BEETHOVEN SONATAS: Maria Grinberg
deac...@yahoo.com
the Tchaikovsky Competition, I passed the little booth selling LPs on
the staircase and saw, for the only time in my life, the complete set
of Beethoven Sonatas performed by Maria Grinberg.
After lunch, I intended to buy it. It was, of course, gone, and as
this was the USSR in 1982, that meant gone, gone, gone.
Twenty years later I have now had the opportunity to listen to this
set, via those Korean knock-offs of Russian CDs licensed by God knows
who to God knows even less whom.
Nine CDs with the sonatas presented systematically in the order of
their Opus numbers.
Little did I know that Melodiya had hired a member of the female
wrestling team to perform these Beethoven sonatas. True crossover!
This Amazon had a left hook that would have done in Mohammed Ali in
his prime! Curiously rhapsodic in the early sonatas, very
straight-laced in the middle sonatas, completely perfunctory in the
late sonatas, Maria Grinberg is a prime exponent of the Soviet
goose-stepping chop-chop school of piano playing. Unsubtle would be
one word, crass would be another. Grinberg represents part of the
mediocre backdrop in musical life in the Soviet Union against which
Richter, Gilels and Sofronitsky distinguished themselves as true
artists. About her Zilberquist says absolutely nothing, of course.
Curiosity is sometimes a dangerous trait.
TD
Dan Koren
news:i7onsv04h9ge41vfs...@4ax.com...
She's still better than your
beloved strudelist Mme Haebler.
dk
Dan Koren
> the Tchaikovsky Competition, I passed the little booth selling LPs on
> the staircase and saw, for the only time in my life, the complete set
> of Beethoven Sonatas performed by Maria Grinberg.
>
Did you leave of your free will,
or were you being taken away?
dk
deac...@yahoo.com
wrote:
Such an invidious practise. Comparisons.
Nonetheless, you raised the issue.
Goose-stepping was never Ingrid Haebler's forte. Nor wrestling.
And she avoided Beethoven rather studiously.
If only Ms. Grinberg had been as wise.
She would have been great for Stockhausen: Punkten!
TD
deac...@yahoo.com
wrote:
><deac...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
Again you outdo yourself in ignorance.
The Moscow Conservatory was a veritable sea of calm in the Soviet
capital. Nary a KGB officer anywhere.
And as a privileged guest of the USSR, all doors were open, Koren. The
National was a lovely hotel, too, just down the road from the
conservatory. Churchill stayed there, I believe.
TD
REG
visitor, I presume they didn't let you wander around the Arbat by yourself,
did they? I always wondered why you included that second rate Russian duo in
GPOC, and now I can understand it.
Grinberg recorded a great deal, not just the Beethoven Sonatas but the
concerti, much chamber music, and much other solo piano work. I do not think
her equally compelling in everything she did....the earlier concerti and
more convincing than 4 and 5, but I think that her musicianship is often
compelling, even where she's not totally at easy technically. Like most
people who have recorded "all" the sonatas, I don't think there's any
evidence she really lived with and played most of them in concert, and so
naturally there's often not as much "there" as one would have hoped in works
she seems less familiar with.
It's just like your level of general stupidity, by the way, that you should
post on Grinberg for the purposes of comparing her to other Russian
pianists, and then criticize Dan for doing the same thing. I don't think
that's really viciousness on your part, just a gap between your own
narcissistic view of your intelligence, and your more limited actual
abilities.
<deac...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:dgsnsv0qjiblgede8...@4ax.com...
Peter Lemken
> It's just like your level of general stupidity, by the way, that you should
> post on Grinberg for the purposes of comparing her to other Russian
> pianists, and then criticize Dan for doing the same thing. I don't think
> that's really viciousness on your part, just a gap between your own
> narcissistic view of your intelligence, and your more limited actual
> abilities.
Err, this is a *news*group.
Peter Lemken
Berlin
--
There's a remote exploit it in the free market, whereby you can boot the
price of something by talking crap. It was reported to Bugtraq yesterday,
and I'd post a link to bugzilla.nyse.ftc.gov, but they don't allow links
from slashdot. -- http://www.petitiononline.com/nosco/petition.html
REG
"Peter Lemken" <spam.f...@buerotiger.de> wrote in message
news:bqhhc2$21a400$8...@ID-31.news.uni-berlin.de...
deac...@yahoo.com
>It's just like your level of general stupidity, by the way, that you should
>post on Grinberg for the purposes of comparing her to other Russian
>pianists, and then criticize Dan for doing the same thing.
You must presume that others share your own motives in posting.
e,g, This post.
Does it have a purpose?
Have you enlightened the world on the playing of Maria Grinberg?
TD
Simon Roberts
says...
>Little did I know that Melodiya had hired a member of the female
>wrestling team to perform these Beethoven sonatas. True crossover!
>This Amazon had a left hook that would have done in Mohammed Ali in
>his prime! Curiously rhapsodic in the early sonatas, very
>straight-laced in the middle sonatas, completely perfunctory in the
>late sonatas, Maria Grinberg is a prime exponent of the Soviet
>goose-stepping chop-chop school of piano playing. Unsubtle would be
>one word, crass would be another.
"Unsubtle" and "crass", yet "curiously rhapsodic" and "straight-laced"? I wish
I had found the early sonatas rhapsodic; to these ears they're rather bland,
blank performances, and I stopped at the third disc (courtesy of Arlecchino).
Quite a good Brahms cto 1 with Rozhdestvensky, though.
Simon
Bob Lombard
I've heard the Op. 49s and the 3 last ones. In the 49s she turns some
phrases, ah, differently, but she isn't light-hearted enough (or at
all maybe) to bring off music that doesn't have much else going for
it. The late sonatas work better, but... something is missing; maybe
she doesn't connect with the music, so it doesn't connect with me? Or
maybe the problem is all mine, but the result for me is the same.
bl
Peter Lemken
> Quite a good Brahms cto 1 with Rozhdestvensky, though.
Indeed. A very "manly" performance.
deac...@yahoo.com
Surprised you stopped at the third disc.
Arlecchino was, of course, a pirate from the LPs. So, perhaps the
sound discouraged you more than the playing.
Rhapsodic was perhaps not quite the correct term: the tempos varied
considerably within a single movement, which gave a strange freedom to
the playing.
You call it bland. Yes, that too. Blank? I know what you mean, but
they are too strong to be that, in my opinion. The lady did know what
she wanted to do in this music.
Brahms 1 would perhaps be better suited to her muscular approach, but
I cannot imagine her plumbing many depths in the slow movement.
TD
deac...@yahoo.com
wrote:
She didn't connect with the music, Bob. You got it right the first
time. In fact, Op. 111 seemed particularly vapid and mechanical.
Really amazingly dumb from a musical standpoint. After all, she is
"post Schnabel"!!!
TD
deac...@yahoo.com
wrote:
>Simon Roberts <sd...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> Quite a good Brahms cto 1 with Rozhdestvensky, though.
>
>Indeed. A very "manly" performance.
>
>Peter Lemken
>Berlin
EVERYTHING she does is "manly". Hence the amazon comparison.
Strange that Myra Hess, Argerich, Haskil, never come off as "manly",
nor as feminine. Just musical. Only Bachauer is an appropriate
comparison, perhaps.
TD
Dan Koren
news:5ehpsv8nglo8rbm7s...@4ax.com...
Is your toilet in need of repair?
dk
deac...@yahoo.com
wrote:
><deac...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
Certainly not.
But yours seems to be. The internal one too.
TD
Dan Koren
news:6llpsv8l2nl5pmm1i...@4ax.com...
Here in the US we send our shit to Canada.
dk
deac...@yahoo.com
wrote:
>Here in the US we send our shit to Canada.
>dk
I guess you haven't been following events in Michigan, Koren.
Toronto has a deal whereby the city ships all of its garbage to a dump
south of Detroit. Has the natives up in arms, of course.
Nothing to do about it, apparently. NAFTA rules!
In exchange we sell you gas and oil.
So, shut up or we'll cut you off!
TD
Ian Pace
deac...@yahoo.com
wrote:
I never heard Yudina in person, but I don't think she is as pugnacious
as Grinberg, Ian.
You really have to hear Grinberg launch into the fugue in Op. 101 to
know what I mean. She is a little like a Formula One racing car at the
starting gate, smoking her way through the first few laps of the
music. Actually funny to hear. She must have had twelve cylinders!!!
TD
Steve Emerson
wrote:
> On 2 Dec 2003 16:49:20 GMT, spam.f...@buerotiger.de (Peter Lemken)
> wrote:
>
> >Simon Roberts <sd...@comcast.net> wrote:
> >
> >> Quite a good Brahms cto 1 with Rozhdestvensky, though.
> >
> >Indeed. A very "manly" performance.
> >
> >Peter Lemken
> >Berlin
>
> EVERYTHING she does is "manly". Hence the amazon comparison.
>
> Strange that Myra Hess, Argerich, Haskil, never come off as "manly",
> nor as feminine. Just musical.
I don't get a lot from the term 'feminine' to describe musicians, but I must
get a little. Haskil has always struck me as feminine. I agree with you about
the other two.
SE.
deac...@yahoo.com
I would be interested in hearing how you find Haskil's playing
"feminine". To me it simply doesn't have such a profile.
In fact, it seems that many male pianists have a feminine profile at
the keyboard. Dangerous to "name names", but it is possible, of
course.
TD
Lena
>>> EVERYTHING she does is "manly". Hence the amazon comparison.
Ehm. What's wrong with "manly," if I may ask? :):)
>>> Strange that Myra Hess, Argerich, Haskil, never come off as
"manly",
>>> nor as feminine. Just musical.
SE:
>>I don't get a lot from the term 'feminine' to describe musicians,
but I must
>>get a little. Haskil has always struck me as feminine. I agree with
you about
>>the other two.
>I would be interested in hearing how you find Haskil's playing
>"feminine". To me it simply doesn't have such a profile.
>
>In fact, it seems that many male pianists have a feminine profile at
>the keyboard. Dangerous to "name names", but it is possible, of
>course.
Hardly very dangerous. "Feminine" and "masculine" are commonly used
to describe character traits that aren't really all that
gender-specific IMO. For example, reckless piano-banging is pretty
arbitrarily distributed among genders, species, whatever...
Now, if you said that someone played like protozoa and named names...
Actually, come to think of it, you probably already have. :)
Lena
deac...@yahoo.com
>deac...@yahoo.com wrote
>
>>>> EVERYTHING she does is "manly". Hence the amazon comparison.
>
>Ehm. What's wrong with "manly," if I may ask? :):)
I have always wondered why women want to sound like men and men sound
like women. Surely it is nice to hear both sexes reveal themselves
fully in their music-making.
I hasten to add that my curiosity has absolutely nothing to do with
the manliness or femininity of the pianists in question.
It is just that I was astonished to hear Maria Grinberg play the final
movement of Op. 101 as though she were the very incarnation of a
race-car driver, hell bent for leather, foot to the floor, banging the
fugue out for all her worth. Very macho performance. But why, I asked
myself? It doesn't seem to have any musical justification, so what was
she trying to prove. The Hammerklavier, by contrast, is fairly normal.
And all the while it is very likely that Maria Grinberg was a loving
wife and mother, with scads of grandchildren for whom she baked
cookies.
And then you can listen to Kempff do the same fugue from Op. 101 and
come away thinking: How graceful that fugue was! How elegant!
The music is strong enough to take both approaches, of course.
Beethoven can survive interpretation, or misinterpretation, just about
better than any other composer, in my opinion. Get the notes right,
and you will know that the composer was a genius.
TD
David Wake
> Beethoven can survive interpretation, or misinterpretation, just about
> better than any other composer, in my opinion. Get the notes right,
> and you will know that the composer was a genius.
>
> TD
J.S. Bach is surely more indestructible, as is evidenced by the work
of Wendy Carlos and others.
I find myself more in agreement with the remarks attributed to
Furtwangler: "In Beethoven, a mediocre performance is a bad performance".
David
Bob Lombard
<dwake....@alumni.stanford.org> wrote:
That can mean the opposite of what you apparently take it to.
bl
deac...@yahoo.com
<dwake....@alumni.stanford.org> wrote:
I am less interested in "performance" than in the music itself.
TD
REG
the Dull in GPOC, and only one set of Haebler.
They let the music sleep for itself.
<deac...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:608tsvkep4fnbt25o...@4ax.com...
Dan Koren
news:4b8442bf.03120...@posting.google.com...
> deac...@yahoo.com wrote
>
> >>> EVERYTHING she does is "manly". Hence the amazon comparison.
>
> Ehm. What's wrong with "manly," if I may ask? :):)
>
Men are an ugly race. Not to mention
vain, pompous, stupid and reckless.
dk
David Wake
So why did you produce a boxed set entitled "Great Pianists of the
20th Century" rather than "Great Composers of the 20th [or whatever] Century"?
David
Ian Pace
>
> >>> EVERYTHING she does is "manly". Hence the amazon comparison.
>
> Ehm. What's wrong with "manly," if I may ask? :):)
>
> >>> Strange that Myra Hess, Argerich, Haskil, never come off as
> "manly",
> >>> nor as feminine. Just musical.
>
> SE:
> >>I don't get a lot from the term 'feminine' to describe musicians,
> but I must
> >>get a little. Haskil has always struck me as feminine. I agree with
> you about
> >>the other two.
>
> >I would be interested in hearing how you find Haskil's playing
> >"feminine". To me it simply doesn't have such a profile.
> >
> >In fact, it seems that many male pianists have a feminine profile at
> >the keyboard. Dangerous to "name names", but it is possible, of
> >course.
>
> Hardly very dangerous. "Feminine" and "masculine" are commonly used
> to describe character traits that aren't really all that
> gender-specific IMO. For example, reckless piano-banging is pretty
> arbitrarily distributed among genders, species, whatever...
>
over discontinuities, playing everything in an over-legato manner,
disallowing dryness of texture, and generally playing in such a way that
creates a hallowed aura around the music being played as a poor substitute
for grappling with the real intricacies of the substance of the work, is
also pretty arbitrarily distributed amongst different groups.
The rather cavalier use of the terms 'masculine' and 'feminine' has gone on
for a long time in musical discourse, and continues to do so. I don't have
much time for Susan McClary's work, but she does at least deserve some
credit for drawing one's attentions to the ideologies implicit in such
common parlance as 'feminine endings'. However, in a reasonable attempt to
question the masculine/feminine associations that had previously existed,
she can be prone to replacing them with an equally inflexible and
hyper-simplistic set of tropes of her own.
Anyone know the Galina Ustvolskaya Sixth Piano Sonata? The dynamics for 98%
of the piece range between ffff at the lower end and ffffff at the upper
end, and it is almost entirely in relentless, pounding, brutal clusters, in
a regular crotchet/quarter note pulse. In what sense is this piece
'feminine'?
In place of these masculine/feminine oppositions, some contemporary thought
(the 'camp' aesthetic) likes to use a gay/straight paradigm, whose
application can be equally nonsensical. To some simple-minded listeners and
commentators, an ornate, flowery, prettified, and emotionally lightweight
composition or performance might be thought of as more 'gay', whereas that
which is more intense, single-minded, heavily passionate, intellectually
challenging is more 'straight' (almost always this is conceived in male
terms - I haven't come across many notions of what a lesbian style of music
might constitute). The music of the straight composer Oliver Knussen
totally fulfills the first category, whereas that of the gay composer Jean
Barraque tends much more towards the second. Or someone else said to me
that they were sure that Schubert must be gay because of the 'intensity of
the emotions in his music'. Where does that leave Janacek?
But for what it's worth, I do find a certain machismo in some of Mozart's
music, something that HIP performances have brought out much more than was
the case in earlier 20th century performance styles (but I do believe there
are good reasons for imagining these HIP approaches constitute a closer
reflection of Mozart's conceptions). But this has an almost affected
quality in some ways, more a case of striking a particular type of posture,
musically speaking, than stemming from some unmistakeable facet of personal
conviction (as I believe is the case in Beethoven).
I find it more interesting to think about how modes of performance might be
thought of as 'individualistic' or 'collectivist'. Here goes for my own set
of ideologies that will doubtless infuriate some members of this group: the
type of performance in which a singular voice always has to be foregrounded
against others in the background connotes to me a view of the world which
privileges a few 'special' individuals as being of primary importance as
opposed to the rest of the great multitude of humanity; this is typical of
petit-bourgeois ideology. That which allows more than one voice to co-exist
in a degree of relative equality, interacting with one another, rings so
much more true and seems so much more worldly.
Similarly, in order to accept the importance of certain narcissistic and
naval-gazing music both old and new, often that of 'cult' composers (or of
'cult' performers), requires a belief that these individuals are somehow
'special' (i.e. somehow 'better people', or more 'interesting') and
therefore their own totally isolated worlds are a window onto some higher
state of consciousness (these comments could be made about any art form, not
just music). This is where the notion of art as simple self-expression
utterly falls down, in my opinion; it stands as a typical late-romantic
affectation that hardly existed in any such form before, and which modernism
rightly reacted against. The most intensely personal of music of the last
few centuries still entails an engagement on the part of the composer, whose
relationship with the society and culture they inhabit may be askew or
alienated, but nonetheless a relationship does exist; the individuals exist
'in the world' rather than retreating into a solipsistic personal mythology
of their own. The early romantics saw self-expression and irrationality as
a reaction to the formal structures, cultural and social, that had preceded
them; this quintessentially dialectical and engaged relationship was
emblematic of radical bourgeois consciousness which found its manifestation
in the culture of the time. Come the 20th century and the consolidation of
the position of the bourgeoisie, such self-expression had a very different
meaning indeed.
But I find that this sort of engagement in the early romantics can still be
meaningful and powerful nowadays, when it isn't all filtered through a
late-romantic performing tradition, reducing the music to the type of naive
individualism that the culture industry finds serves its own purpose best
(and best fulfills the unspoken perception of art as little more than an
extension of the entertainment industry given a certain veneer of high-class
respectability). This was very much on my mind yesterday when comparing the
very different performances of the Schubert Gb Impromptu by Edwin Fischer on
one hand, and Lambert Orkis on the other. Fischer's has the type of
'old-world charm', unbroken line, maximum continuity, melody always in the
foreground, sentimental pathos, that are beloved of those who harken back to
some idealized world that really never existed. In Orkis, on the other
hand, there is a more intricate relationship between the different parts,
the accompaniment figures don't merely underline the melody but interact in
a manner that is more dialectical (the attitude to voicing and the lesser
sustaining power of the instrument he plays on are crucial here), and much
more striking contrasts of texture and timbre (not least through the much
greater tonal shift provided by the una corda on the instrument he plays).
Fischer's is a performance to sink back, languish and lose oneself in
reverie about, whereas Orkis forces a different engagement on the part of
the listener with a more complex and occasionally dark reality; this
performance has a unity, certainly, but many tensions entailed are by no
means resolved comfortably by the time of the final tonic chord. To me, the
latter speaks much more about the Vienna that Schubert inhabited, riven by
immense poverty, political instability, anti-Semitism, total ostracization
of homosexuals, etc.; his consciousness can hardly have been untouched by
such factors. In Fischer's performance, on the other hand, I hear an
uncritical affirmation of a society that did relatively little for Schubert
in his lifetime, but now wants to celebrate his music as the epitome of that
culture. In short, Orkis's performance seems much more 'real', and in the
sense of representing to my ears a more 'authentic' (!) representation of
the individual living in society, is much more genuinely personal than an
attitude of nostalgic individualism could attain.
It's highly unlikely that these sorts of ideologies are the result of
conscious decisions towards such ends on the parts of the performers, but
conscious intention is a very limited concept, eschewing the extent to which
individuals are constructed by many social, cultural and other determinants
that precede them, and shape their consciousness.
Best,
Ian
Matthew燘. Tepper
following letters to be typed in news:9n1xrlr...@Turing.Stanford.EDU:
Because that's where the money is?
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
War is Peace. ** Freedom is Slavery. ** It's all Napster's fault!
Dan Koren
Kant seems to have taken hold of him again.
dk
" Ian Pace" <i...@ianpace.com> wrote in message
news:bqmfg0$23tu66$1...@ID-209093.news.uni-berlin.de...
deac...@yahoo.com
<dwake....@alumni.stanford.org> wrote:
Ever heard of money, David?
TD
deac...@yahoo.com
<oy兀earthlink.net> wrote:
>David Wake <dwake....@alumni.stanford.org> appears to have caused the
>following letters to be typed in news:9n1xrlr...@Turing.Stanford.EDU:
>
>> deac...@yahoo.com writes:
>>
>>> On 03 Dec 2003 17:44:31 -0800, David Wake
>>> <dwake....@alumni.stanford.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> >deac...@yahoo.com writes:
>>> >
>>> >> Beethoven can survive interpretation, or misinterpretation, just
>>> >> about better than any other composer, in my opinion. Get the notes
>>> >> right, and you will know that the composer was a genius.
>>> >>
>>> >> TD
>>> >
>>> >J.S. Bach is surely more indestructible, as is evidenced by the work
>>> >of Wendy Carlos and others.
>>> >
>>> >I find myself more in agreement with the remarks attributed to
>>> >Furtwangler: "In Beethoven, a mediocre performance is a bad
>>> >performance".
>>> >
>>> >David
>>>
>>> I am less interested in "performance" than in the music itself.
>>>
>>> TD
>>
>> So why did you produce a boxed set entitled "Great Pianists of the 20th
>> Century" rather than "Great Composers of the 20th [or whatever] Century"?
>
>Because that's where the money is?
Miracle.
Finally Tepper got something right.
TD
deac...@yahoo.com
wrote:
>"Lena" <lena_r...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
Men are not a race. Men are a sex.
Women are also a sex.
Mankind may be a race. Ugly? Not so sure about that. But perhaps you
are an example which proves your case.
TD
Lena
>> >>> EVERYTHING she does is "manly". Hence the amazon comparison.
>>
>> Ehm. What's wrong with "manly," if I may ask? :):)
> Men are an ugly race. Not to mention vain, pompous, stupid and
> reckless.
No, beautiful, mysterious and more interesting than an arm-twisting
pigeon in galoshes.
Actually, what on earth are we talking about? :)
Lena
deac...@yahoo.com
breaking into a rash.
There are special medicated creams for your problems, you know, Koren.
TD
On Thu, 04 Dec 2003 08:05:00 GMT, "Dan Koren" <dank...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
>
deac...@yahoo.com
Nothing.
As usual, Koren is simply babbling. He has even become Kantian in the
process.
TD
Ian Pace
>
> >> >>> EVERYTHING she does is "manly". Hence the amazon comparison.
> >>
> >> Ehm. What's wrong with "manly," if I may ask? :):)
>
> > Men are an ugly race. Not to mention vain, pompous, stupid and
> > reckless.
>
> No, beautiful, mysterious and more interesting than an arm-twisting
> pigeon in galoshes.
>
(must have led a sheltered life), but I'm sure if I found one, it'd be a
mite interesting, like - d'ya know whad I mean?
Cheers,
Ian
Ian Pace
>
> >> >>> EVERYTHING she does is "manly". Hence the amazon comparison.
> >>
> >> Ehm. What's wrong with "manly," if I may ask? :):)
>
> > Men are an ugly race. Not to mention vain, pompous, stupid and
> > reckless.
>
> No, beautiful, mysterious and more interesting than an arm-twisting
> pigeon in galoshes.
>
Sally* - "I'll have whatever she's having!" :)
Lena
> On 3 Dec 2003 16:56:43 -0800, lena_r...@yahoo.com (Lena) wrote:
>
> >deac...@yahoo.com wrote
> >
> >>>> EVERYTHING she does is "manly". Hence the amazon comparison.
> >
> >Ehm. What's wrong with "manly," if I may ask? :):)
>
> I have always wondered why women want to sound like men and men sound
> like women.
This is music, she's not actually dating the piano (I think). Maria
Grinberg is expressing her musical personality, which may consist of
traits like unsentimentality, brashness, and other things one would
rather not go to the trouble of finding adjectives for... The "manly"
is just shorthand for all that; it doesn't necessarily have to do with
the real world item.
>It is just that I was astonished to hear Maria Grinberg play the
final
>movement of Op. 101 as though she were the very incarnation of a
>race-car driver, hell bent for leather, foot to the floor, banging
the
>fugue out for all her worth. Very macho performance. But why, I asked
>myself? It doesn't seem to have any musical justification, so what
was
>she trying to prove.
It's OK if you think the performance is worthless, but I don't see how
the pianist's restroom preference is relevant to the assessment...
Some women just have (musical or real) personality traits as in the
list above. She could well be your race car driver from hell in Op.
101 and the lisping Marilyn Monroe of the Moscow Conservatory after
hours.
> Surely it is nice to hear both sexes reveal themselves
> fully in their music-making.
Surely not that!! :)
(Ich will now manlily out of this conversation forthwith just in time
bail...! )
Lena
Simon Roberts
>
>Anyone know the Galina Ustvolskaya Sixth Piano Sonata? The dynamics for 98%
>of the piece range between ffff at the lower end and ffffff at the upper
>end, and it is almost entirely in relentless, pounding, brutal clusters, in
>a regular crotchet/quarter note pulse. In what sense is this piece
>'feminine'?
Perhaps none; but then "feminine" is used figuratively in this context to
describe certain traits, so there's nothing terribly incongruous about female
artists being "masculine."
>I find it more interesting to think about how modes of performance might be
>thought of as 'individualistic' or 'collectivist'. Here goes for my own set
>of ideologies that will doubtless infuriate some members of this group: the
>type of performance in which a singular voice always has to be foregrounded
>against others in the background connotes to me a view of the world which
>privileges a few 'special' individuals as being of primary importance as
>opposed to the rest of the great multitude of humanity; this is typical of
>petit-bourgeois ideology. That which allows more than one voice to co-exist
>in a degree of relative equality, interacting with one another, rings so
>much more true and seems so much more worldly.
Perhaps (though surely you mean "seems more desirable" rather than "rings so
much more true and seems so much more worldly"); but there may be other more
plausible explanations for such performances - the dimwittedness (or, if you
like the results, some positive term can be substituted) that sees music in
terms of a tune with accompaniment (Beecham often strikes me that way, as do
many pianists with "weak" left hands, those who like their lieder singers
accompanied by the likes of Dalton Baldwin, etc.).
Simon
deac...@yahoo.com
>Some women just have (musical or real) personality traits as in the
>list above. She could well be your race car driver from hell in Op.
>101 and the lisping Marilyn Monroe of the Moscow Conservatory after
>hours.
If only that were true. Even in the sonatas where one might expect
some grace and elegance one remains disappointed.
TD
Steve Emerson
wrote:
I believe "after hours" is here meant as "when not performing," not "when
performing something else."
SE.
Steve Emerson
wrote:
> No, he is simply capable of more than three words at a time without
> breaking into a rash.
>
> There are special medicated creams for your problems, you know, Koren.
Per your response to MT's post a day or so ago, please try to observe your own
policy and confine the personal insults to instances where you've been
subjected to them yourself.
SE.
EG
> Kant seems to have taken hold of him again.
>
Just a case of keyboard diarrhea.
deac...@yahoo.com
<eme...@nospamsonic.net> wrote:
>Per your response to MT's post a day or so ago, please try to observe your own
>policy and confine the personal insults to instances where you've been
>subjected to them yourself.
Sorry, Steve. They continue and have not stopped since I first
appeared in this forum. Tit for tat, as they say. When they stop, so
will I. That I promise you. When I came here, I didn't even know that
people like Koren existed. Outside of the gangs of LA, that is.
TD
Lena
> " Ian Pace" <i...@ianpace.com> wrote
>>Anyone know the Galina Ustvolskaya Sixth Piano Sonata? The dynamics for 98%
>>of the piece range between ffff at the lower end and ffffff at the upper
>>end, and it is almost entirely in relentless, pounding, brutal clusters, in
>>a regular crotchet/quarter note pulse. In what sense is this piece
>>'feminine'?
I've heard the Ustvolskaya; it's feminine mainly in the sense of
having been composed by somebody with two X chromosomes.
>Perhaps none; but then "feminine" is used figuratively in this
>context to describe certain traits, so there's nothing terribly
>incongruous about female artists being "masculine."
That's right... And saying that Kempff is "feminine" and Kocsis is
"masculine" does convey something.
[Ian:]
>>The rather cavalier use of the terms 'masculine' and 'feminine' has gone on
>>for a long time in musical discourse, and continues to do so.
I initially balked at the use of those terms in describing
someone's playing, since - well, it's obvious. (It also seems a bit
unfair to be constitutionally required to play with limp wrists just
because one is a sort of a feminine person.)
But now, several posts later, I think the words are so convenient it
would be a pity to disallow them - it's a lot faster to say that a
pianist sounds "masculine" than to explain that he hits accents with
some force, uses clearly defined dynamics, doesn't taper phrase
endings, etc. I'm already getting tired... :)
Some of the 19th century usage examples are pretty infuriating,
however. (And Susan McClary is equally infuriating... :) )
Lena
Lena
[I'll do this selectively, your post is long...]
>In place of these masculine/feminine oppositions, some contemporary thought
>(the 'camp' aesthetic) likes to use a gay/straight paradigm, whose
>application can be equally nonsensical.
I wasn't aware of this - kind of interesting (and yes, equally
nonsensical).
>But for what it's worth, I do find a certain machismo in some of
>Mozart's music, something that HIP performances have brought out much
>more than was the case in earlier 20th century performance styles [...]
> But this has an almost affected quality in
>some ways, more a case of striking a particular type of posture,
>musically speaking, than stemming from some unmistakeable facet of
>personal conviction (as I believe is the case in Beethoven).
I'm not sure what you mean. There is a lot of energy in some
instrumental Mozart, even bluster. Whether it's fake or not, I'm not
that sure. (Something like Masetto in Don Giovanni doesn't count,
since it's an opera characterization of a machoish person.)
Sometimes there's a real question about how much expressive content is
due to the performer and how much to the composer. Certain things are
very easy to tinker with in performance - sounding decisive
vs. tentative is one of them.
So machismo (etc.) can be a quality conveyed more by the performer
than the composer. (I can think of examples like this; Kocsis' Mozart
could count as macho Mozart, actually.)
With Beethoven, if the word is again considered just a loose stand-in
word for a set of traits, there might be a case for compositional
"machismo' (but that only applies to a portion of Beethoven, obviously).
>I find it more interesting to think about how modes of performance
>might be thought of as 'individualistic' or 'collectivist'. Here
>goes for my own set of ideologies that will doubtless infuriate some
>members of this group: the type of performance in which a singular
>voice always has to be foregrounded against others in the background
>connotes to me a view of the world which privileges a few 'special'
>individuals as being of primary importance as opposed to the rest of
>the great multitude of humanity; this is typical of petit-bourgeois
>ideology. That which allows more than one voice to co-exist in a
>degree of relative equality, interacting with one another, rings so
>much more true and seems so much more worldly.
Why not just musical reasons for your preference? Those reasons seem very
persuasive to me.
>To me, the latter speaks much more about the Vienna that Schubert
>inhabited, riven by immense poverty, political instability,
>anti-Semitism, total ostracization of homosexuals, etc.; his
>consciousness can hardly have been untouched by such factors. In
>Fischer's performance, on the other hand, I hear an uncritical
>affirmation of a society that did relatively little for Schubert in
>his lifetime, but now wants to celebrate his music as the epitome of
>that culture. In short, Orkis's performance seems much more 'real',
>and in the sense of representing to my ears a more 'authentic' (!)
>representation of the individual living in society, is much more
>genuinely personal than an attitude of nostalgic individualism could
>attain.
>It's highly unlikely that these sorts of ideologies are the result of
>conscious decisions towards such ends on the parts of the performers,
>but conscious intention is a very limited concept, eschewing the
>extent to which individuals are constructed by many social, cultural
>and other determinants that precede them, and shape their
>consciousness.
I find it fascinating that such not unimaginative and nicely convoluted
thoughts about Viennese society can enter a person's head when
comparing two Schubert takes. I can't say I agree, but there's
something interesting about it anyway. (I feel almost inspired to try
to locate Schubert's lost tram ticket in the treble of the Orkis
version (OK, there were no trams in Vienna so Orkis is possibly only
HIP-influenced). I detect an open fire somewhere in the left hand.)
My real 'ideology' is the admittedly far less fun 3-penny ideology
about music having something to do with organized sound. (Yes, and I
also stole my ideology, to boot. :) )
Lena
Lena
> > Strange that Myra Hess, Argerich, Haskil, never come off as "manly",
> > nor as feminine. Just musical.
>
> I don't get a lot from the term 'feminine' to describe musicians, but I must
> get a little. Haskil has always struck me as feminine. I agree with you
> about the other two.
Can you give an example of Haskil's 'femininity'? I heard her Mozart K. 330
beginning, and if that's femininity, I rather feel like giving it one of
the usual nice swift kicks out the door. :)
Lena
Lena
> Kant seems to have taken hold of him again.
De-kanting procedures will have to wait. I'll buy you a beautiful new
set of ears with optional pink silk earplugs so that you don't have to listen
while someone else is saying what they feel like saying... :)
(Proudly noting that my sentence qualifies as blather in its own right. :) )
Lena
Lena
> >Actually, what on earth are we talking about? :)
> >
> >Lena
>
> Nothing.
>
> As usual, Koren is simply babbling. He has even become Kantian in the
> process.
Whatever he does, Dan doesn't babble. Anyway, Tom, it would be rather
nice if you could give this a rest for a while...
Lena
Dan Koren
No, why? Let him have fun while he can.
dk
Dan Koren
No, if you like to hear 'feminine' Mozart,
listen to Mme Strudel -- er, I mean Haebler.
And for a real treat, try Geza Panda's TV
Mozart.
dk
EG
There is no hope to hear anything intelligent from you. Only stupidity
mixed with malice.
Therefore, the insults will stop when you vanish.
Matthew燘. Tepper
letters to be typed in
As a former student of McClary, I must aver that she seemed to be a
perfectly normal musicologist in the early 1980s.
deac...@yahoo.com
Or, identify yourself, if you dare.
TD
steve wolk
<deac...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ui21tvo8seuie3cbp...@4ax.com...
--
If Tom Deacon wandered into a clue market on "Free Clue Day" with a fistful
of clue coupons and a gift certificate for 10 clues, he wouldn't have a
clue.
Dan Koren
news:9ubvsvg884kkr8bbn...@4ax.com...
The gangs in r.m.c.r are much worse, trust me.
One could get mugged just for eating strudel,
or missing a bar.
dk
Manilov
> This Amazon had a left hook that would have done in Mohammed Ali in
> his prime! Curiously rhapsodic in the early sonatas, very
> straight-laced in the middle sonatas, completely perfunctory in the
> late sonatas, Maria Grinberg is a prime exponent of the Soviet
> goose-stepping chop-chop school of piano playing. Unsubtle would be
> one word, crass would be another. Grinberg represents part of the
> mediocre backdrop in musical life in the Soviet Union against which
> Richter, Gilels and Sofronitsky distinguished themselves as true
> artists. About her Zilberquist says absolutely nothing, of course.
>
> Curiosity is sometimes a dangerous trait.
>
> TD
My only comment on the gender discussion your remarks occasioned is to
observe that what you say about Grinberg reminded me of the view
expressed in the original High Fidelity review from ca. 1960 of the
wonderful Annie Fischer/Fricsay Beethoven op. 37. The reviewer (Robert
C. Marsh) disliked it intensely, dismissing it by saying something
like: "Here we have Beethoven in lace undergarments". At least what he
penned can be dismissed as a remnant of the bad old days.
As for Grinberg's playing, I think you are being a bit harsh. I've
only heard the sonatas through op. 14 and enjoy some of the playing
quite a lot. The andante of op. 14 no 2, for example, is far more
subtly and wittily put across than most, e.g. Barenboim's terribly
crass account at Carnegie last June (similar iirc to his first
recording). Her finale of op.10 no. 1 is also very fine, taking the
prestissimo marking seriously, but leaving room here also for wit and
grace. It's easily one of the best I know. And the slow movements of
the op. 2 sonatas feature some very nice lyrical moments, with
phrasing exhibiting musical intelligence and imagination. So I have to
disagree with your wholesale condemnation.
I do agree, though, with the judgment that Grinberg ultimately falls
short. It is very seldom that an entire piece is performed at a level
approaching these high points, and there are many movements that do
seem perfunctory and insufficiently thought out. (I confess I haven't
felt inclined to buy the later sonatas.) But if I can't urge anyone to
run out and buy these discs, I am glad to have heard them and still
listen to the best parts with pleasure. So the curious will find some
rewards here, imo, if perhaps not a surfeit thereof.
I believe Grinberg recorded all 5 Beethoven concerti as well, no? I
only know #4, which is indeed lacking in subtlety.
Grinberg is imo very good in the Shostakovich 1st Concerto, the Franck
Variations (admittedly a very fast account), and one or two short
pieces by Schubert.
P Manilov
Simon Roberts
>
>My only comment on the gender discussion your remarks occasioned is to
>observe that what you say about Grinberg reminded me of the view
>expressed in the original High Fidelity review from ca. 1960 of the
>wonderful Annie Fischer/Fricsay Beethoven op. 37. The reviewer (Robert
>C. Marsh) disliked it intensely, dismissing it by saying something
>like: "Here we have Beethoven in lace undergarments". At least what he
>penned can be dismissed as a remnant of the bad old days.
It also sounds (to the extent I know what he means) like the comments of someone
who's not heard the recording. I wonder if he would have written that had he
not known the identity of the pianist.
Simon
Matthew B. Tepper
into my killfile so as to decrease the amount of his verbiage that appears
on my monitor. By parroting back, you are defeating this noble endeavor.
I beg you to reconsider. I prefer a Deaconrein browse.
Possible solution: you could use a slightly different screen name from
your regular one, for these particular posts. Then I could put that name
my killfile, and I would not miss anything of value.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
War is Peace. ** Freedom is Slavery. ** It's all Napster's Fault!
deac...@yahoo.com
<oyþ@earthlink.net> wrote:
I prefer a Deaconrein browse.
How appropriate. Almost like Judenrein, isn't it.
What goes around comes around, obviously.
TD
deac...@yahoo.com
I agree with your comments on Op. 14 No. 2.
But I have to say I did not detect much in the way of "wit" in her
playing. She is just too heavy handed for that.
I did make my way through the entire 32 sonatas and still think that
Op. 101 just has to be heard, particularly the finale. It is almost
funny!
What I would love to know is something ABOUT Maria Grinberg. My
sources give practically no information, birth dates, death(?) dates,
teachers, students, famous accomplishments. Perhaps some of our
Russian born contributors can provide more detail, eventually.
TD
deac...@yahoo.com
Come on, Simon. Fischer's Beethoven 3 is truly on the delicate side.
Compare, if you will, Fleisher in the same concerto, or, more
recently, Berezovsky with Dausgaard on Simax.
I knew R C Marsh and worked with him on a Bartok series. He was not
influenced by extraneous matters and would have made the same comment
about a lot of Gieseking's Beethoven concerti recordings, I am sure.
TD
steve wolk
"Matthew B. Tepper" <oy兀earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:Xns9448804B0E3...@207.217.77.205...
> Steve, I believe I understand the point you are making; but I dumped TD
> into my killfile so as to decrease the amount of his verbiage that appears
> on my monitor. By parroting back, you are defeating this noble endeavor.
> I beg you to reconsider. I prefer a Deaconrein browse.
>
> Possible solution: you could use a slightly different screen name from
> your regular one, for these particular posts. Then I could put that name
> my killfile, and I would not miss anything of value.
Matthew, I always honor a polite request. Consider it done.
Henk van Tuijl
<deac...@yahoo.com> schreef in bericht
news:es32tvg89dvtpf9bp...@4ax.com...
> What I would love to know is something ABOUT Maria Grinberg. My
> sources give practically no information, birth dates, death(?) dates,
> teachers, students, famous accomplishments. Perhaps some of our
> Russian born contributors can provide more detail, eventually.
>
> TD
Grinberg (1908-1978)
Teachers:
Aysberg - Odessa Conservatorium
Blumenfeld - Moscow
Igumnov
First prize Conservatorium for Beethoven PC #3
Moscow Radio 1936 - 50s
Teacher Gnesin Institute 1959 - 1970
Professor Gnesin Institute 1970 - 1978
(Source: Russian Piano School Vol. 14)
I must admit that I find her Brahms
difficult to listen to.
Henk
Dan Koren
news:3fd11b07$0$207$e4fe...@news.xs4all.nl...
Sounds like a Russian Mme. Haebler.
Minus the strudel.
dk
Matthew燘. Tepper
letters to be typed in news:z6mdnWCGE7u...@comcast.com:
Steve, you're a gentleman and a scholar. I thank you.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
War is Peace. ** Freedom is Slavery. ** It's all Napster's fault!
Dan Koren
news:Xns9448B22CB9B...@207.217.77.205...
> "steve wolk" <Bar...@Seville.com> appears to have caused the following
> letters to be typed in news:z6mdnWCGE7u...@comcast.com:
>
> > news:Xns9448804B0E3...@207.217.77.205...
> >> Steve, I believe I understand the point you are making; but I dumped TD
> >> into my killfile so as to decrease the amount of his verbiage that
> >> appears on my monitor. By parroting back, you are defeating this noble
> >> endeavor. I beg you to reconsider. I prefer a Deaconrein browse.
> >>
> >> Possible solution: you could use a slightly different screen name from
> >> your regular one, for these particular posts. Then I could put that
> >> name my killfile, and I would not miss anything of value.
> >
> >
> > Matthew, I always honor a polite request. Consider it done.
>
> Steve, you're a gentleman and a scholar. I thank you.
>
One cannot be *both* a gentleman
and a scholar at the same time.
dk
deac...@yahoo.com
wrote:
>"Matthew B. Tepper" <oyţ@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>news:Xns9448B22CB9B...@207.217.77.205...
>> "steve wolk" <Bar...@Seville.com> appears to have caused the following
>> letters to be typed in news:z6mdnWCGE7u...@comcast.com:
>>
>> > "Matthew B. Tepper" <oyţ@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>> > news:Xns9448804B0E3...@207.217.77.205...
>> >> Steve, I believe I understand the point you are making; but I dumped TD
>> >> into my killfile so as to decrease the amount of his verbiage that
>> >> appears on my monitor. By parroting back, you are defeating this noble
>> >> endeavor. I beg you to reconsider. I prefer a Deaconrein browse.
>> >>
>> >> Possible solution: you could use a slightly different screen name from
>> >> your regular one, for these particular posts. Then I could put that
>> >> name my killfile, and I would not miss anything of value.
>> >
>> >
>> > Matthew, I always honor a polite request. Consider it done.
>>
>> Steve, you're a gentleman and a scholar. I thank you.
>>
>
>
>One cannot be *both* a gentleman
>and a scholar at the same time.
As neither is neither, it doesn't really matter.
One foot in shit, the other in their mouth. All at the same time.
Soon Cirque du Soleil will have them on display.
Behind bars, one hopes.
TD
EG
> Steve, I believe I understand the point you are making; but I dumped TD
> into my killfile so as to decrease the amount of his verbiage that appears
> on my monitor. By parroting back, you are defeating this noble endeavor.
> I beg you to reconsider. I prefer a Deaconrein browse.
>
> Possible solution: you could use a slightly different screen name from
> your regular one, for these particular posts. Then I could put that name
> my killfile, and I would not miss anything of value.
So allow me to ask you what do you use to read the newsgroup and how
do you configure the killfile?
steve wolk
"Matthew B. Tepper" <oyş@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:Xns9448B22CB9B...@207.217.77.205...
> "steve wolk" <Bar...@Seville.com> appears to have caused the following
> letters to be typed in news:z6mdnWCGE7u...@comcast.com:
>
> > news:Xns9448804B0E3...@207.217.77.205...
> >> Steve, I believe I understand the point you are making; but I dumped TD
> >> into my killfile so as to decrease the amount of his verbiage that
> >> appears on my monitor. By parroting back, you are defeating this noble
> >> endeavor. I beg you to reconsider. I prefer a Deaconrein browse.
> >>
> >> Possible solution: you could use a slightly different screen name from
> >> your regular one, for these particular posts. Then I could put that
> >> name my killfile, and I would not miss anything of value.
> >
> >
> > Matthew, I always honor a polite request. Consider it done.
>
> Steve, you're a gentleman and a scholar. I thank you.
And a fan of Taktakishvili, too.
Matthew燘. Tepper
letters to be typed in
The newsreader is Xnews, and it is *freeware* which runs under Windows 9x
and greater. It can be found at:
Dumping somebody in the killfile is unbelievably easy. Select his post
(you don't even have to look at the contents!), press "k," and either
accept the default period of 100 days, or fill in another number. Zero
puts somebody in *permanently*! Here's a peek at a very small portion of
my killfile:
malcolm oakes m...@west.net 0
marco bertolini marcobe...@inwind.it 0
mark booker boo...@loa.com 0
mark coy markin...@yahoo.com 0
mark coy mp...@rule.com 0
mark coy ottos...@ebay.com 0
mark hampton hamp...@loa.com 0
mark huffman ma...@vonl.com 0
marketingtops.com darius...@yahoo.com 0
If any of the above post in any newsgroup I follow, their posts never show
up. Not greyed out as in WinVN (my previous favorite newsreader), but
totally and completely invisible, wiped out as though they simply did not
exist. I enjoy editing the "real world" to make it prettier.
The score file is trickier to use, and I really suggest you read the manual
to see exactly how to use it. But it also causes unwanted detritus to
become completely invisible. Again, a small portion is reproduced here:
[rec.music.*]
Score: -9999
Subject: RTT|gutsy|matt|porn|musty rag|sipow...@yahoo.com|insult
ebay|Sipnowitz|is a troll|busted|back to work|teen art|Tepper|smut|Coy|
adjectives|shorecaster|conservative republican|gay|Chinks|Olympic high|
paedophilia|Nicoli|rapper|racist|more proof|Wardy|SCIOCCANTE|hardmen|
krispy|burn the american|some ebay sellers|Jim Smith|a warning|classic na
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
War is Peace. ** Freedom is Slavery. ** It's all Napster's fault!
Matthew燘. Tepper
> "Matthew B. Tepper" <oyţ@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:Xns9448B22CB9B...@207.217.77.205...
>> "steve wolk" <Bar...@Seville.com> appears to have caused the following
>> letters to be typed in news:z6mdnWCGE7u...@comcast.com:
>>
>> > "Matthew B. Tepper" <oyţ@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>> > news:Xns9448804B0E3...@207.217.77.205...
>> >> Steve, I believe I understand the point you are making; but I dumped
>> >> TD into my killfile so as to decrease the amount of his verbiage that
>> >> appears on my monitor. By parroting back, you are defeating this
>> >> noble endeavor. I beg you to reconsider. I prefer a Deaconrein
>> >> browse.
>> >>
>> >> Possible solution: you could use a slightly different screen name
>> >> from your regular one, for these particular posts. Then I could put
>> >> that name my killfile, and I would not miss anything of value.
>> >
>> > Matthew, I always honor a polite request. Consider it done.
>>
>> Steve, you're a gentleman and a scholar. I thank you.
>
>
> And a fan of Taktakishvili, too.
When I finally begin burning CDRs of his music, you're on the list of
recipients. Perhaps the best place to start will be the three piano
concerti.
Henk van Tuijl
"Dan Koren" <dank...@yahoo.com> schreef in bericht
news:3fd13000$1...@news.meer.net...
between the complete Haebler Mozart
concertos and the complete Grinberg
Beethoven sonatas - but in the end it
would be Mozart.
Haebler is a true professional and a
very consistent performer.
Henk
deac...@yahoo.com
<hvt...@xs4all.nl> wrote:
>I would have a difficult time choosing
>between the complete Haebler Mozart
>concertos and the complete Grinberg
>Beethoven sonatas - but in the end it
>would be Mozart.
>
>Haebler is a true professional and a
>very consistent performer.
She also was, together with Felix Ayo's Vivaldi 4 Seasons, responsible
for keeping Philips alive as a classical label throughout the 1960s.
Her recordings continue to sell extremely well in Japan, I believe.
The concertos of Mozart she recorded with three or four conductors
have continually sold extremely well over the years, as have her
Mozart solo works.
She was also one of the few performers who actually took pen to paper
to thank me personally for including her in the GPE. Another was
Evgeny Kissin. Both obviously were raised properly.
She resides in the hills above Salzburg and most definitely does not
make or eat Strudel! Nor, I imagine, does she know, or want to know,
or want to be known by, one Dan Koren, our serial babbler.
TD
steve wolk
> "steve wolk" <Bar...@Seville.com> appears to have caused the following
> letters to be typed in news:7OudndqHQY-...@comcast.com:
>
> > news:Xns9448B22CB9B...@207.217.77.205...
> >> "steve wolk" <Bar...@Seville.com> appears to have caused the following
> >> letters to be typed in news:z6mdnWCGE7u...@comcast.com:
> >>
> >> > news:Xns9448804B0E3...@207.217.77.205...
> >> >> Steve, I believe I understand the point you are making; but I dumped
> >> >> TD into my killfile so as to decrease the amount of his verbiage
that
> >> >> appears on my monitor. By parroting back, you are defeating this
> >> >> noble endeavor. I beg you to reconsider. I prefer a Deaconrein
> >> >> browse.
> >> >>
> >> >> Possible solution: you could use a slightly different screen name
> >> >> from your regular one, for these particular posts. Then I could put
> >> >> that name my killfile, and I would not miss anything of value.
> >> >
> >> > Matthew, I always honor a polite request. Consider it done.
> >>
> >> Steve, you're a gentleman and a scholar. I thank you.
> >
> >
> > And a fan of Taktakishvili, too.
>
> When I finally begin burning CDRs of his music, you're on the list of
> recipients. Perhaps the best place to start will be the three piano
> concerti.
Bless you. But, before you go to the trouble, we should compare lists of
what we already have.
Matthew燘. Tepper
> "Matthew B. Tepper" <oyţ@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:Xns94496D12C7...@207.217.77.206...
>> "steve wolk" <Bar...@Seville.com> appears to have caused the following
>> letters to be typed in news:7OudndqHQY-...@comcast.com:
>>
>> > "Matthew B. Tepper" <oyţ@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>> > news:Xns9448B22CB9B...@207.217.77.205...
>> >>
>> >> Steve, you're a gentleman and a scholar. I thank you.
>> >
>> >
>> > And a fan of Taktakishvili, too.
>>
>> When I finally begin burning CDRs of his music, you're on the list of
>> recipients. Perhaps the best place to start will be the three piano
>> concerti.
>
>
> Bless you. But, before you go to the trouble, we should compare lists of
> what we already have.
Since (as you know) there's precious little of Taktakishvili's music on CD,
apart from at least five recordings of the Flute Sonata, most of my discs
of Otar's music are old Melodiya LPs. Since these are in storage, it's not
possible to check contents in detail, but I can cut and paste from my
record purchase ledger. Apologies for the paucity of performer IDs:
Taktakishvili Choral Works (Taktakishvili)
Taktakishvili Folk Songs, Gurel Songs (Taktakishvili)
Taktakishvili Love Songs (Sotkilaba, Namoradze)
Taktakishvili Mindiya (Dmitriadi/All-Union RO) (2)
Taktakishvili Musoussi (Levin/Moscow Ch. Mus. Theatre) (2)
Taktakishvili Mytsyri (Taktakishvili/USSRSSO; \Khachaturian)
Taktakishvili Nikoloz Baratashvili (Taktakishvili/MoscowPO)
Taktakishvili On the Trail of Rustaveli (Khurodze)
Taktakishvili On the Trail of Rustaveli (Rozhdestvensky/URO)
Taktakishvili Pf. Con. #1, Vn. Con. (Taktakishvili)
Taktakishvili Pf. Con. #2, etc.
Taktakishvili Pf. Con. #3, etc.
Taktakishvili Str. Qr., Five Vocal Poems (BorodinQ, etc.)
Taktakishvili Songs (Arkhipova)
Taktakishvili Sym. #2 (Ivanov/USSRSO)
Many of these I bought from David Canfield of Ars Antiqua, so I imagine the
catalogue numbers might all be listed in his Canfield Guide.
There are still two items I'm looking for, one symphony, one opera:
Melodiya D 02348/9 Taktakishvili: Symphony #1
Melodiya D 025643 Taktakishvili: Tri Novelly (Taktakishvili)
I imagine you're already familiar with Onno van Rijen's Taktakishvili page,
but I'll include the URL here for anybody interested:
http://home.wanadoo.nl/ovar/taktak.htm
REG
not in doubt :)))), but the question is whether she rises in any respect to
be a great pianist of the century. As Tom ant-Semite Deacon points out, she
sold a lot of records for Phillips, and its hard not to believe that they
were paying her back for that by including her in the series. Can you really
tell me that there is anything she does "better than anyone else", or so
distinctively so as to merit that kind of singling out? It's perfectly
"nice" playing, but nothing more than that imho.
"Henk van Tuijl" <hvt...@xs4all.nl> wrote in message
news:3fd21a29$0$215$e4fe...@news.xs4all.nl...
Simon Roberts
>
>
>I would have a difficult time choosing
>between the complete Haebler Mozart
>concertos and the complete Grinberg
>Beethoven sonatas - but in the end it
>would be Mozart.
>
>Haebler is a true professional and a
>very consistent performer.
At the very least, she often received some of the gutsiest orchestral support to
be found in a complete set of Mozart concertos (very well recorded too, with
more attention to the bass instruments than is usually the case), though the
downside of that (if that's what it is) is that it makes her playing sound even
smaller than it otherwise might have done.
Simon
EG
>
> http://xnews.newsguy.com/
>
> Dumping somebody in the killfile is unbelievably easy. Select his post
> (you don't even have to look at the contents!), press "k," and either
> accept the default period of 100 days, or fill in another number. Zero
> puts somebody in *permanently*! Here's a peek at a very small portion of
> my killfile:
I'm not using windows, so I guess I won;t go to the trouble.
It is almost never possible to escape all the junk as new junk keeps coming.
It is easier to mentally kill the pollution deacons.
steve wolk
> "steve wolk" <Bar...@Seville.com> appears to have caused the following
> letters to be typed in news:CdCdnRtIa-M...@comcast.com:
>
> > news:Xns94496D12C7...@207.217.77.206...
> >> "steve wolk" <Bar...@Seville.com> appears to have caused the following
> >> letters to be typed in news:7OudndqHQY-...@comcast.com:
> >>
> >> > news:Xns9448B22CB9B...@207.217.77.205...
> >> >>
> >> >> Steve, you're a gentleman and a scholar. I thank you.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > And a fan of Taktakishvili, too.
> >>
> >> When I finally begin burning CDRs of his music, you're on the list of
> >> recipients. Perhaps the best place to start will be the three piano
> >> concerti.
> >
> >
> > Bless you. But, before you go to the trouble, we should compare lists
of
> > what we already have.
>
> Since (as you know) there's precious little of Taktakishvili's music on
CD,
> apart from at least five recordings of the Flute Sonata, most of my discs
> of Otar's music are old Melodiya LPs. Since these are in storage, it's
not
> possible to check contents in detail, but I can cut and paste from my
> record purchase ledger. Apologies for the paucity of performer IDs:
>
> Taktakishvili Choral Works (Taktakishvili)
> Taktakishvili Folk Songs, Gurel Songs (Taktakishvili)
Is this with the Megrelian Songs? Both collections are stupendously
entertaining.
> Taktakishvili Love Songs (Sotkilaba, Namoradze)
> Taktakishvili Mindiya (Dmitriadi/All-Union RO) (2)
> Taktakishvili Musoussi (Levin/Moscow Ch. Mus. Theatre) (2)
> Taktakishvili Mytsyri (Taktakishvili/USSRSSO; \Khachaturian)
> Taktakishvili Nikoloz Baratashvili (Taktakishvili/MoscowPO)
> Taktakishvili On the Trail of Rustaveli (Khurodze)
> Taktakishvili On the Trail of Rustaveli (Rozhdestvensky/URO)
> Taktakishvili Pf. Con. #1, Vn. Con. (Taktakishvili)
> Taktakishvili Pf. Con. #2, etc.
> Taktakishvili Pf. Con. #3, etc.
I have the 3 piano concerti, one on CD (I forget the label)
> Taktakishvili Str. Qr., Five Vocal Poems (BorodinQ, etc.)
> Taktakishvili Songs (Arkhipova)
> Taktakishvili Sym. #2 (Ivanov/USSRSO)
I have this symphony but also lack Sym. 1. Don't you have the violin
concerto? When I'm next at the computer in my music room, which is way down
in the basement, I'll get a full list of what I have.
>
> Many of these I bought from David Canfield of Ars Antiqua, so I imagine
the
> catalogue numbers might all be listed in his Canfield Guide.
About 10 years ago, when I first started contemplating selling my LP's, I
used Canfield's guide to attempt to figure out just what all those thousands
of LP's were worth. Too bad I didn't sell them then. Fortunately, I have a
friend who has recorded virtually all my rare LP's to CD so I don't have to
be bothered with burning my own CD's. I just make copies of his CD's. If I
can't find a buyer soon, I'll give them away to whomever will move them out
of the house - with some notable exceptions, of course, such as the Soria's
I still have.
>
> There are still two items I'm looking for, one symphony, one opera:
>
> Melodiya D 02348/9 Taktakishvili: Symphony #1
> Melodiya D 025643 Taktakishvili: Tri Novelly (Taktakishvili)
>
> I imagine you're already familiar with Onno van Rijen's Taktakishvili
page,
> but I'll include the URL here for anybody interested:
>
> http://home.wanadoo.nl/ovar/taktak.htm
Actually, I wasn't aware of this. Thanks for the URL. I'll visit right
now.
Henk van Tuijl
"REG" <Rich...@hotmail.com> schreef in bericht
news:2itAb.352783$pT1.3...@twister.nyc.rr.com...
> Henk, she may well be a "true professional" and I think her consistency is
> not in doubt :)))), but the question is whether she rises in any respect
to
> be a great pianist of the century. As Tom ant-Semite Deacon points out,
she
> sold a lot of records for Phillips, and its hard not to believe that they
> were paying her back for that by including her in the series. Can you
really
> tell me that there is anything she does "better than anyone else", or so
> distinctively so as to merit that kind of singling out? It's perfectly
> "nice" playing, but nothing more than that imho.
>
REG,
In the fifties Haebler was a radiant young
woman who refused to believe that Mozart
was metaphysics.
To this day I remember the enthusiasm of
those around me. They went to every
concert and recital she gave.
She meant a lot to a large public and in
this sense I can understand why Tom gave
her a place in GPE.
Of course, this doesn't mean that she is
or was the "best". Lily Kraus and Annie
Fischer were certainly as popular in
those days.
The only one whose presence in GPE
I cannot understand at all is Previn.
He isn't even a pianist.
This makes me wonder, why do you bash
Haebler when there is the stowaway
Previn?
Henk
Henk van Tuijl
"Simon Roberts" <sd...@comcast.net> schreef in bericht
news:bqtmn...@drn.newsguy.com...
by the orchestra, her tone doesn't
become ugly when she has to play louder
and there is always this attention for
detail.
After a few Haeblers I am now listening
to Lily Kraus who knows how to keep the
orchestra in the background, doesn't
mind sounding ugly now and then and has
little patience with the smallest of
details.
There are many - good - ways to play a
Mozart piano concerto.
Henk
REG
and the truth is that although I am sure there were lots of commercial
compromises in the set, as there always would have to be, as well as taste,
what I can't reconcile in my own mind is the multiple sets to people who are
already overexposed (ie Brendel and Rubenstein) while other important
pianists didn't get a place at all. Most notably for me, that would have
been Annie Fisher, but there are others. These large library sets are never
made to be sold as a whole, although of course there was some sale on that
basis; it's always forseen that there will be breakups into single units,
and there are too many excellent pianists who were denied that opportunity.
The problem is that Tom has such a sense of personal entitlement that his
"taste" doesn't get examined through any kind of lens of self-criticism.
That's just a personality defect.
So I actually bear Haebler, in honest, no ill-will, though I find her an
extraordinarily small-scaled pianist who will not, I think, be thought of 20
years from now. That's not the issue and no animus is meant towards her.
"Henk van Tuijl" <hvt...@xs4all.nl> wrote in message
news:3fd3173c$0$201$e4fe...@news.xs4all.nl...
deac...@yahoo.com
<hvt...@xs4all.nl> wrote:
>The only one whose presence in GPE
>I cannot understand at all is Previn.
>He isn't even a pianist.
Perhaps you would like to give us proof of that statement.
TD
deac...@yahoo.com
<hvt...@xs4all.nl> wrote:
>After a few Haeblers I am now listening
>to Lily Kraus who knows how to keep the
>orchestra in the background, doesn't
>mind sounding ugly now and then and has
>little patience with the smallest of
>details.
Rudolf Serkin without the beautiful tone is one way of describing Lili
Kraus.
TD
deac...@yahoo.com
>The problem is that Tom has such a sense of personal entitlement that his
>"taste" doesn't get examined through any kind of lens of self-criticism.
>That's just a personality defect.
You are quite wrong.
To begin with, the choice of pianists was NOT mine to make, as I have
said repeatedly over the last 6 years. The choice was made by a group
of "wise men" from the three participating Polygram companies. Some
are no longer with the company, or are working for other majors such
as EMI.
As for "self-criticism", I do my own fair share of it, but most of it
is completely idle, of the "I wish I had done this, or that, or
whatever" variety. That I choose not to launder such self-doubt in
public should be my own business, I think. Indeed, I can safely say
that had the edition been mine alone to make it would have been quite
different. Just how different, however, is not something that has any
particular relevance today.
For the time being, I stand by what I did, when I did it. And you
either like it or you don't.
TD
TD
REG
<deac...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:k4f6tv0i11s9hj1ob...@4ax.com...
REG
not in picking the pianists. Was it in picking the selections, or in
negotiating the deals, etc
As to "for the time being", I assume this means that when the "tail" of your
contract expires, you'll be free to talk,
<deac...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:icf6tv8mb0g9t92o9...@4ax.com...
Henk van Tuijl
> I've bashed (sorry) Previn before. Tom is more than entitled to his taste,
> and the truth is that although I am sure there were lots of commercial
> compromises in the set, as there always would have to be, as well as
taste,
> what I can't reconcile in my own mind is the multiple sets to people who
are
> already overexposed (ie Brendel and Rubenstein) while other important
> pianists didn't get a place at all. Most notably for me, that would have
> been Annie Fisher, but there are others.
There is the problem of Previn, the
problem of multiple sets and the
problem of youngsters like Kissin
and Zimerman, who are great pianists
but should - hopefully - become even
greater in the XXI century, or stop
being considered to be great
pianists.
> These large library sets are never
> made to be sold as a whole, although of course there was some sale on
> that
> basis; it's always forseen that there will be breakups into single units,
> and there are too many excellent pianists who were denied that
> opportunity.
I am a proud owner of the original set
but would have loved the inclusion of
others like Annie Fischer.
> The problem is that Tom has such a sense of personal entitlement that his
> "taste" doesn't get examined through any kind of lens of self-criticism.
> That's just a personality defect.
It would have been nice if Tom had
made more sets with difficult to find
recordings of pianists I believe to
have been great pianists of the XX
century. But I can cope without him.
I have bought most of the Fischers,
Krauses, Bachauers, Brailowskys and
Malcuzynski's I want to hear - and
if I want to hear more I can always
return to the LP.
> So I actually bear Haebler, in honest, no ill-will, though I find her an
> extraordinarily small-scaled pianist who will not, I think, be thought of
20
> years from now. That's not the issue and no animus is meant towards her.
Haebler will be remembered by all
those who did hear her live when she
was in her twenties - and you may be
right that she will not be thought
of twenty years from now, make it
thirty years <g>.
Henk
Dan Koren
For a very simple reason. The inclusion of
Previn in a set of "great pianists" is such
an obvious blunder that it does not deserve
comment.
The inclusion of pianists like Mmes Haebler
and Uchida is a far more insidious problem,
since it devalues the notion of "greatness".
Good pianists? No doubt. But "great"? One
must be either joking or seriously delluded.
dk
Dan Koren
>
> Haebler will be remembered by all
> those who did hear her live when she
> was in her twenties - and you may be
> right that she will not be thought
> of twenty years from now, make it
> thirty years <g>.
>
Henk,
I do remember a lot of women pianists I
heard while in their teens and twenties
who were a lot better pianists than Mme
Haebler -- yet none of them were worthy
of the GGBB. Just for starters, did you
hear Elisabeth Leonskaja or Ann Schein
in their teens or twenties? Much, much
better than Ashkenazy in spielhosen
whom you seem to like so much.
dk
Dan Koren
news:k4f6tv0i11s9hj1ob...@4ax.com...
Proof? What fucking proof do you need?
Previn has not made enough of a career
as a pianist to be counted as one.
Wasn't that one of your own criteria?
dk
REG
performers who are far "better" live than in recordings. For me, I could
NEVER get Novaes in any of her recordings, and yet when a couple of live
things were issued, I felt at least respectful of her, and sometimes more.
Even more to the point is the great Myra Hess...I've never heard a
commercial recording of hers that was anything to make me want to come back
for more, and yet she's close to the top of my list in terms of live
performances.
"Henk van Tuijl" <hvt...@xs4all.nl> wrote in message
news:3fd35628$0$210$e4fe...@news.xs4all.nl...
Matthew燘. Tepper
> "Matthew B. Tepper" <oyţ@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:Xns9449990B99D...@207.217.77.202...
>> "steve wolk" <Bar...@Seville.com> appears to have caused the following
>> letters to be typed in news:CdCdnRtIa-M...@comcast.com:
>>
>> > "Matthew B. Tepper" <oyţ@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>> > news:Xns94496D12C7...@207.217.77.206...
>> >> "steve wolk" <Bar...@Seville.com> appears to have caused the
>> >> following letters to be typed in
>> >> news:7OudndqHQY-...@comcast.com:
>> >>
>> >> > "Matthew B. Tepper" <oyţ@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>> >> > news:Xns9448B22CB9B...@207.217.77.205...
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Steve, you're a gentleman and a scholar. I thank you.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > And a fan of Taktakishvili, too.
>> >>
>> >> When I finally begin burning CDRs of his music, you're on the list
>> >> of recipients. Perhaps the best place to start will be the three
>> >> piano concerti.
>> >
>> >
>> > Bless you. But, before you go to the trouble, we should compare
>> > lists of what we already have.
>>
>> Since (as you know) there's precious little of Taktakishvili's music on
>> CD, apart from at least five recordings of the Flute Sonata, most of my
>> discs of Otar's music are old Melodiya LPs. Since these are in storage,
>> it's not possible to check contents in detail, but I can cut and paste
>> from my record purchase ledger. Apologies for the paucity of performer
>> IDs:
>>
>> Taktakishvili Choral Works (Taktakishvili)
>> Taktakishvili Folk Songs, Gurel Songs (Taktakishvili)
>
>
> Is this with the Megrelian Songs? Both collections are stupendously
> entertaining.
I believe so, but you might also want to look for Russian Compact Disc RCD
16016, in the "Russian Vocal School" series, where tenor Zurab Sotkilava
(I've also seen the name transliterated as "Sotkilava") and the composer
perform it with the State Academic Symphony Orchestra of the USSR; here
they are called "Mingrelian." The remainder of the CD is a grab-bag
recital of Sotkilava performing an odd selection of songs and arias.
>> Taktakishvili Love Songs (Sotkilaba, Namoradze)
>> Taktakishvili Mindiya (Dmitriadi/All-Union RO) (2)
>> Taktakishvili Musoussi (Levin/Moscow Ch. Mus. Theatre) (2)
>> Taktakishvili Mytsyri (Taktakishvili/USSRSSO; \Khachaturian)
>> Taktakishvili Nikoloz Baratashvili (Taktakishvili/MoscowPO)
>> Taktakishvili On the Trail of Rustaveli (Khurodze)
>> Taktakishvili On the Trail of Rustaveli (Rozhdestvensky/URO)
>> Taktakishvili Pf. Con. #1, Vn. Con. (Taktakishvili)
>> Taktakishvili Pf. Con. #2, etc.
>> Taktakishvili Pf. Con. #3, etc.
>
>
> I have the 3 piano concerti, one on CD (I forget the label)
#1 with Jungran Kim Khwarg, Dong Hyock Hyun conducting the Moscow
Philharmonic on Cambria CD-1120, coupled with Balakiriev's "Tamara." The
pianist performed here in the Los Angeles area earlier in the year, without
the "Khwarg." I had a party to go to that evening, but a friend (whose son
had a work premiered on the same program!) got the booklet signed for me.
>> Taktakishvili Str. Qr., Five Vocal Poems (BorodinQ, etc.)
>> Taktakishvili Songs (Arkhipova)
>> Taktakishvili Sym. #2 (Ivanov/USSRSO)
>
> I have this symphony but also lack Sym. 1. Don't you have the violin
> concerto? When I'm next at the computer in my music room, which is way
> down in the basement, I'll get a full list of what I have.
The Violin Concerto #1 is on the flip-side of the Melodiya LP containing
the PC #1. An even better piece is the Violin Concertino, recorded by no
less than David Oistrakh! The Violin Concerto #2, an odd and sparse piece
unlike OT's fulsome earlier scores, has been recorded by Liana Issakadze on
Orfeo C304921A, entitled "Kartuli Musika" (I include these asinine titles
only because they might be of some help finding these CDs), with works of
Sulkhan Tsintsadze, Nodar Gabuniya, and Sultan Nasidze.
>> Many of these I bought from David Canfield of Ars Antiqua, so I imagine
> the
>> catalogue numbers might all be listed in his Canfield Guide.
>
> About 10 years ago, when I first started contemplating selling my LP's,
> I used Canfield's guide to attempt to figure out just what all those
> thousands of LP's were worth. Too bad I didn't sell them then.
> Fortunately, I have a friend who has recorded virtually all my rare LP's
> to CD so I don't have to be bothered with burning my own CD's. I just
> make copies of his CD's. If I can't find a buyer soon, I'll give them
> away to whomever will move them out of the house - with some notable
> exceptions, of course, such as the Soria's I still have.
>
>>
>> There are still two items I'm looking for, one symphony, one opera:
>>
>> Melodiya D 02348/9 Taktakishvili: Symphony #1
>> Melodiya D 025643 Taktakishvili: Tri Novelly (Taktakishvili)
>>
>> I imagine you're already familiar with Onno van Rijen's Taktakishvili
>> page, but I'll include the URL here for anybody interested:
>>
>> http://home.wanadoo.nl/ovar/taktak.htm
>
>
>
> Actually, I wasn't aware of this. Thanks for the URL. I'll visit right
> now.
Glad to help. Write privately if you feel like it.
deac...@yahoo.com
<hvt...@xs4all.nl> wrote:
>There is the problem of Previn
This is not a problem for me; it may be for you.
, the
>problem of multiple sets
Ditto.
and the
>problem of youngsters like Kissin
>and Zimerman, who are great pianists
>but should - hopefully - become even
>greater in the XXI century, or stop
>being considered to be great
>pianists.
Their inclusion was obvious and mandatory. They have few, if any,
rivals, even today.
>I am a proud owner of the original set
>but would have loved the inclusion of
>others like Annie Fischer.
So, include her in your OWN GPOTC
>> The problem is that Tom has such a sense of personal entitlement that his
>> "taste" doesn't get examined through any kind of lens of self-criticism.
>> That's just a personality defect.
>
>It would have been nice if Tom had
>made more sets with difficult to find
>recordings of pianists I believe to
>have been great pianists of the XX
>century.
Lots of things "would have been nice" or "would be nice".
We do not, alas, live in a dream world.
But I can cope without him.
>I have bought most of the Fischers,
>Krauses, Bachauers, Brailowskys and
>Malcuzynski's I want to hear - and
>if I want to hear more I can always
>return to the LP.
Precisely. Whatever my own personal thoughts on the names you mention.
>Haebler will be remembered by all
>those who did hear her live when she
>was in her twenties - and you may be
>right that she will not be thought
>of twenty years from now, make it
>thirty years <g>.
If you actually listen to Haebler, rather than just talk about her,
you may find that your estimate is way off the mark. And highly
dependent upon which country you live in.
TD