Beware of the Arkive Music idiocy.
Romy the Cat
or positive tendencies and there are the very specific and very
barbaric efforts of selected individuals who are far out of margins.
The case to point my recent events with Pennsylvania company
Arkivmusic.com.
The example I would give you is not just feedback of the pissed
customer but the illustration of VERY emblematic behaved of the entire
industry where an ignorant fool in basemen with his laptop suddenly
become the “Joseph the provider”, courtesy to Mann…
I need to say that I dolt with Arkivmusic many times before and they
are good company. Their Amazon orders are very accurately shipped and
they do fine whatever is expected from them. So, a few days back I got
a few relatively rare CDs from Arkivmusic for some friends of mine and
for myself and I was surprised that the CD did not look like it was
original CD but they look like very cheap counterfeit.
The booklet were printed in bobble-jet printer with crooked an
unfocused text and the CDs themselves were the not the commercial
printed CD but the easy-scratchble CRW burned. The disk was made to
“look” like DG but they not near close. The Arkive CDWs did not sound
even near close to the original DG (I do have the original CDs), the
sound is flat, compressed with all-eaten harmonic and dynamic
inflictions and with stripping any more or less meaningful tonal
characteristics. Furthermore the Arkive CDs do not play on the any of
my CD players. I was trying 8 different CD players/transports,
starting from top of the line high-end transports and ending up with
my car changer and CD walkman. Some of the tracks are playable on PC
but even on PC the Schuricht Bruckner’s 8th Symphonies for some
reasons turned out to have only two movements and Giulini Bruckner’s
7th has Scherzo as last movement.
I did complain to Amazon’s fraud department and here is what I get
from Arkivmusic:
“An ArkivCD is a reissue of an out-of-print or otherwise generally
unavailable recording. It is produced by ArkivMusic and fully
authorized through licensing agreements with the original record
label. The music on the disc is exactly the same as the original and
has not been processed or altered in any way. ArkivCDs come in a
standard jewel case with packaging that faithfully reproduces the
cover art and tray card (back art) of the original release, as well as
booklets with liner notes. Our Arkiv CD's include a printed spine that
is clearly legible on a CD shelf, making for an attractive item that
we are pleased and proud to be able to offer to our customers. All
ArkivCDs are made from high-quality CD-R media that will play in all
standard CD players. As a result of our innovative On Demand process,
the CD and packaging are produced after your order is placed on
ArkivMusic.com. ArkivCDs are usually ready within 3-5 business days.”
OK, first off all let clearly understand that I am not batching about
by bad CDs. Amazon has great customer protection and they did issued
the return authorization. It is not the point. The point is the
general tendency that is very indication in this case. Here are some
points.
1) If there an agreement (I doubt BTW and I would like to contact the
authorities and to clear it up) between ArkivMusic and EMI, DG and so
on for the ArkivMusic (or alike companies) to reproduce the CDs then
nether EMI or DG has knowledge that ArkivMusic make very much inferior
products and use EMI and DG publicity to sell the inferior products.
2) The ArkivMusic is basement sweatshop and their CD cope the do not
make from EMI’s and DG’s dubs masters but by coping the EMI’s and DG’s
commercial CDs. For that the idiots from ArkivMusic need to have
their hands to be cut off and the executives from EMI and DG who
presumable allow them to do it need to have this stupid heads to be
cut off.
3) The cost of “rare” CD that are long out of production of were
printed by very small number might be high. Still if ArkivMusic
inject into market a tone of counterfeited CDs that are made by
“legitimate” coping then what they do selling the CD as they are
“rare”? By definition if ArkivMusic do CD coping then none of the
ArkivMusic CD are considered as “rare” and must cost no more than any
other CD burns that has no value.
The ArkivMusic practice must be stopped as it is objectively not only
vandalized music but also fool most of the people who are not so
conscientious to what they buy and they get as result. I am very
convinced that if even ArkivMusic did found some kind of legal
loophole (like archiving copy reproduction and the similar crap) and
if any of the authorities from EMI and DG would see and hear what the
ArkivMusic doe then would get absolutely furies. I am not saying that
EMI or DG are a sigh of some kind of quality but they do have some
commonly expected norms and quality control. What ArkivMusic burns is
orders of magnitude less acceptable and if ArkivMusic wouls like to
run own label then it is fine but the ArkivMusic CD MUST NOT BE SOLD
as they are EMI or DG CD.
I would like to say the buyer be aware of the new ArkivMusic CDs but
to be aware of what? If ArkivMusic inject into the market own fakes,
it is what they are doing now, then all bets are off to buy even used
CDs online will be dangers as it always might be the crap from
ArkivMusic. All above a great illustration how very specific and very
deliberate actions industry participants destroy any credibility of
the industry. For quite a long time I am proud to be a critic of shops
like (so popular among some regards at this forum) Pristine Record for
instance, primary because the Sound Pristine makes and because the
company is being run by human waste. Still, Pristine clearly labels
own CD as Pristine, so if one consider that Pristine do not have
acceptable sound then she/he has option do not buy the CD. ArkivMusic
music does not do it and this CD are made to be confused with EMI or
DG commercial CDs. This is very bad and considering that the industry
is being run by idiots I can see the number of the cases like
ArkivMusic growing.
Rgs,
Romy the Cat
M forever
> Like with anything else in music industry there are general negative
> or positive tendencies and there are the very specific and very
> barbaric efforts of selected individuals who are far out of margins.
> The case to point my recent events with Pennsylvania company
> Arkivmusic.com.
It's very clear from the website that ArkivCDs are reproductions made
by Arkiv, not original pressings. Only a complete idiot like you could
miss that (even with your very limited English you should have been
able to figure that out) and then complain about it the way you did
here. And no, the burnt CDs don't sound any different from the
original pressings for obvious reasons. That you don't even understand
that really completely pulls out the rug from under the feet of your
protestations of audio mastery.
Norman Schwartz
how did you manage that?
Thornhill
>
> I need to say that I dolt with Arkivmusic many times before and they
> are good company. Their Amazon orders are very accurately shipped and
> they do fine whatever is expected from them. So, a few days back I got
> a few relatively rare CDs from Arkivmusic for some friends of mine and
> for myself and I was surprised that the CD did not look like it was
> original CD but they look like very cheap counterfeit.
Arkiv has been selling CD-Rs of out of print recordings for years:
http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/AlbumGroup?album_group=8
It's all perfectly legal -- they license the recordings from the
labels.
I see that the product description on the Amazon Marketplace is vague:
"This is a reissue produced by ArkivMusic and fully authorized by the
original record label. The packaging includes all liner notes."
It does leave out the fact that the disc is a CD-R and that the liner
notes are photocopies.
Nigel Curtis
I'm afraid your email of grievances was far too long and I gave up.
Also, it's hard to take you that seriously with a moniker of 'Romy the
Cat'.
Nigel Curtis, London
Problembär
The CDs aren't counterfeit, though. They are CD-R copies approved for
sale by EMI, DG, Philips, etc. As long as it was advertised as such, I
don't see the problem. Having said that, I do feel that Arkiv charges
a bit too much for these replicas. Full price for a cheaply made copy?
Get real!
GT
The booklets that come with these CDs are not a faithful copy of the
originals -- they are in fact hardly readable in some instances!
Ward Hardman
[snip]
> I need to say that I dolt with Arkivmusic many times before and they
> are good company.
Is English your second language? "Dealt," not "dolt," is the past
tense of the verb "to deal." "Dolt" means something else entirely:
Main Entry: dolt
Pronunciation: 'd[long o]lt
Function: noun
Etymology: probably akin to Old English "dol" foolish
Date: 1553
: a stupid person
– dolt-ish adjective
– dolt-ish-ly adverb
– dolt-ish-ness noun
- Merriam-Webster's 11th Collegiate
Dictionary
> Furthermore the Arkive CDs do not play on the any of
> my CD players. I was trying 8 different CD players/transports,
> starting from top of the line high-end transports and ending up with
> my car changer and CD walkman. Some of the tracks are playable on PC
> but even on PC the Schuricht Bruckner’s 8th Symphonies for some
> reasons turned out to have only two movements and Giulini Bruckner’s
> 7th has Scherzo as last movement.
Were the other two movements *missing* or just *inaccessible*??? I
have original EMI CDs, e.g. the Hugo Wolf Society, 1931-1938, album CD
1, which just stopped playing about half-way through. I was able to
play the rest of the side by a process of fast-forwards and reverses,
but that is highly irritating. (Hmmmmm, I wonder whether a CD-R would
solve the problem? ;-)
What displayed on your CD player when you loaded the Schuricht/VPO/EMI
Bruckner 8th? My own "rouge et noir" EMI France album (made in USA),
CZS 767279 2, shows
Tracks Time
4 71:18
Even that pesky EMI Hugo Wolf Society album displays all the tracks.
I have purchased CD-R reissue albums from such posters/advertisers in
this NG, such as Pristine and Haydn House and was completely satisfied
with the results, so the medium is not inherently defective.
--Ward Hardman
"The older I get, the more I admire and crave competence,
just simple competence, in any field from adultery to zoology."
- H.L. Mencken
Romy the Cat
> The CDs aren't counterfeit, though. They are CD-R copies approved for
> sale by EMI, DG, Philips, etc. As long as it was advertised as such, I
> don't see the problem. Having said that, I do feel that Arkiv charges
> a bit too much for these replicas. Full price for a cheaply made copy?
You are wrong. The CDs aren't counterfeit as they advertised as EMI
and DG CDs. They made to look like they are original CD and in the
description of the items I did not see any reference that it was CDR
copies. Also, they charges $30-$55 for the CDR copied as it is the
rare out of print CDs. So I do see in what they do a flagellant
attempt aimed to confuse a buyer. Furthermore if the product does not
comply with any minimalistic standards of product then it shall not
bare the EMI or DG emblem. The Haydn House for instance makes own CDW
copiers that I also cannot play in my better CD transports but they do
not hide own defect under the EMI or DG blanket. They make clear that
they are their CDs not the EMI or DG duplication. I am very convinced
that they do not have authorization to duplicate the EMI or DG, in
fact I am planning to call to EMI or DG today and inform them about
what ArriveMusic does and the most important HOW they do it.
Romy the Cat
> What displayed on your CD player when you loaded the Schuricht/VPO/EMI
> Bruckner 8th? My own "rouge et noir" EMI France album (made in USA),
> CZS 767279 2, shows
>
> Tracks Time
> 4 71:18
Nope, the ArciveMusic version display on 2 Tracks. I have the same
original CZS 767279 2 album. The point is that if the ArciveMusic
retards do own copy then the copies must have different catalog number
with their own numbering systems.
M forever
It is very clear from the website that the ArkiveCDs are individually
burnt copies. And they have the logos of the labels on them who made
the original recordings. These posts here make you look an even bigger
idiot than you appeared to be - and that is quite an achievement!
weary flake
> On Jul 29, 7:55�am, Romy the Cat <R...@goodSoundClub.com> wrote:
No, it is not clear, re:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B00000E6LD/
"Seller: arkivmusic
"
"This is a reissue produced by ArkivMusic and fully authorized by the
"original record label. The packaging includes all liner notes.
This does not make it clear that these are CD-r copies. So
Romy the cat is right about arkivmusic confusing the marketplace.
Dumbarton Oaks
Only Romy the Cat can believe that Archive Musik CD's where exact copy
of EMI/DG/anylabel.
Steve de Mena
When you buy a Lyrita CD from Amazon does it tell you its a CDR?
Steve
William Sommerwerck
We know that. You needn't rub yourself in it.
Arkiv is clear about which of their recordings are burned reissues. It's
possible they made a mistake. They're usually good about fixing such things.
IMPORTANT POINT If all Arkiv has is a burned reissue, LOOK ELSEWHERE. You'd
be amazed at how often new, old-stock copies are available. Amazon is a good
place to start.
If you want to gripe about Arkiv, you should complain that virtually every
"recommended" recording (when you display the main list) is an Arkiv
reissue.
Problembär
> On Jul 28, 1:59 pm, Problembär <herrproblemb...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > The CDs aren't counterfeit, though. They are CD-R copies approved for
> > sale by EMI, DG, Philips, etc. As long as it was advertised as such, I
> > don't see the problem. Having said that, I do feel that Arkiv charges
> > a bit too much for these replicas. Full price for a cheaply made copy?
> > Get real!- Hide quoted text –
>
> You are wrong. The CDs aren't counterfeit as they advertised as EMI
> and DG CDs.
Uhh... right. That's exactly what I said: they're not counterfeit.
What's your point?
> So I do see in what they do a flagellant[sic]
> attempt aimed to confuse a buyer.
All I see is just a wish to provide their customers replicas as close
to the originals as possible.
> I am very convinced
> that they do not have authorization to duplicate the EMI or DG, in
> fact I am planning to call to EMI or DG today and inform them about
> what ArriveMusic[sic] does and the most important HOW they do it.
Actually...
> ArkivCDs are out-of-print recordings reissued by ArkivMusic under license from the original record labels.
http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/AlbumGroup?album_group=8
Also...
Norman Schwartz
"Problemb�r" wrote in message
news:dbc7fd05-1a7a-412c...@h7g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On Jul 29, 4:55 am, Romy the Cat <R...@goodSoundClub.com> wrote:
> On Jul 28, 1:59 pm, Problemb�r <herrproblemb...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > The CDs aren't counterfeit, though. They are CD-R copies approved for
> > sale by EMI, DG, Philips, etc. As long as it was advertised as such, I
> > don't see the problem. Having said that, I do feel that Arkiv charges
> > a bit too much for these replicas. Full price for a cheaply made copy?
> > Get real!- Hide quoted text �
>
> You are wrong. The CDs aren't counterfeit as they advertised as EMI
> and DG CDs.
Uhh... right. That's exactly what I said: they're not counterfeit.
What's your point?
> So I do see in what they do a flagellant[sic]
> attempt aimed to confuse a buyer.
All I see is just a wish to provide their customers replicas as close
to the originals as possible.
> I am very convinced
> that they do not have authorization to duplicate the EMI or DG, in
> fact I am planning to call to EMI or DG today and inform them about
> what ArriveMusic[sic] does and the most important HOW they do it.
Actually...
> ArkivCDs are out-of-print recordings reissued by ArkivMusic under license
> from the original record labels.
http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/AlbumGroup?album_group=8
Also...
http://www.emimusic.com/news/2007/arkivmusic-to-release-out-of-print-emi-classics-recordings-as-arkivcds/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I own several ArkivMusic issues, looking at one of them I see the CD logo
printed on their label surface, which I believe to be improper. I emailed
them about this and received no reply. IAE they steadfastly avoid using the
term "CD-R" *anywhere*, as if it were some type of dirty word. Doing so,
they in fact make it one.
Romy the Cat
> printed on their label surface, which I believe to be improper. I emailed
> them about this and received no reply. IAE they steadfastly avoid using the
> term "CD-R" *anywhere*, as if it were some type of dirty word. Doing so,
> they in fact make it one.
Yes, it is correct but the point is deeper. Among 3 counterfeit CD
that I bought one of them had the ArkivMusic logo and two of them did
not. ArkivMusic looks like state in this site that they sell own dubs
of the CDs but I never buy anything from their site but from used CD
resellers and in there is no even information that the CD is
ArkivMusic CD not to mention that it is very bad quality CDR that is
made intentionally to be sold like the original product. I am
absolutely convinced that what ArkivMusic do shell be very much
illegal and I am very convinced that their claim the they have
permission to do THAT from DG and EMI is a pure BS. In fact I did call
to DG and EMI headquarters but I was not able to find right people to
tale and whoever I spoke were not less idiots then many flamboyant
morons from this forum.
Norman Schwartz
"Romy the Cat" wrote in message
news:d144b1e9-3146-47df...@o20g2000yqo.googlegroups.com...
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My hearing (age 75) can't serve as judge as to whether Arkiv's CD-Rs sound
different from standard redbook pressed CDs. However I'm pissed that Arkiv
doesn't include adequate description of their product. Nowhere can be seen
'burned' or 'CD-R'. An unsuspecting customer like Romy believes they're
buying a pressed CD. In one respect CD-Rs exposed to prolonged sunlight will
be destroyed, and even if they will not be so exposed , a customer might
choose to make a back-up a CD-R if they knowingly had one. Equally annoying
is that Amazon permits Arkiv's product to be listed on the same page as
their normal pressed CD counterparts. Even if Arkiv's Amazon description
included the necessary information (which it does not!) it's clearly against
Amazon's policy:
"To list your item in Amazon Marketplace, it must exactly match the product
you are listing against. Listing a different format or edition of an
product, and noting the difference in your seller comments, is not permitted
per our Community Rules."
Steve de Mena
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> My hearing (age 75) can't serve as judge as to whether Arkiv's CD-Rs
> sound different from standard redbook pressed CDs. However I'm pissed
> that Arkiv doesn't include adequate description of their product.
> Nowhere can be seen 'burned' or 'CD-R'.
Why does this not seem to be an issue with Lyrita, and other companies
that use CD-Rs exclusively these days? It seems ArkivCD is more
transparent in that regards.
Steve
Matthew B. Tepper
letters to be typed in news:ybmdnVORR8YcWqXT...@giganews.com:
> Why does this not seem to be an issue with Lyrita, and other companies
> that use CD-Rs exclusively these days? It seems ArkivCD is more
> transparent in that regards.
The Shostakovich CD in Northern Flowers' "Wartime Music" CD is green, and
therefore a CDR. I bought it at Canterbury Records in Pasadena.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!!
"I don�t think right-wing social engineering is any more desirable
than left-wing social engineering. I don�t think imposing radical
change from the right or the left is a very good way for a free
society to operate. I think we need a national conversation to get
to a better Medicare system with more choices for seniors." Former
Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich on "Meet the Press" 15 May 2011
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers.
GP49
disc, I'd be glad to get the ArkivMusic
CD-R, but then I've known all along that's what an ArkivMusik reissue
is. I do wish they would identify
them as CD-Rs individually burned. As to their prices, which to some
may seem excessive for a CD-R costing a few
cents to buy, some labor cost for the person burning the CD-R (this is
a business, not a hobby), and a buck (or a few)
to ship, we don't know how much of the final cost is the license fee
paid to the original record company. ArkivMusik
doesn't get to do this stuff with copyrighted material for free.
The availability of the material is what matters to me. Those who
don't like it, don't buy them. Maybe I've been lucky,
but in most but not all cases, patience and careful searching has
turned up original CDs of the material I wanted.
As for not being able to play the CD-Rs...have you tried playing CD-Rs
that you burn yourself,
on those same players? There are some players that won't play CD-Rs
at all...in fact a while back, one big manufacturer
of expensive Hi-Fi (name starts with "Mc") put out a DVD player that
wouldn't play CD-Rs because the DVD transport they bought
in for production wouldn't. Their answer to those customers who
complained: "The specs don't say it can play
CD-Rs." It amounted to "Tough cookies, you spent thousands of dollars
without reading the specs,
so it's yours unless you want to trade it in for the new model costing
more than a kilobuck extra, that will."
It DID, however, play CR-RWs, which most early Philips/Magnavox CD
players, and those so-called "High End" CD players that used the
contemporary Philips/Magnavox transports, would not.
Norman Schwartz
"Steve de Mena" <st...@stevedemena.com> wrote in message
news:ybmdnVORR8YcWqXT...@giganews.com...
Did I ever say it was any lesser of an issue with Lyrita CD-Rs (I haven't
ever studied or bought any Lyrita discs so I'm completely unaware of what
they say. Moreover it shouldn't be my responsibilty to find out what they're
selling, they should be up front and inform me, such a situation is yet even
more reason to turn me off.) I recently bought a Bridge "CD" from Amazon
which was also turned out being a CD-R, and I'm equally annoyed by all of
them. If those sellers had described their product as CD-Rs, I might be
influenced not to go ahead and buy them. I could choose to buy a used
pressed CD for less (or more) money. At the very least I'd know as how to
properly care for them and would burn a back-up safety copy immediately upon
receipt. That's what I should have been smart enough to do with LS's LITV
CD-Rs and not waited for his inscruction to do so. I'm very aware of the
useful purpose these CD-Rs provide for CM enthusiasts in spite of the fakery
on the part of some of them. Judging from Romy's outrage, ArkivCD is not
sufficiently transparent. Also as CD-R media quality are known to differ
from manufacturer to manufacturer, as well as the date of their manufacture,
a lot more would have to be revealed to make me happy. E.g., my older
players have difficulty playing lightly pigmented CD-Rs, so I'd know right
off the bat which CD-R to choose for a back-up, or in this case being able
to listen to for the first time. Added to those problems, is that neither
Arkiv, Haydn House nor Rediscovery stick to using CD-Rs of the same
manufacture and date. Problems such as these shoudn't ever become mine.
> Steve
herman
> I am very convinced
> that they do not have authorization to duplicate the EMI or DG, in
> fact I am planning to call to EMI or DG today and inform them about
> what ArriveMusic does and the most important HOW they do it.
I think that is a very good use of your time.
And if they hang up? Just call again.
Matthew�B.�Tepper
be typed in news:7515fc2c-365a-4867-bd75-
37c05c...@t9g2000vbs.googlegroups.com:
Or write a stern letter to the Editor of the Times.
Or better yet, to the News of the World.
Andrew Rose
> ...don't see the problem. Having said that, I do feel that Arkiv charges
> a bit too much for these replicas. Full price for a cheaply made copy?
> Get real!
The "cheaply made copy" will cost many times more to make and distribute
than the original mass-produced copy, I can assure you.
--
Andrew Rose
Pristine Classical: "The destination for people interested in historic
recordings..." (Gramophone)
3Bs
wrote:
> IMPORTANT POINT If all Arkiv has is a burned reissue, LOOK ELSEWHERE. You'd
> be amazed at how often new, old-stock copies are available. Amazon is a good
> place to start.
>
> If you want to gripe about Arkiv, you should complain that virtually every
> "recommended" recording (when you display the main list) is an Arkiv
> reissue.
Another important point: you'll save a few dollars by ordering
directly from Arkiv. And if you are so unhappy with the fact that it
is a CD-R, then return it.
William Sommerwerck
news:8691d929-c606-47dd...@f20g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
>> IMPORTANT POINT If all Arkiv has is a burned reissue, LOOK
>> ELSEWHERE. You'd be amazed at how often new, old-stock
>> copies are available. Amazon is a good place to start.
> Another important point: you'll save a few dollars by ordering
> directly from Arkiv.
Not so. Most of the NOS copies I've found cost less than the Arkiv reissue.
Andrew Rose
> In one respect CD-Rs exposed
I'm running a test on this right now. We use Taiyo Yuden Watershield
CD-Rs, which come with a 100-year data-safe guarantee from the manufacturer.
I've had a spare CD rattling round the studio for the last few weeks,
playing side down but not in any kind of cover, so I'm using this for my
little experiment.
I've placed the CD outside on the window ledge. The window faces south
and is exposed to the full force of a powerful southern French sun. It
also had a good deal of weather land on it over the weekend.
I placed the CD there on Friday afternoon, and as of this (Monday)
morning there has been no measurable deterioration in the readability of
the disc. Average C1 BLER rates are below 1 - the industry spec requires
an average of less than 200 for Red Book CDs.
These discs do start out with a much, much lower error rate than any
other CD-R I've come across, and way below those of pressed CDs. What
will be interesting is how it survives the onslaught of direct summer
sun over the next few days. How long can a top quality CD-R last, and
how careful should one expect to have to be with it?
Frank Berger
> On 02/08/2011 17:03, Norman Schwartz wrote:
>> In one respect CD-Rs exposed
>> to prolonged sunlight will be destroyed...
>
> I'm running a test on this right now. We use Taiyo Yuden Watershield
> CD-Rs, which come with a 100-year data-safe guarantee from the
> manufacturer.
> I've had a spare CD rattling round the studio for the last few weeks,
> playing side down but not in any kind of cover, so I'm using this for
> my little experiment.
>
> I've placed the CD outside on the window ledge. The window faces south
> and is exposed to the full force of a powerful southern French sun. It
> also had a good deal of weather land on it over the weekend.
>
> I placed the CD there on Friday afternoon, and as of this (Monday)
> morning there has been no measurable deterioration in the readability
> of the disc. Average C1 BLER rates are below 1 - the industry spec
> requires an average of less than 200 for Red Book CDs.
>
> These discs do start out with a much, much lower error rate than any
> other CD-R I've come across, and way below those of pressed CDs. What
> will be interesting is how it survives the onslaught of direct summer
> sun over the next few days. How long can a top quality CD-R last, and
> how careful should one expect to have to be with it?
Of course you know that whatever the"results" of this experiment they will
be suggestive only. A proper experiment would expose both CDs and CD-Rs to
the elements and multiple copies at that. Has no one ever done this?
Andrew Rose
I agree it's not in any way particularly scientific. I have seen cheaper
CD-Rs fade to nothing following exposure to sunlight - and I know of no
evidence that pressed CDs are in any way affected by this.
What I'm trying to find out is roughly how susceptible the Taiyo Yuden
CD-R dyes are to bleaching from direct strong sunlight. It would be nice
to at least have some general advice to offer our customers on this
front, even if it's not absolutely definitive.
(The latter is made more difficult when you're carrying out such tests
in changeable weather conditions, such as we're currently having. The
Sun's a bit in and out of the clouds today, whereas later in the week
we're expecting several cloudless days. Quite how one would factor that
into a conclusive experiment I don't know!)
Kimba W Lion
>How long can a top quality CD-R last, and
>how careful should one expect to have to be with it?
My "experiment" is a bit different, but convinces me that CD-Rs are pretty
robust:
I have about 30 CD-Rs that are kept in my car full time. Some have been in
there for at least 4 years, probably longer. The car is not garaged, so they
get mighty hot in the summer, and mighty cold in the winter. Not one has shown
the slightest sign of damage, although I don't measure error rates, just
playability on the car's player. These CD-Rs are a mix of all sorts of brands:
Verbatim, Memorex, PNY, Pengo...
The only CD-Rs I've ever had problems with were ones I put paper labels on. A
bath in rubbing alcohol removed the labels and the CD-Rs were restored to full
playability.
Gerard
> On 02/08/2011 17:03, Norman Schwartz wrote:
> > In one respect CD-Rs exposed
> > to prolonged sunlight will be destroyed...
>
> I'm running a test on this right now. We use Taiyo Yuden Watershield
> CD-Rs, which come with a 100-year data-safe guarantee from the
> manufacturer.
>
> I've had a spare CD rattling round the studio for the last few weeks,
> playing side down but not in any kind of cover, so I'm using this for
> my little experiment.
>
> I've placed the CD outside on the window ledge. The window faces south
> and is exposed to the full force of a powerful southern French sun. It
> also had a good deal of weather land on it over the weekend.
>
> I placed the CD there on Friday afternoon, and as of this (Monday)
> morning there has been no measurable deterioration in the readability
> of the disc.
I don't think that this is a serious test (one weekend).
What about half a year?
Frank Berger
I wonder how much value there is to knowing how CD-R's stand up to
mistreatment? Most of us don't use them for frisbees, coasters or leave
them exposed on the dashboard in 120 degree heat. The most useful knowledge
would be how to long do they last *reasonably* cared for. My earliest CD-R
(burned by someone else) dates to around 1998, I think. It still plays
fine. As does a cassette of Dark Side of the Moon and a Night at the Opera
dating to around 1976, that spent around 8 years in the glove compartment
of my car in the Dallas heat without any apparent damage.
Andrew Rose
> I wonder how much value there is to knowing how CD-R's stand up to
> mistreatment? Most of us don't use them for frisbees, coasters or leave
> them exposed on the dashboard in 120 degree heat. The most useful
> knowledge would be how to long do they last *reasonably* cared for. My
> earliest CD-R (burned by someone else) dates to around 1998, I think. It
> still plays fine. As does a cassette of Dark Side of the Moon and a
> Night at the Opera dating to around 1976, that spent around 8 years in
> the glove compartment of my car in the Dallas heat without any apparent
> damage.
You are of course right - the greatest risk to a CD-R in my car is from
scratching, to which a regular CD is equally vulnerable. That's why I
gave up on them and bought a car stereo which currently plays MP3s off a
16GB SD-RAM card, and will also dock with my iPod or a USB stick.
Like you I've had no problem with cassettes of that era, though 8-track
cartridges of a similar vintage invariably require attention before they
can be played - the foam-based backing which holds the tape against the
replay heads turns to sludge after a few years and needs replacing. Oh,
and they sound pretty bad anyway!
What I'd like to be able to say to our customers with regard to CD-R
care is something along the lines of "we don't advise you to leave our
CDs out in direct sunlight for long periods of time, though in tests our
CDs showed no measurable signs of deterioration after X days exposure to
the elements - take good care of them and they'll last you a lifetime."
With the various information and misinformation which circulates here
and elsewhere regarding CD-R vs. pressed CDs, this may well be of some
interest to prospective CD purchasers.
Frank Berger
You could offer a lifetime guarantee of replacement in case of damage.
Gerard
How long is that?
And also when no good care has been taken?
Nobody gives such guarantees.
Kimba W Lion
>I wonder how much value there is to knowing how CD-R's stand up to
>mistreatment? Most of us don't use them for frisbees, coasters or leave
>them exposed on the dashboard in 120 degree heat. The most useful knowledge
>would be how to long do they last *reasonably* cared for.
Well, accelerated aging tests involve extremes of temperature, so one might
assume that no damage after 4+ years of baking and freezing means much longer
life under reasonable conditions. Like you, I have CD-Rs dating back to the
1990s--kept in the house--that are still fine. I'm currently using "100-year"
gold CD-Rs for my biggest projects; I have no idea if they're really any
better, but they're cool.
Cassettes were much more variable. Some could take abuse like you mention;
some had foam-backed pressure pads (like some 8-tracks) that deteriorated, and
some had tape formulations that would develop squeal over time.
On the subject of 8-tracks, RCA had metal springs on their pressure pads while
Warners and Columbia used the foam that turned to goo. However, IME RCA's
splices dried out and broke while the others didn't. RCA's cases were
impossible to open for repairs, the others were easy and a bit of weather
stripping made a good replacement for the foam.
(is that enough topic drift?)
Kip Williams
> Cassettes were much more variable. Some could take abuse like you mention;
> some had foam-backed pressure pads (like some 8-tracks) that deteriorated, and
> some had tape formulations that would develop squeal over time.
I've been able to replace pressure pads when sufficiently motivated.
Unscrew and carefully pop the shell, slip the pad assembly out of its
slot, and replace with a donor assembly from a sacrificial cassette and
put it all back together.
Kip W
Norman Schwartz
"Andrew Rose" <and...@pristineaudio.com> wrote in message
news:4e3f9a75$0$30770$ba4a...@reader.news.orange.fr...
> On 02/08/2011 17:03, Norman Schwartz wrote:
>> In one respect CD-Rs exposed
>> to prolonged sunlight will be destroyed...
>
> I'm running a test on this right now. We use Taiyo Yuden Watershield
> CD-Rs, which come with a 100-year data-safe guarantee from the
> manufacturer.
I did such an experiment many years ago, leaving a disc, reading surface up
and exposed to direct sunlight on a ledge of a back yard deck. After ~ week
it was blank, wiped clean even of any pigment. However it should be noted
that as applies in Target theory, there's no threshold below which you'r
safe and nothing happens, every bit of exposure has an equal chance of
producing a damaging 'hit'. That also includes things like chest and dental
X-rays as well as skin cancer from sun exposure. Nothing's 'safe', remaining
free from damage so long as remains below a certain level, regardless of how
you read it. If you own Magneplanar loudspeakers, adhesives used in them
degrade even when exposed to _'skylight'_ passing through window panes.
Owners maintain them in the dark, using window drapes or covers.
Allen
This isn't a reply to Andrew Rose, but a comment on the thread.
Edison's cylinders were subject to breakage and to wear every time one
was played.
Old shellac 78s were so famously subject to breakage that "broken
record" was a universally understood colloquial expression for repeating
oneself over and over. And they had the same "play it and wear it out"
problem that plagued the cylinders.
In 1948 the LP almost entirely eliminated the breakage problem, but
every play took some of its life.
Then along came various tape formats (actually before LPs forsome uses).
Remember the 8-track cartridges that littered the sides of the roads?
Perhaps the shortest average life of any of the recording media.
Cassettes were better but they too had a life span--jamming, erasures
from magnetic fields, etc.
Then came the wonderful, immortal CD. Not quite. Bronzing, other strange
things.
Then the CD-R. Considering the lack of immortality of all the other
recording media, why should we expect them to be perfect. Does one
really care that much if a CD-R is still around and in perfect playable
condition in 2111? Will all the worriers be around to listen?
As they say, get a life.
Allen
Gerard
Well, it certainly is a subject for discussion and for exchanging experiences.
And it is far more on topic than most posts in this newsgroup.
Do you have problems with that?
Kimba W Lion
>As they say, get a life.
Film and audio preservation is a topic that fascinates me deeply. Whether the
topic be nitrate stock, Eastman Color, tape squeal, or CD-Rs, the longevity of
various media will affect something important, count on it. Factors affecting
the longevity are part of preservation.
Returning to your bit of advice, I generally just ignore threads that don't
interest me rather than get nasty about it.
Frank Berger
A nice post, except for the last sort of nasty bit/
John Wiser
news:7f180$4e402269$53565cf2$17...@cache2.tilbu1.nb.home.nl...
Tepper's, maintains a Plonkkommode of identical size, shape and content. In
any case, shouldn't we all carry armor-plated umbrellas to ward off
meteorites?
JDW
Steve de Mena
I think he meant that ArkivCDs are cheaper direct than through Amazon
Marketplace, particularly if ArkivMusic is having a sale.
Steve
Allen
picked the wrong thing to say. I will try to be more careful and
thoughtful before I hit Send in the future.
Allen
Frank Berger
No problem.
Allen
>>> A nice post, except for the last sort of nasty bit/
>> My apologies for my unthinking remark. I wanted a closer, but I really
>> picked the wrong thing to say. I will try to be more careful and
>> thoughtful before I hit Send in the future.
>> Allen
>
> No problem.
Thank you, Frank.
Allen
Norman Schwartz
"Allen" <all...@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
news:4fCdnVS-gKfIvd3T...@giganews.com...
Most easily said if you've never bought CD-Rs which were lost. I only worry
if they are playable while I'm alive and something makes me want to listen
to them. Being optimistic, I also would like to be comfortable in planning
on listening to them tomorrow, whenever I'm too busy getting a life today...
> As they say, get a life.
>
I could get more of a life if I spent less time copying CD-Rs, fearing they
might go bad. The most modern CD-Rs are very lightly pigmented and these
have trouble being read by my earliest CD players. So when I buy one of
those CD-Rs I test play them in my older CDPs. I often find that they load
easily and/or all the tracks readable, so I copy them to a 'better' CD-R. I
think that there will be an unlimited supply of 'better' CD-R since the
'music variety' (taxed) CD-Rs which I ever bought have the desired amount of
pigmentation. I also copy pressed CDs whenever I think I see evidence of
their setting down the path of a bronzed death. I would be most satisified
to live as long as my pressed CDs which appear normal. Did anyone ever say
"perfect sound forever" about the 15 cent computer blanks I' able to buy
from Costco?
Steve de Mena
> to live as long as my pressed CDs which appear normal. Did anyone ever say
> "perfect sound forever" about the 15 cent computer blanks I' able to buy
> from Costco?
Costco probably sells excellent blanks.
Steve
Norman Schwartz
"Steve de Mena" <st...@stevedemena.com> wrote in message
news:57ednS-vc7D1adzT...@giganews.com...
A while ago I purchased two 100 disk spindles of TDK "Data CD-Rs for
computer burning" on a buy 1, get the second for free sale. It turned out
these were manufactured by Ritek and play easily in all my CDPs, even the
earliest ones. (The data side happen to be a golden color.) All my Costco
bought 'data' CD-Rs burn and play normally in one or another player. It's
only my early bought players which are fussy, and I don't think the
explanation lies on the explanation that their lasers are weak or wearing
out. However, I did purchase some Sony DVD+R blanks (at Costco) which were
rejected by one of my computer DVD burning drives. I returned it and they
provided a refund, no questions asked.
> Steve
Dufus
> In any case, shouldn't we all carry armor-plated umbrellas to ward off
> meteorites?
>
" A man's got to believe in something. I believe I'll have another
drink."
WC Fields
(Wink)
Romy the Cat
> Even if Arkiv's Amazon description
> included the necessary information (which it does not!) it's clearly against
> Amazon's policy:
>
> "To list your item in Amazon Marketplace, it must exactly match the product
> you are listing against. Listing a different format or edition of an
> product, and noting the difference in your seller comments, is not permitted
> per our Community Rules."
Yep, Norman, you are the only one, in contrary to the pantheon of the
local idiots, who got the point. If you found a CD at Amazon that you
like then there are options to buy the SAME CD from different
resellers, perhaps used. The Arkiv's crappy fake CD-Rs are listed as
the IDENTICAL ITEMS to commercial CDs, with the same SCU numbers and
the SAME CATALOG NUMBER and there is absolutely no way to recognize
from there that it is not the use copy of the original disk but CD-R
made by a Moron in his basement. I sincerely wish that the assholes
who ran Arkiv when they need a doctors would end up with ignorant
armature, fake doctor who made-un his doctors diplomas in Photoshop.
William Sommerwerck
developed a new writable optical disk that uses a "stone-like" material
(rather than dyes). It supposedly has a near-indefinite life. The only
"hitch" is a minor one -- it takes about 5X as much power to burn it, but
this not likely to be a problem.
When I find the article, I'll post it.
Larry Dioh
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Pure Chem Shop
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CONTACT DETAILS:
........
Hello all clients !
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Format is:
|Card Number|Exp. Date|Cc/Cc|First Name|Last Name|Street|City|State|ZipCode|Country|Phone|Type Of Card|Bank Name|
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+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ MY CARDS PRICE LIST ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
**clone card prices LIST**
---- YESCARDS pour DAB et CARTE Clone © DIRECTEMENT UTILISABLE
PRIX POUR LES YESCARDS
Platinium visa - 350 euro ---- plafond 10000 euros
Platinium Visa - 450 euros ----> plafond 20000 euros
Platinium Mastercard - 500 euros ----> plafond 22500 euros
Platinium Visa - 600 euros ----> 27000 euros
Platinium Mastercard - 650 euros ---> 29000 euros
Infinity Visa - 750 euros ----> plafond 35000 euros
Infinity Mastercard - 850 euros ----> plafond 45000 euros
Achat et Livraison Express
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===> List Price for fresh Credit Card (CC,CCV,Ccs)
- US (visa/master) = 35$ per 1
- US (Amex,Dis) = 65$ per 1
- US Bin = 15$, US Dob = 65$
- US fullz info = 65$ per 1
- UK (visa/master) = 50$ per 1
- UK (Amex,Dis) = 60$ per 1
- UK Bin = 30$, UK Dob = 65$
- UK fullz info = 85$ per 1
- CA (visa/master) = 50$ per 1
- CA (Amex,Dis) = 50$ per 1
- CA Bin = 25$, CA Dob = 55$
- CA fullz info = 65$ per 1
- AU (visa/master) = 65$
- AU (Amex,Dis) = 65$ per 1
- AU Bin = 30$, AU Dob = 65$
- AU fullz info = 65$ per 1
- EU (Visa,Master) = 65$ per 1
- EU (Amex,Dis) = 65$ per 1
- EU Bin = 35$, AU Dob = 65$
- EU fullz info = 60$ per 1
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Others Country:
- Italy = 65$ per 1 (fullz info = 65$)
- Spain = 65$ per 1 (fullz info = 65$)
- Denmark = 65$ per 1 (fullz info = 65$)
- Sweden = 65$ per 1 (fullz info = 65$)
- France = 65$ per 1 (fullz info = 65$)
- Germany = 65$ per 1 (fullz info = 65$)
- Ireland = 65$ per 1 (fullz info = 65$)
- Mexico = 65$ per 1 (fullz info = 65$)
- Asia = 85$ per 1 (fullz info = 65$)
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* SPECIAL CARD (With DOB + Bin, Full Info) good bin, high balance:
30 CC Dob + Bin US = 450$
30 CC Dob + Bin UK = 500$
20 CC Dob + Bin CA = 500$
20 CC Dob + Bin AU = 500$
20 CC Dob + Bin EU = 600$
* SSN / DOB:
150$ - 200$ = 400 info SSN
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===> Price for track1&2:
** Usa :101
- Visa Classic, MasterCard Standart =45$
- Visa Gold|Platinum|Business, MasterCard Gold|Platinum = 50$
- American Express = $50 (Without SID)
- Discover = $50
** Canada: 101 201
- Visa Classic, MasterCard Standart = 45$
- Visa Gold|Platinum|Business, MasterCard Gold|Platinum = 50$
** EU, UK: 101 201
- Classic|Standart = 60$
- Gold|Platinum = 70$
- Business|Signature|Purchase|Corporate|World = 100$
** ASIA/AUSTRALIA/Exotic: 101 201 121
- MasterCard| Visa Classic = $50
- Visa Gold|Platinum|Corporate|Signature|Business = $70
** Other countries: 101 201
- MasterCard| Visa Classic = 50$
- Visa Gold|Platinum|Corporate|Signature|Business = 70$
===> Price for track and Track 1 & 2(With/without Pin):
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- Tracks 1&2 US = 100$/1, No Pin 50$
- Tracks 1&2 UK = 110$/1, No Pin 60$
- Tracks 1&2 EU = 120$/1, No Pin 80$
- Tracks 1&2 AU = 120$/1, No Pin 80$
- Tracks 1&2 CA = 120$/1, No Pin
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===> Western Union transfer (WU Transfer) ($/£/â?¬)
(EU,UK,Asia,Canada,US,France,Gunion online, hacking into western union, hack western union money transfer online,
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$300 for MTCN $3000 (get MTCN vs Sender's details)
$500 for MTCN $6000 (get MTCN vs Sender's details)
$700 for MTCN $9000 (get MTCN vs Sender's details)
$900 for MTCN $15000 (get MTCN vs Sender's details)
Give me your western union receive info and payment me fee. Then i will do transfer for you, After about 30 mins
* Selling Email and pass - Email leads:
1000 Email and pass of (US,UK,CA,EU,AU,..) and many other countries = 50$
5000 (US,UK,AU), World(Mixed), Jobseeker, AOL email leads = 50$
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* BANK LOGIN & ACCOUNT PAYPAL GOOD AND SAFE *
(HSBC, Barclays, Welsfargo, BOA, Chase, Credit union, Halifax,.. and many Bank other)
Bank Login : Username + Password Number
Bank transfer: Holder Name Use Bank + Number Account Bank + Bank Name + Address Full.
Have all details for login and i can transfer balance to your account if you want.
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- Account balance:
**US: (Bank of America,Chase,Wells Fargo...)
. Balance 3000$ = 300$
. Balance 6000$ = 500$
. Balance 8000$ = 600$
. Balance 12000$ = 800$
. Balance 15000$ = 1000$
. Balance 20000$ = 1200$
**UK: (LLOYDS TSB,BARCLAYS,Standard Chartered,HSBC...)
. Balance 3000 GBP = 400$
. Balance 6000 GBP = 600$
. Balance 10000 GBP = 800$
. Balance 12000 GBP = 900$
. Balance 16000 GBP = 1000$
. Balance 20000 GBP = 1500$
(Other fees transfer depend on amount you want)
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- PayPal:
+ Sell Visa Debit US : 120$
+ Paypal with pass email = 60$/paypal
+ Paypal don't have pass email = 50$/Paypal
+ Paypal Veritified with balance and price (Email address + password) full infomation:
100$ = 1 Account PP 2000$
200$ = 1 Account PP 4500$
300$ = 1 Account PP 8500$
500$ = 1 Account PP 13000$
===> Price of ATM Card ($/£/€):
ATM card 4000$ = 250$
ATM card 7000$ = 450$
ATM card 6000$ = 350$
ATM card 8000$ = 750$
ATM card 2000£ = 150$
ATM card 5000£ = 300
=> MY RULES:
- Customer want test please buy for test and if the cc is good customer can buy more from me, pls dont ask free test and sample or screenshot with me.
- Customer buy over 15, I will discount for you.
- I have a replacement policy for bad cc. All my cc are inspected before sale.
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> Like with anything else in music industry there are general negative
> or positive tendencies and there are the very specific and very
> barbaric efforts of selected individuals who are far out of margins.
> The case to point my recent events with Pennsylvania company
> Arkivmusic.com.
> The example I would give you is not just feedback of the pissed
> customer but the illustration of VERY emblematic behaved of the entire
> industry where an ignorant fool in basemen with his laptop suddenly
> become the “Joseph the provider”, courtesy to Mann…
> I need to say that I dolt with Arkivmusic many times before and they
> are good company. Their Amazon orders are very accurately shipped and
> they do fine whatever is expected from them. So, a few days back I got
> a few relatively rare CDs from Arkivmusic for some friends of mine and
> for myself and I was surprised that the CD did not look like it was
> original CD but they look like very cheap counterfeit.
> The booklet were printed in bobble-jet printer with crooked an
> unfocused text and the CDs themselves were the not the commercial
> printed CD but the easy-scratchble CRW burned. The disk was made to
> “look” like DG but they not near close. The Arkive CDWs did not sound
> even near close to the original DG (I do have the original CDs), the
> sound is flat, compressed with all-eaten harmonic and dynamic
> inflictions and with stripping any more or less meaningful tonal
> characteristics. Furthermore the Arkive CDs do not play on the any of
> my CD players. I was trying 8 different CD players/transports,
> starting from top of the line high-end transports and ending up with
> my car changer and CD walkman. Some of the tracks are playable on PC
> but even on PC the Schuricht Bruckner’s 8th Symphonies for some
> reasons turned out to have only two movements and Giulini Bruckner’s
> 7th has Scherzo as last movement.
> I did complain to Amazon’s fraud department and here is what I get
> from Arkivmusic:
> “An ArkivCD is a reissue of an out-of-print or otherwise generally
> unavailable recording. It is produced by ArkivMusic and fully
> authorized through licensing agreements with the original record
> label. The music on the disc is exactly the same as the original and
> has not been processed or altered in any way. ArkivCDs come in a
> standard jewel case with packaging that faithfully reproduces the
> cover art and tray card (back art) of the original release, as well as
> booklets with liner notes. Our Arkiv CD's include a printed spine that
> is clearly legible on a CD shelf, making for an attractive item that
> we are pleased and proud to be able to offer to our customers. All
> ArkivCDs are made from high-quality CD-R media that will play in all
> standard CD players. As a result of our innovative On Demand process,
> the CD and packaging are produced after your order is placed on
> ArkivMusic.com. ArkivCDs are usually ready within 3-5 business days.”
> OK, first off all let clearly understand that I am not batching about
> by bad CDs. Amazon has great customer protection and they did issued
> the return authorization. It is not the point. The point is the
> general tendency that is very indication in this case. Here are some
> points.
> 1) If there an agreement (I doubt BTW and I would like to contact the
> authorities and to clear it up) between ArkivMusic and EMI, DG and so
> on for the ArkivMusic (or alike companies) to reproduce the CDs then
> nether EMI or DG has knowledge that ArkivMusic make very much inferior
> products and use EMI and DG publicity to sell the inferior products.
> 2) The ArkivMusic is basement sweatshop and their CD cope the do not
> make from EMI’s and DG’s dubs masters but by coping the EMI’s and DG’s
> commercial CDs. For that the idiots from ArkivMusic need to have
> their hands to be cut off and the executives from EMI and DG who
> presumable allow them to do it need to have this stupid heads to be
> cut off.
> 3) The cost of “rare” CD that are long out of production of were
> printed by very small number might be high. Still if ArkivMusic
> inject into market a tone of counterfeited CDs that are made by
> “legitimate” coping then what they do selling the CD as they are
> “rare”? By definition if ArkivMusic do CD coping then none of the
> ArkivMusic CD are considered as “rare” and must cost no more than any
> other CD burns that has no value.
> The ArkivMusic practice must be stopped as it is objectively not only
> vandalized music but also fool most of the people who are not so
> conscientious to what they buy and they get as result. I am very
> convinced that if even ArkivMusic did found some kind of legal
> loophole (like archiving copy reproduction and the similar crap) and
> if any of the authorities from EMI and DG would see and hear what the
> ArkivMusic doe then would get absolutely furies. I am not saying that
> EMI or DG are a sigh of some kind of quality but they do have some
> commonly expected norms and quality control. What ArkivMusic burns is
> orders of magnitude less acceptable and if ArkivMusic wouls like to
> run own label then it is fine but the ArkivMusic CD MUST NOT BE SOLD
> as they are EMI or DG CD.
> I would like to say the buyer be aware of the new ArkivMusic CDs but
> to be aware of what? If ArkivMusic inject into the market own fakes,
> it is what they are doing now, then all bets are off to buy even used
> CDs online will be dangers as it always might be the crap from
> ArkivMusic. All above a great illustration how very specific and very
> deliberate actions industry participants destroy any credibility of
> the industry. For quite a long time I am proud to be a critic of shops
> like (so popular among some regards at this forum) Pristine Record for
> instance, primary because the Sound Pristine makes and because the
> company is being run by human waste. Still, Pristine clearly labels
> own CD as Pristine, so if one consider that Pristine do not have
> acceptable sound then she/he has option do not buy the CD. ArkivMusic
> music does not do it and this CD are made to be confused with EMI or
> DG commercial CDs. This is very bad and considering that the industry
> is being run by idiots I can see the number of the cases like
> ArkivMusic growing.
> Rgs,
> Romy the Cat
