Modern classical music that won't hurt your ears
rmc
Pawlly Phonic
> Amazon.com Listmania:http://tr.im/ModernEars
Great. If you want a list of retro-romantic bilge by audience-whores
this is it.
(Exceptions: a few of the composers wrote a few promising works in
their youth before they "went pop", as Xenakis once put it. And
composers born early in the previous century like Holmboe can hardly
be expected to be "contemporary".)
Paula
Arnold@large.com Uncle Arnold
> On Nov 21, 9:48 am, rmc <remai...@reece.net.au> wrote:
>> Amazon.com Listmania:http://tr.im/ModernEars
>
> Great. If you want a list of retro-romantic bilge by audience-whores
> this is it.
Oh no! Composers who think it's good to be listened to! *The horror*...!
> (Exceptions: a few of the composers wrote a few promising works in
> their youth before they "went pop", as Xenakis once put it. And
> composers born early in the previous century like Holmboe can hardly
> be expected to be "contemporary".)
Was Xenakis actually musical? Someone who actually thought in and in terms
of music...? Or did he merely translate extra-musical organisation into
musical notation...? Do tell...!
A.
Pawlly Phonic
Don't worry about it. It's not for you. There is plenty of music
that's been dumbed down for you. I believe Rautavaara actually ran a
clinic where young composers could undergo musical lobotomies and
kitsch injections in order to jet-set around with Hollywood stars like
Salonen. Try Classics Lite. Or the above list if you want to pretend
you're "with it".
Paula
Taree Dawg
>
> Don't worry about it. It's not for you. There is plenty of music
> that's been dumbed down for you. I believe Rautavaara actually ran a
> clinic where young composers could undergo musical lobotomies and
> kitsch injections in order to jet-set around with Hollywood stars like
> Salonen. Try Classics Lite. Or the above list if you want to pretend
> you're "with it".
>
> Paula
There are some of us who are not into 'pretending'. Many are, but who
cares?
Ray Hall, Taree
david...@aol.com
> Composers who think it's good to be listened to! *The horror*...!
All composers think it's good to be listened to.
-david gable
Bob Lombard
Yes. Some of them even even wish their music to be felt.
bl
Pawlly Phonic
Paula
Pawlly Phonic
for money are audience-whores. If someone wants to pay for that,
fine. Just don't expect a kiss. The word is "kitsch".
Paula
Bob Lombard
I am aware of the concept. It was applied to the music of Rachmaninoff
during most of the 1st half of the 20th Century, along with every
other (classical) composer 1920-1950 who didn't 'do' 12 tone serial
music. If the word wasn't 'kitsch' for Bart�k or Schnabel, or some
other non-followers of the principles of the 2nd Viennese School, it
was some other rejection based on their noncompliance with serialism,
so that every composition appeared to be a special case solution to a
musical 'problem', and therefor not amenable to incorporation in a
scholastic program. I can't speak to the avant garde in later decades,
because DG has not adequately explained the rules to me.
Music that doesn't evoke any durable emotional response is not really
music; it may be an intellectual exercise using sounds, but that's
another thing.
bl
Samuel Vriezen
I love listening to his music. It's beautiful and powerful and extremely moving.
--
samuel
http://www.xs4all.nl/~sqv/ - homepage, soundclips
http://blogger.xs4all.nl/sqv - weblog in Dutch
Nobody out there but us. And I can never figure out who that was or will be,
much less is.
- Charles Bernstein
Pawlly Phonic
> Uncle Arnold wrote:
> > Was Xenakis actually musical? Someone who actually thought in and in terms
> > of music...? Or did he merely translate extra-musical organisation into
> > musical notation...? Do tell...!
>
> > A.
>
> I love listening to his music. It's beautiful and powerful and extremely moving.
>
Yes. The perfection of his constructions makes his innovations
completely convincing. I was never really able to appreciate
microtonalism, for example, until I heard his use of it in the akea
quintet and Ata, which came out in the '80s. Now I "get" it in works
where it's more difficult to catch, like Nono's Prometeo.
BTW there is a wonderful over an hour long interview in English of
Xenakis on the DVD with La legénde d'Eer where much wisdom is
cheerfully dispensed.
http://www.amazon.com/Xenakis-Electronic-Music-Vol-Legende/dp/B0007RFGU0/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1259010154&sr=1-1
though I believe you can rent that DVD from Netflix if you don't want
to buy it. There is an edited version with music behind it on YouTube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfwam-jqMn4
And BTW, Arnold, you got it back-asswards. He invented his own
notation for his very musical "organization".
Paula
Philip Peters
> Uncle Arnold wrote:
>
>> Pawlly Phonic wrote:
>>
>>> On Nov 21, 9:48 am, rmc <remai...@reece.net.au> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Amazon.com Listmania:http://tr.im/ModernEars
>>>
>>> Great. If you want a list of retro-romantic bilge by audience-whores
>>> this is it.
>>
>>
>> Oh no! Composers who think it's good to be listened to! *The horror*...!
>>
>>
>>> (Exceptions: a few of the composers wrote a few promising works in
>>> their youth before they "went pop", as Xenakis once put it. And
>>> composers born early in the previous century like Holmboe can hardly
>>> be expected to be "contemporary".)
>>
>>
>> Was Xenakis actually musical? Someone who actually thought in and in
>> terms of music...? Or did he merely translate extra-musical
>> organisation into musical notation...? Do tell...!
>>
>> A.
>
>
>
> I love listening to his music. It's beautiful and powerful and extremely
> moving.
I couldn't agree more.
Philip
Christopher Culver
> Amazon.com Listmania: http://tr.im/ModernEars
This is the work of Ryan Morris, who has enlightened us in Amazon
reviews with such comments that Boulez is the chief of the "minimalist
composers", and for whole decades there was no music played that was
no twelve-tone, composers of tonal music being completely dismissed
from the music world.
Matthew�B.�Tepper
the following letters to be typed in
news:87ocmsu...@christopherculver.com:
See what happens without peer review?
Actually, change the next-to-last word in your paragraph to "academic," and
it's more than a bit closer to the truth.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
Read about "Proty" here: http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers
Allen
> Christopher Culver <crcu...@christopherculver.com> appears to have caused
> the following letters to be typed in
> news:87ocmsu...@christopherculver.com:
>
>> rmc <rema...@reece.net.au> writes:
>>> Amazon.com Listmania: http://tr.im/ModernEars
>> This is the work of Ryan Morris, who has enlightened us in Amazon reviews
>> with such comments that Boulez is the chief of the "minimalist composers",
>> and for whole decades there was no music played that was no twelve-tone,
>> composers of tonal music being completely dismissed from the music world.
>
> See what happens without peer review?
>
> Actually, change the next-to-last word in your paragraph to "academic," and
> it's more than a bit closer to the truth.
>
Allen
Jack Campin - bogus address
>> with such comments that Boulez is the chief of the "minimalist composers",
>> and for whole decades there was no music played that was no twelve-tone,
>> composers of tonal music being completely dismissed from the music world.
> See what happens without peer review?
> Actually, change the next-to-last word in your paragraph to "academic,"
> and it's more than a bit closer to the truth.
Lessee. Scotland can't be that unrepresentative of the general situation.
http://www.music.ed.ac.uk/about/history.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gardiner_Professor_of_Music,_Glasgow
Out of that lot, only Robin Orr (Glasgow 1956-66) was a composer of
atonal music. (The other Scottish universities don't have webpages
I can find that describe their music departments at all; I know that
Aberdeen at least has one).
The original poster was talking bollocks and so are you.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
e m a i l : j a c k @ c a m p i n . m e . u k
Jack Campin, 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU, Scotland
mobile 07800 739 557 <http://www.campin.me.uk> Twitter: JackCampin
Matthew�B.�Tepper
caused the following letters to be typed in
>>> This is the work of Ryan Morris, who has enlightened us in Amazon
>>> reviews with such comments that Boulez is the chief of the "minimalist
>>> composers", and for whole decades there was no music played that was
>>> no twelve-tone, composers of tonal music being completely dismissed
>>> from the music world.
>> See what happens without peer review?
>> Actually, change the next-to-last word in your paragraph to "academic,"
>> and it's more than a bit closer to the truth.
>
> Lessee. Scotland can't be that unrepresentative of the general
> situation.
>
> http://www.music.ed.ac.uk/about/history.html
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gardiner_Professor_of_Music,_Glasgow
>
> Out of that lot, only Robin Orr (Glasgow 1956-66) was a composer of
> atonal music. (The other Scottish universities don't have webpages
> I can find that describe their music departments at all; I know that
> Aberdeen at least has one).
>
> The original poster was talking bollocks and so are you.
I have a book to recommend to you. It was written by Dale Carnegie:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0091906814
If you meant to say, "Not in the UK," then I will grant that, as the only
academe with which I am intimately aware is that in the USA.
Meanwhile, read the book. I am sure you will find it helpful.
Bob Lombard
>>> This is the work of Ryan Morris, who has enlightened us in Amazon reviews
>>> with such comments that Boulez is the chief of the "minimalist composers",
>>> and for whole decades there was no music played that was no twelve-tone,
>>> composers of tonal music being completely dismissed from the music world.
>> See what happens without peer review?
>> Actually, change the next-to-last word in your paragraph to "academic,"
>> and it's more than a bit closer to the truth.
>
> Lessee. Scotland can't be that unrepresentative of the general situation.
>
> http://www.music.ed.ac.uk/about/history.html
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gardiner_Professor_of_Music,_Glasgow
>
> Out of that lot, only Robin Orr (Glasgow 1956-66) was a composer of
> atonal music. (The other Scottish universities don't have webpages
> I can find that describe their music departments at all; I know that
> Aberdeen at least has one).
>
> The original poster was talking bollocks and so are you.
>
The significant period is 1920-1950. True during that period for most
of the Western world. Scotland being a cultural backwater, who knows?
bl
Jack Campin - bogus address
>>>> composers of tonal music being completely dismissed from the music
>>>> world.
>>> and it's more than a bit closer to the truth.
>> The original poster was talking bollocks and so are you.
> I have a book to recommend to you. It was written by Dale Carnegie:
>
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0091906814
Trying to be patronizing doesn't mean you weren't talking bollocks.
> If you meant to say, "Not in the UK," then I will grant that, as the
> only academe with which I am intimately aware is that in the USA.
If were that intimately familiar with it you'd know how many copies
of Walter Piston's textbooks sold to American college students. If
tonality was banned how come just about every college in the country
had its students reading "Harmony"? (On looking at the Wikipedia
page I see it was even reprinted specially for the US Armed Forces
during WW2).
HvT
> Jack Campin - bogus address <bo...@purr.demon.co.uk> appears to have
>> Out of that lot, only Robin Orr (Glasgow 1956-66) was a composer of
>> atonal music. (The other Scottish universities don't have webpages
>> I can find that describe their music departments at all; I know that
>> Aberdeen at least has one).
>>
>> The original poster was talking bollocks and so are you.
>
> I have a book to recommend to you. It was written by Dale Carnegie:
>
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0091906814
>
> If you meant to say, "Not in the UK," then I will grant that, as the
> only academe with which I am intimately aware is that in the USA.
Hmmm. What is true for Scotland must be true for the rest of the world
(if there is a world beyond Hadrian's wall)!
Henk
Jack Campin - bogus address
>>> Out of that lot {Scottish music professors in the last 100 years],
>>> only Robin Orr (Glasgow 1956-66) was a composer of atonal music.
>> only academe with which I am intimately aware is that in the USA.
> Hmmm. What is true for Scotland must be true for the rest of the world
> (if there is a world beyond Hadrian's wall)!
First World Protestant countries are pretty homogeneous in their
approach to high culture. We're a bit more peripheral than you
are, not quite so peripheral as small-town America, but academics
in music in the late 20th century migrated freely everywhere from
Vienna to Hawaii.
The only living Dutch composer many people have heard of is Louis
Andriessen, who has been your country's leading musical academic
for about 50 years and has hardly written anything atonal since
the early 60s. I haven't met him personally but I'm 2 degrees of
separation away via any of about half a dozen people in the Scottish
contemporary music scene who've worked with him in the Hague. I'd
expect most of the American posters here could say the same. One
of the more significant technical innovations for 20th century music
was the Boeing 707.
Peter T. Daniels
<bo...@purr.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> If were that intimately familiar with it you'd know how many copies
> of Walter Piston's textbooks sold to American college students. If
> tonality was banned how come just about every college in the country
> had its students reading "Harmony"? (On looking at the Wikipedia
> page I see it was even reprinted specially for the US Armed Forces
> during WW2).
Both Picasso and Jackson Pollock could draw very well, thank you. You
need a thorough grounding in the Tradition before you can
intelligently depart from it.
You might just as well have cited Schoenberg's textbooks, which are
concerned primarily with tonal music. His innovations are presented
separately.
Matthew�B.�Tepper
caused the following letters to be typed in
> Trying to be patronizing doesn't mean you weren't talking bollocks.
Should the time ever come that you have learned politeness, I hope somebody
will let me know so that I may take you out of my killfile. Until such time,
your opinions do not interest me.
Pawlly Phonic
> Jack Campin - bogus address <bo...@purr.demon.co.uk> appears to have
>
> > Trying to be patronizing doesn't mean you weren't talking bollocks.
>
> Should the time ever come that you have learned politeness, I hope somebody
> will let me know so that I may take you out of my killfile. Until such time,
> your opinions do not interest me.
Cheers, Jack! You made Tepper's list of fame. Though he was talking
bollocks so I can't imagine why having the goodness to inform him so
is impolite. And you needn't bother to drum any more for Amazon and
Carnegie, Mat. Just add me to the file. Making friends with
Philistines can get one stoned to death. 'Sez so in the Bible.
Paula
Gerard
> Jack Campin - bogus address <bo...@purr.demon.co.uk> appears to have
> caused the following letters to be typed in
> news:bogus-C4DEFA....@news.albasani.net:
>
> > Trying to be patronizing doesn't mean you weren't talking bollocks.
>
> Should the time ever come that you have learned politeness, I hope
> somebody will let me know
That time has come. Please notice.
> Until such time, your opinions do not interest me.
Idem, any time.
Allen
has to hurt your ears? If that is true, you should visit a good ENT.
Allen
Pawlly Phonic
> where is it written that good classical music
> has to hurt your ears? If that is true, you should visit a good ENT.
Easier to just turn the volume down. No classical music played on
proper equipment hurts the ears. What happens is, music that hasn't
already been heard dozens of times, or that isn't full of clichés that
have been heard dozens of times, can actually wake up the brain. Some
find this a very disconcerting and painful experience,
Paula
Bob Lombard
> On Nov 25, 11:37 am, Allen <all...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
>> where is it written that good classical music
>> has to hurt your ears? If that is true, you should visit a good ENT.
>
> Easier to just turn the volume down. No classical music played on
> proper equipment hurts the ears. What happens is, music that hasn't
> have been heard dozens of times, can actually wake up the brain. Some
> find this a very disconcerting and painful experience,
>
> Paula
I am not a particularly cynical person, but Paula continues to give me
the impression that she has created compositions that haven't been
received well. That could be a 'painful experience', which, not
handled constructively, can cause resentment. I have avoided labeling
these hypothetical compositions music, because I believe that music
requires a recognition process that must take place in the mind of the
hearer, below the level of rationalization.
bl
ps. Because I do not knowingly cross-post, Paula may not see this
post. I am not in hiding.
Taree Dawg
> On Nov 25, 11:37 am, Allen <all...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
>> where is it written that good classical music
>> has to hurt your ears? If that is true, you should visit a good ENT.
>
> Easier to just turn the volume down. No classical music played on
> proper equipment hurts the ears. What happens is, music that hasn't
> have been heard dozens of times, can actually wake up the brain. Some
> find this a very disconcerting and painful experience,
>
> Paula
Some, and I repeat the word 'some', classical music, that is INTELLIGENT
and written by those with more than a few brain cells, is intended to be
disconcerting and painful.
What many people here cannot tolerate is pretentious garbage.
Ray Hall, Taree
Doug McDonald
>>
>> Easier to just turn the volume down. No classical music played on
>> proper equipment hurts the ears.
Really?
In fact, if the speakers are perfect, it CAN'T be true,
because the Chicago Symphony, doing a very good performance of
the "Benvenuto Cellini Overture" hurt my ears, quite a lot. Very very loud,
even sitting in the 12th row center.
Doug McDonald
Peter T. Daniels
Well ... the Turangalila Symphony (Previn, CSO) was pretty darn loud.
Probably the loudest music I've ever heard. (I've never been to a rock
concert.)
Steve Thompson
> Well ... the Turangalila Symphony (Previn, CSO) was pretty darn loud.
> Probably the loudest music I've ever heard. (I've never been to a rock
> concert.)
I've been to a lot of rock concerts, but probably very close to the
loudest sounds I have ever heard at a concert was the CBSO, some time in
the late 1960's, playing Scheherazade. I forget the conductor now (Hugo
Rignold, perhaps). The loudest rock concert was definitely Golden Earring.
-s
Frank Berger
According to this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudest_band_in_the_world
rock bands can achive up to around 140 db. According to one web site I saw,
anything over around 120 can can cause permanent hearing loss even if
exposed for a short time. Not sure how loud a symphony orchestra can get.
As someone who has only one good ear (congenital), I'm really careful with
the other one.
number_six
I used to see some shows with heavily amplified music -- such as ELP
in the 70s, the Fibonaccis in the 80s, Ministry and the Swans in the
90s, as well as certain shows with less amplification, such as Nick
Cave, Tracy Chapman, Johnny Cash, Paul Simon -- but I was never a
frequent rock concertgoer. Especially once synthesized percussion
came into widespread use, but even before, I brought shooter's
earplugs with me, and I used 'em.
Eventually I decided that if I needed to wear earplugs, I didn't need
to attend. I have not gone to a rock show in a decade, unless you
count street fair type of performances of groups like Four Preps,
Herman's Hermits, Dick Dale. These were open air not enclosed, amped
but not absurdly so, intended to be family-friendly events.
Probably the most consternation I ever experienced at a classical
concert was due to Krenek and Becker works at a guitar concert -- and
it wasn't due to the volume. At some concerts -- Magic Flute,
Vivaldi, Revueltas -- I have wished for a bit *more* volume.
Then there was that time a blimp flew over the Bowl while the Ax man
(or was it Buchbinder?) was negotiating the slow movement of a
Beethoven concerto.
Happy Thanksgiving to all.
Pawlly Phonic
> Well ... the Turangalila Symphony (Previn, CSO) was pretty darn loud.
> Probably the loudest music I've ever heard. (I've never been to a rock
> concert.)
I've heard that some halls and orchestras are trying for more DBs.
The audiences supposedly find it "thrilling". Wonderful. You'd think
they'd have more sense than to try to compete with rock concerts where
a few teenagers can blow away any orchestra by simply twisting a
dial. And classical CDs seem to have more and more (and less and less
realistic) dynamic range.
In Europe they've had to tone orchestra concerts down as workers are
protected by the EU.
You're wise to avoid rock concerts. That the performers themselves
are wearing custom-molded ear plugs should tell you something. These
events cause permanent hearing loss. Football games ditto. The loss
is small but it is permanent and cumulative.
Ironic that just when technology is coming up with fantastic ways to
reproduce sound much of the population seems bent on making itself
deaf. Perhaps this is why marketers of high-tech audio are being
frustated by the public's love affair with mp3.
Paula
Matthew�B.�Tepper
following letters to be typed in news:uXgPm.250758$Xw3.246916@en-nntp-
04.dc1.easynews.com:
> I am not a particularly cynical person, but Paula continues to give me
> the impression that she has created compositions that haven't been
> received well. That could be a 'painful experience', which, not handled
> constructively, can cause resentment. I have avoided labeling these
> hypothetical compositions music, because I believe that music requires a
> recognition process that must take place in the mind of the hearer, below
> the level of rationalization.
You think she's resentful and taking it out on other people? Imagine that.
> ps. Because I do not knowingly cross-post, Paula may not see this post.
> I am not in hiding.
--
Gerard
> rock bands can achive up to around 140 db. According to one web site
> I saw, anything over around 120 can can cause permanent hearing loss
> even if exposed for a short time. Not sure how loud a symphony
> orchestra can get. As someone who has only one good ear (congenital),
> I'm really careful with the other one.
Shouldn't you better be careful with the _good_ one?
Gerard
>
> You're wise to avoid rock concerts. That the performers themselves
> are wearing custom-molded ear plugs should tell you something.
Actually not. These performers do this for work, during many hours a day; that's
a different situation.
Pawlly Phonic
True, but still the sound levels, for the audience, are more than
enough to cause permanent damage. Less damage for less exposure time
but still permanent and cumulative. And the audience has no
protection at all.
WHETHER there is damage depends entirely on the DB level. The AMOUNT
of damage depends on exposure time, cumulatively over your life span.
And again it is permanent. There is no way to "heal" it.
Paula
david...@aol.com
> What many people here cannot tolerate is pretentious garbage.
>
> Ray Hall, Taree
"Pretentious garbage" as defined by Ray Hall of Taree, of course,
which includes anything he perceives as random noise, regardless of
what its performers actually perceive.
-david gable
Taree Dawg
You draw the wrong conclusion, as you often do. Pink noise is random but
has certain qualities that define it as being different from red or
white noise. It occurs often in nature, and rainful produces plenty of
pink noise, and is one of the reasons the sound of rain is so relaxing
to so many.
Many of the performers play much incomprehensible garbage, simply
because they are musicians and are never immune from receiving an extra
pay check.
Any fool who can notate (or even devise their own notation) can write
complex music. It takes genius to write music that is great and
understood by the many.
Ray Hall, Taree
number_six
Xenakis just turned up on a CD I was listening to -- he has a piece
called Concret pH on the "Early Modulations" collection.
I have no idea if or how he wrote this down, but I assume the
discussion about notation related more to music intended to be played
by performers with instruments, rather than music "realized"
electronically.
It was listenable, but probably represented a significant shortfall of
outcome as measured against the investment of time, technique, and
effort.
In blood chemistry, there are many, many elements and compounds that
one needs in small amounts for the engine to run properly. Too little
Selenium and one becomes sick; too much and it is toxic.
I would not go so far as to say that a bit of Xenakis is a *necessary*
part of the musical diet. However, I think it quite healthy for him
and his compositional cousins to be represented consistently in trace
amounts, although serious side effects may arise if his music is taken
too oft as the main course.
RobD
The loudest thing I've heard for a long time was Xenakis's Pleiades
for percussion ensemble performed at the Proms last year. And I was
standing some way back, so it must have been very loud indeed at the
front of the arena. Like much of the audience I went to the concert
for Vaughan Williams and Holst, but it was good to have an opportunity
to hear the Xenaxis - I even bought a CD afterwards but this seems
very tame in comparison to the live performance.
But I have the possible advantage of having a degree in maths not
music!
Allen
<snip>
> The loudest thing I've heard for a long time was Xenakis's Pleiades
> for percussion ensemble performed at the Proms last year. And I was
> standing some way back, so it must have been very loud indeed at the
> front of the arena. Like much of the audience I went to the concert
> for Vaughan Williams and Holst, but it was good to have an opportunity
> to hear the Xenaxis - I even bought a CD afterwards but this seems
> very tame in comparison to the live performance.
>
> But I have the possible advantage of having a degree in maths not
> music!
almost-entire work career was in banking. We had all sorts of
degree/work mismatches (including some music majors) at my bank because
it was in Austin, TX, which is such a great place to live that people
don't want to leave when they graduate.
Allen
Joachim Pense
>
> The loudest thing I've heard for a long time was Xenakis's Pleiades
> for percussion ensemble performed at the Proms last year. And I was
> standing some way back, so it must have been very loud indeed at the
> front of the arena.
The loudest thing I heard was a Mascleta in Valencia. I was standing in the
first row, could hear it with my belly, and it was just great.
>
> But I have the possible advantage of having a degree in maths not
> music!
Same with me, but I am not sure it is a possible advantage.
Joachim