Godowsky surprise

[eric....@gmail.com]

The other day I was surprised to find that Godowsky's otherwise-exemplary recording of Chopin's Nocturne Op.9/1 omits bars m27-34.

I assume this was done to make it fit on a single side.

Regards,
Eric Grunin

[td]

On Apr 3, 4:56 pm, eric.gru...@gmail.com wrote:
> The other day I was surprised to find that Godowsky's otherwise-exemplary recording of Chopin's Nocturne Op.9/1 omits bars m27-34.
>
> I assume this was done to make it fit on a single side.

He doesn't do anything interesting with the other bars. That's the
real problem.

TD

[arri bachrach]

yes, the real problem with almost all of his recordings is that his
playing is musically very disapponting. Uninteresting is a good way to
describe the playing.

AB

[Alan Cooper]

arri bachrach <abach...@gmail.com> wrote in
news:07424463-c311-4a57...@n4g2000vbv.googlegroups.com:

I remember having heard/read that Godowsky tended to stiffen up when
recording and even in concert. Supposedly the best time to hear him was
in informal settings, where he was astonishing. If he could actually
play the stuff he wrote, that's enough evidence for me :-) Too bad no
recordings seem to exist of those ad hoc performances.

AC

[Mndryka]

Why did you put them in a Great Pianists volume? I mean, why are they
historically important?

Sometimes I think I see a resemblance between Pollini and Godowski in
the nocturnes, I'm not sure though.

[Mandryka]

Woops. That question was aimed at Tom of course.

[David Fox]

I mostly agree with the above, but I believe there are a few recordings
that provide glimpses of the real Godowsky. For example, listen to his
1925 recording of his own transcription of "Morgensuss" from Schubert's
"Die Schoen Mullerin" (available on "The Complete Godowsky Recordings,
Vol 3" of the Marston series, Disc 1 Track 15, as well as on the
Godowsky GPOC Volume, Disc 1 Track 16). Perhaps he should have recorded
more of his own works and transcriptions and less standard repertoire.

DF

[arri bachrach]

On Apr 5, 12:32 pm, David Fox <davidfox2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On 4/5/13 5:19 AM, Alan Cooper wrote:
>
>
>
>
>

> > arri bachrach <abachra...@gmail.com> wrote in

yes, the Schubert is very beautiful.......
AB

[Steve Emerson]

In article <XnsA19954B019F54am...@209.197.15.254>,

Alan Cooper <amcoo...@SPAMoptonline.net> wrote:

> I remember having heard/read that Godowsky tended to stiffen up when
> recording and even in concert. Supposedly the best time to hear him was
> in informal settings, where he was astonishing. If he could actually
> play the stuff he wrote, that's enough evidence for me :-) Too bad no
> recordings seem to exist of those ad hoc performances.

The one thing I've heard that is pretty much a knockout is his Beethoven
"Les Adieux." Not to be missed.

The wisdom that his Grieg is immortal, has not been borne out in my
listening.

SE.

[td]

Does it outdo Friedrich Gulda from the 1950s, Decca?

TD

[arri bachrach]

On Apr 9, 4:17 am, td <tomdedea...@mac.com> wrote:
> Does it outdo Friedrich Gulda from the 1950s, Decca?
>
> TD

of course it does.

AB

[Steve Emerson]

In article <192fb409-7ab9-4fa0...@googlegroups.com>,
td <tomde...@mac.com> wrote:

> Does it [Godowsky's Beethoven Les Adieux] outdo Friedrich Gulda from
> the 1950s, Decca?

You're on your own on that one; I haven't heard it, only the later one,
the Amadeo. The compilers of the GPOC series elected not to include any
Beethoven sonatas in their generous helping of Gulda (4 CDs), smiley.

But we both know that if there's a certain level of interest to the
performance, "outdo" is not an applicable term.

Zoltan Kocsis, among others, did a fine Op 81a, btw and imo.

SE.

[td]

And not for trying! You can only squeeze so much onto two CDs, regardless of the prestigious names exerting pressure to add Les Adieux.

I suggest you try to listen to it, Steve.

TD

[td]

So spake someone who hasn't heard it.

No matter; he's deaf anyway.

TD

[David Fox]

Agreed. I have no idea what "outdo" means once performers reach a
certain level of accomplishment. Beyond that there is only taste.

DF

[td]

That's certainly one way of looking at it.

You have, of course,to allow for the recording medium, which was primitive, and the conditions, which must have been trying. (Schnabel spoke to that a little later). Gulda had better conditions, clearly. And he was very young at the time, not an old man struggling with new-fangled tedious technology.

All that said, I have rarely found Godowsky anything but uptight as a performer. The rare occasions are those two unpublished transcriptions of Schubert, tge Grieg Ballade, etc.

Apart from the comparison, which may be invidious, the Gulda Op. 81a is pretty terrific. No excuses or special pleading needed.

TD

[Steve Emerson]

In article <ac92e371-6934-4ab0...@googlegroups.com>,

td <tomde...@mac.com> wrote:

> And not for trying! You can only squeeze so much onto two CDs,

Which, as mentioned, are in this case four.

> regardless of
> the prestigious names exerting pressure to add Les Adieux.
>
> I suggest you try to listen to it, Steve.

Sure. BTW, the Godowsky Op 81a is included in LG's GPOC set, along with
the Grieg, which as I said I find less interesting than the Les Adieux.
So you can listen to the latter pretty easily, I would think.

SE.

[td]

On Apr 9, 9:50 pm, Steve Emerson <eme...@n-n-nospamsonic.net> wrote:
> In article <ac92e371-6934-4ab0...@googlegroups.com>,
>

>  td <tomdedea...@mac.com> wrote:
> > And not for trying! You can only squeeze so much onto two CDs,
>
> Which, as mentioned, are in this case four.
>
> > regardless of
> > the prestigious names exerting pressure to add Les Adieux.
>
> > I suggest you try to listen to it, Steve.
>
> Sure. BTW, the Godowsky Op 81a is included in LG's GPOC set, along with
> the Grieg, which as I said I find less interesting than the Les Adieux.
> So you can listen to the latter pretty easily, I would think.

I have known it for years, Steve, as you can imagine.

Were you suggesting otherwise?

TD

[Steve Emerson]

In article
<ad89639d-004a-4353...@e5g2000yqa.googlegroups.com>,

Not at all. Merely to suggest how easy it would be to answer your own
question whether it outdid the early Gulda. And, perhaps, who knows, to
reconsider whether it's up their with Godowski's Grieg, or as I think,
more noteworthy.

SE.

[td]

On Apr 11, 4:11 pm, Steve Emerson <eme...@n-n-nospamsonic.net> wrote:
> In article

> <ad89639d-004a-4353-a3b8-fa914ac3e...@e5g2000yqa.googlegroups.com>,

The question was asked of others, I think. My own mind is made up.

Godowsky's "pinched" musicianship on recordings (and apparently also
in recital) is quite mystifying to me. What was wrong with his
make=up, I wonder?

I would suggest that the same kind of inhibitions struck Jorge Bolet,
who was only rarely "en forme" even "live" and almost never in the
studio.

Perhaps it was an unhealthy aim to be perfect?

TD

[JohnGavin]

I've always believed that is precisely why Godowsky did not do well on recordings. If you study the scores of his compositions, with its myriad markings, very detailed pedal and alternate pedal indications etc. you see an ultra-meticulous mind at work. It strikes me that this fastidious loyalty to precision and complexity precluded, at least at times, enough spontaneity and ease to play before the microphones and breathe easily.

On the other hand, testimonies of his greatness as a performer are out there, and I think you get strong hints of this in his recording of La Leggierezza, Chopin Scherzo #4 and the Grieg Ballade, among others.

[Mandryka]

On Apr 9, 5:50 am, Steve Emerson <eme...@n-n-nospamsonic.net> wrote:
> In article <XnsA19954B019F54amcooperoptonline...@209.197.15.254>,

>  Alan Cooper <amcoope...@SPAMoptonline.net> wrote:
>
> > I remember having heard/read that Godowsky tended to stiffen up when
> > recording and even in concert.  Supposedly the best time to hear him was
> > in informal settings, where he was astonishing.  If he could actually
> > play the stuff he wrote, that's enough evidence for me :-)  Too bad no
> > recordings seem to exist of those ad hoc performances.
>
> The one thing I've heard that is pretty much a knockout is his Beethoven
> "Les Adieux." Not to be missed.
>
> The wisdom that his Grieg is immortal, has not been borne out in my
> listening.
>
> SE.

Well I think I must like the ballade recording more than you. Having
said that, I think I like Sigurd Slattebrekk more.

[td]

And we have the testimony of Abram Chasins, among others. The hints in
the recordings you mention would hardly get him First Prize at the
coming Van Cliburn Competition.

Incidentally, perhaps according to your estimate MAH is an even
greater pianist than LG. He is both perfect in recital AND on
recordings. And recent events in his personal life seem to have
brought about an increased readiness to go out on a limb in
performance at least which is truly heartening for his admirers. But
just on the level of pianistic perfection there are very few who can
come close to his level of perfection at the keyboard.

TD

[arri bachrach]

anybody who disagrees with you is 'deaf'. maybe you are the deaf one.

AB

[td]

Possible. But unlikely.

TD

[wagnerfan]

Thats a good one coming from an old fraud who calls customers
complaining about SONY packaging for the Wagner Box "whiners" when he
hasn't seen the product himself. Of course not knowing what he is
talking about has never stopped him in the past!!!! Wagner fan

[td]

Nothing stops me, Dickie-bird.

Not even you and your perpetual search for yourself.

First it was Richard Loeb (yeah, sure, evoke a real sicko!), then WagnerFan (a jew hater!) and now it's Jay Kaufman. But still a hopeless opera queen who still dreams he was riding on a motorcycle with a dead, Wagnerite with a limp.

Identity crisis? Or what???

Whiner!

TD

[arri bachrach]

for 'level of perfection' Voldos is the superior, even though TD
thinks that Volodos is 'stupid'!

AB

[td]

In your dreams!

TD

[Jay Kauffman]

You are so fucking easy it's laughable. I thought you were going to ignore me but you control yourself the same way you control your bladder! If you think you make yourself look like anything but a bitter old fool who did rent boys in Holland while you were suing the radio station that fired you (oh yes fired by the person you hired) then you are more delusionalthan I thought. You just keep living in the past because that's all you have (and that past is a combination of sticking your nose up Fine,s butt at Mercury and acting like an expert while others laughed at you behind your back. And heres a little reality check for you. The kindness that Peter Hofmann showed me is a human feeling beyond you and the tributes when he died will be nothing like the collective sighs of relief when you have your well deserved stroke. Now let's see if you can ignore that you ridiculous slob HAHa

[wagnerfan]

Look Leakin Deacon lives in some alternate universe where he
actually thinks his opinions matter or have any worth whatsoever -
he's all washed up. Wagner Fan

[Gerard]

Jay Kauffman <ivanm...@gmail.com> typed:

> You are so fucking easy it's laughable. I thought you were going to
> ignore me but you control yourself the same way you control your
> bladder! If you think you make yourself look like anything but a
> bitter old fool who did rent boys in Holland while you were suing the
> radio station that fired you (oh yes fired by the person you hired)
> then you are more delusionalthan I thought. You just keep living in
> the past because that's all you have (and that past is a combination
> of sticking your nose up Fine,s butt at Mercury and acting like an
> expert while others laughed at you behind your back. And heres a
> little reality check for you. The kindness that Peter Hofmann showed
> me is a human feeling beyond you and the tributes when he died will

> be nothing like the *collective sighs of relief when you have your*
> *well deserved stroke*. Now let's see if you can ignore that you
> ridiculous slob HAHa

Typical wagner rat stuff.

[td]

He can't help himself, I guess.

P-A-T-H-E-T-I-C!

His identity crisis began very early when he was unable to figure out (at birth) whether he should allow that nasty doctor to cut his foreskin.

I guess he went and did it, so he considers himself a Jew. But then he's a Catholic. Egad! Split personality. Unfortunately he got neither brains or salvation in the bargain.

And now he doesn't even know his name.

TD

[arri bachrach]

who the hell is this crazy TD talking about, maybe himself:-)

AB

[wagnerfan]

Of course he is - poor thing it must be the dementia. Bottom line is
he is old, very old and I am patient, very patient - so I'm just
waiting---with a big smile on my face----for the inevitable. Wagner
fan

[td]

You haven't followed the "transformation" of a poster who was once
"Richard Loeb" (remember him, Arri?) and then WagnerFan, and now "Jay
Kaufman".

He once revealed that he was born of mixed parents, thus a religious
mongrel, as it were. Doesn't really know what he is, frankly. When he
looks down between his pants he thinks he's a Jew, but then he
worships Jesus. Go figure.

At least Arri you know what you are and are unafraid to announce it to
the world, although many would be much more reticent, I think, given
your particular limitations.

TD

[arri bachrach]

since I am not aware of any personal 'limitations' would you kindy
spell them out so i can defend myself...

AB

[arri bachrach]

have respect for your elders, I also am no spring chicken and i have
no patience for your 'patience'... ( we both are NOT very old) and
even if we were we do not wish to read that kind of stuff..........

AB

[td]

Deafness would be a real problem, of course. Stubbornness also.

Let's stop there, so we don't make you feel too badly.

TD

[arri bachrach]

did not know that you had it in you to show compassion:-)) I am
much impressed.....
so far as my 'deafness' is concerned I promise myself to do something
about that in the near future!

AB

AB

[td]

But how? You would have to begin by "hearing" how bland and
flavourless and uninteresting Volodos is as a pianist. How is this
possible, as you seem smitten by this overweight dullard?

TD

[arri bachrach]

how ironic..... one of the most common criticisms of Brendel's playing
is that it is colorless and bland and yet you dont
hear that deficiency? His tone never has much beauty whereas
Volodos's tone in recordings is full and round. How can you accuse me
of being 'deaf' when you cannot hear the sonic limitations of Brendel?

AB

[td]

Tonal beauty, as you put it, is a passing fancy. Imagine Beethoven
worrying for a microsecond about tonal beauty.

Your priorities need complete overhaul, right from the very scratch.
That is the task which lies before you. I don't think you have the
ability to do that, you know.

Some people would say you are a lost cause. I wouldn't go that far,
but only you can prove them wrong.

TD

[Norman Schwartz]

td wrote:

> He once revealed that he was born of mixed parents, thus a religious
> mongrel, as it were. Doesn't really know what he is, frankly. When he
> looks down between his pants he thinks he's a Jew, but then he
> worships Jesus. Go figure.
>

What do you think happened when Jesus looked down beteween his pants? Is is
known whether his Jewish parents had him circumcised?

> TD

[John Wiser]

"Lena" <emsw...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:d91fc3af-8f93-447f...@h1g2000vbx.googlegroups.com...

On Apr 8, 9:50 pm, Steve Emerson <eme...@n-n-nospamsonic.net> wrote:
> In article <XnsA19954B019F54amcooperoptonline...@209.197.15.254>,
> Alan Cooper <amcoope...@SPAMoptonline.net> wrote:
>
> > I remember having heard/read that Godowsky tended to stiffen up when
> > recording and even in concert. Supposedly the best time to hear him was
> > in informal settings, where he was astonishing. If he could actually
> > play the stuff he wrote, that's enough evidence for me :-) Too bad no
> > recordings seem to exist of those ad hoc performances.
>
>> The one thing I've heard that is pretty much a knockout is his Beethoven
>> "Les Adieux." Not to be missed.
>>

> Since I was subtly alerted, okay: yes, in my opinion you're right.

> (Sorry, I can't say anything about his Grieg. I think I have more of
> a taste for long-lost lutefisk/lutfisk than I have for Grieg...)>


During the brief period when I was into Grieg (ca. 1947-49),
Godowsky's rec. of the Ballade made a negative impression.
That appears to be permanent. Now the only Grieg-memories
hospitably retained are of the Op. 72 Sl�tter, thanks to Andor
Foldes, and nothing else at all.
And certainly nothing whatever composed or recorded by Godowsky.
(that I've ever heard; I haven't heard his "Les Adieux")

jdw

[Bob Lombard]

Not even some of the Songs Without Words? Is there no poetry in your soul?

[John Wiser]

"Bob Lombard" <monty....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:YHebt.80746$%R.1...@en-nntp-16.dc1.easynews.com...

Soul?
What's this "soul" nonsense?
In my blood, yes.
Watch out
or I'll bleed some for ya.

jdw

[td]

Are you suggesting that Jesus was a Jew, Norman? I wasn't aware that
God was Jewish. Perhaps in your mind this is the case, of course.

TD

[td]

On Apr 16, 12:08 pm, Bob Lombard <monty.pel...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 4/16/2013 11:54 AM, John Wiser wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

> > "Lena" <emswo...@gmail.com> wrote in message

> >news:d91fc3af-8f93-447f...@h1g2000vbx.googlegroups.com...
> > On Apr 8, 9:50 pm, Steve Emerson <eme...@n-n-nospamsonic.net> wrote:
> >> In article <XnsA19954B019F54amcooperoptonline...@209.197.15.254>,
> >> Alan Cooper <amcoope...@SPAMoptonline.net> wrote:
>
> >> > I remember having heard/read that Godowsky tended to stiffen up when
> >> > recording and even in concert. Supposedly the best time to hear him
> >> was
> >> > in informal settings, where he was astonishing. If he could actually
> >> > play the stuff he wrote, that's enough evidence for me :-) Too bad no
> >> > recordings seem to exist of those ad hoc performances.
>
> >>> The one thing I've heard that is pretty much a knockout is his
> >>> Beethoven
> >>> "Les Adieux." Not to be missed.
>
> >> Since I was subtly alerted, okay:  yes, in my opinion you're right.
>
> >> (Sorry, I can't say anything about his Grieg.  I think I have more of
> >> a taste for long-lost lutefisk/lutfisk than I have for Grieg...)>
>
> > During the brief period when I was into Grieg (ca. 1947-49),
> > Godowsky's rec. of the Ballade made a negative impression.
> > That appears to be permanent. Now the only Grieg-memories

> > hospitably retained are of the Op. 72 Slåtter, thanks to Andor

> > Foldes, and nothing else at all.
> > And certainly nothing whatever composed or recorded by Godowsky.
> > (that I've ever heard; I haven't heard his "Les Adieux")
>
> > jdw
>
> Not even some of the Songs Without Words?  Is there no poetry in your soul?

Grieg wrote Songs without Words? Are you thinking of Mendelssohn, Bob?

TD

[arri bachrach]

I may be a lost cause, but you are completely lost........ you keep
listening to Brendel, I will listen to Volodos asnd we both will be
happy.

AB

[arri bachrach]

On Apr 16, 10:35 am, "Norman Schwartz" <n...@optonline.net> wrote:

did they do that back then?

AB

[Bob Lombard]

At least in Mohammed's time, yes.

[td]

What's Mohammed got to do with it, Bob? We're talking about Jesus, aka
God, aka the Holy Ghost.

Nobody snips off God's foreskin.

TD

[Bob Lombard]

We? Are you using the Royal We? Oops, you are talking we-we, right?

[arri bachrach]

On Apr 16, 11:02 am, Lena <emswo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Apr 8, 9:50 pm, Steve Emerson <eme...@n-n-nospamsonic.net> wrote:
>
> > In article <XnsA19954B019F54amcooperoptonline...@209.197.15.254>,
> >  Alan Cooper <amcoope...@SPAMoptonline.net> wrote:
>
> > > I remember having heard/read that Godowsky tended to stiffen up when
> > > recording and even in concert.  Supposedly the best time to hear him was
> > > in informal settings, where he was astonishing.  If he could actually
> > > play the stuff he wrote, that's enough evidence for me :-)  Too bad no
> > > recordings seem to exist of those ad hoc performances.
>
> > The one thing I've heard that is pretty much a knockout is his Beethoven
> > "Les Adieux." Not to be missed.
>
> Since I was subtly alerted, okay:  yes, in my opinion you're right.
>
> (Sorry, I can't say anything about his Grieg.  I think I have more of
> a taste for long-lost lutefisk/lutfisk than I have for Grieg...)
>

> L.
>
>
>
> > The wisdom that his Grieg is immortal, has not been borne out in my
> > listening.
>
> > SE.

just listened to the Grieg Ballade (on yt).. It is a truly wonderful
performance... Beautiful phrasing, perfectly voiced chords, great
sonorities. Perhaps a bit restrained at times, but the coda has
tremendous emotional power. I have all his acoustics and none of this
beauty is evident. One can see, at least in parts of this recording
why Godowsky hasd such a great reputation.

AB

[David Fox]

You mean "Lyric Pieces", which I guess were the Norwegian version of the
same general idea.

I think Grieg gets penalized for being a miniaturist. I tend to
pigeonhole him in my mind a certain way, but whenever I encounter an
unfamiliar chamber work in a recital or on a recording it usually
exceeds my expectations. He composed at a very high level but left
behind few notable (i.e. large) masterworks.

DF

[td]

I don't "keep listening" to anyone.

In fact I mostly only listen to young pianists today.

TD

[djreic...@gmail.com]

I've read quite a few comments of yours. You exhibit all the signs of a castrated, sterile imbecile.

[dk]

Hear, hear....

dk

[tomdeacon]

Unfair to judge a book by its cover. I am far worse in person.

--
TD