Albert Ferber: Complete Debussy

[td]

EMI France has delved into its archives to come up with the
mastertapes of Albert Ferber's complete Debussy cycle originally
recorded for Discophiles Francais, I believe.

Just received my copy. About $20. What a bargain! I had already
puchased the Forgotten Recordings version of the Preludes, which I can
now safely pass on to someone else, I think.

If ever there was a "must have" for a lover of Debussy's piano music
in 2011 this is certainly "it".

Beautifully recorded (by Andre Charlin, of course) on a warm-toned
Hamburg Steinway (the way they used to sound!), and lovingly played,
it goes to the top of the list (along with Gieseking pre-war, and
Philippe Cassard's readings on that magnificent 1905 Bechstein concert
grand Accord and Astree, but due out on Universal in 2012, I think).
Of course it is not, one has to admit, absolutely "complete", missing
various bits and pieces, all trivia. All the big important pieces are
here.

EMI 5099 083380 2 0 (4 CDs)

TD

[td]

Correction: Ducretet-Thomson was the original label, not Discophiles
francais. Sometimes very hard to rid oneself of bad facts.

TD

[Dufus]

>On Dec 22, 5:21 am, td <tomdedea...@mac.com> wrote:
>is. Sometimes very hard to rid oneself of bad facts.
>
>

Apparently a very versatile pianist ; recordings of the taxing
Rachmaninoff 1st Piano Sonata and Chopin Variations, as well as the
Balakirev Piano Sonata , are here:

http://www.youtube.com/user/1musikpensionaer#p/u

Dufus

[Matthew B. Tepper]

Dufus <steve...@gmail.com> appears to have caused the following letters to
be typed in news:a6d3a07d-5033-4582-a4c2-
7c845b...@y18g2000yqy.googlegroups.com:

>>On Dec 22, 5:21 am, td <tomdedea...@mac.com> wrote:
>>is. Sometimes very hard to rid oneself of bad facts.

Like supposing that an obscure, seriously ill pianist could suddenly bring
forth an outpouring of recordings of whole swaths of piano repertoire.

> Apparently a very versatile pianist ; recordings of the taxing
> Rachmaninoff 1st Piano Sonata and Chopin Variations, as well as the

> Balakirev Piano Sonata, are here:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/user/1musikpensionaer#p/u
>
> Dufus

--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
Read about "Proty" here: http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers

[Mort]

His 2-CD set of Faure's piano music is absolutely gorgeous. Originally
issued on poor quality vinyl in the UK, on a budget label, later
published in good-sounding CDs. He was Swiss, but lived in London for
many years, and was also an excellent piano teacher.

Mort Linder

[graham]

"Matthew B. Tepper" <oy兀earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:Xns9FC34D4A26D...@216.168.3.70...

> Dufus <steve...@gmail.com> appears to have caused the following letters
> to
> be typed in news:a6d3a07d-5033-4582-a4c2-
> 7c845b...@y18g2000yqy.googlegroups.com:
>
>>>On Dec 22, 5:21 am, td <tomdedea...@mac.com> wrote:
>>>is. Sometimes very hard to rid oneself of bad facts.
>
> Like supposing that an obscure, seriously ill pianist could suddenly bring
> forth an outpouring of recordings of whole swaths of piano repertoire.
>

FFS GIVE IT A REST!!!!!!!

[Ray Hall]

Mort wrote:

> His 2-CD set of Faure's piano music is absolutely gorgeous. Originally
> issued on poor quality vinyl in the UK, on a budget label, later
> published in good-sounding CDs. He was Swiss, but lived in London for
> many years, and was also an excellent piano teacher.
>
> Mort Linder

I had the LPs. His Faure was indeed superb. I'll seek out the CDs if
still available.

Ray Hall, Taree

[wagnerfan]

Sure, when Deacon stops acting like an asshole.

Wagner fan

[bassppn]

On Dec 22, 3:15 pm, wagnerfan <ivanmax...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 22 Dec 2011 11:36:03 -0700, "graham" <g.ste...@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
> >"Matthew B. Tepper" <oyþ@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> >news:Xns9FC34D4A26D...@216.168.3.70...
> >> Dufus <steveha...@gmail.com> appears to have caused the following letters

> >> to
> >> be typed in news:a6d3a07d-5033-4582-a4c2-

> >> 7c845b2ad...@y18g2000yqy.googlegroups.com:

>
> >>>>On Dec 22, 5:21 am, td <tomdedea...@mac.com> wrote:
> >>>>is. Sometimes very hard to rid oneself of bad facts.
>
> >> Like supposing that an obscure, seriously ill pianist could suddenly bring
> >> forth an outpouring of recordings of whole swaths of piano repertoire.
>
> >FFS GIVE IT A REST!!!!!!!
>
>  Sure, when Deacon stops acting like an asshole.
>

> Wagner fan- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

once an assole, always an asshole
AB

[td]

On Dec 22, 4:50 pm, George <gperkins...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Dec 22, 6:04 am, td <tomdedea...@mac.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

> Hi Tom,
>
> Can you tell me the dates of the recordings?

1953-1956.

Salle Adyar, Paris.

TD

[td]

On Dec 22, 1:36 pm, "graham" <g.ste...@shaw.ca> wrote:
> "Matthew B. Tepper" <oyþ@earthlink.net> wrote in messagenews:Xns9FC34D4A26D...@216.168.3.70...> Dufus <steveha...@gmail.com> appears to have caused the following letters

> > to
> > be typed in news:a6d3a07d-5033-4582-a4c2-

> > 7c845b2ad...@y18g2000yqy.googlegroups.com:

>
> >>>On Dec 22, 5:21 am, td <tomdedea...@mac.com> wrote:
> >>>is. Sometimes very hard to rid oneself of bad facts.
>
> > Like supposing that an obscure, seriously ill pianist could suddenly bring
> > forth an outpouring of recordings of whole swaths of piano repertoire.
>
> FFS GIVE IT A REST!!!!!!!

Tepper can't help himself.

A toad.

Everything he says he has already said before hundreds of times.

TD

[td]

On Dec 22, 3:15 pm, wagnerfan <ivanmax...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, 22 Dec 2011 11:36:03 -0700, "graham" <g.ste...@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
> >"Matthew B. Tepper" <oyþ@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> >news:Xns9FC34D4A26D...@216.168.3.70...
> >> Dufus <steveha...@gmail.com> appears to have caused the following letters

> >> to
> >> be typed in news:a6d3a07d-5033-4582-a4c2-

> >> 7c845b2ad...@y18g2000yqy.googlegroups.com:

>
> >>>>On Dec 22, 5:21 am, td <tomdedea...@mac.com> wrote:
> >>>>is. Sometimes very hard to rid oneself of bad facts.
>
> >> Like supposing that an obscure, seriously ill pianist could suddenly bring
> >> forth an outpouring of recordings of whole swaths of piano repertoire.
>
> >FFS GIVE IT A REST!!!!!!!
>
>  Sure, when Deacon stops acting like an asshole.

For you, slimy little mongrel, I will always be here to be your
favourite asshole, to shit on you as well as give you your favourite
golden shower.

One sick puppy.

TD

[td]

Agreed.

TD

[Dufus]

On Dec 22, 5:04 am, td <tomdedea...@mac.com> wrote:


About $ 16.50 USD at Amazon - US now :

http://www.amazon.com/Debussy-Piano-Works/dp/B005EVV5WW/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1324592306&sr=1-1

Dufus

[td]

On Dec 22, 5:19 pm, Dufus <steveha...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Dec 22, 5:04 am, td <tomdedea...@mac.com> wrote:
>
> About $ 16.50 USD at Amazon - US now :
>

> http://www.amazon.com/Debussy-Piano-Works/dp/B005EVV5WW/ref=sr_1_1?s=...

Yes. I just gave an "average" price.

TD

[td]

On Dec 23, 2:59 am, Terry <b...@clown.invalid> wrote:
> On Fri, 23 Dec 2011 14:24:58 +1100, George wrote
> (in article
> <b04702eb-6b5e-4170-8097-c1fb073d8...@u6g2000vbg.googlegroups.com>):

>
> > On Dec 22, 5:19 pm, Dufus <steveha...@gmail.com> wrote:

> >> On Dec 22, 5:04 am, td <tomdedea...@mac.com> wrote:
>
> >> About $ 16.50 USD at Amazon - US now :
>

> >>http://www.amazon.com/Debussy-Piano-Works/dp/B005EVV5WW/ref=sr_1_1?s=...
>
> >> Dufus
>
> > Yes, I just ordered a copy and it was that price shipped!
>
> > Thanks for the date info, Tom.
>
> > George
>
> When it comes, would you mind letting us know what you think of it? I read
> some reviews that were not fulsome in praise of the recording quality. If
> it's been remastered, I'd be glad to know. One can get Gieseking for about
> the same price.

Well, yes. But as HCS rightly remarked, Gieseking after WW II was not
the pianist he was before it.
in
Indeed, his Angel (EMI) set recorded in the mid 1950s isn't a patch on
his pre-war Debussy recordings, which are not complete, alas.

The recorded sound of the Andre Charlin-recorded set is marvelous. How
me manages to get so close to the piano and yet retain that
"hammerless piano" sound Debussy thought of as his ideal is beyond me.
Ferber's warm, flexible, and yet variegated playing (depending upon
the piece) is a joy. The Etudes have never sounded less like ice cubes
rattling in a tin cup.

Naturally, Jean-Efflam Bavouzet takes top honours for modern recording
(and Cassard also, when it resurfaces) but you can't even buy ONE of
Bavouzet's CDs for the price you'll pay for the entire Ferber set.

If you miss this one - it just won't last in the catalogue, you know
that, of course - you are too stupid for words. Mind you, you have to
like Debussy's piano music.

TD

[Dufus]

On Dec 23, 4:38 am, td <tomdedea...@mac.com> wrote:

> Well, yes. But as HCS rightly remarked, Gieseking after WW II was not
> the pianist he was before it.
>  in
> Indeed, his Angel (EMI) set recorded in the mid 1950s isn't a patch on
> his pre-war Debussy recordings, which are not complete, alas.

One of my bigger disappointments was a Gieseking 50's Debussy lp, Pour
le Piano, Estampes,Images. On the other hand, I find his late Brahms
recordings of that era much better ; you ?

Dufus

[Alan Cooper]

Dufus <steve...@gmail.com> wrote in
news:58d5bfcf-14bb-4e14...@l29g2000yqf.googlegroups.
com:

I agree with both Steve and TD when it comes to Gieseking's '50s Debussy. I've
never warmed to it either. OTOH, I ordered Ferber's immediately. While we're on
the subject of bargain-priced Debussy piano music that isn't likely to be in print
for long, there's also this Monique Haas collection:

http://www.amazon.com/Monique-Haas-Plays-Debussy-Ravel/dp/B000QFBW5G .

Around $20 from Amazon sellers for some terrific performances, including her
crystalline Ravel along with her Debussy.

AC

[Matthew B. Tepper]

Alan Cooper <amco...@NOSPAMoptonline.net> appears to have caused the

following letters to be typed in

news:Xns9FC469FF3B94Dam...@209.197.15.254:

And of course, none of those are truly "complete," as they lack the piece
Debussy wrote for the friends who supplied him with coal, and also some
juvenilia which has survived, I think.

[pianomaven]

On Dec 23, 2:08 pm, George <gperkins...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Which CD issue of the pre-war Gieseking Debussy do you have? The VAI
> or Pearl? It's a shame that Naxos has not reissued this material, for
> the Pearl CDs are long OOP and the VAI is overfiltered.

Both!

If you have the GPE Gieseking sets, you already have all of it, or
nearly, I seem to recall. EMI provided most of the transfers. Others
were done in New York. Seth Winner? I forget. It's been over 12 years.

TD

[Steve Emerson]

Good news. Thanks for posting.

SE.

[Steve Emerson]

In article
<1608205a-0e7a-4b87...@z17g2000vbe.googlegroups.com>,

George <gperk...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Which CD issue of the pre-war Gieseking Debussy do you have? The VAI
> or Pearl? It's a shame that Naxos has not reissued this material, for
> the Pearl CDs are long OOP and the VAI is overfiltered.

Gieseking's Debussy is some of the most overrated material in the
catalog.

Cortot, ABM, Monique Haas, Casadesus, Helffer, Ericourt, Marcelle Meyer,
Jacobs, Kocsis, Richter, Zimerman, Ciani, and Catherine Collard are just
a few of the pianists who recorded large amounts of the man's music in
ways that have eclipsed WK. Terrific musician in lots of repertoire
though he be.

Just MHO. And looking forward to Ferber, some of which I nearly acquired
on LP many times.

SE.

[Steve Emerson]

In article
<10cd0a51-9a0d-41c9...@s5g2000vbj.googlegroups.com>,
George <gperk...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On Dec 23, 6:20 pm, Steve Emerson <eme...@n-n-nospamsonic.net> wrote:
> > In article
> > <1608205a-0e7a-4b87-80c4-b1d7683a7...@z17g2000vbe.googlegroups.com>,

> I love almost everything Cortot and Richter has done, so I fully agree
> there. I guess you don't enjoy Michelangeli's Debussy?

I do, I do -- listed above as ABM. Not as enthusiastic as you about
Arrau's, though can see why you esteem it. There are other worthies too.
It was something of a top-of-the-head list.

SE.

> Arrau is great
> in Debussy too, IMO.
>
> George

[George]

On Dec 23, 7:27 pm, Steve Emerson <eme...@n-n-nospamsonic.net> wrote:
> I do, I do -- listed above as ABM. Not as enthusiastic as you about
> Arrau's, though can see why you esteem it. There are other worthies too.
> It was something of a top-of-the-head list.
>

Sorry, I read too fast.

George

[td]

On Dec 23, 6:23 pm, George <gperkins...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Thanks, I had assumed that the GPOTC set was the later recordings.

LOL.

Well, it could easily have been. EMI has been studiously and
shamefully ignoring Gieseking's prewar recordings for decades.

HCS was right on that one. After the war Gieseking was a different
pianist entirely.

TD

[George]

I checked the 2CD VAI set and there is quite a bit there that isn't on
the GPOTC set. This includes Suite Bergamesque, Valse, Images I and
II, Reverie, Children's Corner
Suite, Deux Arabesques and L'Isle Joyeuse.

George

[mandryka]

On Dec 24, 12:27 am, Steve Emerson <eme...@n-n-nospamsonic.net> wrote:
> In article

> <10cd0a51-9a0d-41c9-8352-40fa16c6f...@s5g2000vbj.googlegroups.com>,

Here are some random thoughts.

If you like Michelangeli's Debussy Steve be sure to get the last
recital disc -- a Hamburg all D|ebussy concert. An audience recording,
with about the same level of sound quality as Daniel Cianni's Chopin
Nocturnes. The playing is wonderful -- Children's Corner and Images
especially. The final recordings -- all except the concertos with
Garben -- show a new side to the man -- more contemplative than
before.

Following the Hatto trail has led me to three wonderful Debussy
pianists -- and finally, some Etudes recordings which are really
interesting. The pianists in question are Noriko Ogawa and Margit
Rahkonen. I've also been enjoying Francois-Joel Thiollier's rather
dreamy, psychedelic Preludes on Naxos -- though the latter may just
be my bad taste!

[bassppn]

> TD- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

so tell us in what way was he entirely different

AB

[td]

No point.

You're deaf. You wouldn't hear anyway.

TD

[Allan Evans]

Walter Legge deserves credit for the change in Gieseking's recordings.
His live performances are similar, before and after the War.

[David O.]

On 23 Dec 2011 15:25:11 GMT, Alan Cooper

<amco...@NOSPAMoptonline.net> wrote:

>I agree with both Steve and TD when it comes to Gieseking's '50s Debussy. I've
>never warmed to it either.

What do you think of Paul Jacobs's Debussy (the Preludes, Images, &c.)
on Nonesuch?

[Steve Emerson]

In article
<11b1995d-20f1-48b2...@h11g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>,

mandryka <howie...@btinternet.com> wrote:

> Here are some random thoughts.
>
> If you like Michelangeli's Debussy Steve be sure to get the last
> recital disc -- a Hamburg all D|ebussy concert. An audience recording,
> with about the same level of sound quality as Daniel Cianni's Chopin
> Nocturnes. The playing is wonderful -- Children's Corner and Images
> especially. The final recordings -- all except the concertos with
> Garben -- show a new side to the man -- more contemplative than
> before.

I'll check it out. I do have some late '80s ABM Debussy, I think, but
not this. (For some reason, when I watched a full DVD of ABM playing
Debussy, it seemed really ponderous and near-soporific.)

> Following the Hatto trail has led me to three wonderful Debussy
> pianists -- and finally, some Etudes recordings which are really
> interesting. The pianists in question are Noriko Ogawa and Margit
> Rahkonen.

I have my copy of Rahkonen up on Amazon. I enjoyed it a few times but I
don't think it's revelatory, or necessary in other ways. My big Etudes
discovery of the last couple of years has been Monique Haas on Erato,
where particularly the first book is astoundingly alert and
spontaneous-seeming, just an almost unheard-of degree of comfort with
these works. The earlier, DG recordings she made are no substitute.
(Alan posts about the Erato set elsewhere in this thread.)

> I've also been enjoying Francois-Joel Thiollier's rather
> dreamy, psychedelic Preludes on Naxos -- though the latter may just
> be my bad taste!

Will remember to look into it.

SE.

[graham]

"David O." <DavidC...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:ssdcf7hqb8h9c02a6...@4ax.com...

His etudes were highly praised but I've been enjoying those of Peter Frankl.
Graham

[td]

On Dec 24, 2:24 pm, Allan Evans <disz...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Walter Legge deserves credit for the change in Gieseking's recordings.
> His live performances are similar, before and after the War.

I haven't heard all of them, so I couldn't possibly comment.

TD

[td]

On Dec 24, 3:56 pm, "graham" <g.ste...@shaw.ca> wrote:
> "David O." <DavidCOber...@gmail.com> wrote in message

>
> news:ssdcf7hqb8h9c02a6...@4ax.com...> On 23 Dec 2011 15:25:11 GMT, Alan Cooper

> > <amcoo...@NOSPAMoptonline.net> wrote:
>
> >>I agree with both Steve and TD when it comes to Gieseking's '50s Debussy.
> >>I've
> >>never warmed to it either.
>
> > What do you think of Paul Jacobs's Debussy (the Preludes, Images, &c.)
> > on Nonesuch?
>
> His etudes were highly praised but I've been enjoying those of Peter Frankl.

Frankl is a marvelous musician, in my opinion.

TD

[Dufus]

>On Dec 24, 2:36 pm, David O. <DavidCOber...@gmail.com> wrote:
> What do you think of Paul Jacobs's Debussy (the Preludes, Images, &c.)
> on Nonesuch?

For several opinions on the Preludes, I'd suggest reading the customer
reviews at Amazon-US,with which I largely agree, my set being the
lp's, not cd's , of the Preludes only.

http://www.amazon.com/Debussy-Preludes-Piano-Books-II/dp/B000005IWU/ref=sr_1_9?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1324763187&sr=1-9

Dufus

[graham]

"td" <tomde...@mac.com> wrote in message
news:d0962fb7-985e-4f93...@u32g2000yqe.googlegroups.com...

------------------------------------------------
I agree! I managed to get both of his Debussy sets earlier this year. I'd
never really enjoyed the etudes until I heard his take on them.
Graham

[mandryka]

On Dec 24, 8:44 pm, Steve Emerson <eme...@n-n-nospamsonic.net> wrote:
> In article

> <11b1995d-20f1-48b2-97bb-24fe17754...@h11g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>,

>
>  mandryka <howie.st...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> > Here are some random thoughts.
>
> > If you like Michelangeli's Debussy Steve be sure to get the last
> > recital disc -- a Hamburg all D|ebussy concert. An audience recording,
> > with about the same level of sound quality as Daniel Cianni's Chopin
> > Nocturnes. The playing is wonderful -- Children's Corner and Images
> > especially.  The final recordings -- all except the concertos with
> > Garben -- show a new side  to the man -- more contemplative than
> > before.
>
> I'll check it out. I do have some late '80s ABM Debussy, I think, but
> not this. (For some reason, when I watched a full DVD of ABM playing
> Debussy, it seemed really ponderous and near-soporific.)

There's a DVD with a couple of preludes from Book 2 which is
particularly valuable because they are much much better than the DG
recording of Bk2.

I still think one of the Debussy concerts on Aura (I'll have to check
which one) is really special.

I went through a Monique Haas phase a couple of years ago but, for no
good reason, I haven't listened to her much since. Alert is the right
way to describe the Preludes. I'm not sure if I ever played the
Etudes. I'll try to find the set.and listen.

Have you (or anyone else) heard Izumi Tateno's preludes CD? I would
like to hear it but it seems impossible to find. If anyone sees it for
sale please let me know.

I thought Rahkonen's Etudes were more fun than most others -- more fun
than Jacobs' for example, and Perlemutter's. Noriko Ogawa's Etudes are
really poetic and tuneful, rather slow and contemplative.

Most of this stuff is easy to find on spotify,, which I recommend to
you without any reservations (at least if what you get in America is
similar to what I get in the UK)

Howard

[graham]

"mandryka" <howie...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:1e8da1c9-ffe2-4397...@p16g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...

----------------------------------------------
I highly recommend Frankl's traversal. Volume 1 is readily available but
you may have to find a re-seller for V2 (containing the etudes)although it
is listed at Crotchet.
Graham

[mandryka]

On Dec 24, 11:08 pm, "graham" <g.ste...@shaw.ca> wrote:
> "mandryka" <howie.st...@btinternet.com> wrote in message

I'll check it out -- all his etudes stream on spotify.

One recent discovery I made was a lovely short late piece called Les
soirs illuminés par l'ardeur du charbon. Hakon Austibo plays it, and
so does Noriko Ogawa. I think it was the last thing |Debussy wrote.

[Christopher Howell]

On 26 Dic, 10:19, mandryka <howie.st...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
> One recent discovery I made was a lovely short  late piece called Les
> soirs illuminés par l'ardeur du charbon.  Hakon Austibo plays it, and
> so does Noriko Ogawa.

And so does Bavouzet.

The Bavouzet and Ogawa cycles seem to me the finest of recent years,
maybe not just of recent years. I slightly incline to Ogawa because
Bavouzet separates the hands a lot which sometimes irritates me, but
if you like a bold approach he (but not excluding ravishing beauty in
some of the slow pieces) he may be the one for you.

Chris Howell

[mandryka]

I think the later Bavouzet records -- etudes for example -- are
extremely good performances. But somehow soulless, faceless. compared
with . . . Ogawa for one.

Has anyone been following his Haydn cycle? I'm wondering whether to
buy those CDs

[Gerard]

mandryka <howie...@btinternet.com> typed:

I seem to remember very enthusiastic posts about Bavout's Debussy when his
recordings were new (versus rather restrained opinions about Ogawa).
Have the opinions changed/switched (in such a short time)?

[mandryka]

On Dec 26, 4:38 pm, "Gerard" <ghe_nospam-ndrik...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> mandryka <howie.st...@btinternet.com> typed:

Just different tastes, surely.

[JohnGavin]

My reaction as well -- Bavouzet's cycle is very very good, but falls
short of greatness.

I suppose I"m imprinted on Anthony DiBonaventura's Etudes, originally
from a CS LP.
It may not appeal to all tastes, but it's a style of pianism that fits
the music beautifully.

[graham]

"mandryka" <howie...@btinternet.com> wrote in message

news:e2b9d144-6fc5-4aab...@u32g2000yqe.googlegroups.com...

--------------------------------------------------
Frankl's performances of the etudes are anything but soulless.
Graham

[JohnGavin]

Speaking of Debussy piano works, I've come across this only recently -
Van Cliburn's Reflections in the Water.
Although I think Michelangeli's is the greatest, Cliburn presents a
warmer, more romantic take - very well done.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHvKM_kKEnU

[td]

On Dec 26, 12:40 pm, JohnGavin <dagd...@comcast.net> wrote:

> Cliburn presents a warmer, more romantic take - very well done.

This comment could be a general comment about Van Cliburn.

TD

[Matthew B. Tepper]

Any opinions on Roy Howat?

--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
Read about "Proty" here: http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers

[Dufus]

On Dec 26, 11:40 am, JohnGavin <dagd...@comcast.net> wrote:
> Speaking of Debussy piano works, I've come across this only recently -
> Van Cliburn's Reflections in the Water.

From his "My Favorite Encores" recording; I have it's lp incarnation.
Reccomended. Wonderful playing , including of a Szymanowski Etude and
Rachmaninoff Etude.

http://www.amazon.com/My-Favorite-Encores-Frederic-Chopin/dp/B000003F3H/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1324923660&sr=1-1

Dufus

[mandryka]

It's on the Favourite Encores CD, which has quite a bit of Debussy.
It's a very good CD .

It includes the Szymanowski Etude Op 4/3 too - AFAIK his only
recording of it.

[mandryka]

On Dec 26, 6:26 pm, Dufus <steveha...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Dec 26, 11:40 am, JohnGavin <dagd...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > Speaking of Debussy piano works, I've come across this only recently -
> > Van Cliburn's Reflections in the Water.
>
> From his "My Favorite Encores" recording; I have it's lp incarnation.
> Reccomended. Wonderful playing , including of a Szymanowski Etude and
> Rachmaninoff Etude.
>

> http://www.amazon.com/My-Favorite-Encores-Frederic-Chopin/dp/B000003F...
>
> Dufus

Great minds think alike

[Dufus]

On Dec 26, 12:33 pm, mandryka <howie.st...@btinternet.com> wrote:

> Great minds think alike

Indeed, but your it's's were correct, my it's was not.But then I speak
American,English being my second language.

Dufus

[mandryka]

Yes, but is it "My Favourite Encores" or "My Favorite Encores"?

[td]

No doubt about it.

Favourite.

TD

[MiNe 109]

In article <Xns9FC76AE1BFA...@216.168.3.70>,

"Matthew B. Tepper" <oy兀earthlink.net> wrote:

> Any opinions on Roy Howat?

Transparent, well-balanced and considered. (I know: find a recording
that isn't!) Apollonian. He plays from his own up-to-date edition so
there may be some small differences in text.

Stephen

[Christopher Howell]

On 26 Dic, 17:38, "Gerard" <ghe_nospam-ndrik...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> mandryka <howie.st...@btinternet.com> typed:

> Have the opinions changed/switched (in such a short time)?- Nascondi testo citato
>
> - Mostra testo citato -

My opinions have always been as stated, but maybe this is the first
time I've stated them here.

Chris Howell

[Gerard]

Christopher Howell <ckho...@ckhowell.com> typed:

That is possible.
I was referring to the "general" opinion as far as I remembered it (which is an
enthusiastic consensus about Bavouzet's Debussy).

[pianomaven]

On Dec 26, 2:55 pm, MiNe 109 <smcelr...@POPaustin.rr.com> wrote:
> In article <Xns9FC76AE1BFA48quackandf...@216.168.3.70>,

>  "Matthew B. Tepper" <oyþ@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > Any opinions on Roy Howat?
>
> Transparent, well-balanced and considered. (I know: find a recording
> that isn't!) Apollonian. He plays from his own up-to-date edition so
> there may be some small differences in text.

I am curious, but reluctant to fork out a lot of money for someone I
have not heard.

TD

[pianomaven]

On Dec 23, 6:20 pm, Steve Emerson <eme...@n-n-nospamsonic.net> wrote:


> Gieseking's Debussy is some of the most overrated material in the
> catalog.

This smacks of Charles Rosen, who once described him as the stupidest
pianist he had ever met.

Gieseking is actually the most underrated overrated pianist. His
abilities were simply staggering and his musical affinities as broad
as any pianist of his generation. From Bach to Ravel, Debussy and
Hindemith. He played everything. And usually from memory.

TD

[Dufus]

On Dec 26, 4:14 pm, pianomaven <1pianoma...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Gieseking is actually the most underrated overrated pianist. His
> abilities were simply staggering and his musical affinities as broad
> as any pianist of his generation.

Arbiter Records has 2 cd's of his, most pre-War,live,unpublished,etc.
N.B.

[Steve Emerson]

In article
<e46761f0-f1a1-4bb4...@t8g2000yqg.googlegroups.com>,

pianomaven <1pian...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Dec 23, 6:20 pm, Steve Emerson <eme...@n-n-nospamsonic.net> wrote:
>
>
> > Gieseking's Debussy is some of the most overrated material in the
> > catalog.
>
> This smacks of Charles Rosen, who once described him as the stupidest
> pianist he had ever met.
>
> Gieseking is actually the most underrated overrated pianist.

Which leaves us -- where?

> His
> abilities were simply staggering and his musical affinities as broad
> as any pianist of his generation. From Bach to Ravel, Debussy and
> Hindemith. He played everything. And usually from memory.

He played everything, but he didn't play everything well. And he had the
strange trait of often playing with great refinement and discernment,
but from time to time, with an egregious crassness. (And of course, as
in a lot of his Debussy, sleepiness.)

Still, I don't think my few remarks line up with the view that he was
stupid; since they included this:

In article <emersn-D5D754....@nnrp-virt.nntp.sonic.net>,
Steve Emerson <eme...@n-n-nospamsonic.net> wrote:

> Terrific musician in lots of repertoire though he be.

SE.

[mandryka]

On Dec 27, 2:25 am, Steve Emerson <eme...@n-n-nospamsonic.net> wrote:
> In article

> <e46761f0-f1a1-4bb4-9907-92b6c1248...@t8g2000yqg.googlegroups.com>,

>
>  pianomaven <1pianoma...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Dec 23, 6:20 pm, Steve Emerson <eme...@n-n-nospamsonic.net> wrote:
>
> > > Gieseking's Debussy is some of the most overrated material in the
> > > catalog.
>
> > This smacks of Charles Rosen, who once described him as the stupidest
> > pianist he had ever met.
>
> > Gieseking is actually the most underrated overrated pianist.
>
> Which leaves us -- where?
>
> > His
> > abilities were simply staggering and his musical affinities as broad
> > as any pianist of his generation. From Bach to Ravel, Debussy and
> > Hindemith. He played everything. And usually from memory.
>
> He played everything, but he didn't play everything well. And he had the
> strange trait of often playing with great refinement and discernment,
> but from time to time, with an egregious crassness. (And of course, as
> in a lot of his Debussy, sleepiness.)
>
> Still, I don't think my few remarks line up with the view that he was
> stupid; since they included this:
>

> In article <emersn-D5D754.15200623122...@nnrp-virt.nntp.sonic.net>,

>  Steve Emerson <eme...@n-n-nospamsonic.net> wrote:
>
> > Terrific musician in lots of repertoire though he be.
>
> SE.

I don't hear sleepiness in the pre war preludes, so that can't have
been what you meant.

[td]

On Dec 26, 9:25 pm, Steve Emerson <eme...@n-n-nospamsonic.net> wrote:
> In article
> <e46761f0-f1a1-4bb4-9907-92b6c1248...@t8g2000yqg.googlegroups.com>,
>

>  pianomaven <1pianoma...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Dec 23, 6:20 pm, Steve Emerson <eme...@n-n-nospamsonic.net> wrote:
>
> > > Gieseking's Debussy is some of the most overrated material in the
> > > catalog.
>
> > This smacks of Charles Rosen, who once described him as the stupidest
> > pianist he had ever met.
>
> > Gieseking is actually the most underrated overrated pianist.
>
> Which leaves us -- where?

I never intended to take you anywhere, Steve.

> > His
> > abilities were simply staggering and his musical affinities as broad
> > as any pianist of his generation. From Bach to Ravel, Debussy and
> > Hindemith. He played everything. And usually from memory.
>
> He played everything, but he didn't play everything well.

Nobody does, of course. The achievement is in the breadth of his
knowledge of the repertoire.

And he had the
> strange trait of often playing with great refinement and discernment,
> but from time to time, with an egregious crassness.

You'll have to give me examples of that. Can you think of some?
Casualness would be my term, not crass, but perhaps I am being
particular. I would suggest the WTC recorded "live" in that radio
studio in Germany as my example.

(And of course, as
> in a lot of his Debussy, sleepiness.)

Sleepiness? You dislike all that beautiful atmosphere he instills in
this music? Sounds as though you've been listening to those
literalists like Pierre Boulez and Charles Rosen. A pox on them all.
They remove everything that Debussy so carefully put into his music.
Strip it bare. An example of musical stupidity of the highest order.

TD

[td]

The problem is that there are no examples in SE's comments, so they
lose their validity.

TD

[Dufus]

On Dec 27, 5:49 am, td <tomdedea...@mac.com> wrote:

> The problem is that there are no examples in SE's comments, so they
> lose their validity.
>

A 1945 broadcast Schubert A major Sonata, D.664 may be a controversial
(?) especially the Andante:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gy_HnCcpwGE

Live, near the end, April, 1956, Mendelssohn Op.14 Andante and Rondo
capriccioso, to contrast to pre-War playing :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7f424hUdto

[herman]

> On Dec 23, 6:20 pm, Steve Emerson <eme...@n-n-nospamsonic.net> wrote:
>
> > Gieseking's Debussy is some of the most overrated material in the
> > catalog.
>

well, how about Lipatti?

[wkasimer]

...or Solomon....

Bill

[JohnGavin]

or Charles Rosen

[td]

Well, exactly.

Even his Debussy Etudes have been completely outclassed by others over
the years. And the legend about their being the "first" recording has
now been proven untrue as well.

Uchida, Boffard, Cassard, Ferber, Bonaventura, Bavouzet, et al. have
displaced the two Rosen recordings.

TD

[bassppn]

On Dec 27, 10:21 am, JohnGavin <dagd...@comcast.net> wrote:

good point!
AB

[bassppn]

maybe there is a sample on youtube

AB

[bassppn]

> TD- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

never heard a Rosen recording that had any beuuty of sound........
AB

[bassppn]

heard him in Stuttgart in 1956. At times very messy but his tone and
TOUCH was special. But many of his recordings, (including his pre-
war ) were sloppy and his post-war Beethoven sonatas sound lke he was
sight reading. Rosen's comment smacks of stupidity and perhaps
jealousy as well.
His Debussy recordings both pre and post war are unqiue. A giant
talent.
AB

[Steve Emerson]

In article
<67babcff-885d-408c...@a17g2000yqj.googlegroups.com>,

td <tomde...@mac.com> wrote:

> On Dec 26, 9:25 pm, Steve Emerson <eme...@n-n-nospamsonic.net> wrote:
> > In article
> > <e46761f0-f1a1-4bb4-9907-92b6c1248...@t8g2000yqg.googlegroups.com>,
> >
> >  pianomaven <1pianoma...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Dec 23, 6:20 pm, Steve Emerson <eme...@n-n-nospamsonic.net> wrote:
> >
> > > > Gieseking's Debussy is some of the most overrated material in the
> > > > catalog.
> >
> > > This smacks of Charles Rosen, who once described him as the stupidest
> > > pianist he had ever met.
> >
> > > Gieseking is actually the most underrated overrated pianist.
> >
> > Which leaves us -- where?
>
> I never intended to take you anywhere, Steve.

Presumably you meant to say something though?

> > > His
> > > abilities were simply staggering and his musical affinities as broad
> > > as any pianist of his generation. From Bach to Ravel, Debussy and
> > > Hindemith. He played everything. And usually from memory.
> >
> > He played everything, but he didn't play everything well.
>
> Nobody does, of course. The achievement is in the breadth of his
> knowledge of the repertoire.
>
> And he had the
> > strange trait of often playing with great refinement and discernment,
> > but from time to time, with an egregious crassness.
>
> You'll have to give me examples of that. Can you think of some?

It certainly crops up in his Schumann. Also in his Waldstein, where
there are passages that come across along these lines: Is it possible to
play this fast music so fast that it loses all meaning? Yes it is, and I
will demonstrate how.

> Casualness would be my term, not crass, but perhaps I am being
> particular. I would suggest the WTC recorded "live" in that radio
> studio in Germany as my example.

Yeah, the casual is a different phenomenon.

> (And of course, as
> > in a lot of his Debussy, sleepiness.)
>
> Sleepiness? You dislike all that beautiful atmosphere he instills in
> this music? Sounds as though you've been listening to those
> literalists like Pierre Boulez and Charles Rosen. A pox on them all.

I supplied a list of numerous pianists along with my initial comment, so
there's no need for guesswork. If you think ABM and Jacobs and Meyer and
Cortot, Ciani and Kocsis etc. are literalists, fine.

And no, I don't think Gieseking is the last word in "beautiful
atmosphere," not for a minute. The pre-war Preludes (and Images) are
certainly not always sleepy, but often enough they are. And the best
moments, e.g. 'Minstrels', are not always owed to "atmosphere."

For "literal," Gieseking's own "La Plus Que Lent," from 1927, comes
close enough. Compare his treatment of this endlessly charming
Fauré-like waltz with Monique Haas's for a demonstration of what's
missing.

The Gieseking Etudes, which I guess are from around 1951, are just
tossed off. Maybe in part because the works have so little to do with
"atmosphere."

SE.

[JohnGavin]

On Dec 27, 11:22 pm, Steve Emerson <eme...@n-n-nospamsonic.net> wrote:
> In article

> <67babcff-885d-408c-996d-e8610ab45...@a17g2000yqj.googlegroups.com>,

>

>
> The Gieseking Etudes, which I guess are from around 1951, are just
> tossed off. Maybe in part because the works have so little to do with
> "atmosphere."
>
> SE.

I think the Gieseking mystique had more to it than just atmospherics.
Rach was impressed with Gieseking's performance of the 3rd PC.
Phenomenal sight readers like Gieseking and Ogden were either on or
off - in the case of the Debussy Etudes it sounds like he was off.
He was also off for his recording of Bach's WTC. The weakness of that
type of genius is that they have little patience for polishing and
crystallizing their ideas - they fly on the wings of momentary
inspiration (if you know what I mean).
Sometimes they fly and sometimes they don't.

[td]

Correct.

And it must be said that ABM et al (SE's list of approved pianists in
Debussy) never had those wings of momentary inspiration, or certainly
not to the degree WG did.

TD

[JohnGavin]

In Michelangeli's case the inspiration came as an ideal interpretation
in his imagination, probably as a result of hours of contemplation.
His work was to perfectly realize that ideal in execution (which, I
believe, he did to a stunning degree).

Both approaches are valid IMHO.

[td]

The one was creating an experience for the listener, the other
chiseling music in marble for the listener to observe and possibly
worship.

The two approaches may be valid, but there is no question in my mind
which one I favour.

TD

[JohnGavin]

The performer himself is placing the music at an objective distance -
even to himself.
But this fits Debussy perfectly. Think of a Monet painting - there is
an undeniable element of detachment in impressionist art and music.

Frankly ABM's approach works for me in just about everything he
performed. Why I love it so much is a mystery, but I do.

[Dufus]

On Dec 28, 10:38 am, JohnGavin <dagd...@comcast.net> wrote:

> The performer himself is placing the music at an objective distance -
> even to himself.
> But this fits Debussy perfectly.  Think of a Monet painting - there is
> an undeniable element of detachment in impressionist art and music.

Well said.

Debussy's hair is a bit down perhaps in " L'Isle Joyeuse" ?

[Steve Emerson]

In article
<33ddca02-43c1-42cb...@l19g2000yqc.googlegroups.com>,

Dunno about winged inspiration, but one of the great astonishments of
the Daniel Ericourt set is the sense of spontaneity, great comfort with
the music emerging from obvious intimacy with it. So, if I understand
the point of the above, I disagree here too.

Monique Haas's Erato Etudes are also striking precisely on account of
their feeling of spontaneity. And Marcelle Meyer, in Debussy as
everywhere, is terrific in her singular ease and lightness, always in
flux and headed forward, the opposite of labored. Images are especially
to be commended.

SE.

[td]

If you go to Monet's home, see the world he created around him, you
feel the love for his environment that you see in the painting. The
detachment is entirely deniable, I think.

TD

[td]

And I find most of his playing entirely soulless and rebarbative,
despite my acknowledgement of his greatness as a keyboard executant.
Musicians like him should really have gone into another line of work,
in my opinion. He would have made an excellent mortician, for example.
Or an even finer piano tuner/technician. Or he might have gone into
diamond cutting.

More ominously, of course, is the model he posed for younger musicians
who actually thought his was the right path. Something akin to
Horowitz and his damnable example, turning an entire generation of
American pianists into little pseudo-Horowitzes of a much lesser sort.
GG had the same influence. Nefarious, in fact, on Bach playing for
most of an entire generation of pianists.

Schnabel, Fischer, Kempff, Cortot, Rubinstein, these were the sane and
good models of musician/pianists, in my opinion. Nothing bad or
invidious ever came from any of their students or disciples.

TD

[Dufus]

>On Dec 22, 5:04 am, td <tomdedea...@mac.com> wrote:

8 pianists play Debussy's Etude "Pour les huits doigts " :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6DHHBfOTv4


1. Anatoly Vedernikov
2. Livia Rév
3. Daniel Ericourt
4. Jacques Février
5. Monique Haas
6. Albert Ferber
7. Hans Henkemans
8. Vladimir Horowitz

Much Ferber Debussy and Faure, and others including Rachmaninoff, is
at YT, FYI.

Dufus

[JohnGavin]

Right, sure. And what fool decided to devote 2 volumes of ABM to the
Phillips GPOC set?

Seriously Tom - the only truth to be derived from the above is that
ABM is not your cup of tea. That's fine of course, but the rest is
silliness - satire.
Perhaps you intended it as such?

> More ominously, of course, is the model he posed for younger musicians
> who actually thought his was the right path.

Right path? Is music a religion?
ABM was so wrong path that Argerich, Pollini, Demus, Moravec, and many
other notables came to study with him.
But I'll take your judgement over theirs................(not).

Something akin to
> Horowitz and his damnable example, turning an entire generation of
> American pianists into little pseudo-Horowitzes of a much lesser sort.
> GG had the same influence. Nefarious, in fact, on Bach playing for
> most of an entire generation of pianists.
>
> Schnabel, Fischer, Kempff, Cortot, Rubinstein, these were the sane and
> good models of musician/pianists, in my opinion. Nothing bad or
> invidious ever came from any of their students or disciples.
>

Were Gary Graffman and Byron Janis (Horowitz students) so "invidious"?
Really Tom, what are you talking about?

[td]

Interestingly enough, neither one is capable of playing today. Janis'
problems stem from arthitis, of course, but add all the other names to
the list. Do I need to name them? Or can you come up with them on all
by yourself? The list is alarmingly long.

It is, indeed, an enormous loss to music in America that an entire
generation of American-born pianists has been lost to one physical
ailment or another. Or to psychological exhaustion. The young
generation will, I hope stay the course, but there is no guarantee, I
would suggest.

An immediate comparison with Europe, for example, reveals the
contemporaries of these worn-out American musicians still treading the
boards, still performing. They did not have the example of Horowitz to
prod them into unreasonable practise or unsuitable music (Perahia was
an obvious victim of Horowitz's ridiculous encouragement of Perahia
that he play Rachmaninoff and Liszt and the Brahms Pico 2

TD

[Eric Grunin]

On Dec 22, 10:35 am, "Matthew B. Tepper" <oyþ@earthlink.net> wrote:

> >>On Dec 22, 5:21 am, td <tomdedea...@mac.com> wrote:
> >>is. Sometimes very hard to rid oneself of bad facts.
>
> Like supposing that an obscure, seriously ill pianist could suddenly bring
> forth an outpouring of recordings of whole swaths of piano repertoire.
>

John Cage tells this story in SILENCE. I don't have my copy at hand,
so here's a (less-elegant) version I found online:

Two Buddhist monks were walking along a path when they came to a
shallow, muddy river. A woman in a beautiful dress waited there, not
wishing to cross for fear of ruining her beautiful dress. One of the
monks lifted her onto his shoulders – something that he was absolutely
not supposed to do – and carried her to the other side, where he set
her down (dress intact) and proceeded along the path with his fellow
monk. After a few hours, the second monk, unable to continue keeping
quiet about what he understood as a violation of the code by which
they lived, asked his companion, “Why did you pick that woman up and
carry her across the river?” The first monk replied, “Are you still
carrying her? I put her down hours ago.”

[td]

On Dec 29, 10:13 am, George <gperkins...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Very good point, Tom. I absolutely agree. Though I must say, I find
> that the "Michelangeli Way" usually works for me when he's playing,
> while the performances of his successors (Pollini, etc) rarely seem to
> speak to me. I am not sure why.

Pollini was a student of ABM, not a carbon copy by any means. He was
already a great pianist and musician before he ever went to "study"
with Michelangeli.

For insight into ABM's methods, check out the various comments by MA
on the subject. I have also heard similar stories from many other
pianists who went through the Michelangeli school.

Still, I feel that he was a bad example. Ditto Horowitz. Both had
unique qualities which were impossible to be found in other pianists.

TD

[Matthew B. Tepper]

Eric Grunin <eric....@gmail.com> appears to have caused the following
letters to be typed in news:47666522-5b05-42d6-8a9d-9de88a575344
@t30g2000vbx.googlegroups.com:

A complaint about supposed "obsession" from somebody who owns, let's see,
just HOW many recordings of the "Eroica"? I only have 50 Berlioz Requiems.

The monk's infraction was a "victimless crime," at best.

TD is serving a sort of a "sentence" for an offense, in which innocent
people were deceived and defrauded. That's entirely different. He did not
do the deception and the defrauding himself, but he has never come clean.

TD hurls insults and tells utterly false stories about people in this
newsgroup. These have no basis in reality. Publicizing the Hatto fakery,
on the other hand, is something TD actually, factually, observably did.

So long as TD continues his slanders, the Hatto story will remain active.
The only person who can stop them is TD himself, by modifying his behavior.
So if you don't like being reminded of Hatto, take it up with TD yourself.

Shortly after John Cage died, I saw one of his old friends, Frederik Pohl.
Fred described Cage to me as the "best damn poker player I ever knew."
Make of that what you will.

--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
Read about "Proty" here: http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers

[JohnGavin]

I remember Argerich's exact comment "He told me that he was teaching
me through silence".
That doesn't sound wrong to me at all, just a bit too subtle for
Argerich's temperament. The problem was that Argerich was a mis-
matched student for ABM.
Moravec was a better match, and he speaks of his teacher with
reverence. Pollini said that ABM represents the "height of 20th
century pianism".
Demus is a highly respected musician - he chose to study with ABM.

[Gerard]

Matthew B. Tepper <oyþ@earthlink.net> typed:

>
> tells utterly false stories about people in this
> newsgroup. These have no basis in reality.

The same applies to your notorious lies in this newsgroup.

[JohnGavin]

On Dec 28, 7:51 pm, td <tomdedea...@mac.com> wrote:
> On Dec 28, 6:55 pm, JohnGavin <dagd...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> >  Something akin to> Horowitz and his damnable example, turning an entire generation of
> > > American pianists into little pseudo-Horowitzes of a much lesser sort.

That is a gross and rather flakey exaggeration (although I an not a
great fan of Horowitz). Only a tiny fraction of notable American
pianist went to Horowitz.
More came from the studios of Lhevinne, Adele Marcus, Vengerova and
others.

> > > GG had the same influence. Nefarious, in fact, on Bach playing for
> > > most of an entire generation of pianists.

I don't agree that Gould's influence was negative, and either do most
professionals.
>
> > > Schnabel, Fischer, Kempff, Cortot

Would that be the same Cortot who was on the jury of the 1939 Geneva
Competition and declared Michelangeli "the new Liszt"?? The Cortot
who later befriended ABM and visited him regularly?

, Rubinstein, these were the sane and
> > > good models of musician/pianists, in my opinion. Nothing bad or
> > > invidious ever came from any of their students or disciples.

Did ABM's or Horowitz's students go out and murder people? What the
heck are you talking about?

>
> > Were Gary Graffman and Byron Janis (Horowitz students) so "invidious"?
> > Really Tom, what are you talking about?
>
> Interestingly enough, neither one is capable of playing today. Janis'
> problems stem from arthitis, of course, but add all the other names to
> the list. Do I need to name them? Or can you come up with them on all
> by yourself? The list is alarmingly long.

Maybe most of them didn't "make it" because they weren't talented
enough.

>
> It is, indeed, an enormous loss to music in America that an entire
> generation of American-born pianists has been lost to one physical
> ailment or another. Or to psychological exhaustion. The young
> generation will, I hope stay the course, but there is no guarantee, I
> would suggest.
>
> An immediate comparison with Europe, for example, reveals the
> contemporaries of these worn-out American musicians still treading the
> boards, still performing. They did not have the example of Horowitz to
> prod them into unreasonable practise or unsuitable music (Perahia was
> an obvious victim of Horowitz's ridiculous encouragement of Perahia
> that he play Rachmaninoff and Liszt and the Brahms Pico 2

Perahia is a victim of his own prettification and manicuring of the
repertoire he plays.

This much I will concede. Rosina Lhevinne once said that Rubenstein
was a musician and Horowitz was a magician.
I have never believed that a little bit of magic is detrimental to
music, and I don't bow to those "pure musician" types over the other.
If there is magic in Michelangeli's art, I'm sure it has helped to
make him the legend that he is.

For me there are many approaches to the piano, to musical
interpretation - and thank goodness there is diversity in
interpretation - otherwise classical music would be doomed.
>
> TD

[td]

On Dec 29, 10:33 am, "Matthew B. Tepper" <oyþ@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Eric Grunin <eric.gru...@gmail.com> appears to have caused the following

Hmmmm.

Including TD, who recently removed all the CDs from the Hatto CDs he
purchased at considerable expense in order to re=use the CD cases,
which, in fact, were of decent quality.

> That's entirely different.

Different from what, Tepper?

> He did not do the deception and the defrauding himself,

Hey. You got that one right.

> but he has never come clean.

About what, toad?

>
> TD hurls insults and tells utterly false stories about people in this
> newsgroup.  These have no basis in reality.  Publicizing the Hatto fakery,
> on the other hand, is something TD actually, factually, observably did.

Baldersash!

Hogwash.

Utter fiction.

> So long as TD continues his slanders, the Hatto story will remain active.

Whatever amuses you.

The only person here who continues false stories and slander and
endless whining about the industry who wouldn't give him a cushy job
is Tepper himself.

Lord Tepper.

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

The toad of toads.

TD

[td]

You know public figures, some of whom have expressed appreciation for
ABM as a teacher.

I actually know many pianists who are NOT public figures who studied
with ABM. They reiterate MA's comments. Actual lessons were rare, in
fact. The students felt left on their own most of the time.

TD

[td]

Correct.

Over and over and over and over and over again.

In the UK his lies would land him in legal difficulties his limited
imagination could never even begin to fathom. He would be stripped of
his entire worldly possessions in a flash. And perhaps turn up at the
foot of an off-ramp on the Hollywood Freeway with a sign:

"Poor pathetic toad, no money, no food, no friends."

TD

[td]

On Dec 29, 2:18 pm, JohnGavin <dagd...@comcast.net> wrote:
> On Dec 28, 7:51 pm, td <tomdedea...@mac.com> wrote:
>
> > On Dec 28, 6:55 pm, JohnGavin <dagd...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > >  Something akin to> Horowitz and his damnable example, turning an entire generation of
> > > > American pianists into little pseudo-Horowitzes of a much lesser sort.
>
> That is a gross and rather flakey exaggeration (although I an not a
> great fan of Horowitz).  Only a tiny fraction of notable American
> pianist went to Horowitz.
> More came from the studios of Lhevinne, Adele Marcus, Vengerova and
> others.

And they all, to a man, worshipped at the feet of the magician, John.

The exception was Leon Fleisher.

> > > > GG had the same influence. Nefarious, in fact, on Bach playing for
> > > > most of an entire generation of pianists.
>
> I don't agree that Gould's influence was negative, and either do most
> professionals.

They are entitled to their opinion. I hold to mine.

> > > > Schnabel, Fischer, Kempff, Cortot
>
> Would that be the same Cortot who was on the jury of the 1939 Geneva
> Competition and declared Michelangeli "the new Liszt"??  The Cortot
> who later befriended ABM and visited him regularly?

Cortot was also an intractible aristocrat. And a Nazi sympathizer.
Shall we investigate all of his little peccadilloes.

> , Rubinstein, these were the sane and
>
> > > > good models of musician/pianists, in my opinion. Nothing bad or
> > > > invidious ever came from any of their students or disciples.
>
> Did ABM's or Horowitz's students go out and murder people?  What the
> heck are you talking about?

The all ended up in the trashbin of musical history.

> > > Were Gary Graffman and Byron Janis (Horowitz students) so "invidious"?
> > > Really Tom, what are you talking about?

Graffman lost the use of his right hand. Janis developed arthritis. In
fact, although Janis was a Horowitz pupil, he was a far superior
musician to his teacher and learned most of what he knew from Adele
Marcus, a pupil, as she was fond of saying, of JOSEF Lhevinne, not of
his wife.

> > Interestingly enough, neither one is capable of playing today. Janis'
> > problems stem from arthitis, of course, but add all the other names to
> > the list. Do I need to name them? Or can you come up with them on all
> > by yourself? The list is alarmingly long.
>
> Maybe most of them didn't "make it" because they weren't talented
> enough.

Not my opinion.

> > It is, indeed, an enormous loss to music in America that an entire
> > generation of American-born pianists has been lost to one physical
> > ailment or another. Or to psychological exhaustion. The young
> > generation will, I hope stay the course, but there is no guarantee, I
> > would suggest.
>
> > An immediate comparison with Europe, for example, reveals the
> > contemporaries of these worn-out American musicians still treading the
> > boards, still performing. They did not have the example of Horowitz to
> > prod them into unreasonable practise or unsuitable music (Perahia was
> > an obvious victim of Horowitz's ridiculous encouragement of Perahia
> > that he play Rachmaninoff and Liszt and the Brahms Pico 2
>
> Perahia is a victim of his own prettification and manicuring of the
> repertoire he plays.

Wrong.

His physical problems started when he started to associate with VH and
was told "You should play Liszt. You COULD, you know."

He did. And then his problems started.

> This much I will concede.  Rosina Lhevinne once said that Rubenstein
> was a musician and Horowitz was a magician.
> I have never believed that a little bit of magic is detrimental to
> music, and I don't bow to those "pure musician" types over the other.
> If there is magic in Michelangeli's art, I'm sure it has helped to
> make him the legend that he is.
>
> For me there are many approaches to the piano, to musical
> interpretation - and thank goodness there is diversity in
> interpretation - otherwise classical music would be doomed.

A nice motherhood statement, John, with which nobody can disagree.

TD