Pronunciation Guide
Jerry
started).
I was uncertain how to pronounce the surname of the English composer
Thomas Ades and found this site:
http://www.pronunciationguide.org/thebiglist.html
Now I know.
It lists many other prominent figures in classical music.
Jerry
Matthew B. Tepper
typed in news:6f20309b-3af8-4d08-bfee-
3ae906...@q39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com:
Not entirely error-free, however. Just at a glance, I see they misspell
Pinchas Zukerman's last name, and Arléen Auger's first name.
I can vouch for Sir Lennox Berkeley's name being pronounced as "Bark-lee,"
because one of my professors, Wayne Peterson, had studied composition with
him and that's how he said it was pronounced. (I didn't study composition
with Dr. Peterson, rather History of 20th Century Music, and that century was
only three-fourths done at the time. One of my composition teachers, Roger
Nixon, had studied with Sir Arthur Bliss, so I do have British "lineage.")
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
War is Peace. ** Freedom is Slavery. ** It's all Napster's fault!
Peter J
> Not entirely error-free, however. Just at a glance, I see they misspell
> Pinchas Zukerman's last name, and Arléen Auger's first name.
>
> I can vouch for Sir Lennox Berkeley's name being pronounced as "Bark-lee,"
I have a problem getting Ehnes right.
Is it Eanes or Ennis?
Pee-tah
notes...@yahoo.com
Not included was the home of the Berlin Philharmonic - the
"Philharmonie".
Is it "Philharmonia"? Been wondering for years.
Bruce
TareeDawg
Pronounced PHIL-har-mon-EEE
Ray (Dawg) Hall, Taree
notes...@yahoo.com
> Pronounced PHIL-har-mon-EEE
>
> Ray (Dawg) Hall, Taree
Thanks, Ray.
Bruce
Dana John Hill
news:6f20309b-3af8-4d08...@q39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
Are we sure about their pronunciation of "Kuijken"? I think there is now a
lot of conflicting information floating around about this. I have to do
this one at work once in a while, too, so definitive information would be
good.
Thanks.
--
Dana John Hill
Gainesville, Florida
Gerard
> "Jerry" <GPGe...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:6f20309b-3af8-4d08...@q39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> > Here's a site worth bookmarking (especially for those just getting
> > started).
> >
> > I was uncertain how to pronounce the surname of the English composer
> > Thomas Ades and found this site:
> >
> > http://www.pronunciationguide.org/thebiglist.html
> >
> >
> > Now I know.
> >
> > It lists many other prominent figures in classical music.
> >
> >
>
>
> Are we sure about their pronunciation of "Kuijken"?
I think it's correct, but with a strong "English" accent.
MiNe 109
I've always heard "Cow-ken".
You'd think the Radio Netherlands Music pronunciation guide would
include it!
http://www2.rnw.nl/mu/en/behind/pronunciations/
Ah! This is more help:
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Performers/Kuijken-Gen.htm
--
Bart OąBrien wrote (May 13, 2003):
[To Jim Morrison] I'm sort-of a Dutch speaker, cos I've lived here for
20 years. I can tell you that it is absolutely hopeless for a native
English-speaker to pronounce -ui- like a Dutchman does, so don't waste
time trying. Just pronounce it as English -ow-.
However, you can easily gain some points by pronouncing the second
syllable of Kuijken correctly. Final n in -en is silent in Dutch.So
pronounce Kuijen like I do: kow-kuh.
-and-
François Haidon wrote (May 14, 2003):
Another way, for those with at least a slight knowledge of French:
Kuijken is pronounced exactly as the (absolutely improbable) French
"qu'oeil que".
--
End quote.
Stephen
Matthew B. Tepper
in news:c33e082a-da81-4947...@z17g2000hsg.googlegroups.com:
> Thanks for passing this along. Very informative.
>
> Not included was the home of the Berlin Philharmonic - the "Philharmonie".
> Is it "Philharmonia"? Been wondering for years.
No, the Philharmonia Orchestra was the London ensemble that Karajan made a
number of recordings with.
Russ and/or Martha Oppenheim
Any ideas on how to pronounce the surname of Eric Tanguy, whose orchestral
works on a Transart CD I have enjoyed?
Russ (not Martha)
PS: still smarting from hearing an announcer on our local classical FM
station deliver "passacaglia" to rhyme with "Pass a hag, Leah."
Simon Roberts
says...
>
>Jerry <GPGe...@aol.com> appears to have caused the following letters to be
>typed in news:6f20309b-3af8-4d08-bfee-
>3ae906...@q39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com:
>
>> Here's a site worth bookmarking (especially for those just getting
>> started).
>>
>> I was uncertain how to pronounce the surname of the English composer
>> Thomas Ades and found this site:
>>
>> http://www.pronunciationguide.org/thebiglist.html
>>
>>
>> Now I know.
>>
>> It lists many other prominent figures in classical music.
>
>Arléen Auger's first name.
Evidently they're not alone....
Simon
Alan Cooper
news:Xns9A1E4DA56A8...@216.168.3.70:
> notes...@yahoo.com appears to have caused the following
> letters to be typed in
> news:c33e082a-da81-4947...@z17g2000hsg.googlegroup
> s.com:
>
>> Thanks for passing this along. Very informative.
>>
>> Not included was the home of the Berlin Philharmonic - the
>> "Philharmonie". Is it "Philharmonia"? Been wondering for years.
>
> No, the Philharmonia Orchestra was the London ensemble that
> Karajan made a number of recordings with.
Leaving the facetious response aside, it's worth asking whether the final /ie/ of
Philharmonie is a vowel digraph (as in "relief") or not (as in "Kiev"). Different
languages handle those combinations in different ways. In this case it's the digraph
pronouced /EE/. Visiting Chile last spring, I was suprised to learn that the correct
pronunciation of "Valparaiso" is not "Val-pa-RYE-so," but "Val-pa-ra-EE-so," which is
generally contracted in the local dialect to "Val-pa-REE-so." Of no interest except
to that tiny minority among us that likes to get this sort of thing right :-)
AC
Matthew B. Tepper
caused the following letters to be typed in
I recall some reviewer (Fanfare?) puckishly remarked that Raautavara's
first name sounds somewhat like "I know you, honey."
And Martin Bernheimer once reviewed a "Trovatore" where the characters
seemed to be giving the direction, "Lay a Nora."
Matthew B. Tepper
letters to be typed in news:flti9...@drn.newsguy.com:
Did I get the accent aigue over the wrong "e"?
Allen
> Jerry <GPGe...@aol.com> appears to have caused the following letters to be
> typed in news:6f20309b-3af8-4d08-bfee-
> 3ae906...@q39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com:
>
>> Here's a site worth bookmarking (especially for those just getting
>> started).
>>
>> I was uncertain how to pronounce the surname of the English composer
>> Thomas Ades and found this site:
>>
>> http://www.pronunciationguide.org/thebiglist.html
>>
>>
>> Now I know.
>>
>> It lists many other prominent figures in classical music.
>
> Not entirely error-free, however. Just at a glance, I see they misspell
> Pinchas Zukerman's last name, and Arléen Auger's first name.
>
> I can vouch for Sir Lennox Berkeley's name being pronounced as "Bark-lee,"
> because one of my professors, Wayne Peterson, had studied composition with
> him and that's how he said it was pronounced. (I didn't study composition
> with Dr. Peterson, rather History of 20th Century Music, and that century was
> only three-fourths done at the time. One of my composition teachers, Roger
> Nixon, had studied with Sir Arthur Bliss, so I do have British "lineage.")
>
listen to the spoken one. Incidentally, a man who interviewed him in his
later years that G told him that he tolerated the "Hee" pronunciation in
his earlier years but started correcting people to the "Gzee" form as he
got older.
Allen
Andy
Thanks. I am embarrassed at how horribly wrong I was about many of
those names.
Andy
Dontait...@aol.com
Regarding your P.S., a friend told me he once heard the following on
a small FM station:
"We'll now hear the Two [sic] Nocturnes by Dibyoossie: Newajjes and
Feets."
Don Tait
Curtis Croulet
> Feets."
Decades ago I heard an announcer on an FM station in San Diego announce that
the following music was to be played by "Henreek Size-nerg."
As one who regularly receives phone calls for "Mr. Krow-litt" (first
syllable rhyming with "cow"), I sympathize with those who struggle to
pronounce names and those on the receiving end of mispronunciations.
--
Curtis Croulet
Temecula, California
33°27'59"N, 117°05'53"W
Edward A. Cowan
The Dutch pronunciation would be something like "köü-ken" (that's o-
umlaut followed by u-umlaut)... --E.A.C.
On Jan 7, 8:51 am, "Dana John Hill"
<dana@danajohnhill[RemoveThisPart].com> wrote:
> "Jerry" <GPGenn...@aol.com> wrote in message
Dontait...@aol.com
But unless I missed something, many names are not there. I can think
two that are not that are frequently mispronounced:
Eduard van Beinum. A WFMT colleague whose family is Dutch and who
speaks the language fluently has assured me that the last name is
pronounced "Bay'ee-num," the first part quickly and slightly run
together. Dutch musicians have confirmed that. The frequently heard
"Bynum" is incorrect.
Andre Cluytens. I know someone who studied conducting with him. The
name is pronounced "Cluwee-tens." A very short "u." It's a Flemish
name, I believe. (This pronunciation was confirmed in the booklet for
the two-CD EMI Great Conductors set devoted to Cluytens.)
Don Tait, who worked with such questions for a long time as an
announcer....
graham
"Peter J" <mayb...@talk21.com> wrote in message
news:13bf1949-74a3-43a3...@41g2000hsy.googlegroups.com...
---------------------------------------------------
The latter, at least that's how the CBC's Eric Friesen does.
Edward A. Cowan
that I had written!) how a San Antonio announcer perpetrated the
following: "Ayan' nayah th' layte Madam Kurst'n Flayag-stayad'll
sang ... <long pause> ... ayub-shlikker woe ayalst dooin' from Fie-dee-
leeyoe bah Ludd-wig vayan Boathayven." This one came to mind last
summer when, on a broadcast from Tanglewood, heard over the web, an
announcer evidently decided not to dare a guess about this title in
the lead-up to a performance by Christine Brewer.
Another horror remains in my mind, this from a Dallas radio announcer
to told us we had just heard "the great Indian [sic] pianist Raah-DU
Luu-POO".
And there was a Detroit broadcast, hosted by Dick Cavett, in which the
otherwise able announcer pronounced the title of Arvo Pärt's "Fratres"
as though it were French and not Latin.
They do just keep coming, don't they? <g> --E.A.C.
Gerard
> > > pronunciation of "Kuijken"? <<
>
> The Dutch pronunciation would be something like "köü-ken" (that's o-
> umlaut followed by u-umlaut)... --E.A.C.
>
>
Not nearly.
But this has been discussed before.
Gerard
> On Jan 6, 11:20�pm, Jerry <GPGenn...@aol.com> wrote:
> > Here's a site worth bookmarking (especially for those just getting
> > started).
> >
> > I was uncertain how to pronounce the surname of the English composer
> > Thomas Ades and found this site:
> >
> > http://www.pronunciationguide.org/thebiglist.html
> >
> > Now I know.
> >
> > It lists many other prominent figures in classical music.
> >
> > Jerry
>
> But unless I missed something, many names are not there. I can think
> two that are not that are frequently mispronounced:
>
> Eduard van Beinum. A WFMT colleague whose family is Dutch and who
> speaks the language fluently has assured me that the last name is
> pronounced "Bay'ee-num," the first part quickly and slightly run
> together. Dutch musicians have confirmed that. The frequently heard
> "Bynum" is incorrect.
The last one looks less incorrect than the first one. It could be the other way
around, depending on how one pronounces "Bay'ee-num".
>
> Andre Cluytens. I know someone who studied conducting with him. The
> name is pronounced "Cluwee-tens." A very short "u." It's a Flemish
> name, I believe. (This pronunciation was confirmed in the booklet for
> the two-CD EMI Great Conductors set devoted to Cluytens.)
Are you sure it is pronounced different from Kuijken?
Dontait...@aol.com
> I still recall with some pain (because the idiot was reading a script
> that I had written!) how a San Antonio announcer perpetrated the
> following: "Ayan' nayah th' layte Madam Kurst'n Flayag-stayad'll
> sang ... <long pause> ... ayub-shlikker woe ayalst dooin' from Fie-dee-
> leeyoe bah Ludd-wig vayan Boathayven." This one came to mind last
> summer when, on a broadcast from Tanglewood, heard over the web, an
> announcer evidently decided not to dare a guess about this title in
> the lead-up to a performance by Christine Brewer.
>
> Another horror remains in my mind, this from a Dallas radio announcer
> to told us we had just heard "the great Indian [sic] pianist Raah-DU
> Luu-POO".
>
> And there was a Detroit broadcast, hosted by Dick Cavett, in which the
> as though it were French and not Latin.
>
> They do just keep coming, don't they? <g> --E.A.C.
(snip)
Yes, and how great your stories are! Thanks.
Don Tait
Jon Alan Conrad
> "Peter J" <maybi...@talk21.com> wrote in message
>
> news:13bf1949-74a3-43a3...@41g2000hsy.googlegroups.com...
> On 7 Jan, 06:27, "Matthew B. Tepper" <oyþ@earthlink.net> wrote
> > Not entirely error-free, however. Just at a glance, I see they misspell
> > Pinchas Zukerman's last name, and Arléen Auger's first name.
As far as I can tell, they got both names right. (She only used the
acute accent over the E in her surname for a few years, to clue people
in to the desired pronunciation.)
>> I have a problem getting Ehnes right.
>> Is it Eanes or Ennis?
> The latter, at least that's how the CBC's Eric Friesen does.
As long as it isn't "anus." (Which, alas, I have heard.)
I dispute their accenting Götterdämmerung on the third syllable,
though that has probably become common enough even in Germany that it
won't get anybody into trouble. But the first syllable really ought to
get the biggest stress. (Same with Walküre.)
I suppose that once one branches beyond pronunciation it's hard to
know where to stop, but I wish they'd found space for titles that are
often cited incorrectly (sometimes even in old-but-not-original
printed editions): there should be no article in front of Messiah,
Winterreise, Götterdämmerung, or Pagliacci.
Now, how is the soprano Nina Stemme's surname pronounced? I realized
that I've been giving it the German pronunciation "SHTEM-eh," but she
is in fact not German, so it's probably something else.
JAC
Johannes Roehl
>> "We'll now hear the Two [sic] Nocturnes by Dibyoossie: Newajjes and
>> Feets."
>
> Decades ago I heard an announcer on an FM station in San Diego announce that
> the following music was to be played by "Henreek Size-nerg."
>
> As one who regularly receives phone calls for "Mr. Krow-litt" (first
> syllable rhyming with "cow"), I sympathize with those who struggle to
> pronounce names and those on the receiving end of mispronunciations.
So you pronounce yourself more or less like "Crew-Lay" ?
Johannes Roehl (who painfully remembers the times English/American
speakers struggled with his surname, the combination of umlaut with the
"r" and "l" seems to be extremely hard)
John
> Here's a site worth bookmarking (especially for those just getting
> started).
>
> I was uncertain how to pronounce the surname of the English composer
> Thomas Ades and found this site:
>
> http://www.pronunciationguide.org/thebiglist.html
>
> Now I know.
>
> It lists many other prominent figures in classical music.
>
> Jerry
Here's another, although it consists of .pdf files, individually by
letter:
O
<f9e90778-c3a8-48af...@f3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
<Dontait...@aol.com> wrote:
For George Szell, is it the "S" that is silent, or the "Z?"
-Owen
Matthew B. Tepper
be typed in news:47825c5a$0$8807$4c36...@roadrunner.com:
> Another problem: look up Ginastera, note the printed pronunciation, then
> listen to the spoken one. Incidentally, a man who interviewed him in his
> later years that G told him that he tolerated the "Hee" pronunciation in
> his earlier years but started correcting people to the "Gzee" form as he
> got older.
That's right. The composer visited my graduate school in 1981, and one of
the questions he was asked was about the pronunciation of his name. So you
can say I heard it direct from the authority.
Matthew B. Tepper
letters to be typed in
> On Jan 7, 2:11 pm, "graham" <g.ste...@shaw.ca> wrote:
>> "Peter J" <maybi...@talk21.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:13bf1949-74a3-43a3...@41g2000hsy.googlegroups.com...
>> On 7 Jan, 06:27, "Matthew B. Tepper" <oyþ@earthlink.net> wrote
>
>> > Not entirely error-free, however. Just at a glance, I see they
>> > misspell Pinchas Zukerman's last name, and Arléen Auger's first name.
>
> As far as I can tell, they got both names right. (She only used the
> acute accent over the E in her surname for a few years, to clue people
> in to the desired pronunciation.)
I sit corrected with regard to the late and much-missed Ms. Auger. But Mr.
Zukerman's family name does not contain a "c".
Matthew B. Tepper
letters to be typed in news:f1567298-d702-4582-84d0-efbccfc09286
@m34g2000hsf.googlegroups.com:
> I still recall with some pain (because the idiot was reading a script
> that I had written!) how a San Antonio announcer perpetrated the
> following: "Ayan' nayah th' layte Madam Kurst'n Flayag-stayad'll
> sang ... <long pause> ... ayub-shlikker woe ayalst dooin' from Fie-dee-
> leeyoe bah Ludd-wig vayan Boathayven." This one came to mind last
> summer when, on a broadcast from Tanglewood, heard over the web, an
> announcer evidently decided not to dare a guess about this title in
> the lead-up to a performance by Christine Brewer.
Sometimes there isn't much you can do about dialect, short of elocution
lessons. I've often mentioned one of my undergraduate school professors,
who spoke with a broad Tennessee or Kentucky drawl, and would often say he
was going to illustrate a particular passage of music on the "pyanner."
As for elocution, sometimes you can do it yourself. My mother had a Bronx
accent, but diligently taught herself to speak more refined middle American
English. She would sometimes slip back into her original dialect or into
Yiddish for flavor and/or emphasis, and I seem to have picked up some of
the Bronx in her voice.
Matthew B. Tepper
following letters to be typed in news:NAugj.5891$qV.3972@trnddc03:
>> "We'll now hear the Two [sic] Nocturnes by Dibyoossie: Newajjes and
>> Feets."
>
> Decades ago I heard an announcer on an FM station in San Diego announce
> that the following music was to be played by "Henreek Size-nerg."
Thanks for Szeryng. ;--)
> As one who regularly receives phone calls for "Mr. Krow-litt" (first
> syllable rhyming with "cow"), I sympathize with those who struggle to
> pronounce names and those on the receiving end of mispronunciations.
I had always figured your name was pronounced in the French manner, and
then I confirmed it when I met you last year.
Matthew B. Tepper
be typed in news:070120081546253715%ow...@denofinequityx.com:
> For George Szell, is it the "S" that is silent, or the "Z?"
It's a Hungarian name, so say it as English-speakers would say "Sell."
Simon Roberts
says...
>
>Simon Roberts <sd...@comcast.net> appears to have caused the following
>letters to be typed in news:flti9...@drn.newsguy.com:
>
>> In article <Xns9A1DE45F76F...@216.168.3.70>, Matthew B.
>> Tepper says...
>>>
>>>Jerry <GPGe...@aol.com> appears to have caused the following letters
>>>to be typed in news:6f20309b-3af8-4d08-bfee-
>>>3ae906...@q39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com:
>>>
>>>> Here's a site worth bookmarking (especially for those just getting
>>>> started).
>>>>
>>>> I was uncertain how to pronounce the surname of the English composer
>>>> Thomas Ades and found this site:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.pronunciationguide.org/thebiglist.html
>>>>
>>>> Now I know.
>>>>
>>>> It lists many other prominent figures in classical music.
>>>
>>>Not entirely error-free, however. Just at a glance, I see they misspell
>>>. . . Arléen Auger's first name.
>>
>> Evidently they're not alone....
>
>Did I get the accent aigue over the wrong "e"?
Should be on the e in her last name.
Simon
Aage Johansen
> ...
> Now, how is the soprano Nina Stemme's surname pronounced? I realized
> that I've been giving it the German pronunciation "SHTEM-eh," but she
> is in fact not German, so it's probably something else.
The Swedish pronounciation is almost like German, just skip the "H" and
you will be close.
--
Aage J.
graham
"Andy" <amhen...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:0d2d0b21-19fb-495a...@k39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
Graham
bearti...@gmail.com
Whoever designed such a monstrosity of a website should be shot.
Well, figuratively, at least.
J
Curtis Croulet
> then I confirmed it when I met you last year.
It's usually "croo-lay," but I love it when I hear an authentic French
pronunciation. Actually, they usually somewhat swallow the "r," and some
genealogical records of bonafide ancestors have it as "Coulet." Most
pre-revolutionary records were written by priests, and later by local
notaries (a standard format was used for civil records after the French
Revolution), and they wrote it as they thought they heard it.
Curtis Croulet
> otherwise able announcer pronounced the title of Arvo Pärt's "Fratres"
> as though it were French and not Latin.
I once heard him announce the Brahms First Symphony, but the music that
followed was the Second.
Curtis Croulet
> that I've been giving it the German pronunciation
> "SHTEM-eh," but she
> is in fact not German, so it's probably something else.
John Culshaw remarked in "Ring Resounding" that Kirsten Flagstad hated being
called "flag-shtadt," as in German.
Curtis Croulet
> speaks the language fluently has assured me that the last name is
> pronounced "Bay'ee-num," the first part quickly and slightly run
> together. Dutch musicians have confirmed that. The frequently heard
> "Bynum" is incorrect.
Well, that's very interesting. When he came to L.A. in the 1950s, I
remember radio ads for his concerts where it was routinely pronounced the
wrong way that you describe. So I've always pronounced it that way, and
then I took German in college, which reinforced the wrong way.
Dontait...@aol.com
> Dontaitchic...@aol.com wrote:
> > On Jan 6, 11:20�pm, Jerry <GPGenn...@aol.com> wrote:
> > > Here's a site worth bookmarking (especially for those just getting
> > > started).
>
> > > I was uncertain how to pronounce the surname of the English composer
> > > Thomas Ades and found this site:
>
> > >http://www.pronunciationguide.org/thebiglist.html
>
> > > Now I know.
>
> > > It lists many other prominent figures in classical music.
>
> > > Jerry
>
> > But unless I missed something, many names are not there. I can think
> > two that are not that are frequently mispronounced:
>
> > Eduard van Beinum. A WFMT colleague whose family is Dutch and who
> > speaks the language fluently has assured me that the last name is
> > pronounced "Bay'ee-num," the first part quickly and slightly run
> > together. Dutch musicians have confirmed that. The frequently heard
> > "Bynum" is incorrect.
>
> The last one looks less incorrect than the first one. It could be the other way
> around, depending on how one pronounces "Bay'ee-num".
The correct pronunciation of "Bay'ee-num" is "Bay'ee-num." That's
the correct way.
>
> > Andre Cluytens. I know someone who studied conducting with him. The
> > name is pronounced "Cluwee-tens." A very short "u." It's a Flemish
> > name, I believe. (This pronunciation was confirmed in the booklet for
> > the two-CD EMI Great Conductors set devoted to Cluytens.)
>
> Are you sure it is pronounced different from Kuijken?
Yes. Cluytens was not Dutch, like Kuijken. He was, I believe,
Flemish. Paul Vermel (French-born and reared), who told me this
pronunciation, worked with Cluytens on a daily basis as his conducting
pupil. He knows how to pronounce his teacher's name and is emphatic
about the correct way; I took lessons in pronunciation from him. And
as I wrote, the booklet for the EMI Great Conductors CD set devoted to
Cluytens contains a careful spelling of hopw Cluytens's name should be
pronounced.
Don Tait
Curtis Croulet
as shown on that pronunciation website? The accent on the second syllable
is not standard Japanese, where syllables are evenly stressed.
TareeDawg
> I still recall with some pain (because the idiot was reading a script
> that I had written!) how a San Antonio announcer perpetrated the
> following: "Ayan' nayah th' layte Madam Kurst'n Flayag-stayad'll
> sang ... <long pause> ... ayub-shlikker woe ayalst dooin' from Fie-dee-
> leeyoe bah Ludd-wig vayan Boathayven."
LOL. However, I will never knock those who stick to their own
vernacular. I find it not so disastrous.
Ray (Dawg) Hall, Taree
EM
-0000:
> Not entirely error-free, however
Certainly not, the Dutch is not very good, and neither is the German.
Too strong English accents. Good initiative though, but they need
native speakers.
EM
Russ and/or Martha Oppenheim
<Dontait...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:11f46034-0c91-415d...@d4g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 7, 9:42?am, "Russ and/or Martha Oppenheim"
<moppenh...@satx.rr.com> wrote:
> Any ideas on how to pronounce the surname of Eric Tanguy, whose orchestral
> works on a Transart CD I have enjoyed?
>
> Russ (not Martha)
>
> PS: ?still smarting from hearing an announcer on our local classical FM
> station deliver "passacaglia" to rhyme with "Pass a hag, Leah."
Regarding your P.S., a friend told me he once heard the following on
a small FM station:
"We'll now hear the Two [sic] Nocturnes by Dibyoossie: Newajjes and
Feets."
Don Tait
=======================================
An announcer at a small local university station (which since has gone over
to all-jazz format) described a non-analogue recording as 'di-JITTLE'.
Reminded me of an old song my Dad used to sing, something about the right
'em-FOSS-is' on the wrong 'syl-LOBBLE.'
Russ (not Martha)
PS - back on topic: Can anyone help with the pronunciation of 'Tanguy' ????
Jack Crawford
I've heard both "Kurshlun" and "Kecklin" on the radio.
TIA
Jack
Matthew B. Tepper
> In article <Xns9A1E5988428...@216.168.3.70>, Matthew B. Tepper
> says...
>
>> Did I get the accent aigue over the wrong "e"?
>
> Should be on the e in her last name.
Thanks.
Matthew B. Tepper
>> I had always figured your name was pronounced in the French manner, and
>> then I confirmed it when I met you last year.
>
> It's usually "croo-lay," but I love it when I hear an authentic French
> pronunciation. Actually, they usually somewhat swallow the "r," and some
> genealogical records of bonafide ancestors have it as "Coulet." Most
> pre-revolutionary records were written by priests, and later by local
> notaries (a standard format was used for civil records after the French
> Revolution), and they wrote it as they thought they heard it.
I can see why a French-speaker might consider your name to sound, well,
politer with that "r" in it.
josq...@aol.com
recollection of hearing Vaughan Williams widow on the radio stating
that her husband's first name was said "Ralph" and she doesn't know
why people here insist on saying "Rafe" instead.
But does anyone here know for sure???
O
Matthew B. Tepper <oyþ@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> Sometimes there isn't much you can do about dialect, short of elocution
> lessons.
Reminds me of a W.C. Fields radio routine:
Fields: And what are you studying, dear, in college?
Woman: Elocution.
Fields: Ah, electrocution, eh? Electrocution. That's wonderful.
Why, my dear old father...
-Owen
Curtis Croulet
> recollection of hearing Vaughan Williams widow on the radio stating
> that her husband's first name was said "Ralph" and she doesn't know
> why people here insist on saying "Rafe" instead.
Hmm. That's interesting. I thought the British pronunciation of "Ralph"
was "Rafe." No?
ne...@thump.org
<oy兀earthlink.net> wrote:
>I can vouch for Sir Lennox Berkeley's name being pronounced as "Bark-lee,"
>because one of my professors
Berkeley Square - Barklee Square : always pronounced like this in
England. ITs crazy but true
Gerard
> On Jan 7, 1:38Â pm, "Gerard" <ghen_nospam_drik...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Dontaitchic...@aol.com wrote:
> > > > Here's a site worth bookmarking (especially for those just
> > > > getting started).
> >
> > > > I was uncertain how to pronounce the surname of the English
> > > > composer Thomas Ades and found this site:
> >
> > > > http://www.pronunciationguide.org/thebiglist.html
> >
> > > > Now I know.
> >
> > > > It lists many other prominent figures in classical music.
> >
> > > > Jerry
> >
> > > think two that are not that are frequently mispronounced:
> >
> > > who speaks the language fluently has assured me that the last
> > > name is pronounced "Bay'ee-num," the first part quickly and
> > > slightly run together. Dutch musicians have confirmed that. The
> > > frequently heard "Bynum" is incorrect.
> >
> > The last one looks less incorrect than the first one. It could be
> > the other way around, depending on how one pronounces "Bay'ee-num".
>
> The correct pronunciation of "Bay'ee-num" is "Bay'ee-num." That's
> the correct way.
> >
> > > The name is pronounced "Cluwee-tens." A very short "u." It's a
> > > Flemish name, I believe. (This pronunciation was confirmed in the
> > > booklet for the two-CD EMI Great Conductors set devoted to
> > > Cluytens.)
> >
> > Are you sure it is pronounced different from Kuijken?
>
> Yes. Cluytens was not Dutch, like Kuijken.
Kuijken is not Dutch either.
> He was, I believe,
> Flemish. Paul Vermel (French-born and reared), who told me this
> pronunciation, worked with Cluytens on a daily basis as his conducting
> pupil. He knows how to pronounce his teacher's name and is emphatic
> about the correct way; I took lessons in pronunciation from him. And
> as I wrote, the booklet for the EMI Great Conductors CD set devoted to
> Cluytens contains a careful spelling of hopw Cluytens's name should be
> pronounced.
>
The Flemish/Dutch pronunciation of 'Cluytens' of not different from that of
'Kuijken'.
"Cluwee-tens" is a French pronunciation.
TareeDawg
>> Speaking of pronunciation of composer's names, I have a distinct
>> recollection of hearing Vaughan Williams widow on the radio stating
>> that her husband's first name was said "Ralph" and she doesn't know
>> why people here insist on saying "Rafe" instead.
>
> Hmm. That's interesting. I thought the British pronunciation of "Ralph"
> was "Rafe." No?
Not to my knowledge. Ralph is Ralph everywhere. The pronunciation for
RVW however of 'Rafe', seems very RVW specific, for some reason.
Ray (Dawg) Hall, Taree
Eddie Oliver
>> Hmm. That's interesting. I thought the British pronunciation of
>> "Ralph" was "Rafe." No?
>
> Not to my knowledge.
Then your knowledge is very limited, since both pronunciations exist.
> Ralph is Ralph everywhere.
Except where/when it is Rafe.
> The pronunciation for
> RVW however of 'Rafe', seems very RVW specific, for some reason.
What about Ralph (Rafe) Rackstraw in HMS Pinafore, then?
Have a look at
http://www.cs.mu.oz.au/~rafe/
as just one contemporary example, and if you do an elementary google
search, you'll find plenty of examples.
TareeDawg
> TareeDawg wrote:
>
>>> Hmm. That's interesting. I thought the British pronunciation of
>>> "Ralph" was "Rafe." No?
>>
>> Not to my knowledge.
>
> Then your knowledge is very limited, since both pronunciations exist.
In the above respect maybe, but in my experience of living in the UK and
elsewhere I have never heard the pronunciation Rafe. Obviously, you
appear to live on another planet.
>
>> Ralph is Ralph everywhere.
>
> Except where/when it is Rafe.
Which in my experience has never been heard. As above.
>> The pronunciation for RVW however of 'Rafe', seems very RVW specific,
>> for some reason.
>
> What about Ralph (Rafe) Rackstraw in HMS Pinafore, then?
I do not pretend to know anything about HMS Pinafore or any opera.
Others may pretend, like yourself, arsehole, but I don't.
> Have a look at
> http://www.cs.mu.oz.au/~rafe/
> as just one contemporary example, and if you do an elementary google
> search, you'll find plenty of examples.
I have no need to look. The subject bores me. So do you.
Ray (Dawg) Hall, Taree
rayt...@bigpond.com
wrote:
> > Speaking of pronunciation of composer's names, I have a distinct
> > recollection of hearing Vaughan Williams widow on the radio stating
> > that her husband's first name was said "Ralph" and she doesn't know
> > why people here insist on saying "Rafe" instead.
>
> Hmm. That's interesting. I thought the British pronunciation of "Ralph"
> was "Rafe." No?
Just to clarify, as it obvious that idiots have a habit of chiming in,
the pronunciation of the above is very old British usage, and has long
disappeared, except perhaps, in very high class families. Brits use
Ralph pronunciation-wise, in the same way as Ralphy is pronounced, in
the everlasting, ever enduring film, The Christmas Story.
Believe it or not, Ralph has a factual story.
Part One: Ralph as a name for people
Occasionally, "Ralph" has been used as a family name, but much more
frequently, it is a masculine given name with Anglo-Saxon, Germanic,
and Old Norse roots. It is actually a shortened form of a name
previously rendered in longer forms, including Radulf, Rathulfr, and
Rædwulf. These names combine two words: "ræd" is an older form of
rede, meaning "counsel," and "wulf" is an older form of wolf.
Many name meaning books agree that Ralph means "counsel-wolf,"
although few give any detailed etymology for it. Other names with
related word roots include Randolph, which means "shield-wolf," and
Wolfram, which means "wolf-raven."
The pronunciation of the name Ralph has undergone an interesting
transformation in the last few decades or so. Almost everyone
currently pronounces it in a manner similar to the word "alpha."
However, prior to the early twentieth century, it was more frequently
pronounced in a manner similar to the word "safe." This earlier
pronunciation probably derived from the earlier forms of the name,
especially Rædwulf. When the name was shortened, the earlier vowel
sound was retained, and the letter L became silent.
Since then, this older pronunciation has gradually faded. Today only a
few families in the upper classes of British society still use it.
One well known figure to retain the traditional pronunciation into the
twentieth century was the composer Ralph Vaughan Williams. At this
writing, probably the most famous inheritor of this tradition is the
actor Ralph Fiennes, and there are millions of young people around the
world who might never have heard it said in the old way at all, if it
were not for his popularity.
Ray Hall, Taree
Eddie Oliver
> I do not pretend to know anything about HMS Pinafore or any opera.
> Others may pretend, like yourself, arsehole, but I don't.
>> Have a look at
>> http://www.cs.mu.oz.au/~rafe/
>> as just one contemporary example, and if you do an elementary google
>> search, you'll find plenty of examples.
>
> I have no need to look. The subject bores me. So do you.
In other words, Ray, you display the limitations of your knowledge
(which you present as the fount of all wisdom) and then attack anyone
who presents direct evidence to demonstrate those limitations. Thank you
for giving such an excellent example of your attitude.
TareeDawg
I have just provided the evidence to Curtis. All you have spouted is
total rubbish.
And thank YOU, for your example of total ignorance, and my attitude is
the same as anyone else's when attacked by a rank idiot, pretending to
know something which is patently not true.
Ray (Dawg) Hall, Taree
Eddie Oliver
> I have just provided the evidence to Curtis. All you have spouted is
> total rubbish.
>
> And thank YOU, for your example of total ignorance, and my attitude is
> the same as anyone else's when attacked by a rank idiot, pretending to
> know something which is patently not true.
You just proved in your own posting "to Curtis" that what you said
originally was not true. You have proved yourself to be a "rank idiot"
by your very own actions.
Incidentally, where did you get your posting to Curtis from? I didn't
notice an attribution. Are you adding plagiarism to your list of
self-displayed "rank idiot" characteristics?
Good night, Ray.
TareeDawg
> TareeDawg wrote:
>
>> I have just provided the evidence to Curtis. All you have spouted is
>> total rubbish.
>>
>> And thank YOU, for your example of total ignorance, and my attitude is
>> the same as anyone else's when attacked by a rank idiot, pretending to
>> know something which is patently not true.
>
> You just proved in your own posting "to Curtis" that what you said
> originally was not true. You have proved yourself to be a "rank idiot"
> by your very own actions.
Have you read it. What does it say?
> Incidentally, where did you get your posting to Curtis from? I didn't
> notice an attribution. Are you adding plagiarism to your list of
> self-displayed "rank idiot" characteristics?
Try looking up the information, and not your own fabrication. Use
whatever brain you might have.
To recap:
You questioned my knowledge outright, on my assertion which was correct,
with your own utter gobbledygook.
If in future, you intend to attack someone's knowledge, make sure you
know the facts, which in this case you obviously didn't.
Ray (Dawg) Hall, Taree
O
<4cc62daa-cf96-44b9...@d4g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
<rayt...@bigpond.com> wrote:
> On Jan 8, 5:49 pm, "Curtis Croulet" <calypte@_NO_SPAM_verizon.net>
> wrote:
> > > Speaking of pronunciation of composer's names, I have a distinct
> > > recollection of hearing Vaughan Williams widow on the radio stating
> > > that her husband's first name was said "Ralph" and she doesn't know
> > > why people here insist on saying "Rafe" instead.
> >
> > Hmm. That's interesting. I thought the British pronunciation of "Ralph"
> > was "Rafe." No?
>
> Just to clarify, as it obvious that idiots have a habit of chiming in,
> the pronunciation of the above is very old British usage, and has long
> disappeared, except perhaps, in very high class families.
How about that actor that has sex in airplane lavatories with flight
attendants, Ralph Fiennes? I've heard his name pronounced all kinds of
ways, and if you take a flight with him and sit near the lavatory, you
can probably hear him called "darling."
-Owen
Gerard
> > Eduard van Beinum. A WFMT colleague whose family is Dutch and who
> > speaks the language fluently has assured me that the last name is
> > pronounced "Bay'ee-num," the first part quickly and slightly run
> > together. Dutch musicians have confirmed that. The frequently heard
> > "Bynum" is incorrect.
>
> Well, that's very interesting. When he came to L.A. in the 1950s, I
> remember radio ads for his concerts where it was routinely pronounced
> the wrong way that you describe. So I've always pronounced it that
> way, and then I took German in college, which reinforced the wrong
> way.
Which is the better way anyway.
Matthew B. Tepper
> In other words, Ray, you display the limitations of your knowledge (which
> you present as the fount of all wisdom) and then attack anyone who presents
> direct evidence to demonstrate those limitations. Thank you for giving such
> an excellent example of your attitude.
You should have been around for the Rachmaninoff/Rachmaninov debacle!
Curtis Croulet
>>because one of my professors
>
> Berkeley Square - Barklee Square : always pronounced like this in
> England. ITs crazy but true
"Burk-lee," as in Berkeley, Calif. and as in my late uncle (!) Berkeley is
an Americanism, is it not? Inexplicably, although my late uncle was
"Burk-lee," and his father's middle name was "Burk-lee," Berkeley's paternal
grandparents, both of whom he knew well when growing up, came from the UK
(Shropshire and Yorkshire), where "Bark-lee" is prevalent (isn't it?).
Allen
> O <ow...@denofinequityx.com> appears to have caused the following letters to
> be typed in news:070120081546253715%ow...@denofinequityx.com:
>
>> For George Szell, is it the "S" that is silent, or the "Z?"
>
> It's a Hungarian name, so say it as English-speakers would say "Sell."
>
I read somewhere many years ago that he said that was exactly how to
pronounce it.
Allen
Allen
> "Andy" <amhen...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:0d2d0b21-19fb-495a...@k39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>> On Jan 7, 12:20 am, Jerry <GPGenn...@aol.com> wrote:
>>> Here's a site worth bookmarking (especially for those just getting
>>> started).
>>>
>>> I was uncertain how to pronounce the surname of the English composer
>>> Thomas Ades and found this site:
>>>
>>> http://www.pronunciationguide.org/thebiglist.html
>>>
>>> Now I know.
>>>
>>> It lists many other prominent figures in classical music.
>>>
>>> Jerry
>> those names.
>>
> Didn't Lennie's father pronounce it Bern-steen?
> Graham
>
>
I have read that in Yiddish it is pronounced "steen", as opposed to the
German "stine. I have known several people named Weinstein; about half
pronounce it "Winesteen" and half "Winestine".
Allen
Allen
> I still recall with some pain (because the idiot was reading a script
> that I had written!) how a San Antonio announcer perpetrated the
> following: "Ayan' nayah th' layte Madam Kurst'n Flayag-stayad'll
> sang ... <long pause> ... ayub-shlikker woe ayalst dooin' from Fie-dee-
> summer when, on a broadcast from Tanglewood, heard over the web, an
> announcer evidently decided not to dare a guess about this title in
> the lead-up to a performance by Christine Brewer.
>
> Another horror remains in my mind, this from a Dallas radio announcer
> to told us we had just heard "the great Indian [sic] pianist Raah-DU
> Luu-POO".
>
> And there was a Detroit broadcast, hosted by Dick Cavett, in which the
> otherwise able announcer pronounced the title of Arvo Pärt's "Fratres"
> as though it were French and not Latin.
>
> They do just keep coming, don't they? <g> --E.A.C.
>
Some of the mispronunciations that one hears are almost unbelievable,
but I think that I would rather hear them than the studied, grossly
over-prononciations that one sometimes hears. Mr. Cowan, I'm sure that
will know who I'm talking about when I mention one such announcer who
over-pronounced to the extent of pronouncing Sibelius as "C. Bailey
OOS", three separate words. I can't really condemn him because he built
up a fine classical station in Austin that we probably have without him.
Allen
bob.h...@comcast.net
> >I can vouch for Sir Lennox Berkeley's name being pronounced as "Bark-lee,"
> >because one of my professors
>
> Berkeley Square - Barklee Square : always pronounced like this in
> England. ITs crazy but true
Well, given the pronunciation of 'Cholmondeley' why should we be
surprised?:)
On the subject of DJs massacring names, a friend who went to Lawrence
College in Appleton, WI worked at the student radio station. He was
from Evanston, had grown up with classical music and WFMT, so knew how
to pronounce most of the names of composers and works. No so some of
his fellow workders, one of whom announced on-air that the next work
to be played was the Sweet from RAV-els Daphnis and Klow. I am not
making this up.
Bob Harper
Simon Roberts
>
>>>I can vouch for Sir Lennox Berkeley's name being pronounced as "Bark-lee,"
>>>because one of my professors
>>
>> Berkeley Square - Barklee Square : always pronounced like this in
>> England. ITs crazy but true
>
>"Burk-lee," as in Berkeley, Calif. and as in my late uncle (!) Berkeley is
>an Americanism, is it not? Inexplicably, although my late uncle was
>"Burk-lee," and his father's middle name was "Burk-lee," Berkeley's paternal
>grandparents, both of whom he knew well when growing up, came from the UK
>(Shropshire and Yorkshire), where "Bark-lee" is prevalent (isn't it?).
And Berkshire, etc.
Simon
Simon Roberts
>I have read that in Yiddish it is pronounced "steen", as opposed to the
>German "stine. I have known several people named Weinstein; about half
>pronounce it "Winesteen" and half "Winestine".
No takers for Weensteen?
Simon
Dontait...@aol.com
Just catching up from yesterday.... Yes, this seems to have happened
all the time. In fact, we used to have programs on WFMT from Radio
Nederland in which the announcers said "van By-num." And yet when I
was privileged to meet members of the Concertgebouw Orchestra at a
reception in 1961 thosewho referred to him pronounced the name "Bay'e-
num."
Don Tait
Curtis Croulet
Are you saying it's "Bark-shire?"
Dontait...@aol.com
wrote:
> Don, perhaps you can tell me: does Mitsuko Uchida really pronounce her name
> as shown on that pronunciation website? �The accent on the second syllable
> is not standard Japanese, where syllables are evenly stressed.
Hi Curtis -- I've only participated in a round-table telephone
discussion with her and her name never came up. But I know she heard
Henry Fogel's introduction of her, in which he stressed the syllables
evenly in the Japanese way (which you cite), and she didn't say
anything. She might have been being polite, but Henry was still
president of the CSO and knew the artists, so I assume that he knew
how best to pronounce her name. So I think this guide is incorrect.
(She was also brilliantly talkative and witty.)
Don Tait
Dontait...@aol.com
> > > Dontaitchic...@aol.com wrote:
> > > > > Here's a site worth bookmarking (especially for those just
> > > > > getting started).
>
> > > > > I was uncertain how to pronounce the surname of the English
> > > > > composer Thomas Ades and found this site:
>
> > > > >http://www.pronunciationguide.org/thebiglist.html
>
> > > > > Now I know.
>
> > > > > It lists many other prominent figures in classical music.
>
> > > > > Jerry
>
> > > > think two that are not that are frequently mispronounced:
>
> > > > who speaks the language fluently has assured me that the last
> > > > name is pronounced "Bay'ee-num," the first part quickly and
> > > > slightly run together. Dutch musicians have confirmed that. The
> > > > frequently heard "Bynum" is incorrect.
>
> > > The last one looks less incorrect than the first one. It could be
> > > the other way around, depending on how one pronounces "Bay'ee-num".
>
> > � The correct pronunciation of "Bay'ee-num" is "Bay'ee-num." That's
> > the correct way.
>
> > > > The name is pronounced "Cluwee-tens." A very short "u." It's a
> > > > Flemish name, I believe. (This pronunciation was confirmed in the
> > > > booklet for the two-CD EMI Great Conductors set devoted to
> > > > Cluytens.)
>
> > > Are you sure it is pronounced different from Kuijken?
>
> > � Yes. Cluytens was not Dutch, like Kuijken.
>
> Kuijken is not Dutch either.
>
> > He was, I believe,
> > Flemish. Paul Vermel (French-born and reared), who told me this
> > pronunciation, worked with Cluytens on a daily basis as his conducting
> > pupil. He knows how to pronounce his teacher's name and is emphatic
> > about the correct way; I took lessons in pronunciation from him. And
> > as I wrote, the booklet for the EMI Great Conductors CD set devoted to
> > Cluytens contains a careful spelling of hopw Cluytens's name should be
> > pronounced.
>
> The Flemish/Dutch pronunciation of 'Cluytens' of not different from that of
> 'Kuijken'.
> "Cluwee-tens" is a French pronunciation.
I am sure you are correct. However, the first-hand testimony from
Paul Vermel, who studied conducting with Cluytens and knew him well,
is that "Cluwee-tens" is how the name was pronounced by Cluytens, how
Paul addressed him, and how it was pronounced by everyone including
musicians and Cluytens' other pupils. If Cluytens chose to change the
pronunciation to a French one, perhaps because his career was centered
in France, I'd think he'd have the right to do so. This is analogous
to the mentions of Ginastera's wishes concerning the pronunciation of
his last name, mentioned in this thread.
Eddie Oliver
> To recap:
> You questioned my knowledge outright, on my assertion which was correct,
> with your own utter gobbledygook.
>
> If in future, you intend to attack someone's knowledge, make sure you
> know the facts, which in this case you obviously didn't.
You made statements which were blatantly false, as even demonstrated by
your own subsequent posting; and again by your own admission, you
refused to look at identified references which directly prove you wrong.
One was the website of a young person, very much alive, who is an
immediate counterexample to your original assertions, and even to some
degree to your modified ones.
Your only defence is to attack a person who challenged you, claiming
that person is the ignorant one.
You are one of the most extreme examples of arrogant obstinate ignorance
on the internet, but I guess you are proud of that.
Allen
Allen
Curtis Croulet
> all the time. In fact, we used to have programs on WFMT from Radio
> Nederland in which the announcers said "van By-num." And yet when I
> was privileged to meet members of the Concertgebouw Orchestra at a
> reception in 1961 thosewho referred to him pronounced the name "Bay'e-
> num."
Around that time the Concertgebouw visited San Diego, as part of a U.S.
tour. Before the music started, an official from the orchestra gave a short
preliminary speech in which he pronounced the conductor's name, who happened
to be Eugen Jochum, as "Oy-zheen" -- i.e. a soft "g" rather than a hard one.
The other conductor they brought on that tour was Jean Fournet.
James Kahn
>On the subject of DJs massacring names, a friend who went to Lawrence
>College in Appleton, WI worked at the student radio station. He was
>from Evanston, had grown up with classical music and WFMT, so knew how
>to pronounce most of the names of composers and works. No so some of
>his fellow workders, one of whom announced on-air that the next work
>to be played was the Sweet from RAV-els Daphnis and Klow. I am not
>making this up.
On the other hand, I find it a bit pretentious when I hear a DJ going
overboard in attempting to pronounce names exactly as a native speaker
would. It sounds fake and forced. Karl Haas used to do that, IIRC.
It's good to try to get the pronunciation approximately right, but
trying to get every nuance of the accent is like saying "I'm going to
Pa<r>-ee in June" (with '<r>' being an exaggerated approximation of
a French 'r') instead of "Paris" as an English speaker would say it.
--
Jim
New York, NY
(Please remove "nospam." to get my e-mail address)
http://www.panix.com/~kahn
Dontait...@aol.com
wrote:
> > �Just catching up from yesterday.... Yes, this seems to have happened
"Oy-zheen" -- lovely! Well, these pronunciations do vary.
This is almost certainly irrelevant and I ask indulgence, but that
must be the same tour (spring 1961) during which the Concertgebouw
Orchestra played in Orchestra Hall. Jochum conducted: Don Juan by
Strauss, Music for Orchestra by Marius Flothuis, and the Eroica. I
remember two things vividly: the difference in sound between the
Concertgebouw Orchestra and Reiner's CSO, and the fact that two or
three busses pulled up in front of Orchestra Hall around 2:30 PM,
musicians in tails got off carrying their instruments, and at 3 PM the
Concertgebouw Orchestra and Jochum were on stage to begin the concert.
Thanks for a neat reminiscence.
Don Tait
Don Tait
Matthew B. Tepper
be typed in news:4783ab07$0$5149$4c36...@roadrunner.com:
> graham wrote:
>> "Andy" <amhen...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:0d2d0b21-19fb-495a-aa19-3bc07d388d92
@k39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>>> On Jan 7, 12:20 am, Jerry <GPGenn...@aol.com> wrote:
>>>> Here's a site worth bookmarking (especially for those just getting
>>>> started).
>>>>
>>>> I was uncertain how to pronounce the surname of the English composer
>>>> Thomas Ades and found this site:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.pronunciationguide.org/thebiglist.html
>>>>
>>>> Now I know.
>>>>
>>>> It lists many other prominent figures in classical music.
>>>>
>>>> Jerry
>>> Thanks. I am embarrassed at how horribly wrong I was about many of
>>> those names.
>>>
>> Didn't Lennie's father pronounce it Bern-steen?
>> Graham
>
> I have read that in Yiddish it is pronounced "steen", as opposed to the
> German "stine. I have known several people named Weinstein; about half
> pronounce it "Winesteen" and half "Winestine".
My late ex-brother-in-law had a surname that could be pronounced in two
different ways. He and his brother used the different pronunciations. And
sure enough, my nephews differ on how to pronounce their own name.
Matthew B. Tepper
typed in
news:4587e3cf-4a47-42a0...@u10g2000prn.googlegroups.com:
San Francisco's one-time classical station KKHI had an announcer named Bill
Agee, whose name was pronounced "Ay-Jee." When George Rochberg's Violin
Concerto was performed with the San Francisco Symphony (Isaac Stern was
playing it everywhere, having commissioned it and, as we now know, had it cut
to ribbons), KKHI broadcast the performance with Agee doing the standard
intermission interview of the composer. He consistently mispronounced his
name as "Roach-berg." At the end of the interview, he ended with, "Thank
you, Mr. Roach-berg," and the composer replied, "You're welcome, Mr. Aggie."
I actually have this on tape somewhere. Perhaps I'll transfer it to see just
how accurate my memory is. ;--)
Matthew B. Tepper
letters to be typed in news:fm0ia...@drn.newsguy.com:
How about "Vine-Shtine"?
Gerard
In that case - if Cluytens changed the pronunciation of his name from a Flemish
one into a French one - I give up
;-)
FWIW Dutch and Flemish people don't care for that change. They use the "old"
pronunciation, and I think they're right too.
Simon Roberts
>
>> And Berkshire, etc.
>
>Are you saying it's "Bark-shire?"
Yes (provided your "shire" is pronounced properly too (with a sort of short,
soft "uh" for the "ire" and emphasis on the first syllable)). Oh, and, while
we're at it, courts etc. have "clarks", not "clerks" (spelling notwithstanding).
Simon
Johannes Roehl
> Simon Roberts <sd...@comcast.net> appears to have caused the following
> letters to be typed in news:fm0ia...@drn.newsguy.com:
>
>> In article <4783ab07$0$5149$4c36...@roadrunner.com>, Allen says...
>>
>>> I have read that in Yiddish it is pronounced "steen", as opposed to the
>>> German "stine. I have known several people named Weinstein; about half
>>> pronounce it "Winesteen" and half "Winestine".
>> No takers for Weensteen?
>
> How about "Vine-Shtine"?
This would be the standard German way (except for some North Germans who
pronounce "Stein" like "stine", not "shtine").
I am not sure, but I believe that some Yiddish variants may pronounce
"-stein" more like the Englich "stain" or "shtain" rather than the
possibilities mentioned so far. The Germanic influence is, after all,
some medieval kind of German, not the modern variant. But how those
names are pronounced will certainly depend on whether the speaker's
family has been living in an english-speaking country or elsewhere
(your last name affords very few possibilities for creative
pronunciation...)
Johannes
Matthew B. Tepper
letters to be typed in news:5ui8ioF...@mid.individual.net:
We're thinking it may once have been "Töpfer."
TareeDawg
Herts as well. Pronounced HARTS.
Ray (Dawg) Hall, Taree
Dontait...@aol.com
> In <a32249cc-f5f0-408a-bd31-aeb6bd663...@k39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com> bob.har...@comcast.net writes:
> >On the subject of DJs massacring names, a friend who went to Lawrence
> >College in Appleton, WI worked at the student radio station. He was
> >from Evanston, had grown up with classical music and WFMT, so knew how
> >to pronounce most of the names of composers and works. No so some of
> >his fellow workders, one of whom announced on-air that the next work
> >to be played was the Sweet from RAV-els Daphnis and Klow. I am not
> >making this up.
>
> On the other hand, I find it a bit pretentious when I hear a DJ going
> overboard in attempting to pronounce names exactly as a native speaker
> would. �It sounds fake and forced. �Karl Haas used to do that, IIRC.
> It's good to try to get the pronunciation approximately right, but
> trying to get every nuance of the accent is like saying "I'm going to
> Pa<r>-ee in June" (with '<r>' being an exaggerated approximation of
> a French 'r') instead of "Paris" as an English speaker would say it.
I agree. I was a WFMT announcer for 35+ years and we had a rule that
was created by Norman Pellegrini and our former chief announcer, Marty
Robinson: "if how you pronounced something could make listeners look
up and say 'what???' you've done it improperly or incorrectly." Marty
used to cite the title of
Strauss's opera. He said "if you exaggerate it to 'ZAHLL-OH-MAYY" you
are wrong." The rule: say it correctly to the best of your and the
station's knowledge. But the opera fans' "Reegolett'to" and
"Otell'loh" is both stupid and pretentious.
One must have knowledge to begin with....
A fascinating topic for me.
Don Tait
TareeDawg
> TareeDawg wrote:
>
>> To recap:
>> You questioned my knowledge outright, on my assertion which was
>> correct, with your own utter gobbledygook.
>>
>> If in future, you intend to attack someone's knowledge, make sure you
>> know the facts, which in this case you obviously didn't.
>
I made a statement and a reply to another poster which was correct.
Nobody uses the the Raif pronunciation these days.
You contradicted me, and challenged my knowledge with your ignorance,
which is/was absolute. Your ignorance has been exposed.
However, you, the dolt that you appear to be, cannot let it rest can
you? Are you now trying to prove that 'raif' is common usage.
Just go away and infest some other looney tunes group.
Ray (Dawg) Hall, Taree
Peter J
Peter J
is Glos.
Hertfordshire is or certainly was pronounced Harford-sha.
I had a long conversation some years ago in a record shop in Brussels
or is it Brussel or Bruxelles about a composer called Wogan Villiams.
Peter
Peter J
names. I don't think any of the errors were amusing.
Peter
Peter J
"Toaster", which I couldn't find on the map.
Easy enough to find if you know to look for Towcester.
Peter
EM
Peter J <mayb...@talk21.com> - Tue, 8 Jan 2008 14:48:31 -0800 (PST):
> Oh yes, and on my first arriving in the UK, I had an interview in
> "Toaster", which I couldn't find on the map.
>
> Easy enough to find if you know to look for Towcester.
In which case you probably know how to get to Straven. ;-)
EM
Peter J
> OT
>
> Peter J <maybi...@talk21.com> - Tue, 8 Jan 2008 14:48:31 -0800 (PST):
I don't get that one! It may be the late hour or my dimness. Or both.
But I remember reading in today's paper about the poshifying of
certain London areas. Visitors to London may not be aware Battersea
sounds more upmarket when pronounced Ba-TER-see-a, similarly Clapham
becomes Clarm, though I prefer Claffm. Recently people have been
adding an accent to road signs to Barnet, to get Barnay.
Peter