First Stereo Recording by Philips?
Ramon Khalona
>
> On Sun, 15 Nov 1998, Enigma NimrodŠ wrote:
>
> > Want to know when did Philips firstly record their
> > music in stereo (successful to release
> > commercially)? And, where was their base to make
> > those stereo recordings?
> >
> I believe they made several stereo recordings in 1956-57 in Amsterdam with
> Eduard Van Beinum and the Concertgebouw Orchestra. There were two Brahms
> symphonies, several Debussy and Ravel tone poems, some Handel and
> Tchaikovsky, and Beethoven piano concertos with Robert Casadesus and
> violin concertos with Arthur Grumiaux.
Van Beinum's Brahms symphonies (1 & 4) are in stereo and were recorded
in May 1958 (#4) and in October 1958 (#1). Nos. 2 and 3 are in mono and
were recorded in May 1954 (#2) and in Sept. 1956 (#3). The Debussy
Three Nocturnes and La Mer were recorded in stereo in May 1957.
"Images" was recorded in mono in May 1954. Mahler's Das Lied von der
Erde and Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen were recorded in December of
1956 in mono (though parts of them sound suspiciously close to early
stereo). Similarly, Schubert's symphonies nos. 3, 6 and 8 were
recorded in June 1955 (#3), and in May 1957 (6 & 8) in mono. All of
these have been released on CD as part of Van Beinum's collection in the
Dutch Masters series (available only in the Netherlands, AFAIK).
--
Ramon Khalona "Die Sechste ist die Keckste"
Carlsbad, California - Anton Bruckner -
Enigma NimrodŠ
music in stereo (successful to release
commercially)? And, where was their base to make
those stereo recordings?
I have gotten a Philips CD which was recorded on
October 1958 in Vienna, it is well balanced,
dynamic and natural sound. Any recording was
recorded earlier than it?
Thanx in advance.
Regards,
Enigma Nimrod©
http://members.xoom.com/nimrodh/index.html
NOSPAM...@homemail.comNOSPAM
[End of Message]
==================================================
Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart (1756-1791)
Concerto for Piano and Orchestra Nr 23 in A Major
KV488: Vienna 2.III.1786
II. Adagio [7'14]
RealAudio 16K HTTP Streaming:
http://members.xoom.com/nimrodh/adagio.ram
Maurizio Polini
Wiener Philharmoniker
Karl Böhm
==================================================
Rodger Whitlock
<NOSPAM-...@homemail.com---NOSPAM> wrote:
>Want to know when did Philips firstly record their
>music in stereo (successful to release
>commercially)? And, where was their base to make
>those stereo recordings?
>
>I have gotten a Philips CD which was recorded on
>October 1958 in Vienna, it is well balanced,
>dynamic and natural sound. Any recording was
>recorded earlier than it?
Some negative evidence: Philips did the recordings of Beecham and the
RPO in Delius that were issued by Columbia, and these were AFAIK done
entirely in mono, even though some have recording dates as late as (I
think) 1957.
Inference: Philips adopted stereo techniques quite late.
--
Rodger Whitlock
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
Emrla
late 70'. By then, the famed RCA Red Seals had been largely deleted,
transferred to Victrolas or were facing the Dynaflex challege. When I shelled
out the extra bucks to buy a Philips record I could be assured of a great
sounding disc. The labels never credited the producer or engineers. I wonder
who this unsung bunch were. EMR
TransfrGuy
>Want to know when did Philips firstly record their
>music in stereo (successful to release
>commercially)? And, where was their base to make
>those stereo recordings?
I know that they recorded several items in stereo in 1957 with the
Concertgebouw Orchestra in Amsterdam, with Szell ("Midsummer Night's Dream"
suite and "Rosamunde" selections) and van Beinum (Beethoven and Brahms Violin
Concertos, both with Grumiaux) conducting.
Mark Obert-Thorn
Daniel Kravetz
> Want to know when did Philips firstly record their
> music in stereo (successful to release
> commercially)? And, where was their base to make
> those stereo recordings?
>
Alrod
>The labels never credited the producer or engineers. I wonder
>who this unsung bunch were. EMR
In keeping with the old Dutch proverb that the nail that sticks up
gets hammered, Philips refused for the longest time to credit
production staff - this ended only recently.
Jaap van Ginneken was the producer/balance engineer, or tonmeister,
who was responsible for the characteristic early Philips stereo sound
- sharp focus on the violins and everybody else blurrier, with less
immediacy and more hall reverb. Philips would spot the contrabasses
not with one mike directly in front of the section leader (a la Decca/
London), or half way between players one and two, but with two mikes
between players one and two and between three and four, which made for
a very pleasant little buzzing sensation indeed. Lots of rosin.
Once having set the balance it was rarely adjusted during a take, and
that remained Philips' philosophy until the early days of digital,
when the company lost its compass completely. Working in familiar
halls like the Concertgebouw and Walthamstow, Philips came up with
glassy, spotlit unblended orchestras, and thunderous 25-foot pianos.
It was a while before they returned to their senses.
Other Philips producers included Erik Smith, son of Hans
Schmidt-Isserstedt and formerly of Decca/London, and Vittorio Negri,
who also conducted quite a bit of Vivaldi for the label.
Now of course, we can look forward to a steady diet of Nana Mouskouri
Sings Snoop Doggy Dog.
Alrod
Bob Benson
was May 27-28 - Eduard van Beinum conducting Debussy La
Mer and Nocturnes, just reissued in a magnificent transfer on
Dutch Philips (462 069). Stunning!On Sun, 15 Nov 1998 02:30:02 +0800,
"Enigma Nimrod©" <NOSPAM-...@homemail.com---NOSPAM> wrote:
>Want to know when did Philips firstly record their
>music in stereo (successful to release
>commercially)? And, where was their base to make
>those stereo recordings?
>
>I have gotten a Philips CD which was recorded on
>October 1958 in Vienna, it is well balanced,
>dynamic and natural sound. Any recording was
>recorded earlier than it?
>
Beaver Lad
Alrod
=================================================
Thanks for the info. Don't forget tonmeister Volker Strauss. After the
death of Jaap van Ginneken (in 1971, IIRC) Strauss took over most of the
Concertgebouw's recordings [e.g. the splendid Wagner preludes with
Haitink], but I'm pretty certain he did a few prior to van Ginneken's
death. Again IIRC, Strauss said (in a Gramophone interview) that he'd made
his first stereo recording (Bartok's Concerto for Orchestra) in 1960;
Haitink's Concertgebouw recording is dated September 1960 in the CD
booklet. Same recording?
The "characteristic early Philips stereo sound" you describe may be
"characteristic", but was not the only type of sound to be heard in this
period. In listening to Concertgebouw Orchestra recordings of the 50s and
early 60s (made with van Beinum, Haitink, Fournet, Jochum, etc.) one hears
several approaches/techniques. Several of the van Beinum stereos (e.g.
Finlandia), and many of the early Haitink recordings (Capriccio Italien,
Vltava, Danse Macabre, Pictures at an Exhibition (the latter scandalously
unavailable on CD)蟻ll c. 1961) have (to these ears) an ideal balance of
depth, presence, warmth, sparkle, focus, and ambience. Some (say, Haitink's
1963 Bruckner 3) have a more distant balance, with perhaps more
spaciousness but definitely less weight. Some are closer, and less ambient
(Haitink's Mendelssohn 4; c. 1963). Even in the 70s, there was a variety of
approaches/"sounds" to be heard from Concertgebouw recordings (compare
Haitink's Mahler 5 of 1970 to his Tchaikovsky 4 of 1978). I've never heard
the Concertgebouw Orchestra in the flesh, alas; can somebody tell me which
recordings best emulate(d) their sound? (Please, no Chailly.) I will add
that I often preferred the sound of their live concerts on Netherlands
Radio to that of their commercial discs! (Haitink is on record as saying
that the hall sounds best with an audience.)
One thing more: apropos early digital recordings: one of the Penguin guides
states (re Dorati's Bartok MSPC) that for a time in the early 80s, Philips
experimented with making purist two-mike recordings of the Concertgebouw,
of which this is one. Anyone know which others were so recorded? Haitink's
Bruckner 9?
One last note on early Philips stereo: in Glenn Gould's radio profile of
Leopold Stokowski, the conductor states that he was asked by Philips to
make some experimental *quadraphonic* recordings with the Concertgebouw in
the early 50s! Whatever happened to these tapes? Here's an interesting area
for research.
Premise Checker
TransfrGuy <trans...@aol.com> wrote:
>On Nov 14, 1998, Enigma Nimrod wrote:
>
>>Want to know when did Philips firstly record their
>>music in stereo (successful to release
>>commercially)? And, where was their base to make
>>those stereo recordings?
>
>Concertgebouw Orchestra in Amsterdam, with Szell ("Midsummer Night's Dream"
>suite and "Rosamunde" selections) and van Beinum (Beethoven and Brahms Violin
>Concertos, both with Grumiaux) conducting.
>
>Mark Obert-Thorn
From Jan van Bart, _Disografie van het Concertgebouworkest_ (De Walburg
Pers, 1989):
27-28 mei 1957. Opname o.l.v. Eduard van Beinum. C. Debussy: La Mer,
NOcturnes, m.m.v. het Dameskoor van het Collegium Amstelodamense. Philips
835001 AY (stereo-LP).
27-28 mei 1957. Opname o.l.v. Eduard van Beinum. C. Depussy: Bercuse
heroique, Marche ecossaise. Philips 835003 AY (stereo-LP).
7-8 juni 1957. Opname o.l.v. Eduard van Beinum. J. Sibelius: Finlandia,
Valse triste. Philips 835003 AY (stereo-LP).
Those are the first stereo recordings with the Concertgebouw. Whether
Philips made other stereo recordings that year, or in earlier years, with
other orchestras, I do not know.
The Szell MSND is 2-4 december 1957 but is listed only as mono. I find no
Szell Rosamunde Concertgebouw listing. The Grumiaux Beethoven was recorded
4 juni 1957 and the Brams 3-4 juli 1958.
This discography seems pretty definitive, though not 100% accurate or
complete regards the great Mengelberg. No shame, though, *NO* discography
is perfect, including my own ones!
--
Tony Movshon
che...@clark.net (Premise Checker) writes:
> From Jan van Bart, _Disografie van het Concertgebouworkest_ (De Walburg
> Pers, 1989):
>
> 27-28 mei 1957. Opname o.l.v. Eduard van Beinum. C. Debussy: La Mer,
> NOcturnes, m.m.v. het Dameskoor van het Collegium Amstelodamense. Philips
> 835001 AY (stereo-LP).
>
> 27-28 mei 1957. Opname o.l.v. Eduard van Beinum. C. Depussy: Bercuse
> heroique, Marche ecossaise. Philips 835003 AY (stereo-LP).
>
> Philips made other stereo recordings that year, or in earlier years, with
> other orchestras, I do not know.
It seems we can pinpoint the date; the recent "Dutch Masters" release
of Van Beinum's Concertgebouw Schubert 6 and 8 lists their recording
dates as 22/25 May 1957; they are mono. It seems that the stereo era
hit Philips' Concertgebouw recordings on May 26th, 1957.
> The Szell MSND is 2-4 december 1957 but is listed only as mono. I find no
> Szell Rosamunde Concertgebouw listing.
Both are from December 1957, according to the Szell "Early Years" box,
and both are stereo.
Tony Movshon mov...@nyu.edu
Center for Neural Science New York University
http://www.cns.nyu.edu/~tony
Jan Klerk
Again IIRC, Strauss said (in a Gramophone interview) that he'd made
>his first stereo recording (Bartok's Concerto for Orchestra) in 1960;
>Haitink's Concertgebouw recording is dated September 1960 in the CD
>booklet. Same recording?
The recording in the Dutch Masters series give van Ginniken the credits.
>
Several of the van Beinum stereos (e.g.
>Finlandia), and many of the early Haitink recordings (Capriccio Italien,
>Vltava, Danse Macabre, Pictures at an Exhibition (the latter scandalously
>unavailable on CD)蟻ll c. 1961) have (to these ears) an ideal balance of
>depth, presence, warmth, sparkle, focus, and ambience.
I agree and don't forget the splendid Firebird-Suite.
I've never heard
>the Concertgebouw Orchestra in the flesh, alas; can somebody tell me which
>recordings best emulate(d) their sound? (Please, no Chailly.) I will add
>that I often preferred the sound of their live concerts on Netherlands
>Radio to that of their commercial discs! (Haitink is on record as saying
>that the hall sounds best with an audience.)
His 1976 Bruckner 7th, Tsjaikowsky 6th, La Mer and the Kondrashin
Sheherazade are very close to the "real" thing.
>
>One thing more: apropos early digital recordings: one of the Penguin guides
>states (re Dorati's Bartok MSPC) that for a time in the early 80s, Philips
>experimented with making purist two-mike recordings of the Concertgebouw,
>of which this is one. Anyone know which others were so recorded? Haitink's
>Bruckner 9?
This sounds very much multi miked. Maybe the Schumann second symphony could
be recorded as such, it sounds as a radio recording.
>
Jan Klerk
jkl...@wxs.nl
Alrod
wrote:
>The "characteristic early Philips stereo sound" you describe may be
>"characteristic", but was not the only type of sound to be heard in this
>period. In listening to Concertgebouw Orchestra recordings of the 50s and
>early 60s (made with van Beinum, Haitink, Fournet, Jochum, etc.) one hears
>several approaches/techniques. Several of the van Beinum stereos (e.g.
>Finlandia), and many of the early Haitink recordings (Capriccio Italien,
>Vltava, Danse Macabre, Pictures at an Exhibition (the latter scandalously
>unavailable on CD)蟻ll c. 1961) have (to these ears) an ideal balance of
>depth, presence, warmth, sparkle, focus, and ambience. Some (say, Haitink's
>1963 Bruckner 3) have a more distant balance, with perhaps more
>spaciousness but definitely less weight. Some are closer, and less ambient
>(Haitink's Mendelssohn 4; c. 1963).
Agreed, but whether they moved in close or included more "hall"
according to what they felt the music needed, for the longest time
only the first violins were really "on mike."
>Even in the 70s, there was a variety of
>approaches/"sounds" to be heard from Concertgebouw recordings (compare
>Haitink's Mahler 5 of 1970 to his Tchaikovsky 4 of 1978).
The early 70s stuff is often superb. The Haitink Zarathustra was
wonderful on LP, though I understand the CD transfer was
disappointing.
OTOH, a lot of the London-based Philips recording of the period is
dull and fairly opaque - Haitink's 3 Stravinsky ballets, for instance.
>I've never heard
>the Concertgebouw Orchestra in the flesh, alas; can somebody tell me which
>recordings best emulate(d) their sound? (Please, no Chailly.) I will add
>that I often preferred the sound of their live concerts on Netherlands
>Radio to that of their commercial discs! (Haitink is on record as saying
>that the hall sounds best with an audience.)
It's very busy, and the hall amplifies audience participation,
"coughing" being a major Dutch winter sport, so the broadcasts tend to
be close-in (Klemperer's Das Lied). I found the early Haitink Mahler
6th very evocative of the hall's personality.
>One thing more: apropos early digital recordings: one of the Penguin guides
>states (re Dorati's Bartok MSPC) that for a time in the early 80s, Philips
>experimented with making purist two-mike recordings of the Concertgebouw,
>of which this is one.
When digital tape came in, the first machines could only record
two-track, quite a jolt for recording teams used to 16-32 track analog
tapes. A number of labels experimented briefly with 2-mike recordings,
the DG Sinopoli/VPO Schumann 2nd, a few of the Sony Maazel Mahler
symphonies, but eventually digital hardware for recording a zillion
tracks became available and they all returned to their wicked old
"fix-it-in-the-mix" ways.
Alrod