OT: What does Her Majesty say about this?

[Dan Koren]

https://news.google.com/stories/CAAqNggKIjBDQklTSGpvSmMzUnZjbmt0TXpZd1NoRUtEd2lVNTVfTkJCSDU5WmZ3LVlRMFNpZ0FQAQ

dk

[Frank Berger]

On 1/5/2022 5:36 AM, Dan Koren wrote:
> https://news.google.com/stories/CAAqNggKIjBDQklTSGpvSmMzUnZjbmt0TXpZd1NoRUtEd2lVNTVfTkJCSDU5WmZ3LVlRMFNpZ0FQAQ
>
> dk


Her Majesty's a pretty nice girl, but she doesn't have a lot to say.

[Dan Koren]

On Wednesday, January 5, 2022 at 9:32:08 AM UTC-5, Frank Berger wrote:
> On 1/5/2022 5:36 AM, Dan Koren wrote:
> > https://news.google.com/stories/CAAqNggKIjBDQklTSGpvSmMzUnZjbmt0TXpZd1NoRUtEd2lVNTVfTkJCSDU5WmZ3LVlRMFNpZ0FQAQ
>

> Her Majesty's a pretty nice girl,
> but she doesn't have a lot to say.

Sticking her head in the sand?

dk

[Frank Berger]

She changes from day to day.

[Dan Koren]

> She changes from day to day.

Monarchs are expected to rule
with a steady hand. Britain has
lost its soul! ;-)

dk

[Frank Berger]

I want to tell her that I love her a lot.

[gggg gggg]

On Wednesday, January 5, 2022 at 12:36:38 AM UTC-10, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> https://news.google.com/stories/CAAqNggKIjBDQklTSGpvSmMzUnZjbmt0TXpZd1NoRUtEd2lVNTVfTkJCSDU5WmZ3LVlRMFNpZ0FQAQ
>
> dk

https://www.express.co.uk/news/royal/1543762/prince-andrew-virginia-roberts-giuffre-jeffrey-epstein-queen-platinum-jubilee-spt

[gggg gggg]

On Wednesday, January 5, 2022 at 12:36:38 AM UTC-10, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> https://news.google.com/stories/CAAqNggKIjBDQklTSGpvSmMzUnZjbmt0TXpZd1NoRUtEd2lVNTVfTkJCSDU5WmZ3LVlRMFNpZ0FQAQ
>
> dk

https://giphy.com/gifs/queen-not-amused-the-o5mRxg8xPTJRu

[Andrew Clarke]

Given that Buckingham Palace is said to be a hotbed of British upper-class antisemitism - oft asserted, rarely demonstrated - I think the participants in this debate should be aware of problems much closer to home.

From Le Monde:

"Pierre Birnbaum : « La vallée des larmes de l’histoire juive s’étend jusqu’à la société américaine »
L’historien propose, dans « Les Larmes de l’histoire » (Gallimard), une histoire érudite et passionnante de l’antisémitisme aux Etats-Unis. Dans un entretien au « Monde », il dit craindre que la montée en puissance de la droite suprémaciste n’aggrave ce phénomène.

Pierre Birnbaum, historien. YANN LEGENDRE
Longtemps, les juifs américains ont cru échapper aux tragédies de l’histoire juive. La montée en puissance d’une droite suprémaciste et la fréquence croissante des actes antisémites mettent à mal ces certitudes, comme l’explique l’historien Pierre Birnbaum dans son livre Les Larmes de l’histoire. De Kichinev à Pittsburgh (Gallimard, 208 pages, 18,50 euros).

Le rêve américain des juifs est-il ébranlé?
Le choc de l’attentat dans une synagogue de Pittsburgh, le 27 octobre 2018, a été immense. Le tueur Robert Gregory Bowers, hurlant des « Heil Hitler », a tué onze fidèles et en a blessé de nombreux autres. L’émotion a gagné tout le pays, et au-delà. Depuis, les synagogues et institutions juives se barricadent, élèvent des murs protecteurs, louent les services de gardes, du jamais-vu dans l’histoire paisible des petites communautés juives, perdues dans les banlieues, au plus profond des Etats-Unis. La mémoire des pogroms subis par les grands-parents ou les arrière-grands-parents transmise sans cesse ressurgit intacte. Dans cet imaginaire, les cosaques du pogrom de Kichinev, en Russie [1903], ont traversé l’Atlantique. La peur s’installe à tel point que, pour la première fois depuis un demi-siècle, près de 5 000 juifs américains sont partis en 2021 en Israël.


Le judaïsme américain s’était-il cru préservé des tragédies de l’histoire juive ?
Salo Baron, le premier professeur juif nommé à l’université Columbia en 1930, affirmait que l’histoire juive n’est pas nécessairement synonyme de larmes, de massacres, de pogroms. Après la Shoah, il en vient pourtant à reconnaître qu’elle est bel et bien, depuis deux mille ans, une vallée de larmes. Il devint alors le chantre de l’exceptionnalisme américain, une société décentralisée où le shtetl [village juif d’Europe de l’Est] peut revivre dans un environnement démocratique et pluraliste.

Les Pères fondateurs se sont vécus comme les nouveaux Hébreux ayant échappé à l’emprise du « pharaon » anglais en franchissant l’Atlantique pour atteindre la Terre sainte et instaurer, grâce à la Constitution de 1787, une entière liberté de conscience et de religion, une séparation de l’Etat et des religions propice à l’épanouissement de ces dernières.

Est-ce là le fondement de l’exceptionnalisme américain sur la question juive ?
Oui. « Que les enfants de la lignée d’Abraham qui demeurent dans ce pays continuent à bénéficier de la bonne volonté des autres habitants tandis que chacun d’entre eux s’assoira en toute sécurité sous son arbre de vin et de figues et que personne ne pourra l’inquiéter », affirme George Washington en 1790, citant mot pour mot l’Ancien Testament. Dans ce sens, le rêve américain, du moins dans cette version « en rose », repose sur le pluralisme, un pluralisme qui ne s’étend malheureusement pas aux millions d’Indiens et de Noirs, massacrés ou tenus en esclavage. Un rêve américain qui ne tient pas non plus toutes ses promesses, puisque nombre d’Etats vont longtemps refuser cette séparation de l’Etat et des religions qui permet aux juifs d’accéder, comme en France depuis 1791, aux emplois publics.

Les préjugés sociaux antijuifs restaient-ils très vifs ?
Les juifs restèrent en effet longtemps exclus de nombreux hôtels, de clubs, des cercles mondains et même des universités de l’Ivy League [les huit plus anciennes et prestigieuses universités du nord-est des Etats-Unis] où des quotas ont été en vigueur jusqu’à la moitié du XXe siècle, alors que les grandes écoles françaises sont ouvertes depuis 1789 à tous les citoyens sur une base méritocratique. L’antisémitisme social et les préjugés survivent, qui excluent les juifs ou d’autres minorités tels les Italiens ou les Irlandais de l’Amérique WASP [White Anglo-Saxon Protestant]. Mais le Nouveau Continent n’a pas connu les affrontements qui ont déchiré les sociétés européennes. La guerre de Sécession [1861-1865] reste l’unique guerre des deux Amérique, alors que les guerres des deux France, durant lesquelles les juifs se trouvent souvent pris en otage, ponctuent l’histoire de l’Hexagone.

Le lynchage à Atlanta, en 1915, de Leo Frank, un chef d’entreprise juif, a été un profond traumatisme, comparable à celui de l’affaire Dreyfus. Pourquoi ?
Leo Frank, un notable juif d’Atlanta bien intégré à la société, responsable d’une usine, se trouve accusé d’avoir violenté et tué une jeune ouvrière, Mary Phagan, en 1913. L’affaire prend une dimension nationale, des procès se succèdent, jusqu’aux recours devant la Cour suprême. Alors qu’aucune preuve ne figure dans le dossier, Frank est condamné à la peine de mort. Un Edouard Drumont local attise les rumeurs, dénonce le complot juif qui s’attaque aux femmes chrétiennes. La foule s’agite, comme à l’époque en Europe. En 1915, alors que le gouverneur de Géorgie décide de commuer sa peine en prison à perpétuité par manque de preuves, Frank est brutalement extrait de la prison où il est détenu et pendu par une foule en colère qui mutile son corps. L’émotion submerge le pays.

Il s’agit du premier et unique lynchage d’un juif aux Etats-Unis, alors que plusieurs milliers de Noirs américains subissent ce sort effroyable. En France, l’Etat fort a protégé l’intégrité physique d’Alfred Dreyfus et la Cour de cassation a fini par l’innocenter. Aux Etats-Unis, l’Etat fédéral n’a pas pu intervenir, Leo Frank a été lynché par une foule de « voisins » déchaînés et son innocence se trouve encore parfois mise en doute de nos jours.

Est-ce un tournant ?
L’émotion ne va jamais disparaître. Le rêve américain serait-il un leurre ? L’affaire Leo Frank se limite-t-elle au Sud profond et réactionnaire ? Est-ce un « accident » sans lendemain ? Dans les années 1930 surgit un autre type d’antisémitisme, dans les grandes villes industrialisées cette fois, comme réaction au New Deal, mis en place par Roosevelt et appréhendé comme un « Jew Deal » par des ligues antisémites en contact direct avec les nazis en Allemagne. Du Sud profond à l’antijudaïsme latent, on passe à l’antisémitisme politique à la française avec la dénonciation de la « République juive » – l’Etat qui se renforce afin de construire un welfare state, un Etat-providence, est supposé être occupé par les juifs. Les Etats-Unis vivent à leur tour un autre moment antisémite de grande ampleur, mais celui-ci ne fait pas de mort. Cette fois, ce qui est mis en avant est le mythe de la « République juive », inventé dans la France de l’affaire Dreyfus et ressuscité dans la République de Weimar par les nazis, dont la propagande se déverse alors aussi aux Etats-Unis.

Cette haine antisémite continue-t-elle même après la guerre ?
Elle ne cessera jamais, influençant des groupuscules d’extrême droite qui brandissent Mein Kampf et, au nom de la suprématie de l’homme blanc, s’attaquent aux Noirs américains et aux juifs. Année après année, à partir de 1958, ce sont des synagogues et des institutions juives qui sont incendiées. C’est le cœur de l’Amérique, et non le Sud, qui se trouve touché. A Saint-Louis [1977], Denver [1984], Pittsburgh [1986], Los Angeles [1999], Pittsburgh à nouveau [2000] ou Seattle [2006], des juifs sont assassinés. Des projets comme celui des Turner Diaries [Les Carnets de Turner, ouvrage interdit en France], rédigés par William Pierce [1933-2002], un membre du Parti national-socialiste du peuple blanc, dessinent les frontières d’un Etat aryen. « Si notre organisation l’emporte, aucun juif ne survivra, nulle part », clame cette « bible » de l’alt-right, qui prévoit la mort de millions de juifs et de Noirs américains.

Depuis la présidence de Donald Trump (2017-2021), la situation n’a fait que s’aggraver. Comment ?
Barack Obama [président démocrate des Etats-Unis de 2009 à 2017] était déjà dénoncé comme l’agent des juifs destructeurs de la société chrétienne, mais le mouvement a pris de l’ampleur avec l’élection de Donald Trump. Celui-ci s’inspire de cette même vision et incite ses partisans antisémites membres du Tea Party, du Klan, du National Socialist Party [néonazi], des Proud Boys, des Confederate White Knights et tant d’autres, qui citent pêle-mêle les idées de Hitler ou celle du « grand remplacement », à passer à l’action. Depuis le drame de Pittsburgh, en octobre 2018, d’autres synagogues ont été attaquées, en Californie ou dans l’Etat de New York. C’est l’Amérique de la globalisation, que les droites radicales associent à la modernité et à la domination capitaliste juive, qui se trouve visée.

Ces groupes dénoncent le « Zionist Occupation Government » [« le gouvernement d’occupation sioniste »] installé à Washington et, lors de la prise du Capitole en janvier 2021, certains assaillants portaient des pulls sur lesquels on pouvait lire « 6MWE » pour « 6 millions wasn’t enough » [« 6 millions ne suffisaient pas », en référence au nombre de juifs tués par les nazis]. Ils sont résolus à passer à l’action contre le gouvernement démocrate de Joe Biden, qui s’est entouré, comme Roosevelt ou Obama avant lui, de quelques secrétaires d’Etat juifs, faisant ressurgir leur haine d’un Etat fédéral contre lequel se lève un antisémitisme brutal.

Dans votre livre, vous exprimez votre pessimisme. Sur quoi vous fondez-vous ?
Cette fois, contrairement aux espoirs de Salo Baron, la vallée des larmes semble bien devoir s’étendre jusqu’à la société américaine. A Pittsburgh, avec le massacre à la synagogue d’octobre 2018, comme à Toulouse, en France, lors de la tuerie à l’école juive Ozar-Hatorah commise par Mohammed Merah en mars 2012, le passage à l’acte mortel marque une étape décisive remettant quelque peu en question les deux exceptionnalismes. Des deux côtés de l’Atlantique, on tue des juifs. Une nouveauté inimaginable aux Etats-Unis mais aussi en France, où de tels meurtres ne se sont jamais produits à l’époque moderne, en dehors de Vichy.

Aux Etats-Unis comme en France, des mobilisations populistes radicales charriant leurs préjugés antisémites se lèvent, tandis qu’en France surtout, les retombées des conflits du Proche-Orient provoquent à leur tour nombre d’attentats antisémites mortels. Ce sont autant de drames qui font douter, ici ou là, de la protection de l’Etat et rendent soudain incertaine, davantage encore dans la France centralisée qu’aux Etats-Unis, l’intégration à la nation. L’avenir s’annonce donc périlleux pour chacune des « deux maisons » qui concentrent de nos jours la plus grande partie du judaïsme diasporique."

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

[Andrew Clarke]

On Sunday, January 9, 2022 at 1:16:27 PM UTC+11, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, January 8, 2022 at 5:36:43 AM UTC-5, andrewc...@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> > From Le Monde:
>
> I have not been to France in a
> quite long time, and I have no
> plans to visit as long as I can
> get French wine in cheese in
> US at lower than EU prices.
>
> I am also terrified at by the
> thought of accidentally
> meeting Melmoth!
>
> Vive la France!
>
> dk

Le Monde also reports that the Drancy housing estate is still in use to accommodate low-income tenants, although it is looking distinctly run down. I'm not sure i could walk past the cattle truck on a a short length of track which serves as a memorial to its previous use.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

[Frank Berger]

I am SHOCKED! SHOCKED! that anti-semitism and racism and ethnocentrism and other nasty isms have existed and still exist in the United States. Shocked I say.

[Dan Koren]

On Saturday, January 8, 2022 at 5:36:43 AM UTC-5, andrewc...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> From Le Monde:

I have not been to France in a
quite long time, and I have no
plans to visit as long as I can

buy French wine and cheese
in the US below EU prices.

[Frank Berger]

I am curious about why French products would be cheaper in the U.S. Is it that the EU slaps on a tax form EU member countries that is higher than any import duties charged by the U.S. ?

[Dan Koren]

On Monday, January 10, 2022 at 10:10:05 AM UTC-5, Frank Berger wrote:
> On 1/10/2022 5:01 AM, Dan Koren wrote:
> > On Saturday, January 8, 2022 at 5:36:43 AM UTC-5, andrewc...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>
> >> From Le Monde:
> >
> > I have not been to France in a
> > quite long time, and I have no
> > plans to visit as long as I can
> > buy French wine and cheese
> > in the US below EU prices.
> >
> > I am also terrified at by the
> > thought of accidentally
> > meeting Melmoth!
> >
> > Vive la France!
>

> I am curious about why French products
> would be cheaper in the U.S.

Exchange rates, volume discounts,
advance purchases, future contracts.

> Is it that the EU slaps on a tax form
> EU member countries that is higher
> than any import duties charged by
> the U.S. ?

Possibly, for some products.

dk

[gggg gggg]

On Wednesday, January 5, 2022 at 2:36:38 AM UTC-8, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> https://news.google.com/stories/CAAqNggKIjBDQklTSGpvSmMzUnZjbmt0TXpZd1NoRUtEd2lVNTVfTkJCSDU5WmZ3LVlRMFNpZ0FQAQ
>
> dk

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/jan/12/lawsuit-is-devastating-blow-for-prince-andrew-and-the-royal-family

[Dan Koren]

On Wednesday, January 12, 2022 at 4:04:16 PM UTC-5, gggg gggg wrote:
> On Wednesday, January 5, 2022 at 2:36:38 AM UTC-8, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> > https://news.google.com/stories/CAAqNggKIjBDQklTSGpvSmMzUnZjbmt0TXpZd1NoRUtEd2lVNTVfTkJCSDU5WmZ3LVlRMFNpZ0FQAQ
>

> https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/jan/12/lawsuit-is-devastating-blow-for-prince-andrew-and-the-royal-family

As the Queen likes to say,
"Sentence first, verdict afterwards!" ;-)

dk

[gggg gggg]

On Wednesday, January 5, 2022 at 2:36:38 AM UTC-8, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> https://news.google.com/stories/CAAqNggKIjBDQklTSGpvSmMzUnZjbmt0TXpZd1NoRUtEd2lVNTVfTkJCSDU5WmZ3LVlRMFNpZ0FQAQ
>

> dk

https://www.cnn.com/2022/01/13/uk/prince-andrew-military-titles-charities-intl-gbr/index.html

[Dan Koren]

On Thursday, January 13, 2022 at 1:47:09 PM UTC-5, gggg gggg wrote:
> On Wednesday, January 5, 2022 at 2:36:38 AM UTC-8, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> > https://news.google.com/stories/CAAqNggKIjBDQklTSGpvSmMzUnZjbmt0TXpZd1NoRUtEd2lVNTVfTkJCSDU5WmZ3LVlRMFNpZ0FQAQ
>

> https://www.cnn.com/2022/01/13/uk/prince-andrew-military-titles-charities-intl-gbr/index.html

Good start, but did she
also take away his toys?

dk

[Frank Berger]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mh1hKt5kQ_4

[Dan Koren]

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mh1hKt5kQ_4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bC4RFY8vtuM

dk

[Dan Koren]

England is long overdue for a revolution.
They haven't had one since 1649!

dk

[Frank Berger]

Would there be a point to overthrowing the monarchy?

[Andy Evans]

On Thursday, 13 January 2022 at 22:50:45 UTC, Frank Berger wrote:

> Would there be a point to overthrowing the monarchy?

If it resulted in a President as bad as Trump, then the answer would be a very loud "No"......

[Frank Berger]

You may not have noticed that the monarchy doesn't wield any real power and that Great Britain has had a civilian government, headed by a Prime Minister, for many years. Please write us an essay on whether Boris Johnson is as bad as Trump. For full credit you must include your reasoning why or why not. Thanks. For extra credit explain in what ways the U.S. is better off now than it was under Trump. Biden being a nicer guy (assuming he is) than Trump doesn't count.

[Andrew Clarke]

There is renewed talk of Australia becoming a republic, led by an elderly gentleman generally photographed wearing a red bandanna. What nobody seems to want is a directly elected president. I think the razzamatazz surrounding US presidential elections may be an influencing factor. Australians already vote in local, state and federal elections, sometimes more than once given that there are separate half-senate elections, bye-elections and that most States have bicameral legislatures. We get the occasional plebiscite and referendum too.
The model proposed by the Bandanna'd One is for a candidate to be decided by a majority of the Federal House and Senate siting in joint session who would then be adopted/rejected by the electorate in what would amount to a plebiscite. The candidate, if elected, would have almost exactly the same powers as the present Governor-General. The GG nominally consults Buckingham Palace, but the last time we had a constitutional crisis, in 1975, Buckingham Palace told the then GG that the HM the Queen of Australia felt that this was internal Australian matter and that he should act as he saw fit, which he accordingly did.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

[Owen]

They did have a limited one in 1776, but it was confined to several of
the lesser colonies.

-Owen

[Dan Koren]

Doesn't count.

dk

[Alan Dawes]

In article <ab299f92-017f-4b38...@googlegroups.com>,

I had to smile when I read in the Guardian this morning that the only
military "title" he has been allowed to retain is "VICE" admiral - very
appropriate!

Alan

--
alan....@argonet.co.uk
alan....@riscos.org
Using an ARMX6

[Andy Evans]

On Friday, 14 January 2022 at 00:04:57 UTC, Frank Berger wrote:
Please write us an essay on whether Boris Johnson is as bad as Trump. For full credit you must include your reasoning why or why not. Thanks. For extra credit explain in what ways the U.S. is better off now than it was under Trump. Biden being a nicer guy (assuming he is) than Trump doesn't count.>>

How can you even start comparing the UK and the USA? We have parliamentary parties that cover the full spectrum from the Greens to the Conservatives, and we are not a heavily weaponised society where guns are freely available in shops and mass killings are routine.

The Conservatives are nowhere near the right wing elements of the Republicans, the Proud Boys, the Oath Keepers and the rest of the ultra right trash, and they don't storm our parliament when they lose elections. The Conservative party supports democratic elections, tight gun control laws and is active on climate change. Trump, in contrast, withdrew from the Climate Accord which in itself makes the USA an enemy of human life on earth. The Republican party is the work of the Devil and will destroy anything good about the USA if it regains power, which it is trying its best to manipulate in any way possible without regard for established democratic institutions and voting procedures. The party is also an international danger, having destroyed any progress with Iran on nuclear deals.

If the USA continues to obstruct progress on climate change I sincerely hope that Europe will start imposing appropriate sanctions. Withdrawing from Climate Accords which are indispensable for our future on earth is unforgivable and must be called out in the clearest possible way.

[Dan Koren]

On Friday, January 14, 2022 at 6:46:53 AM UTC-5, Andy Evans wrote:
>
> How can you even start comparing the UK and the USA?

They don't even speak the same language!

And one drives on the left while the other
drives on the right! ;-)

dk

[HT]

Op vrijdag 14 januari 2022 om 12:46:53 UTC+1 schreef Andy Evans:

<g> Europe cannot and won't do anything at all, certainly not after Brexit.

Henk

[Andy Evans]

On Friday, 14 January 2022 at 12:55:41 UTC, hvt...@xs4all.nl wrote:
> > If the USA continues to obstruct progress on climate change I sincerely hope that Europe will start imposing appropriate sanctions. Withdrawing from Climate Accords which are indispensable for our future on earth is unforgivable and must be called out in the clearest possible way.
>
<g> Europe cannot and won't do anything at all, certainly not after Brexit.
> > Henk

Unfortunately I think you are right - but only right at the present time. The climate will soon deteriorate to the point where radical measures will have to be taken and all bets are off as to how politics and politicians will react.

[HT]

Op vrijdag 14 januari 2022 om 14:07:33 UTC+1 schreef Andy Evans:

I agree with the qualification: "all bets are off as to how".

Henk

[Frank Berger]

You seem to have overlooked that most Republicans don't identify with Proud Boys, Oath Keepers, etc. A minor point, to a U.S. basher.

[Andy Evans]

On Friday, 14 January 2022 at 14:47:21 UTC, Frank Berger wrote:
> On 1/14/2022 6:46 AM, Andy Evans wrote:
> > On Friday, 14 January 2022 at 00:04:57 UTC, Frank Berger wrote:
> > Please write us an essay on whether Boris Johnson is as bad as Trump.
> >

> You seem to have overlooked that most Republicans don't identify with Proud Boys, Oath Keepers, etc. A minor point, to a U.S. basher.

You yourself asked for a comparison between Boris and Trump, and Trump did nothing to disown himself from the Proud Boys and the Oath Keepers. On the contrary, he saw them as useful tools in his manipulations. So if you identify with Trump this carries with it an endorsement of how he used the far right.

This is probably the most serious moment in history for the USA, and what they do on climate change is critical. It is unbelievable that the Republicans are continuing to endorse not only one of the worst if not the worst president in the history of the USA, when it carries with it the threat of leaving crucial Climate Accords. If you can't see this you have your head in the sand.

I am not a USA basher. I am highly critical of the way the country is flooded with guns and the pathetic excuses of the Republicans to excuse this, I am highly critical of the way the Republicans have denied the poor and disadvantaged proper healthcare and I am highly critical of the way Trump blocked progress on climate change. I could throw some more things into the pot. But the USA has achieved great things in many ways - this is undeniable. As for bashing the Republican party, that is not likely to change, and the way the party is behaving right now is worse than ever. They really have lost the plot.

[Frank Berger]

One drive on the right and one on the wrong.

[Frank Berger]

On 1/14/2022 11:06 AM, Andy Evans wrote:
> On Friday, 14 January 2022 at 14:47:21 UTC, Frank Berger wrote:
>> On 1/14/2022 6:46 AM, Andy Evans wrote:
>>> On Friday, 14 January 2022 at 00:04:57 UTC, Frank Berger wrote:
>>> Please write us an essay on whether Boris Johnson is as bad as Trump.
>>>
>> You seem to have overlooked that most Republicans don't identify with Proud Boys, Oath Keepers, etc. A minor point, to a U.S. basher.
>

> You yourself asked for a comparison between Boris and Trump, and Trump did nothing to disown himself from the Proud Boys and the Oath Keepers. On the contrary, he saw them as useful tools in his >manipulations. So if you identify with Trump this carries with it an endorsement of how he used the far right.?

Politics makes strange bedfellows? Does every left-wing politician overtly disassociate from every (say) antisemitic action or statement from the British political left?

>
> This is probably the most serious moment in history for the USA, and what they do on climate change is critical. It is unbelievable that the Republicans are continuing to endorse not only one of the worst if not the worst president in the history of the USA, when it carries with it the threat of leaving crucial Climate Accords. If you can't see this you have your head in the sand.
>

I see you statement is hyperbolic.

> I am not a USA basher. I am highly critical of the way the country is flooded with guns

That's what happens when people have rights.

and the pathetic excuses of the Republicans to excuse this,

Like it's in the Constitution. Pathetic.

I am highly critical of the way the Republicans have denied the poor and disadvantaged proper healthcare and I am highly critical of the way Trump blocked progress on climate change. I could throw some more things into the pot. But the USA has achieved great things in many ways - this is undeniable. As for bashing the Republican party, that is not likely to change, and the way the party is behaving right now is worse than ever. They really have lost the plot.

You say these things as you don't even know that different opinions on most issues are a matter of differing opinions between good people and not good vs. evil.

[HT]

> You say these things as you don't even know that different opinions on most issues are a matter of differing opinions between good people and not good vs. evil.

Hmm. Most issues arise as a result of conflicting interests. There is no reason to assume that these interests are being promoted by good people. Most don't even want to be good, being effective is good enough for them.

Henk

[Andy Evans]

Indeed. But I have a big problem with so-called "good" people who oppose urgent action on climate change, as do many others and a rapidly increasing proportion of the younger generations.

[Frank Berger]

Hmmm. We are both right. Personal interest is not inconsistent with the desire to do the right thing. There are trade-offs everywhere.

[Frank Berger]

They don't much care if you have a problem with their opinions as long as your objection is limited to RMCR posts. When you start to tread on what they see as their rights, though it could be a different story.

[Andy Evans]

On Friday, 14 January 2022 at 20:02:55 UTC, Frank Berger wrote:
> They don't much care if you have a problem with their opinions as long as your objection is limited to RMCR posts. When you start to tread on what they see as their rights, though it could be a different story.

You talk about "rights" but you don't talk about the younger generation's right to a future. That's what Greta Thunberg, Extinction Rebellion and all the other activists are fighting for - they are defending something hugely more important. Or does that have no importance in your world view?

[Frank Berger]

On 1/14/2022 3:43 PM, Andy Evans wrote:
> On Friday, 14 January 2022 at 20:02:55 UTC, Frank Berger wrote:
>> They don't much care if you have a problem with their opinions as long as your objection is limited to RMCR posts. When you start to tread on what they see as their rights, though it could be a different story.
>
> You talk about "rights" but you don't talk about the younger generation's right to a future.

I said "what they see as their rights."

That's what Greta Thunberg, Extinction Rebellion and all the other activists are fighting for - they are defending something hugely more important. Or does that have no importance in your world view?

I have said nothing about my views on the subject. Assume at your own risk. I frequently brain-storm without necessarily revealing my own opinion. It is a behavior that drives some people nuts.

Suppose people who are unvaccinated-by-choice put people who are vaccinated at risk (a dubious assumption, at least not serious risk). Certainly they will put other unvaccinated-by-choice (let's say we don't care about them) and people who can't be vaccinated or have poor immune symptoms at ask. But to say they absolutely have no right to do that is questionable. It is a question of the legal system, not a matter of natural law. We would all agree that I have no right to hurt you on purpose, but it's not clear to me that I don't have a right to hurt you by accident. If a woman has the absolute right to her own body such that she can legally terminate a pregnancy, why doesn't a person have the right not be injected, even if acting that way is idiotic?

We have to be careful that we don't start with an opinion on something, and then rationalize, or fantasize an entire set of so-called facts to support that opinion. Everyone is prone to do this. You don't know the world is coming to end; you think it is. It may not be. I have no idea.

[Andy Evans]

I really should stop posting on OT threads........

The problem is there's so little activity in terms of interesting posts about music.

I should cut down my visits to this newsgroup. It's a shame - it used to be a great place.

[number_six]

I'm nowhere near the top tier here in music knowledge but I try to main a high SNR

I hope you'll stick around but improve that ratio

Climate criminals -- real or perceived -- are off topic

Chopin competition judging criminals are on topic, BUT

Criminalization of too many opposing views MAY be a call for some introspection, FWIW

[raymond....@gmail.com]

It will be lesser still should you leave. Your posts are invariably chock full of interest.

The problem with OT threads is that some here will always reply to the bitter end, and don't know when to give it a rest.

Trying to persuade the unpersuadable, however wrong they might seem, is doomed to failure. Let them lie and rot in their own ignorance.

Ray Hall, Taree

[Dan Koren]

On Friday, January 14, 2022 at 4:43:09 PM UTC-5, Andy Evans wrote:
> I really should stop posting on OT threads........

If you do so the group would become
really even more boring.

> The problem is there's so little activity in
> terms of interesting posts about music.

Music is passé. Reviews are more important. ;-)

> I should cut down my visits to this newsgroup.
> It's a shame - it used to be a great place.

Some of you may recall I proposed more
than once to have the group moderated.
No one agreed to take it seriously. Now
one can read all one likes about Nixon,
Trump, COVID amd the Pope.

dk

[HT]

Op zaterdag 15 januari 2022 om 03:59:03 UTC+1 schreef dan....@gmail.com:

You did, even decades ago. I just wonder whether a moderated group would help. Information is available in abundance elsewhere. The only reason to stay are the other members of RMCR - and their very personal views on royals, the greatness of their country, the intrinsic goodness of Homo sapiens, etc. etc.

Henk

[gggg gggg]

On Wednesday, January 5, 2022 at 2:36:38 AM UTC-8, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> https://news.google.com/stories/CAAqNggKIjBDQklTSGpvSmMzUnZjbmt0TXpZd1NoRUtEd2lVNTVfTkJCSDU5WmZ3LVlRMFNpZ0FQAQ
>

> dk

(Recent Y. upload):

Prince Andrew Loses Titles | Duke of York Case Analysis

[HT]

Op zaterdag 15 januari 2022 om 18:55:55 UTC+1 schreef dan....@gmail.com:

> On Saturday, January 15, 2022 at 7:30:49 AM UTC-5, hvt...@xs4all.nl wrote:
> > Op zaterdag 15 januari 2022 om 03:59:03 UTC+1 schreef dan....@gmail.com
> > >

> > > Some of you may recall I proposed more
> > > than once to have the group moderated.
> > > No one agreed to take it seriously. Now
> > > one can read all one likes about Nixon,
> > > Trump, COVID amd the Pope.
> >

> > You did, even decades ago. I just wonder
> > whether a moderated group would help.
> > Information is available in abundance
> > elsewhere. The only reason to stay are
> > the other members of RMCR - and their
> > very personal views on royals, the greatness
> > of their country, the intrinsic goodness of
> > Homo sapiens, etc. etc.
> >

> On cannot have both. Sorry.
>
> dk

<g> Indeed, there are no alternatives.

Henk

[Bob Harper]

Thank you, Andy, for the closely reasoned and moderately toned reply.

Bob Harper

[Bob Harper]

That, of course, was the principal point of my comment, to which it
seemed superfluous to add <<sarc>. But perhaps not.

Bob harper