On self-moderation

[Herman]

On Monday, December 5, 2022 at 3:59:31 AM UTC+1, Notsure01 wrote:

> I imagine that you are not proposing moving to a web forum (like
> TalkClassical) or a native Google group (such as SymphonyShare), but
> instead changing RMCR to a "Moderated Usenet Newsgroup"? And would we be
> able to find someone willing to filter out the periodic floods of
> messages from textbook hawkers, italian pornographers, and the like?
>
> And would those-who-break-the-rules be forced to leave - wouldn't that
> result in the loss of valuable contributors who, while they may have
> unfortunate mannerisms, are also generally insightful and interesting?
>
> If there is indeed a willingness to vote on rules and then to abide by
> them, wouldn't it be easier just to manage this informally? Thus, for
> example, if many people here were to say "Mr Notsure, your periodic
> attempts at humour are not amusing, but just irritating", then I could
> (hypothetically) moderate myself and stop inflicting lame jokes on this
> group.
>
> Or as another example, if multiple members of the group would vote that
> we should avoid personal insults and endless back-and-forth squabbles,
> if we all complied wouldn't that achieve our goal of making RMCR a
> pleasant and welcoming environment - but without all the fuss of formal
> moderation?
>
> Le's now see what any of the other interested parties think. I'd be glad
> to provide a draft of "RMCR Guidelines" if there is agreement...

[Herman]

The above was copy-pasted from the predictably chaotic Stravinsky Travesty topic.

In essence it's pretty easy, virtually all 'members' of this group behave like responsible adults, just like they would In Real Life.
Also, most people don't use this ng as a sort of podium to promote a outsize non-IRL version of themselves. They just discuss music, recordings and other subjects of interest.

To most people it's a no-brainer you don't shout in all-caps at other posters or call them names. Even if you felt like that for a moment, it always takes time to do so, so you don't.

However, this is an invitation to contribute ideas.

[Herman]

And the case of anonymous posters: I can imagine not everyone feels like using his full real name as a username. However, to some it would feel better if there was a first name. It feels kind of awkward to have to address a longtime member als 8g, for instance.

[HT]

Op maandag 5 december 2022 om 09:50:46 UTC+1 schreef Herman:

It is fashionable these days - at all levels - to want to regulate the behavior of the others. Until now, RMCR has been a sanctuary. I think we should keep it that way.

Henk

[Herman]

On Monday, December 5, 2022 at 12:10:44 PM UTC+1, hvt...@xs4all.nl wrote:
>
> It is fashionable these days - at all levels - to want to regulate the behavior of the others. Until now, RMCR has been a sanctuary. I think we should keep it that way.
>

I believe Mr Sure and I empathically talked about "SELF-moderation", at least that's what I did.

I think it's in the title of this topic. So I guess it would be pretty obvious.

[HT]

Op maandag 5 december 2022 om 12:17:16 UTC+1 schreef Herman:

"RMCR Guidelines" and self-moderation?

Henk

[Herman]

On Monday, December 5, 2022 at 12:23:18 PM UTC+1, hvt...@xs4all.nl wrote:
>
> "RMCR Guidelines" and self-moderation?
>
> Henk

I'm not responsible for Mr. Sure's ideas or choice of words.
It's pretty clear that I have always said, "just behave as you would do in real life, towards real people" and you don't need rules or moderation by 3d parties.

Free speech absolutism is tedious.
RMCR is no "sanctuary". Just a bunch of guys on the internet.

[Herman]

The whole "moderator" issue looks like a red herring to me.
If there is the software structure on RMCR to install a moderator who can remove and chastize I haven't seen it yet.
Also, the internet happens to be 'on' 24/7, so you'd need three or more guys who would "moderate" in various shifts.
That's about a quarter of the daily active RMCR population, just look at the stats.
It's a fantasy.

[Herman]

Obviously the stats don't tally the age of these regulars, but it's clear many of 'em are very old, and consequently RMCR will dwindle and straightline in something like five years time.
Especially since a few of these very senior members do everything in their power to keep younger newbies out.

Which reminds me that I haven't heard from Frank B. (whom I like) in quite a while. I'm hoping all's well with him.

[Notsure01]

When I suggested the "RMCR Guidelines" it was just in response to Dan's
suggestions (see below). Personally, I would just leave the situation as
is, since there is no real solution to this Internet-wide problem.

I'm willing to just drop this issue now, and, difficult as it may be,
hope that you and Gerard could also consider refraining from indulging
in debates that are unlikely to result in a positive outcome.

Of course, it would be great if other group members have better
suggestions...

On Sunday, December 4, 2022 at 4:24:26 PM UTC-8, Notsure01 wrote:
>
> It's just not practical to moderate
> this group - what about those great
> textbook bargains - but we could
> certainly moderate our own behavior!

On Dec 4, 2022, 8:10:11 PM Dan Koren wrote:

No we can't. We all come from different
cultures and different nations, we all
have different notions of what is Ok
and what is not -- and so on and so
forth. Without a clearly defined and
agreed upon framework and clear
procedural rules the results of
"self-moderation" will be no
different than the pigsty we
are in.

You can be Verysure01 about it.

dk

[HT]

Op maandag 5 december 2022 om 12:29:07 UTC+1 schreef Herman:

RMCR is not moderated. Just a bunch of guys on the Internet, as you say. Let's keep it that way while it lasts. Your problems will solve themselves. Like your problem with most of us being of a senior age. You have only to stay young yourself.

Henk

[Andy Evans]

There shouldn't be digital fist fights over the music posts, but who knows - they treated the Rite pretty roughly.

It's the OT posts that create the worst insults, if I'm judging the ng correctly. I'm as guilty as others - Frank and I have running battles since we hold very different views on the main issues and we can both be a bit passionate. But the OT posts always add value to newsgroups so it would be a drab solution to only make on-topic threads. In practice that never works anyway since most of us are divergent thinkers by nature.

I think we just soldier on as we are. I seem to be using military terminology for some reason.....

[Andy Evans]

Can we address each other on ngs as we would in the flesh? I doubt it....

I'm more inclined towards "All the world's a stage and all the men and women merely players..."

I think there's a feeling that when approaching a newsgroup we make our entrances and exits, and are prone to turn into the soldier "Full of strange oaths and sudden and quick in quarrel"

[Frank Berger]

On 12/5/2022 7:03 AM, Herman wrote:
> On Monday, December 5, 2022 at 12:52:26 PM UTC+1, Herman wrote:

> Obviously the stats don't tally the age of these regulars, but it's pretty clear many of 'em over very old, and consequently RMCR will dwindle and straightline in something like five years time.
> Especially since some of these very senior members do everything in their power to keep younger newbies out.

>
> Which reminds me that I haven't heard from Frank B. (whom I like) in quite a while. I'm hoping all's well with him.

I've decided to stay out of the fray this time. I'm fine, thank you.

[Herman]

On Monday, December 5, 2022 at 2:33:32 PM UTC+1, Frank Berger wrote:
>
> I've decided to stay out of the fray this time. I'm fine, thank you.

Well, that's the best news to come out of this, frankly.

[Herman]

On Monday, December 5, 2022 at 1:56:34 PM UTC+1, hvt...@xs4all.nl wrote:
> Your problems will solve themselves. Like your problem with most of us being of a senior age. You have only to stay young yourself.
>

Many people would not call me "young" either, it's obviously a relative matter.
What I was trying to say, if all RMCRers are, let's say, of an advanced age, and younger newbies are made to feel unwelcome, RMCR will peter out in five to ten years.
I'm not saying it's the end of the world.

[Paul Goodman]

On Dec 5, 2022, Herman wrote
(in article<686db5d6-7d50-49b4...@googlegroups.com>):

This post is just for clarification and is not meant as an opinion as to
whether we need to be more civil to each other. The bottom line is that you
cannot physically moderate a newsgroup because there is no central server
hosting usenet groups such as rec.music.classical.recordings. When a person
posts to this group, the article is transmitted through NNTP to all the other
servers hosting the group almost instantly. I use Giganews as my server,
others use Supernews, Google or any other of a multitude of hosts that have
been set up for this purpose. At one point in the history of usenet, you
could send out a “cancel” for a post that you made and an article would
disappear off all the other servers too. But because individuals were forging
cancels for articles that other people wrote, usenet servers stopped honoring
cancels a long time ago. So if you write a post using google and decide to
cancel it, I am still going to see it no matter what because I am not using
google to read this group. The few actual moderated newsgroups that were
created in the 1980’s required the poster to send the article to a separate
address first to be “approved” before it was posted. Those no longer
exist and would not work in the present environment.

--
Paul Goodman

[Herman]

On Monday, December 5, 2022 at 4:21:07 PM UTC+1, Paul Goodman wrote:
> On Dec 5, 2022, Herman wrote
> (in article<686db5d6-7d50-49b4...@googlegroups.com>):
> > The above was copy-pasted from the predictably chaotic Stravinsky Travesty
> > topic.
> >
> > In essence it's pretty easy, virtually all 'members' of this group behave
> > like responsible adults, just like they would In Real Life.
> > Also, most people don't use this ng as a sort of podium to promote a outsize
> > non-IRL version of themselves. They just discuss music, recordings and other
> > subjects of interest.
> >
> > To most people it's a no-brainer you don't shout in all-caps at other posters
> > or call them names. Even if you felt like that for a moment, it always takes
> > time to do so, so you don't.
> >
> > However, this is an invitation to contribute ideas.
> This post is just for clarification and is not meant as an opinion as to
> whether we need to be more civil to each other. The bottom line is that you
> cannot physically moderate a newsgroup because there is no central server
> hosting usenet groups

That's why I wrote this:

On Monday, December 5, 2022 at 12:52:26 PM UTC+1, Herman wrote:

> The whole "moderator" issue looks like a red herring to me.
> If there is the software structure on RMCR to install a moderator who can remove and chastize I haven't seen it yet.

It's kind of amusing that one of our esteemed contributors, who occasionally prides himself on his uniquely successful career in this field, didn't seem to be aware of this.

[HT]

Op maandag 5 december 2022 om 14:43:10 UTC+1 schreef Herman:

RMCR is not a great place for newbies - and never will be anymore. Nowadays we have YT, Spotify, etc. We can make up our own minds

The unique selling point of RMCR is that we have known each other for over a decade, and pretty well thanks to OTs and personal clashes.

So chances are RMCR will be no more in five to ten years from now. The world won't notice.

Henk

[Herman]

On Monday, December 5, 2022 at 4:42:15 PM UTC+1, hvt...@xs4all.nl wrote:
>
> RMCR is not a great place for newbies - and never will be anymore. Nowadays we have YT, Spotify, etc. We can make up our own minds
>
> The unique selling point of RMCR is that we have known each other for over a decade, and pretty well thanks to OTs and personal clashes.
>
> So chances are RMCR will be no more in five to ten years from now. The world won't notice.
>
> Henk

You may be right. Personally though, I find the occasional immigration of a newbie, such as Mr IsHeSure, refreshing.

[HT]

Op maandag 5 december 2022 om 16:51:35 UTC+1 schreef Herman:

All newbies are welcome, old or young. I'd also love to see more diversity. But even veterans left us, and for good reason. RMCR isn't a safe environment - and I must add, make it safe, and it won't be RMCR any more.

Henk

[Frank Berger]

Is there evidence that any veterans (which ones) left because of the "toxicity" as opposed to dying, illness, losing interest or something else?

[Andy Evans]

On Monday, 5 December 2022 at 16:28:07 UTC, Frank Berger wrote:

> Is there evidence that any veterans (which ones) left because of the "toxicity" as opposed to dying, illness, losing interest or something else?

Good question. I suspect remaining users are immune to the toxins.

I liked the romantic notion that we've been together for so many years. What a nice warm feeling....

Mind, more like The Addams Family than Friends. Incidentally, does "Thing" play a musical instrument?

[HT]

Op maandag 5 december 2022 om 17:28:07 UTC+1 schreef Frank Berger:

> Is there evidence that any veterans (which ones) left because of the "toxicity" as opposed to dying, illness, losing interest or something else?

Alan Cooper did so openly. So did a good friend of mine. He left in silence.

Henk

[Herman]

Occasionally I glance at one of those ancient topics gggggg resuscitates (usually for no reason I can see) and the difference in tone, depth, information and also friendliness and courtesy just blows me away.
This is why I joined fifteen ago, or something (I have no idea, really, when I did).
So I can imagine people leave because the group has ceased to be what it used to be.

[Mandryka]

Yes of course but the fact remains that this group can be helpful, at least in the sense of providing some signposts of things to listen for, and to. That was the case for me in threads I started on Scriabin, Braxton and James Tenney, and discussions I was involved in about Josquin and Cage. So on the whole I think rmcr is not such a terrible place.

[Mandryka]

And Wolf and Brahms and Duparc . . . you see!

[Graham]

Didn't Tom D leave in a snit? Mind you, he sometimes made Dan look like
a milksop.

[Todd M. McComb]

In article <0001HW.293E43DA0...@news-central.giganews.com>,

Paul Goodman <good...@comcast.net> wrote:
>The few actual moderated newsgroups that were created in the 1980's
>required the poster to send the article to a separate address first
>to be "approved" before it was posted. Those no longer exist and
>would not work in the present environment.

There are still functioning moderated groups. But converting an
existed group to moderated was long deprecated, and in today's
Usenet, is definitely not recommended. Most sites would leave the
group marked as unmoderated.

And just to be clear: I am the person who makes the Usenet moderation
system, in general, function. There does not exist a person with
more knowledge of this situation.

[Gerard]

Op 2022-12-05 om 16:42 schreef HT:

>
> The unique selling point of RMCR is that we have known each other for over a decade, and pretty well thanks to OTs and personal clashes.
>

Most of the ones I liked to have known have left the group since long.
I have never seen any OT "discussion" of any value. It is all useless
and garbage, rubbish, pollution.

[Todd M. McComb]

In article <2d33abc2-847e-438e...@googlegroups.com>,

Mandryka <howie....@gmail.com> wrote:
>Yes of course but the fact remains that this group can be helpful,
>at least in the sense of providing some signposts of things to
>listen for, and to.

Yes, I find the group useful for finding things -- usually new
releases -- that interest me, but that I don't otherwise notice.
There were decades where I basically just skimmed, but I would still
note new things. I'd be happy to have more actual music discussion
too, but as others have noted, besides being off topic, the OT
"discussions" tend to be of very low quality as well.

[Mandryka]

I think discussions about music are low quality in every English language music forum I read: this one is no worse than the others. People can be directly offensive, but I've seen them be as bad in moderated forums: it all depends on whether the offensiveness ruffles the feathers of the moderators or not. And in truth, I'd rather have people be directly offensive than snidely (he said, having just made a snide and offensive and personal comment to Ari. So be it, I'm as bad as the rest.)

[Todd M. McComb]

In article <24c80ffa-6a94-4391...@googlegroups.com>,

Mandryka <howie....@gmail.com> wrote:
>I think discussions about music are low quality in every English
>language music forum I read: this one is no worse than the others.

The music discussions are the best... not perfect, but more people
actually know what they're talking about! Plus, you know, we signed
up for that.

[Mandryka]

These are the two best fora for quality of music discussion

http://www.for3.org/forums/forum.php

https://classik.forumactif.com/

[Notsure01]

Well put!

As one of the prime culprits in prolonging this (probably pointless)
discussion I'll just anyway try to make a few more points.

I'm not really a newbie to this group, having lurked about here for
probably 15 years - and very occasionally contributed. My avoiding of
participation was due to lack of time certainly, but I also felt that
although I've been collecting classical recordings since the 1960's, my
knowledge of the repertoire and of comparative performances was vastly
inferior compared to many of the regulars here.

We've noticed that just in the last few years many great contributors
have gone missing. The "toxic environment" could be a factor - but we've
now established here there is no clear solution to prevent the insults
and squabbling.

Obviously once there are fewer contributors there will be fewer posts,
so folks will check the group less frequently - and RMCR will become
like rec.music.opera.

One thing I am sure about is that music is an important part of their
life for everyone here, so it would be very sad if we no longer had a
place to help us to discover new performances and to share our delight -
or displeasure.

So what do I suggest? Participate! Fellow lurkers, please don't be
reluctant to post! It took many weeks and numerous posts on my part
until I was finally called a "Rotten Idiot" - and I've survived!

And for the regulars here, please respond with comments to new threads
if you can, particularly those from new participants.(There was a recent
well written, thoughtful thread about Bartok that got little response).

When criticizing my use of the NotSure screen name, Dan made the analogy
of RMCR to a party: "It is considered common courtesy to show one's face
and to introduce oneself when one joins a party (not in the political
sense) or when one
shows up at a meeting or social function".

Let's not make RMCR like one of my parties, where nobody shows up! And
at our RMCR virtual party, as Herman put it: "just behave as you would

[Paul Goodman]

Todd M. McComb <mcc...@medieval.org> wrote:
> In article <0001HW.293E43DA0...@news-central.giganews.com>,
> Paul Goodman <good...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> The few actual moderated newsgroups that were created in the 1980's
>> required the poster to send the article to a separate address first
>> to be "approved" before it was posted. Those no longer exist and
>> would not work in the present environment.
>
> There are still functioning moderated groups. But converting an
> existed group to moderated was long deprecated, and in today's
> Usenet, is definitely not recommended. Most sites would leave the
> group marked as unmoderated.

I stand corrected. It just seemed with the moderated newsgroups I knew of
that the moderation just seemed to stop because the individual involved
either didn’t want to do it anymore or just stoped without any explanation.
In any case, I was never in favor of moderation of this group or any other
usenet group. After rec.music.opera was created, there was a huge debate on
whether it should have been moderated and eventually that debate pretty
much destroyed any discussion on that group.

[Todd M. McComb]

In article <Ru2cnRoNrd-SFhP-...@giganews.com>,

Paul Goodman <no_e...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>It just seemed with the moderated newsgroups I knew of that the
>moderation just seemed to stop because the individual involved
>either didn't want to do it anymore or just stoped without any
>explanation.

Yes, that's basically been the norm. In principle, those groups
could restart, if there were both people who wanted to post there
and someone who wanted to undertake the moderation. It does happen
occasionally....

But as you say, that's not an argument about RMCR.

(I state the previous, just in case there's some real desire
elsewhere....)

[Oscar]

On Monday, December 5, 2022 at 4:05:08 AM, herman wrote:
>
> Which reminds me that I haven't heard from Frank B. (whom I like) in quite a while. I'm hoping all's well with him.

I'm fine, too. Whom you also like.

[Herman]

yes, I do, top user of the word 'hot', thanks for reminding me.