Russian horn vibrato and horn vibrato in general
Michael Schaffer
without conclusive answers, so I figured I tried again. Maybe this time
somebody looks who know the answer:
Where does the wide vibrato used by Russian horn players come from? It seems
it is far less used now than in the 50s-80s. The eraliest recording I know
is the famous Yakov Shapiro recording of Schumann and Brahms where the
vibrato is about 10 feet wide. It says in the booklet (more a single sheet
inly really) that Shapiro was at that time already a long established player
whose style was considered out of date even before he retired in the late
60s. Still, players used quite a bit of vibrato afterwards, if not as much
as Shapiro.
So that style must have been there before the 50s, presumably Shapiro
studied in the 20s or 30s. Was his the first generation of players to use it
or does it go back further? Who introdued that style.
It seems to me that the vibrato style used in other countries in Eastern
Europe may have been influenced by the Russians, at least during the Eastern
block era, or was it the other way around? I also wonder where the vibrato
styles in Dresden and Prague originated, and when. I have a recording of
Böhm conducting the Staatskapelle Dresden in Bruckner 4 in 1936, and there
is no trace of vibrato yet.
abac...@att.net
vibrato IIRC
AB
john grant
"Michael Schaffer" <msch...@gmx.net> wrote in message
news:vA5Ld.134$mt.116@fed1read03...
Good question. I've often wondered what the answer is...
JG
Dontaitchicago
>From: abac...@att.net
>Date: 1/30/2005 10:07 AM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: <1107101230.9...@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
>there
>> is no trace of vibrato yet.
It's my impression, based upon what I have read, that AB is correct about the
French influence upon Russian and other eastern players, including Rumania.
Russian musicians seem to have modelled themselves upon French techniques in
the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, and French horn players
definitely played with distinct vibrato. Check Solti's Decca/London recording
of Tchaikovsky's 5th Symphony with the Paris Conservatory Orchestra from about
1956: the vibrato in the solo horn passage of the slow movement is very wide.
For the Russians, the horn solos in Golovanov's 1952 recording of the Nocturne
from Mendelssohn's Midsummer Night's Dream music on a Melodiya LP are just as
broad.
Don Tait
Eric Nagamine
vibrato that one associates with say Peter Damm. In fact I don't think
any of the pre or post Dresden recordings/broadcasts have that vibrato.
When i heard the orchestra in '96 the co principal used a lot less
vibrato than Damm. Also, I don't know if in Leipzig there is that
vibrato sound after Damm left to go to Dresden in the late 60's?
--
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Aloha and Mahalo,
Eric Nagamine
http://home.hawaii.rr.com/mahlerb/broadcaststartpage.html
Michael Schaffer
"Eric Nagamine" <en...@hawaii.rr.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:KJiLd.1773$BS....@twister.socal.rr.com...
Not much these days, and back then, after Damm left, they played with less,
but most of the orchestras in East Germany did play and still do with a
little vibrato. As did and do some in West Germany (e.g. the Stuttgart and
Munich radio orchestras, check Celibidaches and Kubeliks recordings).
It is interesting to note that Erich Penzel, the long-time principal of the
Cologne Radio and eminent professor of many players in Germany today, came
from Leipzig where he had studied and played in the Gewandhausorchester in
the 50s, and some vibrato in the West seems to have come in his wake.
Who is Max Zimolong? From what time is that recording?
Eric Nagamine
Zimolong was a principal in the Dresden Staatskappelle back in the
1930's. I don't have the recording at hand, but IIRC, the Mozart was
done back in the late 30's.
Michael Schaffer
You are right, I remember the name now and reading that he was the first to
play Strauss 2nd concerto after Freiberg played the premiere. It looks like
the style only started in Germany after the war. I have the feeling it
started first in Eastern Europe, then came to Germany, probably as a result
of more contact between East German and Russian players. But I have no more
detailed info on this.
Dontaitchicago
>> vibrato that one associates with say Peter Damm. In fact I don't think
>> any of the pre or post Dresden recordings/broadcasts have that vibrato.
>> When i heard the orchestra in '96 the co principal used a lot less
>> vibrato than Damm. Also, I don't know if in Leipzig there is that
>> vibrato sound after Damm left to go to Dresden in the late 60's?
>
>Not much these days, and back then, after Damm left, they played with less,
>but most of the orchestras in East Germany did play and still do with a
>little vibrato. As did and do some in West Germany (e.g. the Stuttgart and
>Munich radio orchestras, check Celibidaches and Kubeliks recordings).
>It is interesting to note that Erich Penzel, the long-time principal of the
>Cologne Radio and eminent professor of many players in Germany today, came
>from Leipzig where he had studied and played in the Gewandhausorchester in
>the 50s, and some vibrato in the West seems to have come in his wake.
>Who is Max Zimolong? From what time is that recording?
>
>> --
>> -----------
>> Aloha and Mahalo,
>>
>> Eric Nagamine
Max Zimolong was the soloist in Mozart's Horn Concerto No. 3, K. 447, with
Karl Bohm and the Dresden Staatskapelle on Electrola (German HMV) 78s DB
5628/9, recorded in 1940. There was an LP reissue of it during the '70s in one
of four Electrola "Da Capo" boxed sets that contained all of Bohm's Dresden
78s and there may well have been CD reissues. The LP notes say nothing about
Zimolong. I've always assumed that he was the orchestra's principal horn
player; if anyone knows more I'd love to know it too. He plays with gorgeous
tone and expression and, indeed, no vibrato.
Don Tait
Michael Schaffer
"Dontaitchicago" <dontait...@aol.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:20050131184129...@mb-m19.aol.com...
I checked Böhm's 1957 recording of "Eine Alpensinfonie" with the
Staatskapelle Dresden. There is indeed no vibrato in the horns here either,
with just the slightest hint of it in some trumpet passages. I wouldn't even
call it applied vibrato in the sense of vibrating every note, but more a
specific type of careful tone production which seeks to form a lively
instead of a cold "steely" tone. Even the oboe on the summit doesn't play
with nearly as much vibrato as we know it from later Dresden recordings or
woodwind playing from most places.
A recording of Mahler 1 from Dresden (conducted by Suitner) made in 1963
shows the same playing aesthetic. It seems that the style heard 10 years
later on the Kempe recordings was indeed introduced by Damm and other
players of his generation, most likely under the influence of players from
other Eastern Block states with whom they probably had come into contact
during the 50s. It is interesting to note that this specific style playing
does not mark a departure from the traditional Dresden brass sound, but more
an extension of that style of tone production.
Since Russian recordings of the early 50s show them already playing with
very massive vibrato, it is likely that it started there, although I can't
say when or if there are any obvious influences. Obviously, French players
were already playing with vibrato earlier than that. But I find it unlikely
that the Russians were directly influenced by French players because the
sound is so different, apart from the vibrato.
jult...@gmail.com
My name is Juliusz Herbert Tkacz, principal horn of the Opera Wrocławska in Poland(former German "Stadtheater Breslau"). I have some infos about Max Zimolong (Maksymilian Zimoląg), because he was a very famous Polish-German hornist.
He was born in 1905 in Orzegow, Germany (now Poland). He studied horn at the German State Conservatory in Breslau (now Wrocław Academy of Music, Poland). In 1931 he became a principal horn of the Berlin Philharmonic, but then, because of his argue with phil's administration (maybe because of his jewish roots- that was Hitler's time), he left Berlin and switched to Staatskapelle Dresden. At the time he was also a first horn of the Bayreuth Festival.
After II WW he visited once his home and opera house (now it's my orchestra) in Breslau, but the city just became Polish (known as "Wrocław"). Zimolong was arrested and his german passport taken away. As a Silesian (region at the polish-german border)he could take a Polish citizenship. So he did, as a Maksymilian Zimoląg. Wrocław Philharmonic was in need of a first horn player so he was "forced" to stay (his version). Actually, he probably took this opportunity to became a polish "horn star". He also took a horn professor position at the Academy of Music and played often (both as a soloist and a first horn)with the Polish National Radio Symphony in Katowice, where later he also took a professor position. He was very famous and respected also in other communist countries, for example- was in the jury in a horn competition in Moscow.
In 1958-1959 he taught horn in Tokyo, Japan. He did not return to Poland, but to Germany to join the Stuttgart Philharmonic. He died in 1986.
As a Polish horn player who studied in Germany I've heard about Zimolong from older generation hornists. For example, that he was known as a great teacher, so even other musicians (trumpet, oboe, bassoon players) took lessons from him. Kind of an "Arnold Jacobs style"...
I hope i gave some interesting infos.
Greetings from Wrocław, Poland
arri bachrach
AB
wanwan
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Eric Nagamine