Recorded sound improvement with the Bernstein Edition?

[sfr...@nycap.rr.com]

I want LB's Mahler 4th. The one with Reri Grist. It's available on the Royal Edition, here ... https://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Symphony-4-Gustav/dp/B0000027MS

... and the later, Bernstein Edition, at a higher price, here ... https://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Philharmonic-Leonard-Bernstein-Grist/dp/B00138H2KE

Is there a difference in sound quality?

TIA

MIFrost

[John Fowler]

The best sound is in:
https://www.amazon.com/Mahler-The-Complete-Symphonies/dp/B005SJIP1E/ref=cm_cr_srp_d_rvw_txt?ie=UTF8

[John Fowler]

On Saturday, May 30, 2020 at 8:08:14 PM UTC-5, sfr...@nycap.rr.com wrote:

Identical transfer is in
https://www.amazon.com/Bernstein-Conducts-PHILHARMONIC-SYMPHONY-ORCHESTRA/dp/B082BWRKF8/ref=cm_cr_srp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8
but the presentation is better in the above-mentioned box.

[musicologist09]

Is the transfer in the "Carnegie Hall Presents" 2009 box a different intermediate remastering between the "Royal Edition" and the later 2012 "Complete Symphonies" box? Or is that one also the same as 2012 "Complete Symphonies" and 2020 "Bernstein Conducts"? The booklet for the "Carnegie Hall Presents" has a "technical note" by Andreas Meyer which makes it clear that the remastering was indeed NEW for that 2009 release. Was something redone in 2012? Difficult to tell since all the boxes have their own (P) dates! Thanks.

[Chango]

> Is there a difference in sound quality?

> MIFrost

It's a true shame that Sony hasn't seen fit to include, in all the reissue and remastered Lenny Mahler boxes I'm aware of, all the extra Lenny lectures which were included on many of the single-CD editions, from the Royal Edition onward.

Also, the 2012 Sony box I own doesn't contain Das Lied, although it does have Janet Baker/Israel PO Kindertotenlieder.
https://smile.amazon.com/Mahler-Complete-Symphonies-Gustav/dp/B005SJIP1E/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=bernstein+mahler+box&qid=1591035784&s=music&sr=1-1

The 2020 box Had Christa Ludwig/Israel PO Das Lied plus someone's lecture "Gustav Mahler Remembered" by one Wm Malloch. Don't know what that is nor how long it is.
https://smile.amazon.com/Bernstein-Conducts-PHILHARMONIC-SYMPHONY-ORCHESTRA/dp/B082BWRKF8/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=bernstein+mahler+box&qid=1591035849&s=music&sr=1-2

None of the boxes, as far as I know, have his CBS Wunderhorn or Wayfarer.

The prettiest box and box cover by far is
https://smile.amazon.com/Mahler-Complete-Symphonies-Bernstein/dp/B0000589BP/ref=sr_1_7?dchild=1&keywords=bernstein+mahler+box&qid=1591036197&s=music&sr=1-7 which I traded in for the 2012 box because of better sonics. I haven't heard the 2020, but as I'm very happy with what I have, I think I'm stopping right here.

Steve Koenig
www.acousticLevitation.org

[John Fowler]

On Monday, June 1, 2020 at 12:58:06 PM UTC-5, musicologist09 wrote:
> Is the transfer in the "Carnegie Hall Presents" 2009 box a different intermediate remastering between the "Royal Edition" and the later 2012 "Complete Symphonies" box? Or is that one also the same as 2012 "Complete Symphonies" and 2020 "Bernstein Conducts"? The booklet for the "Carnegie Hall Presents" has a "technical note" by Andreas Meyer which makes it clear that the remastering was indeed NEW for that 2009 release. Was something redone in 2012? Difficult to tell since all the boxes have their own (P) dates! Thanks.

THE 24-BIT / 96 KHZ REMASTERING BY ANDREAS K. MEYER DATES TO 2009.
It has appeared in three incarnations:
2009: Carnegie Hall Edition
2012: Mahler Complete Symphonies - only box with original jackets
2020: Bernstein Conducts Mahler - NO BOOKLET

For availability of these boxes on Amazon, see
https://www.amazon.com/Bernstein-Conducts-PHILHARMONIC-SYMPHONY-ORCHESTRA/dp/B082BWRKF8/ref=cm_cr_srp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8

[John Fowler]

NO DIFFERENCE IN REMASTERINGS USED IN 2009, 2012 AND 2020

[wkasimer]

On Wednesday, June 3, 2020 at 8:23:40 AM UTC-4, John Fowler wrote:

> > THE 24-BIT / 96 KHZ REMASTERING BY ANDREAS K. MEYER DATES TO 2009.
> > It has appeared in three incarnations:
> > 2009: Carnegie Hall Edition
> > 2012: Mahler Complete Symphonies - only box with original jackets
> > 2020: Bernstein Conducts Mahler - NO BOOKLET

I'm glad to know that BMG didn't screw up the cheap 2020 box by using different transfers. Bruno Walter wasn't so fortunate.

[weary flake]

Are you talking about the recent Walter big box?
What have you observed about the sound compared
with previous sets?

[wkasimer]

On Wednesday, June 3, 2020 at 2:58:27 PM UTC-4, weary flake wrote:

> > I'm glad to know that BMG didn't screw up the cheap 2020 box by using
> > different transfers. Bruno Walter wasn't so fortunate.
>
> Are you talking about the recent Walter big box?
> What have you observed about the sound compared
> with previous sets?

No, I'm talking about the Masters box "Bruno Walter Conducts Mahler":

https://www.amazon.com/Bruno-Walter-Conducts-Mahler-Gustav/dp/B006XOBFTM

If you listen, for example, to the 2nd in this set and compare it to any other transfer (and there have been several on CD over the past few decades) it sounds dreadful.

The transfers in the big Walter box sound fine, as far as I've been able to tell (I've only barely dipped into it).

[number_six]

On Wednesday, June 3, 2020 at 12:15:51 PM UTC-7, wkasimer wrote:
>
> The transfers in the big Walter box sound fine, as far as I've been able to tell (I've only barely dipped into it).

Couldn't help but smile as I read the phrase "big Walter box" and I summoned up an imaginary collaboration between the famed conductor and blues great Little Walter. You just never know what associations will come to mind.

[Raymond Hall]

This thread brought to mind a very funny translation from a Japanese review of a Boehm Mozart box. If you want to lighten your day, these translations can often help. I have since acquired the later Boehm Mozart/LvB/Schubert/Brahms box a year or so back.

Anyway, the translation gives the following result:-

5.0 out of 5 stars Mortsart of Boehm
Reviewed in Japan on 3 January 2013
Verified Purchase

Once upon a time, I often listened to Mozart of the Blue Nowwalter. Boehm has a memory of listening to the LP of the “Magic Flute”, which seems to be an opera. It was a good sound and I was able to listen in the atmosphere of the 20th century. There is no loss to listen.

Walter's name as spelled is priceless.

Ray Hall, Taree

[weary flake]

On 2020-06-03 19:15:47 +0000, wkasimer said:

> On Wednesday, June 3, 2020 at 2:58:27 PM UTC-4, weary flake wrote:
>
>>> I'm glad to know that BMG didn't screw up the cheap 2020 box by using
>>> different transfers. Bruno Walter wasn't so fortunate.
>>
>> Are you talking about the recent Walter big box?
>> What have you observed about the sound compared
>> with previous sets?
>
> No, I'm talking about the Masters box "Bruno Walter Conducts Mahler":
>
> https://www.amazon.com/Bruno-Walter-Conducts-Mahler-Gustav/dp/B006XOBFTM
>
> If you listen, for example, to the 2nd in this set and compare it to
> any other transfer (and there have been several on CD over the past few
> decades) it sounds dreadful.

It's worth it to post an amazon customer review of the
2012 re-mastering of that 7 CD set, this seems like what
bad engineers do, pile on one processing after another, to
try to correct the defects introduced by the processing:

"Sony has 'remastered' Bruno Walter's recordings of these
symphonies in the most disgusting way possible. They have applied
significant de-noising to the audio and, to compensate for this,
they have EQ'd the treble on these recordings through the roof.
The bottom-end just isn't there, and, in-fact, you can just
barely make out the reverberation and acoustics of the area that
they recorded this in. The audio just feels like it has a hole
right in the middle of it, and it's completely straining on the
ears to listen to this for a significant amount of time. I listen
to my music primarily on headphones, so I don't know if people
with stereo systems will find this as noticeable, but I imagine
it wouldn't be any different. This isn't even the worst of it.
After EQing Walter's recordings to hell and back, I imagine the
guy who worked on this decided it didn't sound bad enough, so he
concluded that he should mess with the dynamics and balances of
the recordings. Fortunately he didn't seem to apply dynamic
compression, but, instead, the dynamics are extremely
schizophrenic in that the audio sounds like it's either cut far
too low, or far too high. I have access to LP rips from original
issues of these recordings and, in a lot areas, it doesn't even
come close to sounding like the same recording. If you want to
experience Bruno Walter's Mahler without your ears bleeding then
I suggest you get the old "CBS Masterwork" series of these
recordings. These may be more hard to find, and possibly more
expensive to boot, but they offer far superior mastering. Pray
for the person who mastered these recordings, for they are
clearly deaf."

[number_six]

There's Nowwalter like the Blue one, I guess!

[wkasimer]

On Thursday, June 4, 2020 at 12:50:29 AM UTC-4, weary flake wrote:

> It's worth it to post an amazon customer review of the
> 2012 re-mastering of that 7 CD set, this seems like what
> bad engineers do, pile on one processing after another, to
> try to correct the defects introduced by the processing:

Another feature that I found particularly irritating was the spreading of Symphony No. 2 over two discs. That was unnecessary, since a previous transfer, in an earlier Original Jackets box, was issued on a single CD.

[John Fowler]

Another feature that I found particularly irritating was the spreading of Symphony No. 2 over two discs. That was unnecessary, since a previous transfer, in an earlier Original Jackets box, was issued on a single CD.

That's because the 2020 box is a straight reissue of the 2009 Carnegie Hall box (minus the booklet).
Though the remasterings are identical in all 3 boxes, the 2012 original jacket box is more user-friendly.

[John Fowler]

the most user-friendly.

[wkasimer]

Weary Flake and I were referring to the Bruno Walter set, not Bernstein.

[John Fowler]

Weary Flake and I were referring to the Bruno Walter set, not Bernstein.

Oops. Sorry. On closer examination, I was wrong and Mahler's 2nd in the 2012 Bernstein box is also on 2 discs. The major coupling difference between the 2012 Bernstein box and the other two is that Mahler 1 was on a disc by itself in 2012, not coupled with 10, and that Symphony 3 was on two discs by itself, not coupled with 4. In 2012, 4 was on a disc by itself. This reflects the original jacket layout. Another nice thing about 2 and 3 in 1012, is that each symphony comes with 2 discs in a fold-out jacket with 3 pages of original program notes on the inside and back of the jackets.

[John Fowler]

On Friday, June 5, 2020 at 2:45:59 PM UTC-5, John Fowler wrote:
> Weary Flake and I were referring to the Bruno Walter set, not Bernstein.
>
> Oops. Sorry. On closer examination, I was wrong and Mahler's 2nd in the 2012 Bernstein box is also on 2 discs. The major coupling difference between the 2012 Bernstein box and the other two is that Mahler 1 was on a disc by itself in 2012, not coupled with 10, and that Symphony 3 was on two discs by itself, not coupled with 4. In 2012, 4 was on a disc by itself. This reflects the original jacket layout. Another nice thing about 2 and 3 in 1012, is that each symphony comes with 2 discs in a fold-out jacket with 3 pages of original program notes on the inside and back of the jackets.

Symphony 10 was on a separate disc in 2012 coupled with the Janet Baker Kindertotenlieder, same as on LP. Another nice thing about getting the original program notes is that they include texts and translations for Symphonies 2,3 4 and Kindertotenlieder (but not Symphony 8)

[John Fowler]

Actually, Walter's Mahler box was issued in 2012, so you wouldn't expect to use the 2020 remasterings from the big box.

[Alex Brown]

Is this the same Mahler/Walter set of which another Amazon review says:

"The justification for this set is the technical wizardry of Andreas
Meyer once again in his 24Bit Re-mastering of these recordings from the
late 1950s and early 1960s by CBS. The improvement in sound quality
defies description-if you think you've heard these recordings at their
best let me assure you that this is not the case until you have heard
them in this new edition."

https://amzn.to/3gWK0eQ

Is that the same Andreas Meyer who is meant (to borrow a phrase) to have
freed the music from the audio for Bernstein's CBS Mahler?

--
- Alex Brown

[wkasimer]

On Friday, June 5, 2020 at 4:45:51 PM UTC-4, Alex Brown wrote:

> Is this the same Mahler/Walter set of which another Amazon review says:
>
> "The justification for this set is the technical wizardry of Andreas
> Meyer once again in his 24Bit Re-mastering of these recordings from the
> late 1950s and early 1960s by CBS. The improvement in sound quality
> defies description-if you think you've heard these recordings at their
> best let me assure you that this is not the case until you have heard
> them in this new edition."
>
> https://amzn.to/3gWK0eQ

The same. Yet another example of why one should pay little attention to most Amazon reviews. The only way that this transfer might seem acceptable is if one had never heard the recordings before in any previous issue, or one is listening on a boombox or in the car.

[Alex Brown]

For symphonies 1&2 I have (buried in a box in the attic) the first CBS
CD issue, as well as this box, and the Pristine Audio transfers
(presumably from early LP) so could do an A-B-C comparison, although my
52 year old ears aren't what they were.

But I'm intrigued how the same engineer - Andreas Meyer - who is the
villain of Walter's Mahler is also regarded as the hero of Bernstein's
Mahler. Or was the same approach applied for Bernstein and all the
praise we hear of those later remasters just Emperor's new clothes stuff?


--
- Alex Brown

[John Fowler]

> But I'm intrigued how the same engineer - Andreas Meyer - who is the
> villain of Walter's Mahler is also regarded as the hero of Bernstein's
> Mahler. Or was the same approach applied for Bernstein and all the
> praise we hear of those later remasters just Emperor's new clothes stuff?

> - Alex Brown

I don't think that Andres Meyer necessarily remastered the 2012 Walter Mahler super-budget box.
I don't own that box, but other boxes in the same series come without booklets and don't credit the remastering engineer on the jackets or on the box.
The back of the box does contain a logo reading "24-bit High Resolution Audio". All the super-budget boxes used to include that logo, but the newest set of releases do not.

[John Fowler]

> I don't think that Andres Meyer necessarily remastered the 2012 Walter Mahler super-budget box.
> I don't own that box, but other boxes in the same series come without booklets and don't credit the remastering engineer on the jackets or on the box.
> The back of the box does contain a logo reading "24-bit High Resolution Audio". All the super-budget boxes used to include that logo, but the newest set of releases do not.

The back of the 2012 Sony box does contain a logo reading "24-bit High Resolution Audio".
All Sony super-budget boxes used to include that logo, but their newest budget box releases do not.
The single disc Mahler 2 in the 2020 Walter mega-box was remastered by Jennifer Nulsen and Andreas K. Meyer, Meyer Media LLC.

[msw design]

On Wednesday, June 3, 2020 at 7:20:07 AM UTC-5, John Fowler wrote:

Looks like the Meyer masters were also used in the Bernstein Symphony box as well. Same exact times as the new box, and they sound identical.

[Raymond Hall]

On Tuesday, 9 June 2020 13:04:10 UTC+10, msw design wrote:
> On Wednesday, June 3, 2020 at 7:20:07 AM UTC-5, John Fowler wrote:
> > On Monday, June 1, 2020 at 12:58:06 PM UTC-5, musicologist09 wrote:
> > > Is the transfer in the "Carnegie Hall Presents" 2009 box a different intermediate remastering between the "Royal Edition" and the later 2012 "Complete Symphonies" box? Or is that one also the same as 2012 "Complete Symphonies" and 2020 "Bernstein Conducts"? The booklet for the "Carnegie Hall Presents" has a "technical note" by Andreas Meyer which makes it clear that the remastering was indeed NEW for that 2009 release. Was something redone in 2012? Difficult to tell since all the boxes have their own (P) dates! Thanks.

---------------------------------------------

I've got the Mahler box that was issued around 2013, with Lenny on the podium front image on box, (entitled "Leonard Bernstein" in caps, "The complete Mahler Symphonies" in a lower case) and with the CDs in cardboard sleeves containing original sleeve images. The booklet notes are by Klaus Geitel, and the notes states the DSD Mastering Engineer as Andreas K. Meyer. The compilation date given as 2012. Fwiw.

The sound is richer and more natural sounding to these ears, but then so many versions had/have been issued it is difficult to track what was issued and when. When I had the LPs the images on my CBS sleeves were also different than those given in the 2013 box. My LPs were purchased in the UK.

Ray Hall, Taree

[Juan I. Cahis]

Dear friends:

It is curious, but in my opinion, the unretouched Mahler and Sibelius
Symphonies CD sets sound a lot better than the remastered ones. They sound
more natural and pleasant. The remastered ones have an echo (or a lack of
echo in the soft sections) that it is unnatural. The aim to eliminate any
trace of tape hiss destroys the natural ambiance of the original recording.


--
Enviado desde mi iPad usando NewsTap, Juan I. Cahis, Santiago de Chile.

[Frank Berger]

I've never understood the obsession with getting rid of all
tape hiss. I find the brain (at least mine, such as it is)
filters it out entirely. Even using headphones.

[John Fowler]

Most early CDs had every trace of hiss removed from them - Anyone remember CEDAR?

[Bob Harper]

Agreed. As long as it's not really obtrusive, hiss is not a problem for
me either. Could be age.

Bob Harper

[weary flake]

On 2020-06-09 15:01:58 +0000, John Fowler said:

> Most early CDs had every trace of hiss removed from them - Anyone
> remember CEDAR?

Early CDs are free of noise reduction, as it wasn't
invented and used yet. A 1988 EMI CD is more likely
to sound better than a 1992 EMI CD. I look for
early CDs when I have a choice.

[msw design]

Entered as evidence: Supraphon's Ancerl Edition.

[Frank Berger]

And yet, it's easy to find reviews touting the improved
sound in the Ancerl Edition over earlier releases. I guess
different ears hear different things. I have several
"duplicates" so I could compare for myself if I get around
to it.

[msw design]

On Tuesday, June 9, 2020 at 4:32:26 PM UTC-5, Frank Berger wrote:

> And yet, it's easy to find reviews touting the improved
> sound in the Ancerl Edition over earlier releases. I guess
> different ears hear different things. I have several
> "duplicates" so I could compare for myself if I get around
> to it.

They are so different that you can almost treat them as apples-oranges. What they aren't is obviously better, at least most of the time.

[Frank Berger]

Hmm. I took your post to mean that the Ancerl Edition was
better. Guess I misunderstood (even after re-reading).

[msw design]

I'll clarify:

> Early CDs are free of noise reduction, as it wasn't
> invented and used yet. A 1988 EMI CD is more likely
> to sound better than a 1992 EMI CD. I look for
> early CDs when I have a choice.

Entered as evidence: Supraphon's Ancerl Edition. The earlier AAD and ADD Postage stamp issues have an honesty to them that is not shown in the later Ancerl Edition (and often have the hiss to prove it).

[Lawrence Chalmers]

On Saturday, May 30, 2020 at 6:08:14 PM UTC-7, sfr...@nycap.rr.com wrote:
> I want LB's Mahler 4th. The one with Reri Grist. It's available on the Royal Edition, here ... https://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Symphony-4-Gustav/dp/B0000027MS
>
> ... and the later, Bernstein Edition, at a higher price, here ... https://www.amazon.com/Mahler-Philharmonic-Leonard-Bernstein-Grist/dp/B00138H2KE
>
> Is there a difference in sound quality?
>
> TIA
>
> MIFrost

[Lawrence Chalmers]

I was wondering if the Royal Edition of his NYP recording of Le Sacre differs from a later reissue w/ the original jacket. Anyone?

[Raymond Hall]

The same can be said of many of the Decca releases on Elequence of the period 1955-1965. I've been looking through a lot of Ansermet recordings of that period, and some opera recordings (mostly Russian operas) produced in Bulgaria, and sampling snippets of these recordings can reveal quite startlingly good sound. I feel as though we have been led down a path whereby the 'presence' has been gradually sucked out of the sound by remastering techniques.

Ray Hall, Taree

[Owen]

While I agree with you that CD's produced in the beginning of the CD era
are different from masterings done in later years. In the beginning of
the era, CD's were just sampled at 32 bits (either from orchestral
recording or original tape or vinyl or whatever) and transferred
directly to the CD with no processing. There were several attempts at
noise reduction (i.e. Cedar), but I believe that now sampling is done at
higher bit levels and down sampled with heuristics to provide better
sound. All I know is just from articles I've read, perhaps someone in
the business like M-O-T might want to weigh in on the matter.

-Owen