Schoenberg, Webern, Berg orchestral pieces
David7Gable
>Fluffy's efforts, as I have heard very good reports.
Karajan wrote a remarkable and surprisingly (because uncharacteristically)
humble little article--it was only a few paragraphs long--when his 2nd Viennese
School box set first came out; it was used in DGG's advertising and must have
come from the LP box, which I no longer have. He talked about the growth in
understanding he and his orchestra both experienced in the course of this
project, above all in the case of the Webern pieces. He remarked how baffling
Webern's serial pieces seemed initially and how he and his musicians gradually
began to grasp their strange otherworldly lyricism. Of course, Berg and
Schoenberg were both in many ways much more traditional "mainstream" Germanic
Romantic composers than Webern. (In part for that reason I think they're also
richer composers.)
Karajan's performances, too, are reasonably impressive, but, with all due
respect, I think you can do better. If Karajan and the Berlin had lived with
the Webern pieces a little longer and really gotten them under their skin,
their smooth as silk approach might work pretty well for the serial pieces.
(See Dohnanyi's recording, for example.) As it is, they're accurate and
sensitive enough but a little tentative. In the big expressionist pieces of
all three composers, Schoenberg's Op. 16 Five Pieces, Berg's Op. 6 Three
Pieces, Webern's Op. 6 Six Pieces, Karajan is simply too smooth and polished
and not remotely Rosbaudian enough. Admittedly, the orchestra is unfazed by
the sheer technical difficulties of the Berg. In that sense, the Karajan
recording is pretty impressive.
Some recordings I really like of some of these pieces include:
Berg, Three Orchestral Pieces, Op. 6
Boulez, BBC SO (Sony)
Boulez recorded this in 1967, and his performance is white hot, as unlike the
late DGG Mahler recordings as could be. In the end, Berg is the member of the
2nd Viennese school who has mattered the most to Boulez--not enough meat on
Webern's radically novel bones, too much Brahmsian academicism in the serial
period Schoenberg--and this is one of the most committed, least detached, least
smooth as silk, most Rosbaudian performances Boulez ever committed to disc.
Together with the recording of the Altenberglieder with Lukomska from the same
recording sessions (never released on CD), this is probably my favorite Berg
recording. Vive Pierre libre!
Schoenberg, Variations for Orchestra
Mehta, L.A. Phil (Decca)
It's a cliche' but the only word I can think of to describe this performance is
"Viennese." The sweet string sound has something to do with it, but even more
it's Mehta's deeply distinctive shaping. This performance is all intensity and
commitment, and Mehta treats Schoenberg's phrases as the Brahmsian Romantic
stuff they really are. (Schoenberg's expressionist period was a post-Wagnerian
phenomenon, much of his more conservative serial music, to repeat myself,
post-Brahmsian.) Karajan--not even Boulez--is in the same league. This
recording was made in 1968. Whatever happened to Mehta?
(1) Berg, Three Orchestral Pieces, Op. 6
Maderna, Northwest German Radio Orchestra, Hamburg (Arkadia)
(2) Schoenberg, Five Orchestral Pieces, Op. 16
Maderna, Orchestra della RAI, Torino (Stradivarius)
Born in 1920, five years older than Boulez and Berio, eight years older than
Stockhausen, this conducting student of Hermann Scherchen was a genial father
or older brother figure to the Darmstadt school of composers and the author of
some rather lovely pieces himself. As a conductor, he was at the very least
Boulez's equal in "modernist" repertory and a much better conductor over a
broad range of other repertory. Unfortunately, he wasn't much of a careerist
and there are few (are there any?) commercial recordings, although he conducted
the Chicago Symphony and a series of Don Giovanni's at the New York City Opera
in the 1960's. These live recordings are somewhat dimly recorded and with less
than first rank orchestras, but Maderna knows exactly what this music is all
about. Was Maderna the Rosbaud of Italian conductors or was Rosbaud the
Maderna of German conductors?
Berg, Three Orchestral Pieces, Op. 6
Webern, Six Pieces for Orchestra, Op. 6
Rosbaud, Orchestra of the Su"dwestfunk (Ades)
These recordings are coupled with a recording of Stravinsky's Agon made
following the European premiere with Stravinsky in attendance--Stravinsky had
boundless respect for Rosbaud, as who wouldn't--and I don't know what to say
about them. "Rosbaudian" has become my shorthand for describing how the
expressionist period pieces of Schoenberg, Webern, and Berg are supposed to be
done. This music was never meant to be licked clean, but it is difficult to
hear and requires a consummate musician to navigate. Boulez has the ear but
there are elements of the style that elude him because it's so remote from his
own post-Manet, post-the impressionist painters, post-Rimbaud and Mallarme',
post-Debussy, French modernist sensibility. Rosbaud has the chops, all right,
and he was one of the two conductors Boulez learned the most about conducting
from, the other being Desormiere, but he also sympathizes with the style, a
stream-of-consciousness style completely dispensing with decorum and formula in
which no flicker of emotion is too anguished or neurotic to express. No, the
orchestra of the Southwest German Radio Orchestra isn't the Berlin
Philharhmonic. But then, Karajan isn't Rosbaud. Nor did Rosbaud wait around
until after Schoenberg, Webern, and Berg had already entered history and become
safe before getting around to learning and championing these pieces.
P.S. There are also some pretty good live performances of this repertory by
Boulez with the LSO from the late 60's on Stradivarius and by Ernest Bour,
Rosbaud's successor at the Su"dwestfunk, with the orchestra of the Su"dwestfunk
on Astree, but I haven't heard 'em recently enough or often enough to comment
on them.
These live Boulez and Bour recordings include performances of Schoenbergs' Op.
16 Pieces, and I also have recordings of Op. 16 by Boulez (Sony), Dohnanyi
(Decca), Gielen (Wergo), Rattle (EMI), Neumann (live on Praga), and Dorati
(Mercury) that I've liked enough for one reason or another to keep. Just don't
ask me to try and sort them out.
If I'm missing any really terrific recordings of Schoenberg's Op. 16, Berg's
Op. 6. or Webern's Op. 6 or any other expressionist period Vienna school stuff,
please let me know.
-david gable
Raymond Hall
news:20010126183303...@ng-fk1.aol.com...
> >I was thinking of getting Karajan's orchestral Webern. Any thoughts on
> >Fluffy's efforts, as I have heard very good reports.
>
> Karajan wrote a remarkable and surprisingly (because uncharacteristically)
> humble little article--it was only a few paragraphs long--when his 2nd
Viennese
Thanks David for a very interesting post on these important pieces. At least
you haven't written Karajan completely off, far from it, and I wouldn't
hesitate to pick his set up cheaply, or in a sale. The other information is
even more useful.
Regards,
# Classical Music WebSite Links :
http://www.users.bigpond.com/hallraylily/tassiedevil2.htm
# Main Page, To Conductors, Jazz Songstresses :
http://www.users.bigpond.com/hallraylily/index.html
# Ormandy page and New Furtwängler link
Ray, Sydney
David7Gable
You're welcome, Ray!
-david gable
David7Gable
I don't know why I asked if there are any commercial recordings of Maderna
conducting when I own three: LP's entitled "The New Music," volumes 1-3,
issued on RCA Victrola in the States. Don't know if these recordings were
licensed from an Italian label or recorded by RCA. The composers represented
include Nono, Berio, Boulez, Pousseur, Stockhausen, and Maderna himself from
one school, Penderecki, Earle Brown, Hans Lehmann, Kazuo Fukushima, and
Haubenstock-Ramati from other schools. The performances of the pieces I care
about could not be improved upon. Maderna's Kontrapunkte is better (more
intensely committed) than Stockhausen's own. (Unfortunately, the Boulez piece
represented, the Sonatine for Flute and Piano, is not conducted by Maderna.
The flutist is Severino Gazzeloni, a veteran of many Boulez and Maderna
performances of the period. Rzewski is the pianist. Maderna conducts Boulez
on a Stradivarius CD.)
Telefunken issued a live 2-LP set when Maderna died, a benefit edition designed
to raise money for Maderna's wife and family. The discs feature a concert with
the ORF Symphonieorchester and chorus, Vienna, with this program:
Messiaen: Et expecto resurrectionem mortuorum
Stravinsky: Canticum sacrum
Boulez: cummings ist der dichter
Lutoslawski: Trois poemes d'Henri Michaux
Many live performances by Maderna have been released on Arkadia and
Stradivarius.
I leave it to somebody else to guide us through the recordings of Maderna's
music.
-david gable
JRsnfld
>I leave it to somebody else to guide us through the recordings of Maderna's
music.<
Good grief, I hope somebody will pick up the ball and deliver even more of
Maderna's performances to CD.
As for studio recordings: remember that Maderna is also the conductor of
Schoenberg's Op. 24 Serenade with the Melos Ensemble of London, on
L'Oiseau-Lyre (SOL 250).
Also, in your survey of Berg-Schoenberg-Webern, I'd like to add a
recommendation for SWF Baden-Baden/Gielen's recording of Berg's 3 Pieces Op. 6
(on Intercord) and Maderna's Webern Op. 6 on Stradivarius.
What do you think of Mitropoulos's Schoenberg Op. 31 (not to mention
Rosbaud's)? Or Scherchen?--his Erwartung, at least, is incredibly
expressionistic.
--Jeff
Nicolas Hodges
>I leave it to somebody else to guide us through the recordings of Maderna's
>music.
Here's a start:
String music: Ardittis, Montaigne MO 782049
Hyperion: Eotvos etc, Montaigne MO 782014
Music of Gaity, Juilliard Serenade, Grande Aulodia: c Maderna, Dischi
Ricordi CRMCD 358182
Violin concerto, oboe concerto no.2, Quadrivium: c Maderna, Stradivarius
STR 10021
Oboe Concertos 1-3: Fabian Menzel, oboe, Saarbrücken RSO Michael Stern,
conductor, col legno WWE1CD20037 (March release)
Oboe Concertos 1,3, Grande Aulodia: Han de Vries (ob), c. Vis/Maderna,
Fabricciani, c. Klee
Oboe Concertos 1-3: Holliger c. Bertini. Philips (1994) 442 015-2
and of course there's that DG disc with Quadrivium and other pieces
conducted by Sinopoli, but I never managed to get it, and it's now oop.
--
Nic
Jon Jao
david...@aol.com (David7Gable) wrote:
> Karajan's performances, too, are reasonably impressive, but, with all
due
> respect, I think you can do better. If Karajan and the Berlin had
lived with
> the Webern pieces a little longer and really gotten them under their
skin,
> their smooth as silk approach might work pretty well for the serial
pieces.
> (See Dohnanyi's recording, for example.) As it is, they're accurate
and
> sensitive enough but a little tentative. In the big expressionist
pieces of
> all three composers, Schoenberg's Op. 16 Five Pieces, Berg's Op. 6
Three
> Pieces, Webern's Op. 6 Six Pieces, Karajan is simply too smooth and
polished
> and not remotely Rosbaudian enough. Admittedly, the orchestra is
unfazed by
> the sheer technical difficulties of the Berg. In that sense, the
Karajan
> recording is pretty impressive.
Karajan did not record the Schoenberg Five Pieces. The op. 31
variations are in that set, however (and a good performance it is).
> Some recordings I really like of some of these pieces include:
>
> Berg, Three Orchestral Pieces, Op. 6
> Boulez, BBC SO (Sony)
>
> Boulez recorded this in 1967, and his performance is white hot, as
unlike the
> late DGG Mahler recordings as could be. In the end, Berg is the
member of the
> 2nd Viennese school who has mattered the most to Boulez--not enough
meat on
> Webern's radically novel bones, too much Brahmsian academicism in the
serial
> period Schoenberg--and this is one of the most committed, least
detached, least
> smooth as silk, most Rosbaudian performances Boulez ever committed to
disc.
> Together with the recording of the Altenberglieder with Lukomska from
the same
> recording sessions (never released on CD), this is probably my
favorite Berg
> recording. Vive Pierre libre!
I agree, this is about the best studio recording of the Berg. Don't
overlook the two Abbado DG performances, though. There's also a live
Boulez performance on Originals coupled with a BBC Mahler 2 and Jeux.
> Schoenberg, Variations for Orchestra
> Mehta, L.A. Phil (Decca)
>
> It's a cliche' but the only word I can think of to describe this
performance is
> "Viennese." The sweet string sound has something to do with it, but
even more
> it's Mehta's deeply distinctive shaping. This performance is all
intensity and
> commitment, and Mehta treats Schoenberg's phrases as the Brahmsian
Romantic
> stuff they really are. (Schoenberg's expressionist period was a post-
Wagnerian
> phenomenon, much of his more conservative serial music, to repeat
myself,
> post-Brahmsian.) Karajan--not even Boulez--is in the same league.
This
> recording was made in 1968. Whatever happened to Mehta?
I still don't think I've found the perfect variations recording.
Gielen on Wergo comes closest.
There is also a 2 CD set on Arkadia of Maderna's Schoenberg
performances (the Variations for Orchestra, Violin concerto, Verklerte
Nacht, and the 2nd (?) chamber symphony).
> These live Boulez and Bour recordings include performances of
Schoenbergs' Op.
> 16 Pieces, and I also have recordings of Op. 16 by Boulez (Sony),
Dohnanyi
> (Decca), Gielen (Wergo), Rattle (EMI), Neumann (live on Praga), and
Dorati
> (Mercury) that I've liked enough for one reason or another to keep.
Just don't
> ask me to try and sort them out.
>
> If I'm missing any really terrific recordings of Schoenberg's Op. 16,
Berg's
> Op. 6. or Webern's Op. 6 or any other expressionist period Vienna
school stuff,
> please let me know.
>
> -david gable
David, there's Rosbaud performances of Schoenberg op. 16, Pierrot
Lunaire, Napoleon Ode, and Chamber Symphony 1 on Wergo.
My favorite Webern op. 6 is Abbado with the VPO on DG. One of his best
recordings, and the most expressive and intense recording of the piece
I know. Levine/BPO on DG is good too, but hampered by disappointing
digital sound. The Schoenberg op.16 that accompanies it is better,
though (Gielen/Wergo is again tops for me in that piece).
Jon Jao
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
Jon Jao
jrs...@aol.com (JRsnfld) wrote:
>
> >I leave it to somebody else to guide us through the recordings of
Maderna's
> music.<
>
> Good grief, I hope somebody will pick up the ball and deliver even
more of
> Maderna's performances to CD.
>
> As for studio recordings: remember that Maderna is also the conductor
of
> Schoenberg's Op. 24 Serenade with the Melos Ensemble of London, on
> L'Oiseau-Lyre (SOL 250).
>
> Also, in your survey of Berg-Schoenberg-Webern, I'd like to add a
> recommendation for SWF Baden-Baden/Gielen's recording of Berg's 3
Pieces Op. 6
> (on Intercord) and Maderna's Webern Op. 6 on Stradivarius.
What else is on this Maderna Stradivarius disc?
TIA,
Jon
JRsnfld
>What else is on this Maderna Stradivarius disc?
Stradivarius STR 13608:
Webern: Sei pezzi Op. 6 (RAI Torino/Maderna)
Malipiero: Pause del Silenzio (RAI Torino/Maderna)
Dallapiccola: Partita (RAI Torino/Celibidache)
--Jeff
David7Gable
>Rosbaud's)? Or Scherchen?--his Erwartung, at least, is incredibly
>expressionistic.
Oh, I put Mitropoulos in the same league with Maderna and Rosbaud in this
repertory. Probably Scherchen, too. That being said, I'm afraid to express
opinions on recordings I haven't heard in a while. Relying on your memory gets
you into such trouble as thinking Schoenberg's Op. 16 was included in the
Karajan box, and I used to own that set! There have been long periods where my
musical diet has largely been confined to Schoenberg and Berg but it's been a
while.
I have an Erwartung with Scherchen from Cologne without the voice part. Is
there any other? (Is that old Wergo LP with half of Erwartung on each side with
Scherchen?) I have the Schoenberg Variations, Op. 31, with Mitropoulos and the
Berlin Phil. Is there any other? What good Erwartung's are there out there?
I hate to say it but my favorite is still Craft's, but I have a few more on CD
in addition to Scherchen without the voice (Boulez, Dohnanyi, Rattle, Neumann
live).
-david gable
Alexandros Rigas
david...@aol.com (David7Gable) wrote:
> >What do you think of Mitropoulos's Schoenberg Op. 31 (not to mention
> >Rosbaud's)? Or Scherchen?--his Erwartung, at least, is incredibly
> >expressionistic.
>
> Oh, I put Mitropoulos in the same league with Maderna and Rosbaud in
Mitropoulos and the Berlin Phil. Is there any other? What good
Speaking of Mitropoulos these are the Schoenberg recordings issued so
far:
1. Piano Cto (Glenn Gould, NYPO, 16 Mar 58, live), CD Nuova Era,OOP
2. Violin Cto (L. Krasner, NYPO, 01 Dec 52), LP Columbia,OOP
3. Violin Cto (L. Krasner, Bavarian Radio SO, 09 July 54,live),CD Orfeo
4. Violin Cto (L. Krasner, Cologne Radio SO, 16 July 54, live),CD GUN-
MAR
5. Erwartung (D. Dow,NYPO, 18 Nov 51, live), CD AS Disc, OOP
6. Erwartung (D. Dow,NYPO, 19 Nov 51), CD SONY (with Wozzeck)
7. Pelleas (NYPO, 29 Oct 53, live), CD M&A
8. Quartet #2 (A. Varnay, NBC, 23 Dec 45, live), CD Urania
9. Serenade Op.24 (Dec 49), LP Count-Esot, OOP
10. Variations Op. 31, (Berlin PO, 21 Aug 60, live), CD Orfeo
11. Variations Op. 31, (Cologne Radio SO, 24 Oct 60, live), CD Arkadia,
OOP
12. Transfigured Night, (NYPO, 03 Mar 58), CD Sony (Japan)
13. Transfigured Night, (Vienna PO, 28 Aug 58, live), CD M&A
I highly recommend both M&A releases as well as both Orfeo releases.
Also the Quartet #2 with Varnay and NBC and the Erwartung at Sony are
not to be missed.
Speaking of Maderna I treasure a 2-CD set issued by Arkadia in 1994
containing only Shoenberg works (Variations, Violin and Piano Ctos
etc.). I regret for not bying that time the complete Arkadia Maderna
series (Debussy's Piano Rhapsody with S. Francois was also there...). I
recently ordered and received from the Stradivarius WWW Site the CD
with Maderna's last concert (Schoenberg Piano Cto and Bartok Piano Cto
#2 with Brendel) as well as an interview by Maderna. A marvelous
release! Also the CD once issued by DG (Sinopoli conducting) is highly
interesting.
Best Wishes
Alexandros Rigas
Athens
Greece
Nicolas Hodges
>Speaking of Maderna I treasure a 2-CD set issued by Arkadia in 1994
>containing only Shoenberg works (Variations, Violin and Piano Ctos
>etc.). I regret for not bying that time the complete Arkadia Maderna
>series (Debussy's Piano Rhapsody with S. Francois was also there...).
This Debussy double set was at Berkshire recently. I have it in front of
me from my last-but-one order. I haven't listened yet, but as I'm
searching out the Fantasy, I'll do so soon.
--
Nic
Alain Dagher
Nicolas Hodges wrote:
That was a short moratorium!
Alain
Nicolas Hodges
I thought you might spot that: I bought it before the moratorium...
--
Nic
Marc Perman
"Alexandros Rigas" <ari...@usa.net> wrote in message
news:958usn$4du$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
>
> Speaking of Maderna I treasure a 2-CD set issued by Arkadia in
1994
> containing only Shoenberg works (Variations, Violin and Piano
Ctos
> etc.). I regret for not bying that time the complete Arkadia
Maderna
> series (Debussy's Piano Rhapsody with S. Francois was also
there...). I
> recently ordered and received from the Stradivarius WWW Site the
CD
> with Maderna's last concert (Schoenberg Piano Cto and Bartok
Piano Cto
> #2 with Brendel) as well as an interview by Maderna. A marvelous
> release! Also the CD once issued by DG (Sinopoli conducting) is
highly
> interesting.
The Schoenberg set on Arkadia was my introduction to Maderna and,
for the most part, to Schoenberg as well - a valuable collection
of much of Schoenberg's more accessible music.
Marc Perman
Lawrence Chalmers
Berg 3 Pieces in a must-get category? Great sale prices at Tower SF
that I passed up.
Marc Perman
"Brian Rourke" <bro...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:tchq7t02td99avunl...@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 4 Feb 2001 00:56:40 -0800 (PST), law...@webtv.net
(Lawrence
the
> Mahler (I don't know the Berg). Hurry. And if you see the disk
with
> Debussy's Jeux, grab it and don't look back.
Put the Mahler set back, return from the store, and turn your
computer back on. These performances are compromised by the
mediocre Italian orchestras. Nothing in the set is on the exalted
level of Maderna's Mahler 9 with the BBCSO, also on Arkadia. Note
that Berkshire has/had the 3/5/7/9 set for $11.96.
Marc Perman