Beethoven: Complete Piano Sonatas / Bernard Roberts on Nimbus -- Opinions
Dr. Lizardo
Sacqueboutier
>
> Wow, this set is cheap -- any opinions on the performances?
The old adage "You gets whut you pays for" applies here.
--
Don Patterson
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The views expressed are my own and in no way
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Matthew B. Tepper
pondered what I'm pondering as follows...
>
>Wow, this set is cheap -- any opinions on the performances?
I haven't heard it, but I'll bet that if you've always wanted to know
how the Beethoven Piano Sonatas would sound if they were played in a
small, tiled bathroom, this would be the way to find out.
--
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Dr. Lizardo
to posting but must have made a typo as I didn't get any hits. I see now
that this subject has been well discussed. In the immortal words of Emily
Latella, "Never mind".
Simon Roberts wrote in message <77gvcg$52f$3...@netnews.upenn.edu>...
>Dr. Lizardo (dr.li...@yoyodyne.com) wrote:
>: Wow, this set is cheap -- any opinions on the performances?
>
>Same as I gave a few days ago; boring performances not particularly well
>played and not well recorded. I found it impossible to listen all the way
>through.... I don't know how much they cost where you are, but I would
>suggest paying the extra for the likes of Heidsieck (dirt cheap on French
>EMI), Perl (Arte Nova) and Nat (EMI again, and mono).
>
>Simon
>
Simon Roberts
PRHLAR
Warfin?
Dr. Lizardo
John Harkness
Simon Roberts wrote:
Maybe we should put it in the FAQ
John
Eric Schissel
Wonderful playing, and the acoustic was fine (pace Ducky, Nimbus doesn't
get it wrong all the time). If the rest of the set was on the level of
that disk, then it's very worth getting.
-Eric Schissel
--
schi...@lightlink.com
http://www.lightlink.com/schissel ICQ#7279016
standard disclaimer
Althair
>suggest paying the extra for the likes of Heidsieck (dirt cheap on French
>EMI), Perl (Arte Nova) and Nat (EMI again, and mono).
>
>Simon
I've been able to find more and more reviews of the Music and Arts set by
Claude Frank from the seventies that imply it's one of the greatest sets ever.
The original review I picked up in Fanfare from 3-4/91 by Timbrell implied as
much, "But I must say tht if you have to choose a complete CD version, I would
not hesitate to put this one before what I ahve heard of those by Ashkenazy,
Barenboim, Brendel, or Nat." A second review from the same period, in American
Record Guide, reviewed 22 currently available sets, and concluded the one to
own was the Claude Frank, "What are the wisest choices among currently
available complete CD packages. . .. The one that reaches an exceptionally high
level, however, and maintains that level with quite amazing consistency, is
Claude Frank." (ARG 7-8/91).
This set has been pick up able at Tower's sale annex several times recently for
a little over fifty bucks for ten discs: if you see it at this price I'd grab
it. I've been enjoying mine, and welcome the group's feedback.
Oh, a side note, about Perl on Arte Nova, I hear his new discs of Chopin
Nocturnes are a steal!
Dimitri Dover
a hearty thanks goes out to you.
Dimitri
vladimir
Althair wrote in message <19990114035022...@ng51.aol.com>...
>
>I've been able to find more and more reviews of the Music and Arts set by
>Claude Frank from the seventies that imply it's one of the greatest sets
ever.
>This set has been pick up able at Tower's sale annex several times recently
for
>a little over fifty bucks for ten discs: if you see it at this price I'd
grab
>it. I've been enjoying mine, and welcome the group's feedback.
>
The set is not useless, but for me it ranks behind, in no particular order,
those
of Ashkenazy, Scnabel, Brendel (Vox), Goode, Perl, Kuert, Annie Fischer and
Kempff (DG). I put it ahead of Nikolayeva's on Frank's technique, not for
his
expressive conceptions.
- Phil Caron
Simon Roberts
: I've been able to find more and more reviews of the Music and Arts set by
: Claude Frank from the seventies that imply it's one of the greatest sets ever.
: The original review I picked up in Fanfare from 3-4/91 by Timbrell implied as
: much, "But I must say tht if you have to choose a complete CD version, I would
: not hesitate to put this one before what I ahve heard of those by Ashkenazy,
: Barenboim, Brendel, or Nat." A second review from the same period, in American
: Record Guide, reviewed 22 currently available sets, and concluded the one to
: own was the Claude Frank, "What are the wisest choices among currently
: available complete CD packages. . .. The one that reaches an exceptionally high
: level, however, and maintains that level with quite amazing consistency, is
: Claude Frank." (ARG 7-8/91).
: This set has been pick up able at Tower's sale annex several times recently for
: a little over fifty bucks for ten discs: if you see it at this price I'd grab
: it. I've been enjoying mine, and welcome the group's feedback.
I like his tough, extrovert, fast interpretations/conceptions overall, but
I find his technique a trifle clumsy at times, and gracefulness
seems to be a quality that doesn't much interest him (or that he can't
quite convey).
: Oh, a side note, about Perl on Arte Nova, I hear his new discs of Chopin
: Nocturnes are a steal!
Are you sure? They already have recordings of the Nocturnes by Riccardo
Castro (which are quite nice but rather bland).
Simon
woo...@prodigy.net
schi...@adore.lightlink.com (Eric Schissel) wrote:
> I used to have the CD in the set with sonatas 2, 24 and 28 (IIRC).
> Wonderful playing, and the acoustic was fine (pace Ducky, Nimbus doesn't
> get it wrong all the time). If the rest of the set was on the level of
> that disk, then it's very worth getting.
> -Eric Schissel
I don't understand why people bash this set so much. Well, I do
understand...most haven't heard it. I have one disk from it (including a fine
recording of the Pastorale). The world isn't set on fire by the playing, but
the sound is quite natural...certainly better then many airless
mike-under-the-lid recordings I've heard. It received a very positive review
in the Penguin Guide (but of course! Roberts is British!). But Jeno Jando on
Naxos might be a better bet, and only costs a bit more.
Tom Wood
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John Harkness
woo...@prodigy.net wrote:
> In article <369d9...@news2.lightlink.com>,
> schi...@adore.lightlink.com (Eric Schissel) wrote:
> > I used to have the CD in the set with sonatas 2, 24 and 28 (IIRC).
> > Wonderful playing, and the acoustic was fine (pace Ducky, Nimbus doesn't
> > get it wrong all the time). If the rest of the set was on the level of
> > that disk, then it's very worth getting.
> > -Eric Schissel
>
> I don't understand why people bash this set so much. Well, I do
> understand...most haven't heard it. I have one disk from it (including a fine
> recording of the Pastorale). The world isn't set on fire by the playing, but
> the sound is quite natural...certainly better then many airless
> mike-under-the-lid recordings I've heard.
Okay, then. Would you rather listen to Roberts or Richter? Arrau? Ashkenazy? The
first Barenboim set on EMI? Either Kempff set? Goode? Yves Nat? Price aside,
there are certain things that are worth paying for.
John
vladimir
How many complete sets are there anyway? I think there were
three Kempff sets, there are three Brendel, I think two Arrau,
two Backhauses, now I see there are (at least) two Barenboims,
not to mention Fischer, Goode, Frank, Nat, Ashkenazy (just one?)
Schnabel, Roberts, Perl, Jando, Kuerti, Grinberg, Nikolayeva . . . . .
Can we come up with a "complete" list?
- Phil Caron
Edward dimitri Kennaway
>In article <369d9...@news2.lightlink.com>,
> schi...@adore.lightlink.com (Eric Schissel) wrote:
>> I used to have the CD in the set with sonatas 2, 24 and 28 (IIRC).
>> Wonderful playing, and the acoustic was fine (pace Ducky, Nimbus doesn't
>> get it wrong all the time). If the rest of the set was on the level of
>> that disk, then it's very worth getting.
>> -Eric Schissel
>
>I don't understand why people bash this set so much. Well, I do
>understand...most haven't heard it. I have one disk from it (including a fine
>recording of the Pastorale). The world isn't set on fire by the playing, but
>the sound is quite natural...certainly better then many airless
>in the Penguin Guide (but of course! Roberts is British!). But Jeno Jando on
>Naxos might be a better bet, and only costs a bit more.
IIRC, the thing which was particularly unusual about the
Bernard Roberts - in the era of magnetic tape recording at least - was
that he recorded the complete cycle direct-to-disc, so there was no
editing. Perhaps he was not the best candidate to undertake this but
at least it gives an air of realism to the recordings.
EDK
David Hillman
:
:How many complete sets are there anyway? I think there were
:
:
There are only two complete set by Kempff (DG 50s and 60s). For Backhaus,
there is only one complete one. He did not record Hammerklavier in stereo.
regards,
Dimitri Dover
>
> How many complete sets are there anyway? I think there were
> three Kempff sets, there are three Brendel, I think two Arrau,
Only one Arrau. Opp. 27/2 and 106 are missing in the late digital rec's.
(And the EMI "set" contains less than half of them).
Dimitri
vladimir
Dimitri Dover wrote in message <36A0DA...@fas.harvard.edu>...
Thanks for the clarification. Is there a good discography somewhere for
Arrau? I note IPQ's strongly disapproving review of the new discography
book by Hunt, which includes Arrau along with others - that sounds like a
poor source.
- Phil Caron
vladimir
David Hillman wrote in message <77qmpb$h5j$1...@usenet01.srv.cis.pitt.edu>...
>:
>:How many complete sets are there anyway? I think there were
>:three Kempff sets, there are three Brendel, I think two Arrau,
>:not to mention Fischer, Goode, Frank, Nat, Ashkenazy (just one?)
>:Schnabel, Roberts, Perl, Jando, Kuerti, Grinberg, Nikolayeva . . . . .
>:
:
>
>there is only one complete one. He did not record Hammerklavier in stereo.
>
Thanks for the info - I thought I'd read otherwise in this group sometime
in the past, but then I've got a memory like a steel sieve.
- Phil Caron
Eric Schissel
>woo...@prodigy.net wrote:
>> In article <369d9...@news2.lightlink.com>,
>> schi...@adore.lightlink.com (Eric Schissel) wrote:
>> > I used to have the CD in the set with sonatas 2, 24 and 28 (IIRC).
>> > Wonderful playing, and the acoustic was fine (pace Ducky, Nimbus doesn't
>> > get it wrong all the time). If the rest of the set was on the level of
>> > that disk, then it's very worth getting.
>> > -Eric Schissel
>>
>> I don't understand why people bash this set so much. Well, I do
>> understand...most haven't heard it. I have one disk from it (including a fine
>> recording of the Pastorale). The world isn't set on fire by the playing, but
>> the sound is quite natural...certainly better then many airless
>> mike-under-the-lid recordings I've heard.
>Okay, then. Would you rather listen to Roberts or Richter? Arrau? Ashkenazy? The
>first Barenboim set on EMI? Either Kempff set? Goode? Yves Nat? Price aside,
>there are certain things that are worth paying for.
>John
<partial sarcasm>
Ah. Then you agree with me that there should be, from now on, a complete
and utter moratorium on recordings of Beethoven symphonies, string
quartets, and piano sonatas, Brahms symphonies and piano trios (the string
quartets haven't been done quite right yet <;)>), and all the works of the
standard repertoire that have been done to a tear by the greats of the
past? After all, Richter and Arrau are dead, Barenboim's already done his
first set and isn't doing another first set by definition, Kempff's
dead... no use doing another Beethoven sonata set. Perhaps that valuable
CD space could be saved for the symphonies of Havergal Brian, Vagn
Holmboe, the less-done Haydn ones (like 76), Eduard Tubin, Allan
Pettersson, and others. Excellent idea! Glad we see eye to eye.
</partial sarcasm>
Really, are you at all serious? Does a recording have to be as good as
Richter, Ashkenazy, Barenboim 1, Nat, Kempff, ... to have something to say
and be worth buying? (Although, frankly, I .am. a little pissed that
there are so many complete Beethoven cycles and not even one complete
Brian one, let alone 100, even though I agree that the Beethoven sonatas
are greater works- just not by the leaps and bounds that that fact would
imply.)
I can see analogy is not going to work here...
John Harkness
Eric Schissel wrote:
YES! As good or better. Otherwise it's just taking up shelf space.
John
MT
>> Really, are you at all serious? Does a recording have to be as good as Richter, Ashkenazy, Barenboim 1, Nat, Kempff, ... to have something to say and be worth buying?<<
John Harkness:
<<YES! As good or better. Otherwise it's just taking up shelf space.>>
In a sense, I agree with John. For good or worse, the formidable
competition in the standard repertoire from the giants of the past is
there and very present indeed. This is not to say that someone has to be
as good as Schnabel in order to present Beethoven or Schubert on
records, but that they should only record such music when they have
something interesting to say about it. Likewise, a string quartet should
only record the Haydn quartets if it has a chance to compete with the
Tatrai series. Otherwise, they are fighting a losing battle from the
outset.
Fewer recordings of standard repertoire, only by artists who are up to
the task, and more recordings of underrepresented repertoire. Gidon
Kremer, the foremost violinist of our time, has realized this and has
been recording great but virtually unknown stuff. So has Hamelin. This
is the way to go, I think.
Regards,
mt
Dimitri Dover
> >>
> >> How many complete sets are there anyway? I think there were
> >> three Kempff sets, there are three Brendel, I think two Arrau,
> >
> >(And the EMI "set" contains less than half of them).
> >
>
> Thanks for the clarification. Is there a good discography somewhere for
> Arrau? I note IPQ's strongly disapproving review of the new discography
> book by Hunt, which includes Arrau along with others - that sounds like a
> poor source.
>
The one in the back of Joseph Horowitz's "Conservations" is very comprehensive
and good through 1981. However, it does not contain CD releases (obviously)
and is missing the Bach Goldbergs, Chromatic F&F, and 6 inventions he recorded
for RCA in the 1940s, the Ravel "Ondine" and "Gibet" he put down for Columbia in 1949,
and a few live performances since released on various labels. If you're
interested in his digital recordings or any CD releases, e-mail me and I can give
you more info.
Dimitri
Eric Schissel
.absolutely. sure he understood the implications of what he was saying.
Those implications are such a potential boon to such as me who want to see
more recordings of Holmboe's fantastic string quartets, for instance... ;)
John Harkness
David R L Porter wrote:
> The message <36A11B07...@netcom.ca>
> from John Harkness <j...@netcom.ca> contains these words:
>
> > > Really, are you at all serious? Does a recording have to be as good as
> > > Richter, Ashkenazy, Barenboim 1, Nat, Kempff, ... to have something to say
> > > and be worth buying?
>
> > YES! As good or better. Otherwise it's just taking up shelf space.
>
> A bit intimidating, surely, if you're a young pianist just starting
> out making your first CD and you've got to be better than that lot to
> justify the exercise ...
>
> I think there is a lot to be said for relatively unknown performers
> who have something to say but aren't among the greats. I happily pay
> to hear them at concerts, and often the CDs cost less than the
> concert tickets. whether they're just consuming shelf space depends
> on how much you enjoy them and how often you play them, which can be
> quite a lot.
> --
> Best wishes,
>
> David.
> david....@zetnet.co.uk
Well, if I'm choosing what to play when I want to hear the Appasionata or the
Hammerklavier, I'm going to Richter more often than not, sometimes Nat or
Brendel.
(though I did, come to think of it, hear a superb Hammerklavier this year from a
young French pianist on Harmonia Mundi this year -- genuine intensity, great grasp
of the fugue -- what was his name again?)
I go on frequent culls of my collection -- it's that or move -- and when I get
down past a certain level, I just have to ask myself how many recordings of
whatever I need to keep.
It doesn't happen with all standard rep -- I'm still in search of a great digital
Franck D-minor, and great digital recordings of the Brahms Piano Concertos -- but
you've got to be awfully damned good in Beethoven or Mozart to make me want to
keep you on my shelves. You're basically pushing a great off his or her space on
my shelf.
John
David R L Porter
John Grabowski
First, Arrau doesn't have two Beethoven cycles, just one. He never
quite finished that last one before he went off to that greaet big piano
in the sky.
Two:
Dimitri Dover wrote:
>
> vladimir wrote:
> > Thanks for the clarification. Is there a good discography somewhere for
> > Arrau? I note IPQ's strongly disapproving review of the new discography
> > book by Hunt, which includes Arrau along with others - that sounds like a
> > poor source.
> >
>
> The one in the back of Joseph Horowitz's "Conservations" is very comprehensive
> and good through 1981. However, it does not contain CD releases (obviously)
> and is missing the Bach Goldbergs, Chromatic F&F, and 6 inventions he recorded
> for RCA in the 1940s, the Ravel "Ondine" and "Gibet" he put down for Columbia in 1949,
> and a few live performances since released on various labels. If you're
> interested in his digital recordings or any CD releases, e-mail me and I can give
> you more info.
The revised version of the Horowitz book contains material later than
1981 and mentions many later efforts. But it's moot in a way, since the
book is out of print.
John
--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
The great man is he who in the midst of the crowd keeps with perfect
sweetness the independence of solitude.
Ralph Waldo Emerson
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
samir ghiocel golescu
<<The one in the back of Joseph Horowitz's "Conservations" is very
comprehensive>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Now that's what I call an unfair atack on J. Horowitz(-:
[just kidding]
BTW, I seldom read a book of conversations with an interpreter to
be so substantial, well written and centered on matters of authentic
musical interest.
How would you evaluate Arrau's Goldberg Variations?
S.G.
samir ghiocel golescu
On Sun, 17 Jan 1999, samir ghiocel golescu wrote:
> BTW, I seldom read a book of conversations with an interpreter to
> be so substantial, well written and centered on matters of authentic
> musical interest.
There are some years since I read the book... what did Arrau have to say
about T.?
Dimitri Dover
From what I remember, he acknowledged the "sound, rhythm, precision" of his
conducting, but found his interpretations lacking in empathy (I think that
was the word he used). He heard T. live several times, and liked
nothing except Wagner -- don't remember what, though. Doubtless there were
more inflammatory remarks, but I don't have the book on hand.
Dimitri
Dimitri Dover
>
> <<The one in the back of Joseph Horowitz's "Conservations" is very
> comprehensive>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> Now that's what I call an unfair atack on J. Horowitz(-:
> [just kidding]
> be so substantial, well written and centered on matters of authentic
> musical interest.
>
I haven't listened to them in a while, but I remember very clear, sober, rhythmic
(though not necessarily slow) playing. He uses very little pedal as far as I could tell,
and takes all repeats. To tell you the truth, I haven't heard very many versions of
this, but from what I remember, I could imagine more "imaginitive" a performance.
What did you think of it? If you've heard it, that is.
As for "Conversations" -- yes, I agree it is a great book. Very well written by
Horowitz, though I wish he had those "conversations" a bit earlier in Arrau's
life, when he was said to be more gregarious.
Dimitri
Tripletz
Simon Roberts
: Has the Arrau sonata cycle been reissued? I've looked for it.
Yes. It's in various stores in the northeast U.S. as a Polygram import.
The new package contains the sonatas, the Diabelli etc., the piano
concertos and the triple concerto. Costs c. $115, if I remember right.
Simon