DAN KOREN's TRUE identity
samir golescu
The real name of "Dan Koren" must be Mark Mitchell. The author just
published a book entitled "Virtuosi -- A defense and a (sometimes) erotic
celebration of great pianists". How did I know Mark Mitchell was "Dan
Koren"?
Judge for yourself: "The celebration of Brendel insults intellectualism by
stripping its capacity to elate and to incite wonder;. . . insults the
Romantic virtuoso by painting him as mindless (that is, less an exponent
of mind over manner than the reverse); and insults Beethoven's music by
holding that this one performer, perhaps alone among living pianists, has
its secret." (I actually liked this phrase quite a lot.)
"England has never been known as a country of gourmands. Pleasure, in
Albion, is associated with vice (or, at the very least, decadence), which
may be why virtuosi excite a particular hostility there. England, after
all, is the only country where Liszt was received cooly. . . It is also
where Brendel, Lupu, and Perahia make their home."
Tsk, tsk, Mr Koren, you could have let us known about your book! Mazeltov!
regards,
SG
P.S. Besides my joke with DK being the author, Mark Mitchell's book is a
spicy, risque, full of information in an "unserious" way, but also
full of rushed musical judgments, source of anecdotal riches.
Sometimes the author engages in plainly silly sexual-based statements
frighteningly reminding one the sinister figure of Sissy McScary. E.g.:
<<Perahia, who played first in Florence during an incredible week when
Richter and Pollini also came to town, performed for nearly two an a half
hours - as if, for him, Florence was a sort of locker room in which he
wanted to prove that his musical penis was grander etc. etc.>>
Such rather poor (which is worse than vulgar) imagery does not represent
the trust of the book though. The author knows his Romantic piano history
(he's preparing a de Pachmann biography), and hits the nail on the head
(or the head on the nail, I've never mastered the idiom (-:) while saying:
<<In the end, any musician who places himself behind the Urtext, behind
the Ur-piano, behind history, behind "purity", behind "the composer's
intentions" -- one, in other words, whose pathologically reverential
attitude toward classic masterpieces "does not make them a stimulus
instead of an oppression" [Tovey]--fails the composer as well as
himself.>>
mrt
Mazeltov!>>
Samir, you should be more scientific! Tell me, how many times do the
names Sofronitsky, Richter and Michelangeli appear in the book? By the
way, the harsh criticism of Lupu doesn't sound like Koren.
And about:
<<"The celebration of Brendel insults intellectualism by
stripping its capacity to elate and to incite wonder;. . . insults the
Romantic virtuoso by painting him as mindless (that is, less an exponent
of mind over manner than the reverse); and insults Beethoven's music by
holding that this one performer, perhaps alone among living pianists,
has
its secret." (I actually liked this phrase quite a lot.)>>
Blame the paucity of great Beethoven players, too. Because of that
paucity, Brendel has the field to himself, at least in the recording
studio and in record-store shelves. To himself in the company of the
dead guys, of course. What does the book say about Kempff?
Regards,
MrT
LaVirtuosa
minute that composers actually played their works exactly as written?
I'm reading conflicting opinions from Dan, such as not liking a virtuoso,
albeit reliable, mechanic like Frederec Chiu.
**************Val
Samir quotes Mitchell (stating aka dk),
samir golescu
On Thu, 9 Aug 2001, mrt wrote:
> And about:
>
> <<"The celebration of Brendel insults intellectualism by
> stripping its capacity to elate and to incite wonder;. . . insults the
> Romantic virtuoso by painting him as mindless (that is, less an exponent
> of mind over manner than the reverse); and insults Beethoven's music by
> holding that this one performer, perhaps alone among living pianists,
> has its secret.">>
> Blame the paucity of great Beethoven players, too. Because of that
> paucity, Brendel has the field to himself, at least in the recording
> studio and in record-store shelves. To himself in the company of the
> dead guys, of course.
There is truth to that, but I cannot believe that the spring of great
Beethovenians has dried down with Schnabel, Fischer, Backhaus, Kempff,
Yudina, Gilels, and their generation(s). In fact I know of at least one
other disciple of Fischer, Conrad Hansen, who was a by far, by very far
greater Beethovenian than both Fischer's "decayed" students Woody
Brendellino and Manura-Benz.... ( : Hansen, born in 1908 (I think) was
still playing wonderfully -- with good technique and, if anything, greater
musical insight -- in the 1980s..... why is there no Beethoven cycle of
him, but we get instead the 17th cycle of Brendellini al'Alfredo?
> What does the book say about Kempff?
"one of history's supreme transcribers of Bach"; one of the author's three
favorite performers of Brahms' opus 118 no. 2 (the other two -- Pogorelich
and Rubinstein).
Oops, you're right.... it can't be DK!
regards,
SG
Bob Lombard
"samir golescu" <gol...@students.uiuc.edu> wrote in message
news:Pine.GSO.4.31.010809...@ux11.cso.uiuc.ed
u...
>
> The real name of "Dan Koren" must be Mark Mitchell. The
author just
> published a book entitled "Virtuosi -- A defense and a
(sometimes) erotic
> celebration of great pianists". How did I know Mark Mitchell
was "Dan
> Koren"?
You are obviously mounting a 'pre-emptive counter-attack' (I
just coined that) because you have discovered that dk has a
*published* clone.
bl
Peter Lemken
>[..] In fact I know of at least one
> other disciple of Fischer, Conrad Hansen, who was a by far, by very far
> greater Beethovenian than both Fischer's "decayed" students Woody
> Brendellino and Manura-Benz.... ( : Hansen, born in 1908 (I think) was
> still playing wonderfully -- with good technique and, if anything, greater
> musical insight -- in the 1980s
Not only that, he is actually still alive. He has just recently held a
masterclass in Berlin and a couple of years ago he could be heard playing
the 1st Beethoven concerto with <gasp!> Tzimon Barto conducting.
Peter Lemken
Berlin
--
[...] Von dort oben im Himmel kann man allerdings auch tief fallen.
Und Gott hat keinen Fallschirm. Das gibt vielleicht einen großen
Fleck aus einer Mischung von Weißbier, Sperma und durchweichter
Hirnmasse. --anonymous
Dan Koren
>
> published a book entitled "Virtuosi -- A defense and a (sometimes) erotic
> celebration of great pianists". How did I know Mark Mitchell was "Dan
> Koren"?
No idea. Maybe MM lurked on rmcr for a while and
borrowed my ideas! He certainly sounds like a
smart man :)
> Judge for yourself: "The celebration of Brendel insults intellectualism by
> stripping its capacity to elate and to incite wonder;. . . insults the
> Romantic virtuoso by painting him as mindless (that is, less an exponent
> of mind over manner than the reverse); and insults Beethoven's music by
> holding that this one performer, perhaps alone among living pianists, has
> its secret." (I actually liked this phrase quite a lot.)
>
> "England has never been known as a country of gourmands. Pleasure, in
> Albion, is associated with vice (or, at the very least, decadence), which
> may be why virtuosi excite a particular hostility there. England, after
> all, is the only country where Liszt was received cooly. . . It is also
> where Brendel, Lupu, and Perahia make their home."
>
Many others too. And it's not because of weather or
taxes :) London is the ideal location for artists
whose international careers take them to both sides
of the pond. Other pianists residing there include
Angela Hewitt, András Schiff, Arnaldo Cohen, and
probably many others I don't know about. If memory
serves, Cherkassky too used to live there on the
top floor of some hotel.
dk
Dan Koren
>
> Richter and Pollini also came to town, performed for nearly two an a half
> hours - as if, for him, Florence was a sort of locker room in which he
> wanted to prove that his musical penis was grander etc. etc.>>
>
He doesn't need to do this anymore. His
musical penis has been in plain view for
25+ years now :)
dk
vaneyes
It never gets old. It never gets old.
Regards
samir golescu
...to be 100% honest, I somewhat regret that Mr Mitchell, whose book, I
repeat, presents a fascinating wealth of information and refreshing, if
insufficiently developed/supported points of view, also used some
"debatable", perhaps poor-tasted imagery. I fear critics will focus on
the later instead of the former. It might bring some
publicity, but the serious parts of the book (which I think are worth
attention) might be overlooked....
regards,
SG
____________________
"'Vendee' is no more, Citizens of the Republic. She died under our sword
of freedom, with her women and children. We buried it in the swamps and
forests of Savenais. Following your orders, I crashed the babies under the
hoofs of the horses, massacred the women who shall not give birth to
brigands anymore. There's no one prisoner to have been taken. I have
exterminated everything." (from the report of the [French Revolution's]
general Westermann to the 'Public Salvation Committee', referring to the
[estimated also as] 250.000-victims Vendee genocide patronized by the
French Revolution, genocide including mass-drownings in the river Loire)
Neil
>Other pianists residing there include
>Angela Hewitt, András Schiff, Arnaldo Cohen, and
>probably many others I don't know about
Stephen Kovacevich lives up the road from me, and Sir Richard Hickox lives about
200 yards away. Also Demidenko lives in Cambridge I think.
benjo maso
"samir golescu" <gol...@students.uiuc.edu> schreef in bericht
news:Pine.GSO.4.31.010809...@ux11.cso.uiuc.edu...
>
> <<Perahia, who played first in Florence during an incredible week when
> Richter and Pollini also came to town, performed for nearly two an a half
> hours - as if, for him, Florence was a sort of locker room in which he
> wanted to prove that his musical penis was grander etc. etc.>>
Intersting thought that the length of recitals correponds to the size of the
penis. But if that's the case, I'm afraid that compared to the giants of the
past the pianists of today are in a poor state. From a Dutch newspaper in
the 1920's: "... close at midnight Eugene d'Albert announced his last
encore: Beethoven's Appasionata..." (his recital started at eight). We know,
of course, that D'Albert married six times....
Benjo Maso
LaVirtuosa
>Other pianists residing there include
>Angela Hewitt, András Schiff, Arnaldo Cohen, and
>probably many others I don't know about.
Angela Lear
LaVirtuosa
>penis.
That might actually be true and would make an interesting study for
International Piano Quarterly. However, the question is, "Don't balls count
even more"? That's what they need for just one Chopin etude for example.
Matthew B. Tepper
Any idea why Hickox was replaced with Rumon Gamba for the completion of
Chandos' Arnold symphonies?
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Top 3 worst UK exports: Mad-cow; Foot-and-mouth; Charlotte Church
samir golescu
On Fri, 10 Aug 2001, benjo maso wrote:
> Intersting thought that the length of recitals correponds to the size of the
> penis. But if that's the case, I'm afraid that compared to the giants of the
> past the pianists of today are in a poor state. From a Dutch newspaper in
> the 1920's: "... close at midnight Eugene d'Albert announced his last
> encore: Beethoven's Appasionata..." (his recital started at eight). We know,
> of course, that D'Albert married six times....
Ummm.... too much passion or five disappointed wives, one might wonder?
Matthew B. Tepper
Was it d'Albert who was for a time the husband of Teresa Carreño, and was
that union the source of the alleged quote, "Come quickly! Your child and
my child are fighting with our child!"?
benjo maso
"Matthew B. Tepper" <oyþ@earthlink.net> schreef in bericht
news:9l1dk...@enews4.newsguy.com...
> samir golescu <gol...@students.uiuc.edu> wrote in
> news:Pine.GSO.4.31.010810...@ux12.cso.uiuc.edu:
>
> >
> >
> > On Fri, 10 Aug 2001, benjo maso wrote:
> >
> >> Intersting thought that the length of recitals correponds to the size
> >> of the penis. But if that's the case, I'm afraid that compared to the
> >> giants of the past the pianists of today are in a poor state. From a
> >> Dutch newspaper in the 1920's: "... close at midnight Eugene d'Albert
> >> announced his last encore: Beethoven's Appasionata..." (his recital
> >> started at eight). We know, of course, that D'Albert married six
> >> times....
> >
> > Ummm.... too much passion or five disappointed wives, one might wonder?
>
> Was it d'Albert who was for a time the husband of Teresa Carreño, and was
> that union the source of the alleged quote, "Come quickly! Your child and
> my child are fighting with our child!"?
Yes, indeed.
Benjo Maso
samir golescu
On Fri, 10 Aug 2001, Peter Lemken wrote:
> samir golescu <gol...@students.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>
> >[..] In fact I know of at least one
> > other disciple of Fischer, Conrad Hansen, who was a by far, by very far
> > greater Beethovenian than both Fischer's "decayed" students Woody
> > Brendellino and Manura-Benz.... ( : Hansen, born in 1906 (I think) was
> > still playing wonderfully -- with good technique and, if anything, greater
> > musical insight -- in the 1980s
>
> Not only that, he is actually still alive. He has just recently held a
> masterclass in Berlin and a couple of years ago he could be heard playing
> the 1st Beethoven concerto with <gasp!> Tzimon Barto conducting.
>
> Peter Lemken
> Berlin
So glad to hear it. He must be, what?, 95! If only someone reissued his
Schubert Trio with Rohn/Troester, the Beethoven Third w/ Kerstesz or that
magnificent Brahms First Cto with Fricsay and BPO (you could have sold me
that as a "discovered" Fischer/Furtwangler with little chance for me to
protest!).
regards,
SG
dk
>
> If only someone reissued his Schubert Trio with
> Rohn/Troester, the Beethoven Third w/ Kerstesz or
> that magnificent Brahms First Cto with Fricsay and
> BPO (you could have sold me that as a "discovered"
> Fischer/Furtwangler with little chance for me to
> protest!).
>
No way. You know, don't you, that Fischer never
had one half of Conrad Hansen's technique?
dk
dk
>
> (To the literalists) How can anyone who has
> tried to write music think for one minute
> that composers actually played their works
> exactly as written?
>
> I'm reading conflicting opinions from Dan,
> such as not liking a virtuoso, albeit
> reliable, mechanic like Frederec Chiu.
>
Conflicting in what way?!? I never go for
virtuosity for virtuosity's sake. However,
if you followed my posts, you know that I
said many times that the highest art is
making art disappear -- and pulling that
off requires amazing technique!
dk
dk
>
> Blame the paucity of great Beethoven players, too.
> Because of that paucity, Brendel has the field to
> himself, at least in the recording studio and in
> record-store shelves.
Half and half with Richard (not so) Goode.
> To himself in the company of the dead guys, of
> course.
Count two :)
dk
dk
>
> Intersting thought that the length of recitals
> correponds to the size of the penis.
>
Hhmmm.... I'm wondering how would one apply such
criteria to the many women pianists.
And I'm also wondering why we're even discussing
such a silly -- not to say indecent -- topic like
this.
Just curious....
dk
samir golescu
Every asshole from Juilliard, not to mention pick-pocketers from the
London airport, moves his fingers faster than Fischer.
Hansen was Fischer's best student for other reasons of resemblance--he did
not so much learn from Fischer as steal from Fischer (the only way to
learn from a genius).
Among others, Hansen had his debout with Furtwangler/BPO in 1927, when he
was 21 or something, at Fischer's recommendation. I deplore people who
think cold fishes like Brendullini al'Alfredo or Peter Bonjoura-Volga,
despite their having perhaps served Fischer his coffee in bed, in his last
years of life and ilness, have anything to do with Fischer's uniquely
luminous art. Hansen did.
By the way, Hansen professed all his life that slow movements were more
difficult, more significant when it came to showing someone's mastery,
than speedy things. As an overall performance of Brahms' First Concerto, I
prefer Malcuzyinski/Wislocki, but Hansen's slow movement is unrivalled by
any other I've heard and it has written "Fischer" all over it.
regards,
SG
Dan Koren
>
> That might actually be true and would make an
> interesting study for International Piano Quarterly.
> However, the question is, "Don't balls count even
> more"? That's what they need for just one Chopin
> etude for example.
>
Which one is it? None of my editions mention any
balls etudes (Cortot, Ekier, Mikuli, Paderewski).
And I wonder how would one play it....
dk
LaVirtuosa
>I
>said many times that the highest art is
>making art disappear -- and pulling that
>off requires amazing technique!
Very true; more technique than the piece requires, but I do not find it Amazing
at all to work up a high level of technique. (Jeno Jando was, technically, an
"almost perfect pianist" by the age of 16, according to his own words)
Sometimes I enjoy listening to a good mechanic just to hear their technique
even though I am aware of their interpretive shortcomings. When it comes to
fine art, however, I would rather forgive some occasional unevenness or even a
dropped note here or there if the rest of it is on a high level. (Except for
the notes Martha Argerich left out in the third stave of Le Gibet-the ones that
"toll", as I previously mentioned once, which seems to have nothing to do with
technique, but her choice).
*****************Val
LaVirtuosa
>I'm wondering how would one apply such
>criteria to the many women pianists.
Women with larger chests get all the breaks. However, it is slightly more
difficult for woment to cross the arm over the chest in piano playing because
our breasts get in the way.
>And I'm also wondering why we're even discussing
>such a silly -- not to say indecent -- topic like
>this.
There is absolutely nothing indecent about any part the human body. Ask any
doctor about what a miracle it really is.
************************Val
LaVirtuosa
(about the field of Beethoven players)
(Brendel is):
>Half and half with Richard (not so) Goode.
O'Connor and Kovacevich (who is *not* always overly calculative).
*************Val
Brendan R. Wehrung
Do you take them a loaf of fresh-baked bread once in a while or has
country visiting become a thing of the past in England?
Brendan
Sonarrat Citalis
>> <<Perahia, who played first in Florence during an incredible week when
>> Richter and Pollini also came to town, performed for nearly two an a half
>> hours - as if, for him, Florence was a sort of locker room in which he
>> wanted to prove that his musical penis was grander etc. etc.>>
>Intersting thought that the length of recitals correponds to the size of the
>penis.
::broad grin::
I ain't saying nothin'...
-Snrrt Ctls, yr fthfl srvnt.
Dragon Code: DC2.Mfps+D Gm L12f T2c Phlwlt Sku Cpi+/wh:wh,ebl++ Bic/wa A18
Fr Ni M+ O+ H $- F---! R+++! Ac~ J(r++v--) U+ I+ V---! Q---! Tc++ Df+++!
Neil
>> Stephen Kovacevich lives up the road from me, and Sir Richard Hickox
>> lives about 200 yards away. Also Demidenko lives in Cambridge I think.
>
>Any idea why Hickox was replaced with Rumon Gamba for the completion of
>Chandos' Arnold symphonies?
No idea. I don't know sir Richard !
N.
Sonarrat Citalis
But if Dan had said that first paragraph, no doubt he would have earned a hearty
slap in the face.
Stephen McElroy
dank...@yahoo.com (Dan Koren) wrote:
> LaVirtuosa wrote:
> > ...the question is, "Don't balls count even
> > more"? That's what they need for just one Chopin
> > etude for example.
> Which one is it? None of my editions mention any
> balls etudes (Cortot, Ekier, Mikuli, Paderewski).
G-flat Major from Opus 10?
> And I wonder how would one play it....
I think the original anecdote involves an orange.
Stephen
Sonarrat Citalis
>In article <c1c5ead9.01081...@posting.google.com>,
>dank...@yahoo.com (Dan Koren) wrote:
>> LaVirtuosa wrote:
>> > ...the question is, "Don't balls count even
>> > more"? That's what they need for just one Chopin
>> > etude for example.
>> Which one is it? None of my editions mention any
>> balls etudes (Cortot, Ekier, Mikuli, Paderewski).
>G-flat Major from Opus 10?
Opus 10, Nos. 1, 4, 5, 7, 8, 10, 12; Opus 25, Nos. 4, 5, 6, 8, 10, 11. The very
last one isn't really so bad if the pianist just sits down and looks for
patterns.
Dan Koren
>
> (Jeno Jando was, technically, an "almost perfect
> pianist" by the age of 16, according to his own words)
>
Let's be serious. Jando's idea of perfection is a
lot lower than many people's. There's a lot more
to good technique than speed and power and octaves.
Jando is a pretty good octave shooter, but that's
just about it.
dk
Dan Koren
> Dan wrote,
>
> >I'm wondering how would one apply such
> >criteria to the many women pianists.
>
> Women with larger chests get all the breaks.
How so? Don't recall anything like that being
said in any reviews I read :)
> However, it is slightly more difficult for woment
> to cross the arm over the chest in piano playing
> because our breasts get in the way.
>
> >And I'm also wondering why we're even discussing
> >such a silly -- not to say indecent -- topic like
> >this.
>
> There is absolutely nothing indecent about any part
> the human body. Ask any doctor about what a miracle
> it really is.
>
I never said the parts of the body were indecent, only
the discussion. The distinction may be subtle, but it
is a distinction. BTW I hope you read scores better
than you read English :)
dk
Matthew B. Tepper
Boulevard and decided to "do" a few record stores.
Tower Records in Sherman Oaks has just been forced to consolidate
everything into what used to be the video store, before moving to their
promised new building. (Considering other Tower promises, you can guess my
estimate of whether this is likely actually to happen.) Out of morbid
curiosity, I decided to look around for old times' sake. The classical
selection was absolutely pitiful, about what you might expect to find in a
no-name mall store.
Moby Disc was still closed at 10:47 a.m., despite their posted hours which
say they open at 10:00 a.m. on Saturdays. I guess they don't mind losing
business (the coffee shops and other businesses on that block were already
bustling with customers). Second Spin sold me a sealed BMG club copy of
Volodos' Rachmanunoff Piano Concerto #3 for $7.99 plus tax, the suppressed
Bartok 1939 and Stravinsky Violin Concerti with Mullova and Salonen/LAPO
for $5.99, and one of the few Wiener Philharmoniker Neujahrskonzert sets I
still needed, Mehta 1998 on BMG, marked $6.99, but I looked at the receipt
just now and see they charged me $3.99 for this 2-CD set! I seem to have
good luck buying this series used, particularly on Ventura Boulevard!
Then on to Heavy Rotation (where I bought three of those Neujarhskonzert
sets a few months ago, and they gave me $2 off on each at the counter).
The only items I bought were sealed punched promos of the DGG CD-pluscore,
"Erlkönig: The Art of the Lied," and (here is the first DK connection)
Naida Cole's 1999 collection of French music, here on Decca, marked $8.99
each. But they were having their "Planet of the Lost Interns" sale (and
that's the other DK connection), making it $2 off each CD. And the clerk
pointedly noticed the pianist's good looks!
LaVirtuosa
>I never said the parts of the body were indecent, only
>the discussion. The distinction may be subtle, but it
>is a distinction. BTW I hope you read scores better
>than you read English :)
>
That's the problem with preferring literal interpretations :) There is no
real communication going on, no double entendres, no imagination and no humor;
just emptiness- be it the written word or score reading.
*****************Val
********************val
Bob Lombard
news:20010811164008...@mb-fb.aol.com...
bl
mrt
Bob, romance ain't what it used to be.
Regards,
MrT
LaVirtuosa
>Ouch. I thought you two had something going.
DK and I talk about piano playing; all innuendos are pure and platonic jest.
I hope the discussions are informative and entertaining. (What's good about
giving Dan a hard time is that then previously hidden ideas about music emanate
from him that I curious about). :)
***************Val
Bob Lombard
dk. (Is 'platonic' a real-world relationship?)
bl
Dan Koren
> <<Ouch. I thought you two had something going.>>
>
> Bob, romance ain't what it used to be.
>
It's purely a professional relationship! :)
dk
LaVirtuosa
> (Is 'platonic' a real-world relationship?)
"Business", rather. Some lurkers may be losing patience with some of this
hard-head piano talk. We apologize.
*****************Val
Simon Roberts
"Dan Koren" <dank...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c1c5ead9.01081...@posting.google.com...
Oh dear; that bad?
Simon
samir golescu
On Sat, 11 Aug 2001, Simon Roberts wrote:
> > > <<Ouch. I thought you two had something going.>>
> > > Bob, romance ain't what it used to be.
> > It's purely a professional relationship! :)
> Oh dear; that bad?
Yeah, not to mention the ambiguity on who charges and who's in charge...
Jeremy4960
Ray Hall
I agree DK he needs to be teased to get things out of him. That is why I am
glad you are here, in order to gee him up !!
Regards,
# RMCR Contributor Links :
# http://www.users.bigpond.com/hallraylily/tassiedevil2.htm
# Main Page :
# http://www.users.bigpond.com/hallraylily/index.html
Ray, Sydney
John Thomas
jerem...@aol.com (Jeremy4960) wrote:
> I often wonder if he could he be JBY reincarnated....
If you're suggesting JBY is dead, prepare to be sued by his ghost.
--
-Regards,
John Thomas
jwth...@sonic.net
Sonarrat Citalis
>I often wonder if he could he be JBY reincarnated....
John Bell Young is not dead. What about Abe Vigoda? };)
Sonarrat Citalis
>> (To the literalists) How can anyone who has
>> tried to write music think for one minute
>> that composers actually played their works
>> exactly as written?
>>
>> I'm reading conflicting opinions from Dan,
>> such as not liking a virtuoso, albeit
>> reliable, mechanic like Frederec Chiu.
>Conflicting in what way?!? I never go for
>virtuosity for virtuosity's sake. However,
>if you followed my posts, you know that I
>said many times that the highest art is
>making art disappear -- and pulling that
>off requires amazing technique!
The vibe I've got from you - and I agree with it - is that the basis of a great
interpretation is a superb technique.
Dan Koren
>
> I agree DK he needs to be teased to get things
> out of him. That is why I am glad you are here,
> in order to gee him up !!
>
I'm afraid I don't respond well to teasing. In
fact, I very much prefer to be spoiled -- or
even better, bribed! :)
dk
Dan Koren
>
> The vibe I've got from you - and I agree
> with it - is that the basis of a great
> interpretation is a superb technique.
>
I'm not even sure I would go that far. It
is quite simply complete control of the
instrument to the degree required to
render the music.
dk
Dan Koren
If you don't like 'platonic' you're welcome to
substitute 'kantian', 'sartrian', 'bergsonian'
or anything you like :)
dk
Dan Koren
>
> (What's good about giving Dan a hard time is
> that then previously hidden ideas about music
>
Hhmmm.... I'm curious to find out what makes you
think so.
As far as I can tell, I am a completely passive
listener and I have no preconceived ideas about
music -- or any other art form for that matter.
I treat music exactly the same as I treat food
or drink -- I know it when I like it! :)
dk
Sonarrat Citalis
>> The vibe I've got from you - and I agree
>> with it - is that the basis of a great
>> interpretation is a superb technique.
>I'm not even sure I would go that far. It
>is quite simply complete control of the
>instrument to the degree required to
>render the music.
Which is technique. No technique, and the interpretation falls totally apart.
LaVirtuosa
Henri Bergson? Immanuel Kant? Jean Paul Sartre? Such distinguished self
praise.
**********************val
LaVirtuosa
>I treat music exactly the same as I treat food
>or drink -- I know it when I like it! :)
>
Even an rmcr expert who is highly regarded is, neverthess, expected to
qualify his or her statements of approbation. Otherwise it just wastes others'
time trying to dig it out.
:)
********************Val
samir golescu
On 13 Aug 2001, LaVirtuosa wrote:
> >'kantian', 'sartrian', 'bergsonian'
>
> Henri Bergson? Immanuel Kant? Jean Paul Sartre? Such distinguished self
> praise.
Associating oneself with Jean-Paul Sartre is a form of masochism and
merciless self-deprecation, I should say.....
Remember the famous poem:
<<Jean-Paul Sartre
Is a fartre>>
[quoted by Paul Goldstein]
REG
the running.
"LaVirtuosa" <lavir...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010810092013...@mb-fx.aol.com...
> >Intersting thought that the length of recitals correponds to the size of
the
> >penis.
>
> That might actually be true and would make an interesting study for
> International Piano Quarterly. However, the question is, "Don't balls
count
> even more"? That's what they need for just one Chopin etude for example.
dk
Unfortunately, she competes on her balls alone... :)
dk
"also sprach REG..."
dk
>
>Dan wrote,
>
>> I treat music exactly the same as I treat food
>> or drink -- I know it when I like it! :)
>
> Even an rmcr expert who is highly regarded is,
I'm not an expert, and I despise the very notion
of expertise.
> nevertheless, expected to qualify his or her
> statements of approbation. Otherwise it just
> wastes others' time trying to dig it out. :)
Then don't waste your time. Just put me in your
kill file! :)
dk
REG
probably don't like her because of technical limitations, but I think she's
generally wonderfully expressive in live performance ) that it's difficult
to understand how she got the eminence she did, even though now she's pretty
much left as a pool of melted plastic...kind of like Idel Birit, IMHO,
although Birit doesn't have quite the physical strength.
"dk" <nos...@newsranger.com> wrote in message
news:wWHd7.36$D4....@www.newsranger.com...
Paul M. Johnson
news:YaOd7.10776$l7.26...@typhoon.nyc.rr.com...
> Yes, she's one of those players (Gina, not beloved, wonderful Myra - you
> probably don't like her because of technical limitations, but I think
she's
> generally wonderfully expressive in live performance ) that it's difficult
> to understand how she got the eminence she did, even though now she's
pretty
> much left as a pool of melted plastic...kind of like Idel Birit, IMHO,
> although Birit doesn't have quite the physical strength.
Judging just from the one performance of hers that I have (had,
rather), the Brahms Piano Conc. #2 (Dorati), I wouldn't be
surprised by any amount of eminence. Listening to the
Richter/Leinsdorf this evening, it seemed to me that the
Bachauer was interpretively superior. In some of the most
crucial passages of the first movement, Richter feels
hurried where Bachauer knows where to stop and smell
the rubato. And in the third movement, the contrast between
a fully human voice (the cello) and Richter's uninvolved piano
is almost distressing. Bachauer's involvement in that
conversation, on the other hand, is manifest.
Paul J.
LaVirtuosa
>Bachauer knows where to stop and smell
>the rubato.
Just before she tramples it to death.
> Bachauer's involvement in that
>conversation, on the other hand, is manifest.
>
Like talking to Stalin.
************************Val
mrt
I agree. She's brutal. That's not what the piano is for.
Regards,
MrT
Sonarrat Citalis
>Yes, she's one of those players (Gina, not beloved, wonderful Myra - you
>probably don't like her because of technical limitations, but I think she's
>generally wonderfully expressive in live performance ) that it's difficult
>to understand how she got the eminence she did, even though now she's pretty
>much left as a pool of melted plastic...kind of like Idel Birit, IMHO,
>although Birit doesn't have quite the physical strength.
Biret can hammer it out when she's in the mood. I can't figure out what makes
her complete Rachmaninoff so uneven: sometimes utterly humorless, sometimes
drained, sometimes bright and cheerful with a gypsy flavor, sometimes
individual, sometimes derivative even within the confines of each individual
work. Her Prelude Op. 32 No. 13 is so excessive I can't help but love it.
REG
with IB, and opinions change - I heard her live very early in her American
career, and perhaps that wasn't a fair assessment.
"Sonarrat Citalis" <sona...@fairytales.composer> wrote in message
news:2f3e7.558$2u.2...@www.newsranger.com...
Sonarrat Citalis
>I will take a listen to what you recommend - it's been a long time for me
>with IB, and opinions change - I heard her live very early in her American
>career, and perhaps that wasn't a fair assessment.
I'm trying to figure her out myself. Her Saint-Saëns concerti with Wit are
exactly like Collard's, but her Boulez sonatas are quite good. What did you
hear early in her career? Dubal mentions that she recorded the Ravel Gaspard
and the Berlioz-Liszt on the Finnadar label.
REG
Op 5 (?), and some desultory listening to recordings since then - not
really a fair assessment, so I will try again.
"Sonarrat Citalis" <sona...@fairytales.composer> wrote in message
news:%A6e7.679$2u.2...@www.newsranger.com...
Sonarrat Citalis
>It was a live performance here in NYC, all I remember is some Brahms, maybe
>Op 5 (?), and some desultory listening to recordings since then - not
>really a fair assessment, so I will try again.
The Op. 5 is the F minor sonata: she has recorded the complete Brahms, Chopin
and Rachmaninoff in the past decade. If I had to pick one CD of hers it would
be the Rachmaninoff Etudes-Tableaux, which will basically tell you all you need
to know about Biret.
Josh Meier
Maybe not "brutal"... but her three movements from Petrushka on
Mercury are not among my top choices. But Gielgud alone is a decent
reason to buy and keep that CD.
Josh
Ray Hall
| Tue, 14 Aug 2001 09:45:32 GMT, REG scratched into my forehead:
|
| >I will take a listen to what you recommend - it's been a long time for me
| >with IB, and opinions change - I heard her live very early in her
American
| >career, and perhaps that wasn't a fair assessment.
|
| I'm trying to figure her out myself. Her Saint-Saëns concerti with Wit
are
| exactly like Collard's, but her Boulez sonatas are quite good. What did
you
| hear early in her career? Dubal mentions that she recorded the Ravel
Gaspard
| and the Berlioz-Liszt on the Finnadar label.
What is it about Collard that you don't like? I recently bought the
Collard/Previn EMI twofer of the Saint-Saëns piano concertos, plus a very
good Africa fantaisie and Wedding Cake caprice-valse, and enjoy them
immensely. Memories of Ciccolini's earlier set I had have all but
disappeared. Not that Ciccolini was at all bad, but Collard is far superior
imho.
Sonarrat Citalis
>What is it about Collard that you don't like?
I like him, I just said Biret's are like his.
>I recently bought the
>Collard/Previn EMI twofer of the Saint-Saëns piano concertos, plus a very
>good Africa fantaisie and Wedding Cake caprice-valse, and enjoy them
>immensely. Memories of Ciccolini's earlier set I had have all but
>disappeared. Not that Ciccolini was at all bad, but Collard is far superior
>imho.
The one I have is Tacchino. It's not at all bad, but I like a LOT more fire.
Rubinstein is the best SS2 player I've heard.
LaVirtuosa
>her three movements from Petrushka on
>Mercury are not among my top choices. But Gielgud alone is a decent
>reason to buy and keep that CD.
>
Absolutely my *only* reason.
*******************Val
Bob Lombard
> The one I have is Tacchino. It's not at all bad, but I like
a LOT more fire.
> Rubinstein is the best SS2 player I've heard.
>
> -Snrrt Ctls, yr fthfl srvnt.
>
Which leads me to believe you haven't heard the
Gilels/Cluytens recording of the 2nd. It's pretty early
Gilels, the technique without the reserve, damn the torpedoes.
bl
Dan Koren
>
> Tsk, tsk, Mr Koren, you could have let us known about your book! Mazeltov!
>
The flaw in your argument is that I have
no true identity whatsoever. I'm merely a
figment of my own imagination :)
dk
dk
of course he hasn't heard it. only
older guys like you and me remember it :)
dk
dk
>
> What is it about Collard that you don't like?
>
Is there anything to like? His Fauré is so bad
it's obscene.
dk
vladimir
- Phil Caron
Ray Hall
I haven't heard Collard's Fauré, but his Saint-Saėn's PCs come off very well
to these ears. And no ... I don't need new ones !!!
<g>
Paul M. Johnson
> Paul Johnnson wrote,
>
> >Bachauer knows where to stop and smell
> >the rubato.
>
> Just before she tramples it to death.
>
> > Bachauer's involvement in that
> >conversation, on the other hand, is manifest.
> >
>
> Like talking to Stalin.
>
> is for."]
Well, I'm stunned. But then Schonberg backs me up, sort of:
"When she gave her New York debut in 1950, she was entirely
unknown. Usually there is word of mouth about a talented artist,
but nobody apparently had heard a thing about this lady from
Greece. Bachauer stunned the New York critics with her
tremendous technique, her grand style and big, singing line,
the breadth of her conceptions and her affinity for all periods
of music. Not since the great days of Carreno had there been
a woman who so "played like a man."...
Unlike most modern pianists she was a romantic with a
virtuoso approach to the keyboard. Like Horowitz, she was
a throwback. Unlike Horowitz, she played in an unmannered,
unaffected way, never placing effect above substance...."
Paul J.
P.S. My spellcheck just now wanted to change "Schonberg"
to "schoolbag". Make of that what you will.
P.P.S Oh, God. The Fates conspire against me. Now my
spellcheck suggests I change "Bachauer" to "basher". I
might as well surrender now.
P.P.P.S. This is unbelievable! Now it suggests changing
"Carreno" to "carrion". What chutzpah! Where does one
go about getting a spellcheck with less attitude?
Dan Koren
> "dk" <nos...@newsranger.com> wrote in message
> news:ECoe7.1827$2u.3...@www.newsranger.com...
> | "also sprach Ray Hall..."
> | >
> | > What is it about Collard that you don't like?
> | >
> |
> | Is there anything to like? His Fauré is so bad
> | it's obscene.
>
>
The Saint-Saėns PC's are passable, though not great.
However, playing bad Fauré is such a horrible crime
that it cannot be redeemed by anything else one may
have recorded :))
dk
MrT
that it cannot be redeemed by anything else one may
have recorded :))>>
On the other hand, playing *good* Fauré seems awfully hard -- to judge
by the many people who have tried and failed. It's very elusive, even
weird, music. There's a lot more than meets the eye.
Regards,
MrT
vladimir
(snip)
>P.S. My spellcheck just now wanted to change "Schonberg"
>to "schoolbag". Make of that what you will.
>P.P.S Oh, God. The Fates conspire against me. Now my
>spellcheck suggests I change "Bachauer" to "basher". I
>might as well surrender now.
>P.P.P.S. This is unbelievable! Now it suggests changing
>"Carreno" to "carrion". What chutzpah! Where does one
>go about getting a spellcheck with less attitude?
>
I had to teach my spellchecker "duh".
Rajeev Aloysius
> "LaVirtuosa" <lavir...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20010813232534...@ng-cn1.aol.com...
> > Paul Johnnson wrote,
> >
brilliant pianist. With pianists like Richter, Cziffra and Katchen in
the past, I would say that Bachauer was neither. All things being
relative.
Regards
Rajeev Aloysius
raj...@starmail.com
LaVirtuosa
(quoted review about Bachauer)
>tremendous technique, her grand style and big, singing line,
>the breadth of her conceptions and her affinity for all periods
>of music. Not since the great days of Carreno had there been
>a woman who so "played like a man."...
I've heard piano students in competitions with all of the above qualities who
still did not know how to *touch* a piano; some people never learn how after
playing all their lives. Gina Bachauer was apparently not able to form a high
goal for herself in regards to the actual sounds produced by her hands. In
other words, she had no concept of what to do with her "tremendous technique",
so she abused the piano instead.
**************************Val
***************************val
LaVirtuosa
>On the other hand, playing *good* Fauré seems awfully hard
Not for lefties and embidextrous ones :)
****************************Val
Dan Koren
> <<However, playing bad Fauré is such a horrible crime
> that it cannot be redeemed by anything else one may
> have recorded :))>>
>
> On the other hand, playing *good* Fauré seems awfully
> hard --
Just like playing good Chopin or Albeniz :)
> to judge by the many people who have tried and failed.
> It's very elusive, even weird, music.
It's not elusive at all, nor is it weird. The problem is
that it requires people to play very fluidly and ignore
the bars. That is *very* hard -- even for the French :)
> There's a lot more than meets the eye.
Or the pedal :)
dk
dk
>
> Gina Bachauer was apparently not able to form a
> high goal for herself in regards to the actual
> sounds produced by her hands. In other words,
> she had no concept of what to do with her
> "tremendous technique", so she abused
> the piano instead.
>
Or maybe she had the wrong concept. What did
you expect anyway? She was a Barbarian through
and through, just like her friends Annie Fischer
and Elly Ney.
dk
Sonarrat Citalis
>>On the other hand, playing *good* Fauré seems awfully hard
>Not for lefties and embidextrous ones :)
I'm a rightie, and I can play Fauré all right. Something to consider: Fauré
compared with Medtner. Rhythmically they use similar syncopations, although
Medtner adds counterpoint to the formula while Fauré plays the part of
songwriter. Medtner's Sonata-Ballade in F# is especially close to Fauré. They
are also willing to lapse into heavy dissonance for the sake of resolution:
compare Fauré's middle-period D flat nocturne with Medtner's late
Sonata-Reminiscenza Op. 53 No. 1.
-Snrrt Ctls, yr fthfl srvnt.
Dragon Code: DC2.Mfps+D Gm L12f T2c Phlwlt Sku Cpi+/wh:wh,ebl++ Bic/wa A18
dk
>
> Medtner's Sonata-Ballade in F# is especially close
> to Fauré. They are also willing to lapse into heavy
> dissonance for the sake of resolution: compare Fauré's
> middle-period D flat nocturne with Medtner's late
> Sonata-Reminiscenza Op. 53 No. 1.
>
No comparison.
dk
Steve Emerson
>
> MrT wrote,
>
> >On the other hand, playing *good* Fauré seems awfully hard
>
> Not for lefties and embidextrous ones :)
I think the problem is in the intellect, not the fingers. Yes? Making
sense of everything that's in this music is difficult, and the
difference is dramatic when it happens. I have yet to hear anyone who's
on a par with Marguerite Long in the solo works, including Sanchez.
SE.
LaVirtuosa
> She was a Barbarian through
Just one look at her massive forearms makes me want to run for cover. However,
Lilya Zilberstein has those kinds of arms but can at least check herself
before mashing the keyboard.
*****************Val
LaVirtuosa
>Something to consider: Fauré
>compared with Medtner.
Not much in common. The whole mood is different, and Faure is really meant for
a medium to large room rather than the concert stage.
*********************V
LaVirtuosa
(about Faure)
>I think the problem is in the intellect, not the fingers.
Also true, being *very* French. Faure was, however, ambidextrous in real life.
I play Faure's music from time to time and find it very easy to play the
notes, as they are laid out in a nice way for the keyboard; the challenge for
anyone is to maintain reserve and elegance during those few times when the
writing becomes thicker and more involved.
*********************************Val
LaVirtuosa
(About Faure)
>it requires people to play very fluidly and ignore
>the bars.
Very important; that is also true of Chopin.
****************************Val
Dan Koren
>
> I play Faure's music from time to time
>
Not all the time?
dk
Dan Koren
I beg to disagree. Marguerite Long cannot hold a
candle to Sanchez. And you will be surprised when
Naida Cole gets around to recording some Fauré
nocturnes. The D-flat major she played last year
in Las Vegas was nothing short of miraculous. It
was on an entirely different level even than
Sanchez! That performance alone makes her a
greater pianist to my ears than anyone I heard
since Richter.
dk
Theorem Prover
>
> Every asshole from Juilliard, not to
> mention pick-pocketers from the London
> airport, moves his fingers faster than
> Fischer.
>
What makes you so sure about the
ass-holiness of the Juilliards?
dk