recording after a while. Quite a shock actually.

Peter Lemken

[Robert Silverman]

Richard Sauer (hots...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: Much derided, the Glenn Gould's Appassionata is ,for me, a very funny
: turn on this warhorse. Gould said of the opus 57: "There is about the
: Appassionata an egoistic pomposity, a defiant "let's just see if I
: can't get away with using that once more" attitude". Gould's tempo in
: the first movement is a deliberate attempt to show its structural
: weaknesses. Where Gould finds bragging, he adds even more
: bluster-turning the whole sonata into a parody of itself. Listen to the
: Richter/RCA then the Gould. ( I know Mario-forget the Gould)
: R.Sauer

A very interesting take on this subject. However, those who attended Richard
Goode's electrifying performance in Seattle a couple of seasons back (and
for which he received a standing ovation in the middle of his recital)
would be hard-pressed to agree with Gould's assessment of the
Appassionata. From a broader perspective, Gould did not like music
written in Sonata form, and his recordings of such pieces, in
general, are his least successful ones.

[Al Schmeder]

hots...@ix.netcom.com(Richard Sauer ) wrote:
> Much derided, the Glenn Gould's Appassionata is ,for me, a very funny
>turn on this warhorse. Gould said of the opus 57: "There is about the
>Appassionata an egoistic pomposity, a defiant "let's just see if I
>can't get away with using that once more" attitude". Gould's tempo in
>the first movement is a deliberate attempt to show its structural
>weaknesses. Where Gould finds bragging, he adds even more
>bluster-turning the whole sonata into a parody of itself. Listen to the
>Richter/RCA then the Gould. ( I know Mario-forget the Gould)
>R.Sauer

On the other hand, I heard EVERYBODY play this piece before I heard
Gould's version. Up until then I had hated the first movement, but
I love the way Gould plays it. And despite his own derogatory remarks
about this piece, his performance is absolutely intense.
Most of the time I can't tolerate his Beethoven.

Max Schmeder
UC Santa Cruz

[Neil Tingley]

In article <4rv922$5...@ultra.sonic.net>, Al Schmeder
<schm...@sonic.net> writes

>
>On the other hand, I heard EVERYBODY play this piece before I heard
>Gould's version. Up until then I had hated the first movement, but
>I love the way Gould plays it. And despite his own derogatory remarks
>about this piece, his performance is absolutely intense.
>Most of the time I can't tolerate his Beethoven.

I got in recently because of all the bad press on this ng. I was
pleasantly shocked whereas I can't abide the latter half of his Mozart
survey.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Neil Tingley Furtwaengler FAQ from r.m.c.r contributers at:
ne...@music.demon.co.uk http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/music/ & links to
London, UK G.H Gould and others "more about me" menu.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[gggg gggg]

On Monday, July 1, 1996 at 12:00:00 AM UTC-7, Richard Sauer wrote:
> Much derided, the Glenn Gould's Appassionata is ,for me, a very funny
> turn on this warhorse. Gould said of the opus 57: "There is about the
> Appassionata an egoistic pomposity, a defiant "let's just see if I
> can't get away with using that once more" attitude". Gould's tempo in
> the first movement is a deliberate attempt to show its structural
> weaknesses. Where Gould finds bragging, he adds even more
> bluster-turning the whole sonata into a parody of itself. Listen to the
> Richter/RCA then the Gould. ( I know Mario-forget the Gould)
> R.Sauer

(2023 Y. upload):

"Glenn Gould's Appassionata: A Scandal?)"

[HT]

> (2023 Y. upload):
>
> "Glenn Gould's Appassionata: A Scandal?)"

It's unusual but not scandalous. There is more music in this interpretation than in most modern versions.

Henk

[AB]

absolutely, I agree.

AB

[Herman]

OMG 8G has discovered Wim Winters 'Authentic Sound' vlog.

We're in for a treat.

[Dan Koren]

Rzewski's is even worse.

dk

[Mandryka]

The music is the problem -- it's just horrible music.

[HT]

Op maandag 23 januari 2023 om 21:06:16 UTC+1 schreef Mandryka:

> The music is the problem -- it's just horrible music.

It's certainly one of the most difficult Beethoven sonatas to listen to.

Henk

[Bob Harper]

The first, and only, time I ever heard this performance was on a car
radio as I was driving out of the Long Beach Airport with my wife. We
were in LA to do some entertaining for work. I found it a disgusting
travesty of the music and consigned it to the garbage bin of musical
performances. Life is too short to listen to it again.

Bob Harper

[Dan Koren]

It is very easy to listen to in the
right hands and on a good piano:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFJ_SOhsbj4

Also far less difficult to listen to
than the Bludgeoned Fortepiano.

dk

[Dan Koren]

Some of the reasons I sort of like
the Appissionata:

1) Only 3 movements
2) Relentless momentum and flow
3) No tear jerking funeral march
4) No minuet in the middle
5) No marches
6) No fugues

dk

[HT]

> Some of the reasons I sort of like
> the Appissionata:
>
> 1) Only 3 movements
> 2) Relentless momentum and flow
> 3) No tear jerking funeral march
> 4) No minuet in the middle
> 5) No marches
> 6) No fugues

Good reasons, but not enough. The slow movement is one of Beethoven's least successful - or, if you like, one of his musically most unforgiving. HJLim's solution (high tempo) does little for the music, highlights its lack of depth.

Henk

[Dan Koren]

On Monday, January 23, 2023 at 1:36:44 PM UTC-8, Dan Koren wrote:

There is also DH Lim:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7iNMybSsts4

One Lim for every taste! ;-)

dk

[HT]

> There is also DH Lim:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7iNMybSsts4
>
> One Lim for every taste! ;-)

A sympathetic but very 'notey' version. It seldom happens that a performance is too clear for my taste. I'll return to GG - if I have ever to listen to Op. 23 again.

Henk

[KimDenmark]

There can be only one: Messulam
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Dgnbbu-mQA

[Dan Koren]

On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 2:34:10 PM UTC-8, KimDenmark wrote:
>
> There can be only one: Messulam
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Dgnbbu-mQA
>

Gotta be kidding! This is
as brain dead as Gould,
if not more!

dk

[Dan Koren]

On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 2:24:29 AM UTC-8, hvt...@xs4all.nl wrote:
> > There is also DH Lim:
> >
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7iNMybSsts4
> >
> > One Lim for every taste! ;-)
>
> A sympathetic but very 'notey' version.

As are most Appissionata readings.

> It seldom happens that a performance
> is too clear for my taste. I'll return to GG

I prefer expression and emotion over
clarity any time every time. Clarity is
the hobgoblin of little minds and of
small ears. Clarity is always trivial
to generate. Any MIDI software
package can produce ear
deafening clarity for free.

> - if I have ever to listen to Op. 23 again.

I can commute your sentence, or
even offer you a free pardon!

dk

[HT]

Op dinsdag 24 januari 2023 om 23:46:52 UTC+1 schreef dan....@gmail.com:

> On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 2:34:10 PM UTC-8, KimDenmark wrote:
> >
> > There can be only one: Messulam
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Dgnbbu-mQA

This sounds even better than the two Lims together. The horrible second movement of "Ludwing [sic] van Beethoven's" sonata is not too fast and not too clear - just perfect.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DZ9txADpvU

Henk

[Dan Koren]

Gotta be kidding. This guy is mechanical idiot.
The prequel to Win Winters.

dk

[HT]

Op dinsdag 24 januari 2023 om 23:34:10 UTC+1 schreef KimDenmark:

> There can be only one: Messulam
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Dgnbbu-mQA

In my enthusiasm, I forgot to thank you for this link. I really enjoyed this version. While playing it, Messulam moved his piano stool in such a way that the full depth of the music was revealed for the first time.

Henk

[HT]

> Gotta be kidding. This guy is mechanical idiot.
> The prequel to Win Winters.

How can you be so negative? In Messulams version the passion implodes. I never heard that before.

Henk

[Dan Koren]

Was any passion ever there?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8OvRvufB3o

The scary thing about folks like Gould, Rzewski,
Messulam, Wim Winters, etc... is that there are
listeners who take them seriously at face value.

dk

[Mandryka]

Never come across Mesulam before and I’m not going to listen to the Beethoven - but I found a Mozart 575. He makes me think of Furtwangler.

[Mandryka]

. . . Or Natan Brand live.

[Dan Koren]

On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 10:21:55 PM UTC-8, Mandryka wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 11:43:51 PM UTC, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 3:20:23 PM UTC-8, hvt...@xs4all.nl wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Gotta be kidding. This guy is mechanical idiot.
> > > > The prequel to Win Winters.
> > >
> > > How can you be so negative? In Messulams version
> > > the passion implodes. I never heard that before.
> > Was any passion ever there?
> >
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8OvRvufB3o
> >
> > The scary thing about folks like Gould, Rzewski,
> > Messulam, Wim Winters, etc... is that there are
> > listeners who take them seriously at face value.
>

> Never come across Mesulam before

Probably for good reason! ;-)

> and I’m not going to listen to the Beethoven - but I
> found a Mozart 575. He makes me think of Furtwangler.

That bad ?!? OMG !!!

dk

[Dan Koren]

Now let's be serious! Brand was a real firebrand.
Furtwangler was a fire extinguisher, Messulam
sounds like a bulldozer.

dk

[Mandryka]

The thing I remember about Brand is that he was a heady drink live, and pipi de chat in the studio.

[HT]

Op woensdag 25 januari 2023 om 00:43:51 UTC+1 schreef dan....@gmail.com:

> > How can you be so negative? In Messulams version
> > the passion implodes. I never heard that before.

> Was any passion ever there?
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8OvRvufB3o

Hard to say if it imploded.

> The scary thing about folks like Gould, Rzewski,
> Messulam, Wim Winters, etc... is that there are
> listeners who take them seriously at face value.

I am inclined to take Gould and Rzewski seriously. Gould has earned his place in the pantheon of great pianists thanks to a handful of recordings. Rzewski's version of the Hammerklavier is one of the unforgettable musical moments of my younger years. I heard him on Belgian television decades ago and was fascinated by his version of the Adagio. I also love a lot of his compositions for piano.

As for Messulam, I was under the impression that the irony in my posts was obvious - too obvious even, and therefore in poor taste.
Winters is someone with a mission. He reminds me of a friend (RIP) who had an idea for a perpetual motion device. He couldn't get it moving, just as Winters can't get his tempos moving.

Henk

[Dan Koren]

On Wednesday, January 25, 2023 at 3:06:46 AM UTC-8, hvt...@xs4all.nl wrote:
>
> Winters is someone with a mission.

Which can be very dangerous indeed.
Remember Torquemada?

> He reminds me of a friend (RIP) who
> had an idea for a perpetual motion
> device. He couldn't get it moving, just
> as Winters can't get his tempos moving.

I don't think the analogy is appropriate.
Winters does not want to get his tempos
moving. All he wants us to get them right.

dk

[Dan Koren]

On Wednesday, January 25, 2023 at 2:28:40 AM UTC-8, Mandryka wrote:
> On Wednesday, January 25, 2023 at 7:29:48 AM UTC, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 10:27:42 PM UTC-8, Mandryka wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, January 25, 2023 at 6:21:55 AM UTC, Mandryka wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Never come across Mesulam before and I’m
> > > > not going to listen to the Beethoven - but I
> > > > found a Mozart 575. He makes me think of
> > > > Furtwangler.
> > >
> > > . . . Or Natan Brand live.
> >
> > Now let's be serious! Brand was a real firebrand.
> > Furtwangler was a fire extinguisher, Messulam
> > sounds like a bulldozer.
>

> The thing I remember about Brand is that he was
> a heady drink live, and pipi de chat in the studio.

How would one know? I wasn't there.

dk

[HT]

Op woensdag 25 januari 2023 om 12:20:42 UTC+1 schreef dan....@gmail.com:

> On Wednesday, January 25, 2023 at 3:06:46 AM UTC-8, hvt...@xs4all.nl wrote:
> >
> > Winters is someone with a mission.
> Which can be very dangerous indeed.

> Remember Torquemada?

LOL! I only heard of him.

Henk