So what is the "best" Mahler 9?
Steve Spartan
the Mahler symphonies.
Is there some recording of the Mahler 9 that is considered to be the
benchmark to which all others are compared?
Gerard
As in most cases: there is not "one best recording".
When discovering the Mahler symphonies, there is a good read in the articles by
Tony Duggan:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/Mahler/index.html
Steve Spartan
> Steve Spartan wrote:
>> All this talk about the Mahler 9th is timely as I'm just now
>> discovering the Mahler symphonies.
>> Is there some recording of the Mahler 9 that is considered to be the
>> benchmark to which all others are compared?
>
> As in most cases: there is not "one best recording".
True, it is all highly subjective.
> When discovering the Mahler symphonies, there is a good read in the articles by
> Tony Duggan:
>
> http://www.musicweb-international.com/Mahler/index.html
>
Thanks for this link! Looking forward to reading these.
Gerard
In the case of symphony #9 I think Duggan's survey is quite old.
And he does not mention recordings by e.g. Karajan, Giulini, Abbado, Sinopoli,
Kubelik (the last three are mentioned however in the article about the boxed
sets).
jrsnfld
Nobody's heard all the Mahler 9s out there, so it's a little difficult
to find someone who is reasonable, relatively objective, convincing,
musically knowledgeable, etc. who's also heard all the relevant
recordings. Tony is at least reasonable, even when I disagree with him
or wish he'd mention more of the obvious contenders.
You can pretty much aim randomly at the discography and hit a good
Mahler 9--good enough to make a newcomer love the music.
Otherwise, my assumption is always that a recording I haven't heard
yet is genuinely the best ever. So I'm voting for Gilbert's new disc
until proven otherwise. :-)
--Jeff
jrsnfld
There isn't. However if you tell us more about your preferences (Don't
mind mono, live, historical documents? Want SACD only? Can't stand
trumpets? Don't like the sound of a tam-tam? Play the flute in your
spare time?) then at least we can comment based on those. That's the
difference between consulting a newsgroup and reading a review.
--Jeff
Gregory Arkadin
My favorites include Maderna and Klemperer. There's also a terrific
performance conducted by Sanderling on BBC and a recent recording by
Barenboim that I listen to quite a bit.
notesetter
Very fine, and I think one of the greats.
A download was offered on the Mahler list some time ago - the links
are still active. Good 1954 mono sound:
http://listserv.uh.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0705E&L=MAHLER-LIST&P=R132&D=0&H=0&I=-3&O=T&T=0
Bruce
Steve Spartan
The only preference that I have is that the performance be emotionally
charged and, dare I say, "dark". I tend to prefer my music the same way
I prefer my coffee. :-)
Oh yeah, CD or SACD.
Frank Berger
> In article
> <75715f55-b8a0-4abb...@k26g2000vbp.googlegroups.com>,
> Also Karajan live (but not the studio recording).
> I've yet to hear Sanderling and Barenboim.
If there was a vote, wouldn't Walter's 1938 version rank at or near the top?
A vote here for Ancerl, Horenstein, Bertini, Kondrashin, off the top of my
head. I'm shocked to see I don't have Klemperer. Will have to rectify that.
SG
I hate to play the on-duty D.H. but the Walter 1938 version, while
extremely touching and absolutely worth having by those not put out by
historical recordings, couldn't qualify as first choice.
All qualifications considered (there are many versions I've not heard,
etc.), Bruno Maderna in London (not Italy) is - by far! - my favorite
version. An ideal meeting of structure, spontaneity, clarity,
subtlety, emotion, aesthetic revelation. For the little that's worth.
regards,
SG
jrsnfld
> In article
> <75715f55-b8a0-4abb-9a7e-42700f738...@k26g2000vbp.googlegroups.com>,
Heh, heh. Not in Mahler 9. Klemperer's a very good, interesting
recording to have, but it's true that he goes too slow for most
people, so he doesn't qualify as canonic (or particularly intense or
dark...maybe somewhat dark).
> Also Karajan live (but not the studio recording).
I like the studio recording too.
> I've yet to hear Sanderling and Barenboim.
This is one of Barenboim's best interpretations (equal to his 7th) of
anything.
--Jeff
SG
To my ears (not superior in any way to Jeff's!), Barenboim's is a
good, structurally sound version, extremely well played and recorded,
with little voices you don't hear elsewhere well clarified, but he is
emphatically unsympathetic to the music at its core.
I would be remiss not to be reminded of the very old Guido Agosti in a
masterclass, after some athletic youngster shot off an immaculate
version of LvB's Appassionata:
"Wunderbar, aber wo ist die Musik?"
regards,
SG
jrsnfld
Some good advice already dispensed, particularly Kondrashin, Maderna,
Barenboim, and Sanderling. There are several with Sanderling--the one
on BBC is probably the best, but the one on Berlin Classics may be a
tad darker because it's more ponderous--not necessarily a good
tradeoff. Kletzki I admire, but I think his asset is his energy, not
necessarily "dark" though plenty exciting and committed. Same with
Walter--perhaps the most emotionally charged occasion, and wild and
intense, but this early performance is too quick and poorly recorded
to be a prime recommendation. Actually Walter's later Columbia
recording is quite good but the sonics don't convey the darkness
you're looking for, even if the playing strives for it.
Another very dark BBC recording is with Horenstein/LSO (not his quite
different Vox recording). I used to find it the most disturbingly
depressed version. Both are emotionally charged. Well, the music is
dark and emotionally charged, so it's hard to miss.
Giulini on DG is one you might particularly like, weighty, brooding,
emotional but very well played and the recording is excellent if, and
only if, you get the latest remastering (coupled with an equally dark,
weighty, emotionally charged Schubert 8).
There are many other that would fit your description just fine, like
Bernstein/Concertgebouw, Sinopoli/Philharmonia, Pesek/Liverpool, and
more.
Two of my favorites are Gielen on Intercord (his first recording) and
Szell, but neither is "darker" than average. I still think they are
outstanding. I don't think I've heard Gielen's later recording, but
maybe it's even better.
If you find Tennstedt/Philadelphia in your internet travels,
definitely give it a listen. Come to think of it, Levine/Philadelphia
is weighty, dark, and generally slow and intense. I haven't heard his
Munich recording, but in any case I wouldn't compare him to Tennstedt
for emotional charge.
--Jeff
SG
PS It must be pick-on-Jeff day (an esteemed listener with whom I have
in common a lot of reactions), but I would definitely not recommend
any Karajan version, for reasons partially similar with those I
wouldn't recommend Barenboim for. Added to that, there's some darkness
in Karajan's versions which I find oppressive and depressive rather
than poetic and revealing.
Among other versions mentioned (and which I know), Ancerl is good and
uncontroversial but not awfully special, Kubelik, as much as I like
him in Mahler, isn't as special as in, say, Symphony no. 1 or
(especially) in the supreme Das Lied von der Erde with Dame Janet.
Kondrashin *is* a dark and well-played version, which has moments of
superb drama - the recorded balances aren't that great, without being
awful either, better than Walter 1938, worse than the later Walter,
which I prefer, and I think is a great, wonderfully balanced version,
but perhaps more serene than dark.
Bernstein's versions I can do without. Especially the live one (was it
Amsterdam or Berlin?) has so much self-pity in it, that I found no
compassion left in me ( :.
I would go Maderna all the way.
regards,
SG
jrsnfld
My opinion may be colored by having heard him conduct it live. In any
case, I think this is one of the best things he's done, but that may
be damning with faint praise if you don't like Barenboim's congenital
fussiness and seriousness. I think the music shines through here ever
so darkly, which is what the OP seems to want. DB is a musician who
never makes anything sound "simple", so in that regard he'll never
compete with the Walters and Szells and Gielens and Rosbauds in this
piece.
--Jeff
J.Martin
> Two of my favorites are Gielen on Intercord (his first recording) and
> Szell, but neither is "darker" than average. I still think they are
> outstanding. I don't think I've heard Gielen's later recording, but
> maybe it's even better.
>
I'm not sure the second Gielen is better than his first, but both are
outstanding, and the second is perhaps a bit "darker," if by that we
mean more brooding and meditative. In any case, you really must hear
it, and it might be a great recommendation for the OP as well.
In addition to the Gielens, my short list of great M9s would include
Maderna, Szell, Bernstein/RCO, Klemperer live, Ancerl and Karajan. But
there are so many good ones...
JM
SG
Thanks, Jeff, for your reply on Barenboim. What you say makes perfect
sense, regardless of different bottom lines.
(I'm not trying to be vulgar here(p.)
regards,
SG
deleuzian
That said, I found Chailly surprisingly 'dark' and intense. Rattle
too, but it may be due to the recording level.
mark
Let me offer a few options that you won't hear in this NG:
1. Cleveland Orchestra/Dohnanyi/Decca. Possibly the finest sounding
Mahler 9 you could get, it also has a unique coupling in Hartmann's
Second Symphony. This recording benefits from being played back at a
slightly higher volume level. If you want to experience Mahler as a
romanticist without the pushing and pulling of a Bernstein, then this
is your choice.
2. Berlin PO/Karajan/DG. He did 2 recordings on DG. The digital
version was a best seller early in the CD age, and it is a fine live
performance. I find the earlier analog recording to be slightly
better, and it has a good coupling with Christa Ludwig in the Rückert
Lieder and Kindertotenlieder. The tension in the playing in both
recordings is at a high level.
BTW - I heard both of these respective forces in live concert in this
piece: Karajan/BPO at Carnegie, Dohanyi/Cleveland at NJPAC. Both
concerts were extraordinary. I would rate the performance I heard with
Maazel/Cleveland at Carnegie in the early 80s as the greatest
performance I ever heard of Mahler 9. My first encounter with the
Mahler 9 live was Haitink/Clevelad at Severance Hall back in the 70s.
jrsnfld
> In addition to the Gielens, my short list of great M9s would include
> Maderna, Szell, Bernstein/RCO, Klemperer live, Ancerl and Karajan. But
> there are so many good ones...
Now there's an interesting twist...Klemperer live. If you mean the
Vienna Phil performance, I agree that one is quite dark and moody, and
maintains its emotional intenstity better than the Philharmonia
recording. Good point. I don't have it in the best of sound, though,
so I'd hesitate to send a newbie in that direction.
--Jeff
Dave Cook
My choices right now would be Giulini/Chicago and Ancerl/Czech Phil.
Make sure you get the "Originals" issue of the Giulini that fixes some
balance problems in the previous issues.
Dave Cook
jrsnfld
Perhaps we should be recommending Maazel/NY? I haven't heard it in a
while and am not sure I'd recommend it over his Vienna recording.
Either way, Maazel does do a good job with Mahler generally; I just
don't remember anything about his 9th (or MTT's, which I've heard a
couple of times) that was unusually dark or emotionally charged. Very
well thought out, however.
I did hear Dohnanyi/Cleveland do M9 live and it was (for me) a
complete emotional dud, though almost perfectly played--a far cry from
Szell's searing simplicity. The recording is certainly excellent
(thanks for reminding me of the Hartmann...I just heard a Maazel
performance of that Hartmann symphony this morning!) but it's not what
I would call "emotionally charged". Or, if it is then practically all
recordings of this piece are "emotionally charged" because that's the
kind of music it is. For this OP, however, I'd steer clear of
Dohnanyi.
--Jeff
jrsnfld
> PS It must be pick-on-Jeff day
I'm honored...
> Kondrashin *is* a dark and well-played version, which has moments of
> superb drama - the recorded balances aren't that great, without being
> awful either....
There's Kondrashin live in Tokyo for those who can't abide the old
Melodiya recording.
> Bernstein's versions I can do without. Especially the live one (was it
> Amsterdam or Berlin?) has so much self-pity in it, that I found no
> compassion left in me ( :.
You may be right about the Berlin performance; not so much about the
Amsterdam (also on DG). We'll leave the Boston performance to another
discussion!
--Jeff
jrsnfld
Which Rattle recording?
--Jeff
td
Well, that's nice for Mr. Golescu.
Unfortunately, some of us were lucky enough to have been in CH when
Herbert von Karajan performed Mahler 9 with his Berlin Philharmonic
Orchestra. We would all be mystified by the comments above on Karajan
and Mahler 9. What has Golescu been smoking?
It is also hardly possible NOT to speak of Walter and Klemperer in
connection with Mahler 9. Also the Concertgebouw Orchestra under
Haitink, if only for the "sound" of that orchestra, which has been
described of the "world's greatest orchestra" in recent years. It
outdid the other orchestras on display in Amsterdam ten years ago for
their Mahler marathon ( VPO and BPO and RCOA).
Horenstein is also a name which is commonly mentioned. I cannot speak
to this myself, but perhaps others can.
TD
mark
You're correct about the Dohnanyi not being emotionally charged, but
that's why I like it so much. My feeling is that Mahler wrote the
emotions on the page, and that one need not "help" him in playing
those emotions. Dohnanyi's recording is a tonic for those of us who
can do without the overwrought approach to this piece that has
attached itself to this piece apres Lenny. The carity in the Dohnanyi
version is also welcome, especially in the fugues.
Of course, we're splitting hairs here. There's lots of room for
interpretation in Mahler, and there are few Mahler 9 recordings out
there that are losers. I may have been favorably surprised by the
Dohnanyi because as a rule I find him rather dull as a conductor, and
I find the post-Maazel version of the Cleveland careful to a fault.
mark
I like Maazel's 7th with Vienna very much. He has the guts to take the
opening movement slow enough that it almost makes sense. :)
That said, I still don't get the Finale of the 7th.
mark
Srry ubot awl teh typos in ma recent psts...
Matthew Silverstein
> regards, SG
Nice to hear from you! Where have you been hiding?
Matty
Greg
<snip>
>
> Giulini on DG is one you might particularly like, weighty, brooding,
> emotional but very well played and the recording is excellent if, and
> only if, you get the latest remastering (coupled with an equally dark,
> weighty, emotionally charged Schubert 8).
>
Ok, I'm possibly a little confused, but I thought I read somewhere
(probably here) that there were sound problems of some sort in this
recording that could not be fixed by remastering - a fluttering sound
or something. But there may have been another remastering since then,
or maybe I am mis-remembering. I should note that I haven't actually
heard any mastering of it, partly because there are so many other good
versions, and there was supposed to be some sort of sound problem...
Can you shed any light on the sound issues?
Greg
(who listened to substantial portions of Gilbert's recording today and
was quite impressed)
mark
IIRC, the fluttering of which you speak was NOT fixed on The Originals
issue. I do believe the recording was remixed and that it now sounds
like a real orchestra playing.
Amazing how DG botched this thing.
jrsnfld
It was not fixed in the Galleria CD issue nor the French Double CD
issue. I believe it was corrected on the Originals release.
-Jeff
jrsnfld
Yes I'm partially to slow opening movements for 7, and all of the
Maazel performances I've heard so far (Pittsburgh, Cleveland, NY,
Vienna, SOBR) are weighty and massive in this respect. I didn't "get"
the finale at first, either. I enjoyed it on its own, but not as part
of the symphony until after some trying.
--Jeff
david...@aol.com
> All this talk about the Mahler 9th is timely as I'm just now discovering
> the Mahler symphonies.
> Is there some recording of the Mahler 9 that is considered to be the
> benchmark to which all others are compared?
Bruno Maderna with the BBC SO.
-david gable
jrsnfld
>
> You're correct about the Dohnanyi not being emotionally charged, but
> that's why I like it so much. My feeling is that Mahler wrote the
> emotions on the page, and that one need not "help" him in playing
> those emotions. Dohnanyi's recording is a tonic for those of us who
> can do without the overwrought approach to this piece that has
> attached itself to this piece apres Lenny. The carity in the Dohnanyi
> version is also welcome, especially in the fugues.
>
> Of course, we're splitting hairs here. There's lots of room for
> interpretation in Mahler, and there are few Mahler 9 recordings out
> there that are losers. I may have been favorably surprised by the
> Dohnanyi because as a rule I find him rather dull as a conductor, and
> I find the post-Maazel version of the Cleveland careful to a fault.
I agree on all those points, especially the post Maazel Cleveland
syndrome. I guess I want to hew close to the OP's preferences, because
otherwise every Mahler 9 is going to look attractive and no useful
advice is dispensed. Otherwise I might be pushing Rosbaud, Herbig,
Szell, and others in this vein who are preferable to Dohnanyi, IMHO.
--Jeff
Heck51
> All this talk about the Mahler 9th is timely as I'm just now discovering
> the Mahler symphonies.
> Is there some recording of the Mahler 9 that is considered to be the
> benchmark to which all others are compared?
probably not - but the Giulini/CSO one on DG is really top-notch.
overall, it's my favorite, tho I also greatly enjoy Walter/ColSO, and
the more recent Boulez/CSO versions. Solti does a great finale as
well.
Dave Cook
> Now there's an interesting twist...Klemperer live. If you mean the
> Vienna Phil performance, I agree that one is quite dark and moody, and
> maintains its emotional intenstity better than the Philharmonia
> recording. Good point. I don't have it in the best of sound, though,
> so I'd hesitate to send a newbie in that direction.
I remember finding the Klemperer/Philharmonia too austere and lean.
(But, no, you can't have my copy.) In this way, it's the polar
opposite of Levine on RCA.
Dave Cook
Bob Harper
(snip)
> Two of my favorites are Gielen on Intercord (his first recording) and
> Szell, but neither is "darker" than average. I still think they are
> outstanding. I don't think I've heard Gielen's later recording, but
> maybe it's even better.
To my ears it is, good as the earlier one is. Similar but a little more so.
Bob Harper
(snip)
Bob Harper
(snip)
> I like Maazel's 7th with Vienna very much. He has the guts to take the
> opening movement slow enough that it almost makes sense. :)
>
> That said, I still don't get the Finale of the 7th.
Perhaps you're just trying too hard. It's a comedy.
Bob Harper
Taree Dawg
It is 'blinding sunlight' after a dark and tragic night.
Ray Hall, Taree
M forever
So what it it that you like about Karajan's performances (and
recordings?) that you think Mr Golescu does not get due to whatever he
inhaled?
> It is also hardly possible NOT to speak of Walter and Klemperer in
> connection with Mahler 9. Also the Concertgebouw Orchestra under
> Haitink, if only for the "sound" of that orchestra, which has been
> described of the "world's greatest orchestra" in recent years. It
> outdid the other orchestras on display in Amsterdam ten years ago for
> their Mahler marathon ( VPO and BPO and RCOA).
Interesting view from someone who can't even keep orchestras with as
characteristic sonic profiles like the WP and BP apart. So who did the
KCA "outdo" these other orchestras?
M forever
> On Oct 21, 10:58 am, Steve Spartan <s_spartan...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > jrsnfld wrote:
> > > On Oct 21, 8:57 am, Steve Spartan <s_spartan...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >> All this talk about the Mahler 9th is timely as I'm just now discovering
> > >> the Mahler symphonies.
> > >> Is there some recording of the Mahler 9 that is considered to be the
> > >> benchmark to which all others are compared?
>
> > > mind mono, live, historical documents? Want SACD only? Can't stand
> > > trumpets? Don't like the sound of a tam-tam? Play the flute in your
> > > spare time?) then at least we can comment based on those. That's the
> > > difference between consulting a newsgroup and reading a review.
>
> > > --Jeff
>
> > The only preference that I have is that the performance be emotionally
> > charged and, dare I say, "dark". I tend to prefer my music the same way
> > I prefer my coffee. :-)
> > Oh yeah, CD or SACD.
>
> Some good advice already dispensed, particularly Kondrashin, Maderna,
> Barenboim, and Sanderling. There are several with Sanderling--the one
> on BBC is probably the best, but the one on Berlin Classics may be a
> tad darker because it's more ponderous--not necessarily a good
> tradeoff. Kletzki I admire, but I think his asset is his energy, not
> necessarily "dark" though plenty exciting and committed. Same with
> Walter--perhaps the most emotionally charged occasion, and wild and
> intense, but this early performance is too quick and poorly recorded
> to be a prime recommendation. Actually Walter's later Columbia
> recording is quite good but the sonics don't convey the darkness
> you're looking for, even if the playing strives for it.
>
> Another very dark BBC recording is with Horenstein/LSO (not his quite
> different Vox recording). I used to find it the most disturbingly
> depressed version. Both are emotionally charged. Well, the music is
> dark and emotionally charged, so it's hard to miss.
>
> Giulini on DG is one you might particularly like, weighty, brooding,
> emotional but very well played and the recording is excellent if, and
> only if, you get the latest remastering (coupled with an equally dark,
> weighty, emotionally charged Schubert 8).
The problem with the earlier CD release, BTW, wasn't so much the sound
as such as the flutter in some places which I think was caused by
insufficient contact between the tape and head during the transfer.
Pretty embarrassing really that they didn't notice that.
> There are many other that would fit your description just fine, like
> Bernstein/Concertgebouw, Sinopoli/Philharmonia, Pesek/Liverpool, and
> more.
>
> Two of my favorites are Gielen on Intercord (his first recording) and
> Szell, but neither is "darker" than average. I still think they are
> outstanding. I don't think I've heard Gielen's later recording, but
> maybe it's even better.
>
> If you find Tennstedt/Philadelphia in your internet travels,
> definitely give it a listen. Come to think of it, Levine/Philadelphia
> is weighty, dark, and generally slow and intense. I haven't heard his
> Munich recording, but in any case I wouldn't compare him to Tennstedt
> for emotional charge.
>
> --Jeff
M forever
I agree that Dohnányi's Cleveland recordings are highly interesting
and great alternatives to many more "sobby" Mahler interpretations,
not just because of the almost x-ray like clarity he brings to these
complex scores, but also because of the great care that has obviously
been taken with musical detail, articulation and phrasing. I don't
quite agree on the sound though. I think it is rather good, but also
quite dry and it makes the orchestra sound "smallish" - of course that
helps the transparency so it goes well with that particular approach.
M forever
> On Oct 21, 10:58 am, Steve Spartan <s_spartan...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > jrsnfld wrote:
> > > On Oct 21, 8:57 am, Steve Spartan <s_spartan...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >> All this talk about the Mahler 9th is timely as I'm just now discovering
> > >> the Mahler symphonies.
> > >> Is there some recording of the Mahler 9 that is considered to be the
> > >> benchmark to which all others are compared?
>
> Bernstein/Concertgebouw, Sinopoli/Philharmonia, Pesek/Liverpool, and
> more.
>
> Two of my favorites are Gielen on Intercord (his first recording) and
> Szell, but neither is "darker" than average. I still think they are
> outstanding. I don't think I've heard Gielen's later recording, but
> maybe it's even better.
>
> If you find Tennstedt/Philadelphia in your internet travels,
> definitely give it a listen. Come to think of it, Levine/Philadelphia
> is weighty, dark, and generally slow and intense. I haven't heard his
> Munich recording, but in any case I wouldn't compare him to Tennstedt
> for emotional charge.
>
> --Jeff
My favorites are Giulini/CSO, both Karajan versions, both Sinopoli
versions, Bernstein's live Amsterdam version, Abbado/WP, and also
Ancerl/CP, but of course, there are many more I enjoy for various
reasons and to various degrees. I think Giulini and Karajan are the
ones who get "deepest" into the music though.
What do you think about Boulez/CSO?
mark
I was having the same experience with the sound making the orchestra
sound smallish and dry on the Dohnanyi Mahler 9 as I first auditioned
it, when for some reason I decided to crank the volume a bit above my
normal setting during the first movement. The change in the character
and recorded sound was immediate and impressive, so much so that I
went back and started the recording from the edge. The bass end of the
recording improved tremendously.
I've had this experience with a number of CDs over the years. I have
no explanation for why this seems to be so to me. I do remember that
playback volume in the control room at the Decca recording sessions
for Porgy and Bess that I attended back in the 70s was always at a
high level, so much so that one could pick up a lot of extraneous
noises on the masters (shoes shuffling, bows hitting music stands,
etc). Perhaps Decca has/had a philosophy about playback levels being
elevated. Anyone know?
I'd be interested to hear what you think were you to go back and
listen to this particular Mahler recording with the volume boosted a
bit.
jrsnfld
Yes quite different than Levine. And yet, my copy is not so lean (but
no, we won't trade!).
--Jeff
mark
issue. I remember it being a problem with the master, and that it was
particularly bad in the last movement.
Could somebody check this? My CDs are still in boxes and I have no
room to unpack them in my new digs, so it's difficult for me to get to
anything right now.
jrsnfld
Yes, the fluttery echo noise, like a flock of geese rising up now and
again, usually afflicting passages for violins. (I call that a problem
with the sound, by the way, even though otherwise the sound was very
good.)
--Jeff
Spam Stopper
td
Why does this recommendation not surprise me?
TD
td
I know what you're going through, Mark. Sympathies.
TD
Bastian Kubis
> david...@aol.com wrote:
>>> Is there some recording of the Mahler 9 that is considered to be the
>>> benchmark to which all others are compared?
>>
>> Bruno Maderna with the BBC SO.
>
> Why does this recommendation not surprise me?
Because you've heard it and found the first movement one of the most
intense and dramatic ever recorded? Just guessing...
Bastian
Sol L. Siegel
news:9f6dnZi35ZyT0ELX...@supernews.com:
>> All this talk about the Mahler 9th is timely as I'm just now
>> discovering the Mahler symphonies.
>> Is there some recording of the Mahler 9 that is considered to be
>> the benchmark to which all others are compared?
>>
>
> If there was a vote, wouldn't Walter's 1938 version rank at or near
> the top?
A great historic document - literally the dying gasp of a musical culture -
but not even Walter's finest performance of the work. Sound, needless to
say, is also a factor. I am surprised that there haven't been more votes
for his stereo remake, which is still the version that speaks to me most
urgently, even ahead of Giulini.
> A vote here for Ancerl, Horenstein, Bertini, Kondrashin, off
> the top of my head. I'm shocked to see I don't have Klemperer. Will
> have to rectify that.
I have Ancerl, Horenstein/LSO/BBC amd Klemperer. Ancerl is superb for a
more lyric take, the others for a darker one. Among versions I don't have,
Maderna intrigues me most.
--
- Sol L. Siegel, Philadelphia, PA USA
Gerard
... talking about stalking ...
Bob Harper
Bob Harper
Simon Roberts
> All this talk about the Mahler 9th is timely as I'm just now discovering
> the Mahler symphonies.
> Is there some recording of the Mahler 9 that is considered to be the
> benchmark to which all others are compared?
I'm not going to answer that question, but I would suggest that if nothing
else, you try Maderna (make sure you get the BBC incarnation, which is in
excellent stereo, rather than the older Arkadia release, which is decent
mono), for similar reasons to SG's; Gielen's first recording (if only
because it has the funniest opening to the second movement I've heard);
Karajan/DG/live (even if largely for the remarkably intense string playing
in the finale).
(That said, this symphony strikes me as having been really well-served in
recordings, so much so that it's hard to find one with little to recommend
it; other favorites of mine include Sinopoli/DG, Barenboim/Teldec,
Haitink/Philips, Giulini/DG, Kurt Sanderling/BBC.)
Simon
td
> On Oct 21, 8:57 am, Steve Spartan <s_spartan...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > All this talk about the Mahler 9th is timely as I'm just now discovering
> > the Mahler symphonies.
> > Is there some recording of the Mahler 9 that is considered to be the
> > benchmark to which all others are compared?
>
>
> 1. Cleveland Orchestra/Dohnanyi/Decca. Possibly the finest sounding
> Mahler 9 you could get, it also has a unique coupling in Hartmann's
> Second Symphony. This recording benefits from being played back at a
> slightly higher volume level. If you want to experience Mahler as a
> romanticist without the pushing and pulling of a Bernstein, then this
> is your choice.
Thanks for reminding me about this recording, which has sat in my
library for years now without anything but a single audition.
Reacquaintance has brought back to mind the flawless discipline of the
CO, its lovely sounds, particularly the winds, but also the strings.
The recording is signed Chris Hazell, whom I have never known, and it
is, as you say, very good.
Your caveat is certainly valid. This is a cool, no sweat/no drama
Mahler 9. Not sure, Mark, that this isn't a contradiction in terms,
frankly. You mention Bernstein, and I have not heard him in this music
for a very long while, but I can imagine how would react to these
arching, aching phrases. Dohnanyi doesn't ache at all, in my opinion.
So, for me, this is a miss and very wide of the mark, however
beautifully played and recorded it is.
TD
td
> td wrote:
Guess again.
Perhaps you are unfamiliar with Mr. Gable and his musical "saints"?
TD
td
LOL
td
LOL?
You think so, Bob?
Gee, I thought you actually paid attention here. Seems not.
TD
mark
Thanks for your comments, Tom.
Anonymous
Charlie
jrsnfld
> Steve Spartan <s_spartan...@yahoo.com> wrote innews:hbnb19$tkl$1...@aioe.org:
I assume you are referring to Haitink's first recording, on Philips,
as opposed to the Christmas Matinee concert on Philips. It is probably
not exactly what the original poster was asking for in terms of
"dark"; a little more sanguine as well. But then it never hurts to
mention a recording as good as this, because it has not failed to move
me when I've heard it.
-Jeff
Anonymous
Charlie
Simon Roberts
news:e6a53a95-4d2a-4c53...@s21g2000prm.googlegroups.com:
Yes.
It is probably
> not exactly what the original poster was asking for in terms of
> "dark"; a little more sanguine as well. But then it never hurts to
> mention a recording as good as this, because it has not failed to move
> me when I've heard it.
Besides, one can never be sure what someone else means by "dark" etc....
I'm slightly surprised that no-one's mentioned Barbirolli/BPO/EMI yet;
but also somewhat pleased, as I've never been able to figure out what
its admirers hear in it - as smooth and dull as Karajan is supposed to
be but isn't, and drably recorded.
Simon
Juan Rey
It's interesting that so few people commenting here pick out
individual movements. X's M9 is dark, Y's is this, Z's is that, and
not X's first movement is better but Y's second is the dog's
bollocks... perhaps I'm showing a lack of discernment, but for me the
first movement is the one that sorts the wheat from the chaff, and if
the detail is there then the structure falls into place. The later
movements are the place for darkness.
Oscar Williamson
Barenboim, Ancerl, Karajan live, Bernstein/BPO...and yes, Gilbert
SACD. I enjoyed the archival recordings of Klemperer live and Szell
live, too. My $0.02.
Bob Harper
Yes, I DO think so.
Bob Harper
Bob Harper
(snip)
> I'm slightly surprised that no-one's mentioned Barbirolli/BPO/EMI yet;
> but also somewhat pleased, as I've never been able to figure out what
> its admirers hear in it - as smooth and dull as Karajan is supposed to
> be but isn't, and drably recorded.
>
> Simon
I must-with regret, as I'm normally a Barbirolli fan--agree. theis
recording really is nothing special.
Bob Harper
Steve de Mena
> Unfortunately, some of us were lucky enough to have been in CH when
> Herbert von Karajan performed Mahler 9 with his Berlin Philharmonic
> Orchestra. We would all be mystified by the comments above on Karajan
> and Mahler 9. What has Golescu been smoking?
>
> It is also hardly possible NOT to speak of Walter and Klemperer in
> connection with Mahler 9. Also the Concertgebouw Orchestra under
> Haitink, if only for the "sound" of that orchestra, which has been
> described of the "world's greatest orchestra" in recent years. It
> outdid the other orchestras on display in Amsterdam ten years ago for
> their Mahler marathon ( VPO and BPO and RCOA).
>
> Horenstein is also a name which is commonly mentioned. I cannot speak
> to this myself, but perhaps others can.
>
> TD
Levine & Philadelphia Orchestra on RCA is another one I enjoyed since
its release in the late 70s. Dramatic last movement, around 1/2 hour I
think. Don't think this CD is available now, maybe at ArkivMusic?
Steve
Matthew�B.�Tepper
be typed in news:4ed3a0c9-f3dc-4fc6-95c3-5a1cb20576c8
@s21g2000prm.googlegroups.com:
> I like Maazel's 7th with Vienna very much. He has the guts to take the
> opening movement slow enough that it almost makes sense. :)
>
> That said, I still don't get the Finale of the 7th.
I don't get *any* of the 7th. Well, maybe the first Nachtmusik.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
Read about "Proty" here: http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers
jrsnfld
Not even in Japan? They had rereleased his RCA Mahler, but I guess
that was about a decade ago by now.
-Jeff
td
You do think it sucks? (Careful about what precedes such comments,
Bob. One assumes the most recent statement. I, of course, assume only
the obvious)
TD
td
Agreed. And an orchestra Mahler could only have dreamed of conducting
himself.
TD
Bob Harper
to any reader that I believe the Maderna to be a great performance.
You apparently don't.
We disagree.
That's life.
Bob Harper
Susanna Spiro
It was special when it was released--wasn't it the Berlin Phil's first
Mahler release?--and some people never got over it.
--Jeff
M forever
It certainly is a very interesting performance. One of the
performances with the widest expressive arches I have heard, like the
first movement which Maderna begins very slowly and dreamily and which
he then builds up to enormous, heated climaxes. I haven't heard it in
a long time though and wonder how I would react to it now, so this may
be a good opportunity to revisit it.
Bob Harper
neither understand, nor agree with, the hype.
Bob Harper
3Bs
> My favorites include Maderna and Klemperer. There's also a terrific
> performance conducted by Sanderling on BBC and a recent recording by
> Barenboim that I listen to quite a bit.
Start with Maderna. Or end there. Might be better to get to know the
piece well, then hear it. I know that sounds silly, but the reward of
a great performance can never be completely clear to someone who is
just getting to know the piece.
M forever
Yes, but it may greatly help to get to know a piece through a really
good performance which "makes sense". But then, no matter how many
recordings of this piece one may find really good or even outstanding,
there are plenty that are at least competently done and there are many
of those which sound much better than this Maderna live performance,
so I wouldn't recommend to start with it.
Nor end with it. This thread made me revisit this performance, and
while it is indeed a highly interesting and very expressive reading
(not least because it is conducted by a man who was a very interesting
composer himself), I also think it has some severe shortcomings. I
don't think Maderna can always keep the extreme tempi he chooses
together. There are many transitions and tempo shifts which don't
quite work and which are really awkward, with some real lapses in
ensemble and moments in which it is not really clear where he (and/or
the orchestra) are heading. For me, the main interest in this
recording is actually that it helps to understand Maderna's musical
thinking better, not necessarily Mahler's.
Mr. Mike
wrote:
>> Levine & Philadelphia Orchestra on RCA is another one I enjoyed since
>> its release in the late 70s. Dramatic last movement, around 1/2 hour I
>> think.
>
>Agreed. And an orchestra Mahler could only have dreamed of conducting
>himself.
Ditto (13 years ago!)
This thread had originally nothing to do with Mahler at all...
This link includes an anal-ysis I made of timings for various
performances. I'm sure it would be a lot longer now. ":-/
Steve Spartan
> On Oct 21, 10:58 am, Steve Spartan <s_spartan...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> jrsnfld wrote:
>>> On Oct 21, 8:57 am, Steve Spartan <s_spartan...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> All this talk about the Mahler 9th is timely as I'm just now discovering
>>>> the Mahler symphonies.
>>>> Is there some recording of the Mahler 9 that is considered to be the
>>>> benchmark to which all others are compared?
>>> mind mono, live, historical documents? Want SACD only? Can't stand
>>> trumpets? Don't like the sound of a tam-tam? Play the flute in your
>>> spare time?) then at least we can comment based on those. That's the
>>> difference between consulting a newsgroup and reading a review.
>>> --Jeff
>> The only preference that I have is that the performance be emotionally
>> charged and, dare I say, "dark". I tend to prefer my music the same way
>> I prefer my coffee. :-)
>> Oh yeah, CD or SACD.
>
> Some good advice already dispensed, particularly Kondrashin, Maderna,
> Barenboim, and Sanderling. There are several with Sanderling--the one
> on BBC is probably the best, but the one on Berlin Classics may be a
> tad darker because it's more ponderous--not necessarily a good
> tradeoff. Kletzki I admire, but I think his asset is his energy, not
> necessarily "dark" though plenty exciting and committed. Same with
> Walter--perhaps the most emotionally charged occasion, and wild and
> intense, but this early performance is too quick and poorly recorded
> to be a prime recommendation. Actually Walter's later Columbia
> recording is quite good but the sonics don't convey the darkness
> you're looking for, even if the playing strives for it.
>
> Another very dark BBC recording is with Horenstein/LSO (not his quite
> different Vox recording). I used to find it the most disturbingly
> depressed version. Both are emotionally charged. Well, the music is
> dark and emotionally charged, so it's hard to miss.
>
> Giulini on DG is one you might particularly like, weighty, brooding,
> emotional but very well played and the recording is excellent if, and
> only if, you get the latest remastering (coupled with an equally dark,
> weighty, emotionally charged Schubert 8).
>
> There are many other that would fit your description just fine, like
> Bernstein/Concertgebouw, Sinopoli/Philharmonia, Pesek/Liverpool, and
> more.
>
> Two of my favorites are Gielen on Intercord (his first recording) and
> Szell, but neither is "darker" than average. I still think they are
> outstanding. I don't think I've heard Gielen's later recording, but
> maybe it's even better.
>
> If you find Tennstedt/Philadelphia in your internet travels,
> definitely give it a listen. Come to think of it, Levine/Philadelphia
> is weighty, dark, and generally slow and intense. I haven't heard his
> Munich recording, but in any case I wouldn't compare him to Tennstedt
> for emotional charge.
>
> --Jeff
Thanks Jeff for this excellent summary!
AN
>
> > Bob Harper
>
> It [Mahler 9] was special when it was released--wasn't it the Berlin Phil's first
> Mahler release?--and some people never got over it.
>
> --Jeff
Not quite - Mahler Kindertotenlieder F-D BPO Kempe r.1955.
(Unless someone else has mentioned this elsewhere, in which case 1000
apologies)
jrsnfld
Good memory...also DFD/BP/Boehm in Kindertotenlieder from 1963
preceded the Barbirolli 9th. And of course by now, retroactively, we
can find earlier Berlin Phil Mahler, such as Rosbaud's Mahler 1 of
1954 or 1955.
The Pale One
I haven't heard the Maderna recording, so I thank you for your review,
which with a few well-chosen and descriptive phrases that any music
lover would understand gives a good sense of what you consider the
major drawbacks of the performance.
We should all hope to be as succinct in our writing.
mark
>
> I haven't heard the Maderna recording, so I thank you for your review,
> which with a few well-chosen and descriptive phrases that any music
> lover would understand gives a good sense of what you consider the
> major drawbacks of the performance.
>
> We should all hope to be as succinct in our writing.
Oops. That was me. I failed to notice that my son was signed in on our
Google account.
mark
>
> Good memory...also DFD/BP/Boehm in Kindertotenlieder from 1963
> preceded the Barbirolli 9th. And of course by now, retroactively, we
> can find earlier Berlin Phil Mahler, such as Rosbaud's Mahler 1 of
> 1954 or 1955.
Were Karajan's 1960 performances of DLVDE recorded? I believe Fritz
Wunderlich and Sandor Konya were the tenor soloists, with Rossl-Majdan
as the mezzo. I think both the BPO and VPO were the orchestras.
Anyone know?
jrsnfld
I don't think I've seen those. I suspect they were recorded (and I've
seen other requests for them), but so far I don't remember if they've
been posted.
--Jeff
M forever
M forever
That's OK, Pale One! I wanted to make it clear though that even though
I said "severe shortcomings", I still think it is a highly interesting
recording, and one that is definitely worth hearing. Definitely much
more than so many which are just streamlined, with no personal "touch"
or anything to "say" about the music, or just superficially
exaggerated. Maybe "severe shortcomings" was not such a well chosen
wording. But I think you know what I mean.
jrsnfld
But they don't seem to know about the Hunt disc of DLvDE from Sept 14,
1970 with Ludwig, Speiss, and Laubental. And the listings of
performances don't indicate if microphones were running or if any
archives have tapes.
-Jeff
M forever
The discography on that site is useless. Compiling and maintaining a
complete Karajan discography would be a monumental task, including all
live recordings which may be archived somewhere probably impossible.
The concert database is pretty useful though, even though the search
engine used to be much better in the old incarnation of the site.
Steve de Mena
> mark <markst...@yahoo.com> appears to have caused the following letters to
> be typed in news:4ed3a0c9-f3dc-4fc6-95c3-5a1cb20576c8
> @s21g2000prm.googlegroups.com:
>
>> I like Maazel's 7th with Vienna very much. He has the guts to take the
>> opening movement slow enough that it almost makes sense. :)
>>
>> That said, I still don't get the Finale of the 7th.
>
> I don't get *any* of the 7th. Well, maybe the first Nachtmusik.
I'm glad to hear that. I feel the same way. Maybe some day...
Steve
jrsnfld
I agree...the concert listing was helpful. The search mechanism seemed
fine for my purposes, once you jump to the more advanced option.
-Jeff
M forever
It used to be better though, especially when you want to search in
specific date ranges.
Gerard
>
> I'm slightly surprised that no-one's mentioned Barbirolli/BPO/EMI yet;
> but also somewhat pleased, as I've never been able to figure out what
> its admirers hear in it - as smooth and dull as Karajan is supposed to
> be but isn't, and drably recorded.
>
> Simon
Here's one:
"Inner string parts, for example, especially middle range, do not tell as much
as they do on what has been my two reference recordings for this review, the
Berlin Philharmonic recordings by Barbirolli and Rattle on EMI."
"However, in terms of interpretation, playing and recorded sound altogether, the
Barbirolli and Rattle Berlin recordings remain for me benchmarks towards which
everyone else must aspire and it is clear from the first few bars of this new
recording that Alan Gilbert is not in the same league as either of them and
short of them by some way."
"Listen to Barbirolli or Rattle or Klemperer, also on EMI, to hear how it ought
to sound."
"A disappointment, then. For a Mahler Ninth that goes to the core of the work by
paying attention to every aspect of it and delivering it in a sound balance that
lets you hear everything in equal measure, it is still necessary to look mostly
to the past. Barbirolli (EMI Classics 5679252) remains my first choice ... "
Tony Duggan using 10,000 words to express his disappointment on Gilbert's
recording at:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2009/Nov09/Mahler9_BISSACD1710.htm
jrsnfld
> "However, in terms of interpretation, playing and recorded sound altogether, the
> Barbirolli and Rattle Berlin recordings remain for me benchmarks towards which
> everyone else must aspire and it is clear from the first few bars of this new
> recording that Alan Gilbert is not in the same league as either of them and
> short of them by some way."
I know that we often use the conductor's name as a shorthand to refer
to a recording, but out of context doesn't this sound like a really
brutal, personal evaluation of Gilbert himself, and far beyond the
competence of any reviewer?
--Jeff