Favorite recording of Schubert's string quintet D956?
Paul R.
why? Just being curious.
Paul R.
Terry
The Melos, with Rostropovich. They get the scale right, and it's really
fiery when it has to be. The most melting trio in the Scherzo.
--
Cheers, Terry
Andrej Kluge
Paul R. wrote:
> What is your favorite recording of Schubert's string quintet D956 and
> why? Just being curious.
1. Vellinger Quartet / Greenhouse
2. Orpheus Quartet / Wispelwey
Both are nearly perfect to my ears in respect to tempo, phrasing,
preciseness, dramatic effect.
Ciao
AK
Matthew B. Tepper
following letters to be typed in
news:7blq27dood012m639...@net.com:
> What is your favorite recording of Schubert's string quintet D956 and why?
> Just being curious.
>
> Paul R.
Alberni Quartet with Thomas Igloi, originally on an LP on the CRD label; my
CD is on Impressions 95003, and I believe I got it from Berkshire Record
Outlet. I wish I could find a recording date, but I believe early '70s.
Also recommended: Hollywood String Quartet with Kurt Reher, on Testament,
and Hungarian Quartet with Laszlo Varga on EMI.
Don't know why. I just love these recordings.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
Read about "Proty" here: http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers
herman
wrote:
> What is your favorite recording of Schubert's string quintet D956 and
> why? Just being curious.
>
> Paul R.
Of the more recent ones I'm rather impressed by the 2009 recording by
the Belcea Quartet, with Valentin Erben on the 2d cello. EMI is
virtually giving the 2cd with the G major and D minor quartets and the
Quintet away. It's a volatile performance, one of those that seems
extremily well-thought out in its effects and yet doesn't feel studio-
dead.
The old one I like is the 1941 Budapest Qt recording with Benar
Heifetz on 2nd cello.
Formerly I imprinted on the Amadeus recording. The first time I heard
this piece live was in 1979 when Viktor Lieberman had fled the USSR
and became concertmaster in the Rotterdam Philharmonic at the
recommendation of Kondrashin (he moved on to the Concertgebouw later,
I seem to recall). Shortly after his appointment in Rotterdam he and
some friends played the 956 as a free lunchtime recital in the foyer
of the Doelen concert hall.
herman
>
> Formerly I imprinted on the Amadeus recording. The first time I heard
> this piece live was in 1979 when Viktor Lieberman had fled the USSR
> and became concertmaster in the Rotterdam Philharmonic
That should be Liberman
AcousticLevitation.org
wrote:
> What is your favorite recording of Schubert's string quintet D956 and
> why? Just being curious.
>
> Paul R.
Brief List, with the whys to follow soon:
Archibudelli, Sony
Ens Villa Nova
The first d956 I heard and time stood still and I'll forever be
grateful, on an ECM double Lp: Lockenhaus Festival. I have to check
the performers and will get back to you. The Hagen + Kremer perhaps?
More anon.
Steve
wkasimer
wrote:
> The Hagen + Kremer perhaps?
The Hagen recording is with Heinrich Schiff, isn't it?
It's been a while since I've listened extensively to this piece, but
as I recall, the ones I've liked best are Rostropovich/Melos,
Sanderling/Petersen, Wispelwey/Orpheus, Casals et al., and Reher/
Hollywood.
BTW, whatever happened to Rostropovich's version with the Taneyev
Quartet? It was announced by DG a couple of years ago, but has never
appeared.
Bill
Alan Cooper
news:8e98e409-417a-4a6c...@h14g2000yqd.googlegroups.
com:
> BTW, whatever happened to Rostropovich's version with the
> Taneyev Quartet? It was announced by DG a couple of years ago,
> but has never appeared.
Good question, especially since it's miles ahead of the turgid Melos/Rostropovich
performance. (*Any* Schubert recording by the Taneyev SQ is worth hearing, btw.)
There are so many good recordings of D. 956! Some of my favorites have been
mentioned already, including Budapest/B. Heifetz, Hollywood/Reher, and
L'Archibudelli. Another worthwhile historical is Pro Arte/Pini (Biddulph, but be
warned that the Brahms coupling is dreadful). Other fine renditions ottomh include
Smetana/Sadlo and Weller/Guertler, but the two to which I return most often are the
uncanny Tatrai/Szilvasy (happily reissued on Capriccio) and a stupendous live
performance by the Arcanto Quartet with Olivier Marron recorded by a friend from a
broadcast (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00ldtgd , unfortunately nla). Among
recent recordings that I have not yet heard, two that pique my curiosity are
Prazak/Coppey and Vogler/Mueller-Schott; I'd appreciate hearing the impressions of
those who have heard them.
AC
Alan Cooper
> BTW, whatever happened to Rostropovich's version with the
> Taneyev Quartet? It was announced by DG a couple of years ago,
> but has never appeared.
P.S. to my previous post: the Arcanto/Marron D.956 broadcast from the 2009 Aldeburgh
Festival is downloadable here: http://www.mediafire.com/?fnnmg1om2g4 .
AC
Bob Harper
> On 25 juil, 13:41, Paul R.<Paul-R3434ffg...@mailserver.invalid>
> wrote:
>> What is your favorite recording of Schubert's string quintet D956 and
>> why? Just being curious.
>>
>> Paul R.
>
> Of the more recent ones I'm rather impressed by the 2009 recording by
> the Belcea Quartet, with Valentin Erben on the 2d cello. EMI is
> virtually giving the 2cd with the G major and D minor quartets and the
> Quintet away. It's a volatile performance, one of those that seems
> extremily well-thought out in its effects and yet doesn't feel studio-
> dead.
>
> The old one I like is the 1941 Budapest Qt recording with Benar
> Heifetz on 2nd cello.
>
record collection, and was thus the first I ever heard. I have it now on
a United Archives CD and like it very much. Someone mentioned the
Petersen/Sanderling recording, which is another favorite. Ditto the
Belcea, the Aeolian/Schrecker, Lindsay/Cummings, and the Hollywood Reher.
In fact, it strikes me that this has been a pretty lucky work on record.
Of those I've heard, there are only two that I really didn't care for:
Rostropovich/Emerson (for the usual reasons I don't much care for the
Emersons), and--most disappointing of all--the Smetana/Sadlo with its
absurdly fast slow movement. I remember reading somewhere that the
recording producer insisted on the tempo, but don't know whether that
had anything to do with it or not. In any case, it doesn't work, and
ruins the performance for me.
Bob Harper
Oscar
>
> Among
> recent recordings that I have not yet heard, two that pique my curiosity are
> Prazak/Coppey and Vogler/Mueller-Schott; I'd appreciate hearing the impressions of
> those who have heard them.
Alan, a few months ago I tracked down a reasonably-priced copy of the
hard-to-find, out-of-print SACD of Prazak/Coppey and was not swayed on
first listen. I should re-visit it.
Oscar
issued last year.
David Fox
wrote:
> What is your favorite recording of Schubert's string quintet D956 and
> why? Just being curious.
>
> Paul R.
My pick is the "sacred cow" - Casals, Stern, Tortelier, et al at
Prades on Sony. It's one of the few sacred cows that deserve its
status.
DF
Alan Cooper
news:b451c3fe-3871-49bb...@g3g2000prf.googlegroups.c
om:
> P.S. I am yet another admirer of the Belcea SQ + Erbern EMI
> recording, issued last year.
I'm up and down about the Belcea. "When they are good, they are very very good...."
(Have you heard their Szymanowski?) My knowledge of the Belcea/Erben Schubert comes
from a couple of live performances, not the commercial recording. There were many
beautiful moments, especially in the second movement, but the first movement sounded
perfunctory to me and the Trio of the third movement was downright eccentric, almost
grinding to a halt. Maybe on EMI they rectify those shortcomings (or perhaps others
don't consider them to be shortcomings); I'll have to give it a listen.
AC
Dontait...@aol.com
It certainly does. There have others that are superb. But that is
extraordinary, and remains so for me. Hats off to you.
Don Tait
Dave Cook
> Alberni Quartet with Thomas Igloi, originally on an LP on the CRD label; my
> CD is on Impressions 95003, and I believe I got it from Berkshire Record
> Outlet. I wish I could find a recording date, but I believe early '70s.
Seconded. It's still available on CRD.
http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/product//CRD3318.htm
Dave Cook
Sol L. Siegel
news:7blq27dood012m639...@net.com:
> What is your favorite recording of Schubert's string quintet D956 and
> why? Just being curious.
Rose/Guarneri for me. At first, it sounds as if it's going to be
too edgy (close miking), but in the end it always carries me away.
I don't think I've noticed a mention for Schiff/Berg. How sweet
the sounds.
And another vote for Reher/Hollywood. The coupling - a rendering of
the original sextet version of Verklärte Nacht good enough to earn
the composer's approval (they played it for him in his house first!) -
doesn't hurt.
- Sol L. Siegel, Philadelphia, PA USA
jrsnfld
>
> I don't think I've noticed a mention for Schiff/Berg. How sweet
> the sounds.
>
I agree--but too sweet for me. I find the recording "overblown" in the
sense that the engineers seem to be making an acoustic of a large
orchestra instead of five players. And the lack of focus ultimately
teams up with the throbbing richness of the ABQ to kill the line and
elegance of the music. So for me the Reher/Hollywood is vastly
superior, if such a difference can be claimed between two otherwise
effective recordings. Compare them side by side sometime and I think
you'll agree that the Hollywood team manages to create intimacy yet
produce plenty of richness, and at nearly every point they make
sustained phrases that move the music forward where the ABQ get mired
in their own schlag.
--Jeff
AcousticLevitation.org
> wrote:
>
> > What is your favorite recording of Schubert's string quintet D956 and
>
> > Paul R.
>
> Brief List, with the whys to follow soon:
> Archibudelli, Sony
> Ens Villa Nova
> The first d956 I heard and time stood still and I'll forever be
> grateful, on an ECM double Lp: Lockenhaus Festival. I have to check
> the performers and will get back to you. The Hagen + Kremer perhaps?
> More anon.
> Steve
Only had time to listen to the one I tagged the "Ensemble Villa Nova,"
but actually it was the Quatuor Sine Nomine I meant, on Claves. It
struck me now as plainjane, with a few moments of beauty, but little
allure or passion. I'll get through a bunch of others during the
week. Maybe I'll make some more shelf space via this endeavor?
Steve
AcousticLevitation.org
> Oscar <oscaredwardwilliam...@gmail.com> wrote innews:b451c3fe-3871-49bb...@g3g2000prf.googlegroups.c
> om:
>
> > P.S. I am yet another admirer of the Belcea SQ + Erbern EMI
> > recording, issued last year.
>
{sorry if some blank messages came through- had problems with this
window)
So many of you have mentioned liking the Belcea. I like their Bartok
and Britten, but have only been able to hear the D.956 via short sound
samples on Amazon which left me cold, although the couplings of
Schubert SQ 14 & 15 semed to have flair. Should I just be grateful?
Steve
jrsnfld
> Oscar <oscaredwardwilliam...@gmail.com> wrote innews:b451c3fe-3871-49bb...@g3g2000prf.googlegroups.c
Alan, if you get a chance, try the Proms performance by the Belcea/
Erben from last week. It wasn't at all perfunctory--quite original,
and if there were a couple eccentric moments where the drama was
intensified by interesting details or significant tempo change, the
effect was electric and never outsized or bizarre, IMHO. I haven't
heard the EMI disc, but this seems quite a bit better thought-out and
more refined than an earlier performance I heard of theirs, which
seemed overwrought and fussy, if I recall correctly. The conception
really comes together well in this latest concert.
--Jeff
Gerard
I don't have a real favorite. And I have don't have a couple of dozens
recordings. But there are a few - not yet mentioned - recordings I return to
sometimes.
One is the Kocian Quartet, with Daniel Veis, on Supraphon.
(available I suppose, see:
http://www.amazon.com/Schubert-String-Quintet/dp/B002RX5WEM/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1311670351&sr=8-2
(the reviews there however are about the Emersons)
Another one is the Leipziger Streichquartett, with Michael Sanderling, on MDG,
in a 9 CD box (but available separately).
Alan Cooper
news:763ff177-2378-4647...@e20g2000prf.googlegroups.
com:
> On Jul 25, 2:42 pm, Alan Cooper <amcoo...@NOSPAMoptonline.net>
> wrote:
>> Oscar <oscaredwardwilliam...@gmail.com> wrote
>> innews:b451c3fe-3871-49bb-b
> 5f9-043c...@g3g2000prf.googlegroups.c
Good advice, as I realize that the performances that I heard must be several years
old by now. The July 19 Prom performance is still available for streaming at
http://tunein.com/radio/BBC-Proms-p180486/ . Listening right now. OK so far,
although I'm not ready to drop the "perfunctory" label that I attached to their
opening movement. I think the problem begins with Belcea-Fisher herself, who
strikes me as a decent leader but not a stellar one: she exhibits signs of stress
in exposed passages and relies on expressive devices that amount to interpretive
cliches. I'm guessing that you know the 2009 Arcanto/Marron performance from
Aldeburgh that I mentioned previously. Do you really think Belcea/Erben measure
up to them, or that Belcea-Fisher is in the same class as Weithaas? Perhaps I'm
being over-critical (and this is only an interim judgement as I'm still in mid-
listen), but for the moment I'm sticking with "good but not great" here.
AC
Andrej Kluge
Andrej Kluge wrote:
> 1. Vellinger Quartet / Greenhouse
Btw, these seem to be downloadable on rapidshare (not my upload/source):
http://avaxhome.ws/music/classical/romantic/Schubert_String_Quintet.html
Ciao
AK
jrsnfld
> jrsnfld <jrsn...@aol.com> wrote innews:763ff177-2378-4647...@e20g2000prf.googlegroups.
> com:
>
>
>
> > On Jul 25, 2:42 pm, Alan Cooper <amcoo...@NOSPAMoptonline.net>
> > wrote:
> >> Oscar <oscaredwardwilliam...@gmail.com> wrote
> >> innews:b451c3fe-3871-49bb-b
> although I'm not ready to drop the "perfunctory" label that I attached to their
> opening movement. I think the problem begins with Belcea-Fisher herself, who
> strikes me as a decent leader but not a stellar one: she exhibits signs of stress
> in exposed passages and relies on expressive devices that amount to interpretive
> cliches. I'm guessing that you know the 2009 Arcanto/Marron performance from
> Aldeburgh that I mentioned previously. Do you really think Belcea/Erben measure
> up to them, or that Belcea-Fisher is in the same class as Weithaas? Perhaps I'm
> being over-critical (and this is only an interim judgement as I'm still in mid-
> listen), but for the moment I'm sticking with "good but not great" here.
>
> AC
I agree that Belcea-Fisher tends to show stress, and yes, Weithaas is
at a higher level. The Arcanto group is miraculous at times. But I
tend to like the Belcea Q anyway. Perhaps they are routine at times,
but I haven't noticed this nearly as much as an over-earnest striving
that you might call cliche but I somehow am enjoying. I did not feel
this was a cliched performance, however--there were plenty of
interesting touches and fine playing. And yes I kind of rejected their
Schubert in the past.
Over critical? Almost certainly, but then...what is this group for but
to be over critical? :-)
I haven't heard the Arcanto/Marron performance in a long time...I'll
try to listen again soon. This is a piece that I put on the back
burner for a while, due to overexposure,and yet I see I've picked up
three in the last month! :-0.
Last time we were discussing it, a few years back, some people were
raving over a performance that had Noras and Imai in it. Do you
remember that one? I'm trying to recall the rest of the ensemble....
--Jeff
David Fox
wrote:
> Paul R. wrote:
> > What is your favorite recording of Schubert's string quintet D956 and
> > why? Just being curious.
>
> > Paul R.
>
> I don't have a real favorite. And I have don't have a couple of dozens
> recordings. But there are a few - not yet mentioned - recordings I return to
> sometimes.
> One is the Kocian Quartet, with Daniel Veis, on Supraphon.
>
> (the reviews there however are about the Emersons)
>
> Another one is the Leipziger Streichquartett, with Michael Sanderling, on MDG,
> in a 9 CD box (but available separately).
I agree on the Leipziger's. An excellent recording.
DF
Matthew B. Tepper
typed in news:0001HW.CA551853...@news.tpg.com.au:
> On Tue, 26 Jul 2011 07:26:03 +1000, Oscar wrote
> (in article
><b451c3fe-3871-49bb...@g3g2000prf.googlegroups.com>):
>
>> P.S. I am yet another admirer of the Belcea SQ + Erbern EMI recording,
>> issued last year.
>
> Yes, me too. I forgot to mention it.
Wasn't it some members of the Belcea SQ who recorded Schubert's "Trout" with
Thomas Adès?
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!!
"I don’t think right-wing social engineering is any more desirable
than left-wing social engineering. I don’t think imposing radical
change from the right or the left is a very good way for a free
society to operate. I think we need a national conversation to get
to a better Medicare system with more choices for seniors." Former
Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich on "Meet the Press" 15 May 2011
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers.
Kip Williams
> Whilst I have the Schiff/Berg, the fact that they don't do the first movement
> repeat is a real bummer, in my opinion.
Time to get busy with an editing program! These are the golden days of
"have it your own way"!
Kip W
mandryka
> Paul R. <Paul-R3434ffg...@mailserver.invalid> wrote:
> > What is your favorite recording of Schubert's string quintet D956 and
> > why? Just being curious.
>
>
> The Melos, with Rostropovich. They get the scale right, and it's really
> fiery when it has to be. The most melting trio in the Scherzo.
> --
> Cheers, Terry
A very helpful comment Terry -- thanks for posting. You see I have
always had a problem with the repeat in the first movement and so I've
gone for recordings which cut it -- especially older ones.
But the Melos does sound good -- certainly the only version I have
heard with the repeat which felt interesting all the way through the
first movement. I need to get to know it better of course, but thanks
again for pointing it out.
BTW I have a similar problem with the G major quartet D887 -- any
suugestions for a good recording there would be appreciated!
mandryka
> wkasimer <wkasi...@comcast.net> wrote innews:8e98e409-417a-4a6c...@h14g2000yqd.googlegroups.
> com:
>
> > BTW, whatever happened to Rostropovich's version with the
> > Taneyev Quartet? It was announced by DG a couple of years ago,
> > but has never appeared.
>
> Good question, especially since it's miles ahead of the turgid Melos/Rostropovich
> performance. (*Any* Schubert recording by the Taneyev SQ is worth hearing, btw.)
> There are so many good recordings of D. 956! Some of my favorites have been
> mentioned already, including Budapest/B. Heifetz, Hollywood/Reher, and
> L'Archibudelli. Another worthwhile historical is Pro Arte/Pini (Biddulph, but be
> warned that the Brahms coupling is dreadful). Other fine renditions ottomh include
> Smetana/Sadlo and Weller/Guertler, but the two to which I return most often are the
> uncanny Tatrai/Szilvasy (happily reissued on Capriccio) and a stupendous live
> performance by the Arcanto Quartet with Olivier Marron recorded by a friend from a
> recent recordings that I have not yet heard, two that pique my curiosity are
> Prazak/Coppey and Vogler/Mueller-Schott; I'd appreciate hearing the impressions of
> those who have heard them.
>
> AC
Tatrai . . .uncanny . . . mmmm . . . intriguing . . . I've just placed
the order.
wkasimer
> BTW I have a similar problem with the G major quartet D887 -- any
> suugestions for a good recording there would be appreciated!
Well, the Hagen quartet takes the repeat, but their recording is
absolutely hair-raising.
Bill
Bob Harper
Panocha (with 12-14) on Supraphon.
Bob Harper
Alan Cooper
news:19832bdc-5722-4074...@h7g2000prf.googlegroups.c
om:
> Last time we were discussing it, a few years back, some people
> were raving over a performance that had Noras and Imai in it. Do
> you remember that one? I'm trying to recall the rest of the
> ensemble....
I vaguely recalled it, and checked the archive to refresh my memory: it was a
discussion between you and Mario ("MrT") about a concert from Warsaw that one of you
might or might not have recorded. I didn't have anything to contribute at the time,
but it would make sense if it were actually the Michelangelo Quartet (in which Imai
is the violist) + Noras. Poking around the web, I noted that last month the
Michelangelo + Noras & Bruno Pasquier gave a live performance of Verlaerte Nacht.
Does that help?
AC
Alan Cooper
news:07cdc7e5-7c71-4236...@m8g2000yqo.googlegroups.c
om:
> Tatrai . . .uncanny . . . mmmm . . . intriguing . . . I've just
> placed the order.
I'll await your report. No one comes away from this performance unaffected one way
or another.
AC
Andrej Kluge
Alan Cooper wrote:
> Among recent recordings that I have not yet heard, two that pique
> my curiosity are Prazak/Coppey and Vogler/Mueller-Schott;
The Prazak is not bad at all. It's probably no. 3 on my list of favorites.
Ciao
AK
Andrej Kluge
Bob Harper wrote:
>>> BTW I have a similar problem with the G major quartet D887 -- any
>>> suugestions for a good recording there would be appreciated!
>>
>> Well, the Hagen quartet takes the repeat, but their recording is
>> absolutely hair-raising.
>>
> The Prazak on Praga is outstanding, IMO. Also the Vegh on Orfeo and
> the Panocha (with 12-14) on Supraphon.
My vote also for the Panocha. I don't like their other 2 quartets on this
CD, but their 887 is outstanding. Desert island.
Ciao
AK
Alan Cooper
news:4e2f2d6c$0$30707$5fc...@news.tiscali.nl:
> mandryka <howie...@googlemail.com> - Tue, 26 Jul 2011
> 10:07:05 -0700 (PDT):
>
>> BTW I have a similar problem with the G major quartet D887 --
>> any suggestions for a good recording there would be
>> appreciated!
>
> I always liked the Melos Quartett (Harmonia Mundi, not DG).
> I have D887 on a twofer with D703, D804 and D810. It was
> reissued on a budget-priced CD with D703 ('Quartettsatz') in
> 2002.
I don't remember about all the repeats in D887 recordings (I know the Budapest skip a
few), but my favorite recordings in order are: Taneyev (Melodiya LP), Busch (various,
including Pristine), Leipzig (MDG), Hagen (DG), and honorable mention to the Brandis
(Orfeo, not Nimbus). I also like the Verdi SQ; their set of the quartets on
Haenssler is a fine bargain, and it includes a good performance of D956 (with Martin
Lovett, late of the Amadeus SQ) sans first-movement repeat, iirc. (I deeply regret
its absence myself, esp. in the great Budapest/B. Heifetz recording.)
AC
Steve Emerson
Alan Cooper <amco...@NOSPAMoptonline.net> wrote:
> EM <emmemmme...@gnail.com> wrote in
> news:4e2f2d6c$0$30707$5fc...@news.tiscali.nl:
>
> > mandryka <howie...@googlemail.com> - Tue, 26 Jul 2011
> > 10:07:05 -0700 (PDT):
> >
> >> BTW I have a similar problem with the G major quartet D887 --
> >> any suggestions for a good recording there would be
> >> appreciated!
> >
> > I always liked the Melos Quartett (Harmonia Mundi, not DG).
> > I have D887 on a twofer with D703, D804 and D810. It was
> > reissued on a budget-priced CD with D703 ('Quartettsatz') in
> > 2002.
>
> I don't remember about all the repeats in D887 recordings (I know the
> Budapest skip a few), but my favorite recordings in order are:
> Taneyev (Melodiya LP), Busch (various, including Pristine), Leipzig
> (MDG), Hagen (DG), and honorable mention to the Brandis (Orfeo, not
> Nimbus).
I agree pretty much with that batch, especially the first three. I do
favor the fierce Alban Berg Quartett analog recording over the Hagen.
This probably isn't in print. Recorded 1980 on EMI, with Hatto Beyerle,
not Kakuska, on viola.
--SE.
Sol L. Siegel
913a-7ac...@f20g2000yqm.googlegroups.com:
> BTW I have a similar problem with the G major quartet D887 -- any
> suugestions for a good recording there would be appreciated!
The first Brandis version on Orfeo (also a favorite of Simon
Roberts) - they play well and dig deep. Same with their 14.
Avoid their redo on Nimbus, surface-skimming and missing the
first-movement repeat. Indeed, their entire Nimbus late-
Schubert set is false economy.
Also in D. 887: Budapest. I know I'm not supposed to like it
because its from the LOC period (and AFAIK it's only available
with the LOC 13 & 14 and the Horszowski Trout on Biddulph).
And of course there's no repeat. But it gets directly to me
every time I listen to it.
If you're willing to go even farther back, there's always
Busch.
- Sol L. Siegel, Philadelphia, PA USA
herman
> I do
> favor the fierce Alban Berg Quartett analog recording over the Hagen.
> This probably isn't in print. Recorded 1980 on EMI, with Hatto Beyerle,
> not Kakuska, on viola.
>
> --SE.
>
The EMI recording, one of the last analogue recordings of the Alban
Berg Qtt is amazing, symphonic in its scope and very dramatic and yet
superbly detailed.
mandryka
I think and neither does Busch. Nor Budapest. I have no problem at
all with the quartet without that repeat.
I'm going to get the Tanyeev because it's very cheap and easy as an
amazon download here in the UK. I'll get the Panocha -- I know they
can sometimes but not always be great. And anyway I want to go to the
desert island with Andrej. I'll also get the Melos because I wa sooo
impressed by the way the helped me enjoy the repeats in the first
movement of the quintet -- like no one else had done.
Steve -- the EMI Alban Berg is on spotify (tu te dis "toujours la même
rangaine")Interesting to compare it side by side with the Hagen (which
I have on CD) -- I would never have done that if you hadn't mentioned
them in the same breath, and it shows how totally unique everything
about the Hagen is.
OT and BTW, since the chamber people are probably are here, have you
all seen the transfer of Enescu playing the Schumann second sonata on
symphonyshare. It's a late recording, he had arthritis badly at the
time, it's not as supple and plastic as his pre war recordings, but
man, this violinist can tell a real good story in the first movement
And also OT and BTW, this whole issue of repeats in Schubert is really
interesting. Is there anyone out there who likes Eduard Erdmann's
D960? He doesn't take the repeat in I, and the whole structure of the
sonata is changed. I is like a prelude to the real business of II, III
and IV.
H
Johannes Roehl
> In article<Xns9F2EBABA81E49am...@209.197.15.254>,
> Alan Cooper<amco...@NOSPAMoptonline.net> wrote:
>
>> EM<emmemmme...@gnail.com> wrote in
>> news:4e2f2d6c$0$30707$5fc...@news.tiscali.nl:
>>
>>> mandryka<howie...@googlemail.com> - Tue, 26 Jul 2011
>>> 10:07:05 -0700 (PDT):
>>>
>>>> BTW I have a similar problem with the G major quartet D887 --
>>>> any suggestions for a good recording there would be
>>>> appreciated!
>>>
>>> I always liked the Melos Quartett (Harmonia Mundi, not DG).
>>> I have D887 on a twofer with D703, D804 and D810. It was
>>> reissued on a budget-priced CD with D703 ('Quartettsatz') in
>>> 2002.
>>
>> I don't remember about all the repeats in D887 recordings (I know the
>> Budapest skip a few), but my favorite recordings in order are:
>> Taneyev (Melodiya LP), Busch (various, including Pristine), Leipzig
>> (MDG), Hagen (DG), and honorable mention to the Brandis (Orfeo, not
>> Nimbus).
>
> I agree pretty much with that batch, especially the first three. I do
> favor the fierce Alban Berg Quartett analog recording over the Hagen.
> This probably isn't in print. Recorded 1980 on EMI, with Hatto Beyerle,
> not Kakuska, on viola.
Note that this recording of D 887 does not have the first movement repeat.
There is an EMI 4 CD set of the ABQ Schubert recordings (incl. Quintet
with Schiff and Trout with Leonskaya) floating around, but I do not know
if it includes this recording of D 887 or a digital remake, if there is any?
I am quite sure they recorded the d minor and a minor both in digital
and analogue and the Quintet only digitally (in rather strident,
unpleasant sound)
mandryka
repeat, and wasn't special I thought, was with Kakuska. The good one
must be this one
Thanks everyone.
Johannes Roehl
> And also OT and BTW, this whole issue of repeats in Schubert is really
> interesting. Is there anyone out there who likes Eduard Erdmann's
> D960? He doesn't take the repeat in I, and the whole structure of the
> sonata is changed. I is like a prelude to the real business of II, III
> and IV.
Really? The first movement should even in a flowing tempo without repeat
last about 13-14 min and be the longest of the bunch. With ultra-slow
first mvmts including the repeat, however, this may last longer than the
remaining movements together, exaggerating an imbalance that is hardly
to be denied anyway.
I do not think this is such a problem with the quintet and the G major
quartet, because there the remaining movements are weightier than in the
B flat major sonata. Although I can be somewhat anal about repeats, to
be honest, Schubert is a case where I do sometimes prefer if they are
skipped.
Johannes
David Fox
A very interesting topic. I just heard Stephen Kovacevich play D.960
on Sunday night and he didn't take the repeat while he does in each of
his two recordings. I'm of a divided mind about performers taking
this repeat in concert. The movement is quite long and moves at a
leisurely pace (or in the case of Richter and Asseneiv, a funeral
pace). There is a crucial piece of music in the first ending that is
lost if the repeat isn't taken. However, in over 30-odd years of
concert-going I have never heard a performer maintain the audience's
concentration if they take the repeat (the two musicians listed above
are the exceptions that prove the rule but I was not fortunate enough
to hear either perform the piece live). Even Barenboim, otherwise
quite dogmatic in terms of textural fidelity, does not take the repeat
in concert. If there were any audience and setting a performer may
feel brave enough to indulge in the repeat it would be in such a
setting as Verbier, but I respect Kovacevich's decision. I'm sure
it's borne out of ample performing experience.
DF
Terry
That's good to know. When a repeat is indicate (and taken), it's only a
very dull performer indeed that regards this as just an invitation to "do
the same, again". In the repeat, a good performer will tell us something
more (or, in baroque music, will give us more in the form of extempore
decoration). In the specific case of the Melos/Rostropovich performance, I
can feel the screws being tightened appreciably in the repeat, and a real
sense of propulsion into the development at the end of it.
I must hear that Hagen performance.
--
Cheers, Terry
Terry
> Terry <bo...@clown.invalid> appears to have caused the following letters to be
> typed in news:0001HW.CA551853...@news.tpg.com.au:
>
>> On Tue, 26 Jul 2011 07:26:03 +1000, Oscar wrote
>> (in article
>> <b451c3fe-3871-49bb...@g3g2000prf.googlegroups.com>):
>>
>>> P.S. I am yet another admirer of the Belcea SQ + Erbern EMI recording,
>>> issued last year.
>>
>> Yes, me too. I forgot to mention it.
>
> Wasn't it some members of the Belcea SQ who recorded Schubert's "Trout" with
> Thomas Adès?
Sorry, I don't know. Perhaps someone else can oblige with this info.
--
Cheers, Terry
mandryka
Richter? And what about in the quintet and the G major Quartet?
I know you lose some good music if you don't take the repeat in D960,
but you have to deal with the fact that doing so makes the work a
sonata of two halves -- a weighty I and II and a trivial III and IV.
Johannes Roehl
But the repeat only exaggerates that effect. In no case are the 3rd and
fourth movement of D 960 as weighty as the first two. And the same holds
for D 959 and D 894. Of course this is also true for the Eroica and
almost any symphony by Haydn or Mozart, but some of the late Schubert
pieces seem to suffer from this fact whereas in the earlier classical
era it's just part of the aesthetic of a multi-movement work.
mandryka
In no case are the 3rd and fourth movement of D 960 as weighty as the
first two.
This is where we need to have listened to Erdmann's interpretation.
And Afanassiev's (maybe)
herman
Trivial is the wrong word.
Steve Emerson
<3a08d9fc-6987-4269...@v7g2000vbk.googlegroups.com>,
mandryka <howie...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Some of these [D. 887 recordings] don't take the first movement
> repeat -- Tanyeev doesn't
> I think and neither does Busch. Nor Budapest. I have no problem at
> all with the quartet without that repeat.
The Taneyev's is really sublime, but you're correct, it doesn't include
a first-movement repeat. And Johannes is right that the analog ABQ
recording doesn't either; I'd forgotten that. It is the one you linked
to in another post, just as you thought.
> I'm going to get the Tanyeev because it's very cheap and easy as an
> amazon download here in the UK.
I wonder what auspices that comes through. Was there ever a CD release?
> I'll get the Panocha -- I know they
> can sometimes but not always be great. And anyway I want to go to the
> desert island with Andrej. I'll also get the Melos because I wa sooo
> impressed by the way the helped me enjoy the repeats in the first
> movement of the quintet -- like no one else had done.
>
> Steve -- the EMI Alban Berg is on spotify (tu te dis "toujours la m�me
> rangaine")Interesting to compare it side by side with the Hagen (which
> I have on CD) -- I would never have done that if you hadn't mentioned
> them in the same breath, and it shows how totally unique everything
> about the Hagen is.
I highly recommend the Leipziger, possibly my favorite D. 887 of all,
and amply possessed of the first-movement repeat.
This is the disc that put them on the map.
Their D. 956 is also exceptional and of pantheon caliber for me (ditto
on the repeat for the quintet). Like the Petersens', it uses Thomas
Sanderling on extra cello. This appeared as Vol. 3 of their Schubert
series, the 887 being Volume 1.
Returning to the said 887 -- the Budapest's is a good performance that
is worth hearing. But I think it is somewhat akin to the one done by the
Juilliard in the Claus Adam era, on Columbia or Epic, and I prefer that
one on just about every basis. No repeat up front.
Amid all the competition, the Panocha did not turn out to be a keeper
for me.
SE.
Edward Cowan
performance! I have imprinted on it since it was available on LP. There
was an early CD version of it on a Columbia CD, and then there is the
more recent Sony CD in the Pablo Casals series on Sony. --E.A.C.
David Fox <davidf...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> My pick is the "sacred cow" - Casals, Stern, Tortelier, et al at
> Prades on Sony. It's one of the few sacred cows that deserve its
> status.
>
> DF
--
hrabanus
David Fox
wrote:
> What is your favorite recording of Schubert's string quintet D956 and
> why? Just being curious.
>
> Paul R.
FYI - just came back from the Verbier concert tonight which featured D.
956. They took the repeat.
DF
mandryka
> mandryka <howie.st...@googlemail.com> wrote innews:07cdc7e5-7c71-4236...@m8g2000yqo.googlegroups.c
> om:
>
> > Tatrai . . .uncanny . . . mmmm . . . intriguing . . . I've just
> > placed the order.
>
> I'll await your report. No one comes away from this performance unaffected one way
> or another.
>
> AC
Well you chose the right word. I would add driven, hard-hitting and
brutal.
The third movement is extraordinarily dark. I love the mad dash at the
end of the fourth movement. Even the adagio is like a disturbing
nightmare. They are unrelenting, disturbing and troubled. They don't
relax, don't smile, for a second.
It reminds me of Karajan's VPO late 40s Schubert 9 on EMI.
Do you know any other recordings which read Schubert's music in this
dark way?
Andrej Kluge
mandryka wrote:
>>> Tatrai . . .uncanny . . . mmmm . . . intriguing . . . I've just
>>> placed the order.
>>
>> I'll await your report. No one comes away from this performance
>> unaffected one way or another.
>
> Well you chose the right word. I would add driven, hard-hitting and
> brutal.
>
> The third movement is extraordinarily dark. I love the mad dash at the
> end of the fourth movement. Even the adagio is like a disturbing
> nightmare. They are unrelenting, disturbing and troubled. They don't
> relax, don't smile, for a second.
My copy hasn't arrived yet, I'm intrigued...
Ciao
AK
Alan Cooper
news:f59717e6-9220-4be7...@q1g2000vbj.googlegroups.c
om:
> On Jul 26, 7:06�pm, Alan Cooper <amcoo...@NOSPAMoptonline.net>
> wrote:
>> mandryka <howie.st...@googlemail.com> wrote
>> innews:07cdc7e5-7c71-4236-b07
> 8-fb7ab...@m8g2000yqo.googlegroups.c
>> om:
>>
>> > Tatrai . . .uncanny . . . mmmm . . . intriguing . . . I've
>> > just placed the order.
>>
>> I'll await your report. �No one comes away from this
>> performance unaffe
> cted one way
>> or another.
>>
>> AC
>
> Well you chose the right word. I would add driven, hard-hitting
> and brutal.
>
> The third movement is extraordinarily dark. I love the mad dash
> at the end of the fourth movement. Even the adagio is like a
> disturbing nightmare. They are unrelenting, disturbing and
> troubled. They don't relax, don't smile, for a second.
>
> It reminds me of Karajan's VPO late 40s Schubert 9 on EMI.
>
> Do you know any other recordings which read Schubert's music in
> this dark way?
Late Schubert as I hear it tends to be bitter, dark, and ironic, and those are the
qualities that I look for in performances. It's surprising how few recordings
bring those qualities to the fore except where they're right on the surface, as
they are in D.958. Sofronitsky in D.960 is the rare artist who "gets" the last
two movements as I hear them (first manic, then ironically nostalgic). I don't
know the Karajan/VPO reading of the 9th Symphony; my go-to recording is Van
Beinum's, but in truth I find the piece too sad to listen to often and prefer the
earlier symphonies.
Among the recordings of D.956 that I know, none captures the dark mood of the work
like the Tatrai's. L'Archibudelli come close in the outer movements, but they go
slack in the Adagio like just about everyone else except Smetana/Sadlo (yes, I
know the story behind that recording and still enjoy it).
Thanks for your comments on the Tatrai recording; I don't expect everyone to enjoy
it, but it's hard to get it out of your mind once you've heard it.
AC
Andrej Kluge
Alan Cooper wrote:
> mandryka <howie...@googlemail.com> wrote in
> news:f59717e6-9220-4be7...@q1g2000vbj.googlegroups.c
> om:
>> Well you chose the right word. I would add driven, hard-hitting
>> and brutal.
>>
>> The third movement is extraordinarily dark. I love the mad dash
>> at the end of the fourth movement. Even the adagio is like a
>> disturbing nightmare. They are unrelenting, disturbing and
>> troubled. They don't relax, don't smile, for a second.
>
[...]
>
> Among the recordings of D.956 that I know, none captures the dark
> mood of the work like the Tatrai's. L'Archibudelli come close in
> the outer movements, but they go slack in the Adagio like just
> about everyone else except Smetana/Sadlo (yes, I know the story
> behind that recording and still enjoy it).
>
> Thanks for your comments on the Tatrai recording; I don't expect
> everyone to enjoy it, but it's hard to get it out of your mind once
> you've heard it.
My copy of the Tatrai arrived yesterday, I listened to it today.
I must say I was somewhat disappointed, to put it mildly.
To the contrary of what was announced (dark, hard-hitting, disturbing,
brutal etc) I found it rather meek overall, compared to other recordings.
Moreover, I constantly was under the impression that they didn't rehearse
hard enough before going into the studio: the phrasing is sloppy in many
places, and they often play out of sync (examples: 1st mvmt. at 1:14 and
from 3:17 thoughout 3:45)
The 2nd movement: while I have no objections to it being played faster than
usual, I was astonished that the cello keeps butting in with its pizzicato
part (from the very beginning of that movement) far too early every other
time. I looked up the score: there is nothing that justified such playing.
Particularly as the 1st violin, when it (along with the cello) repeats that
pizzicato phrase at the end of the movement (from 8:50), doesn't do that.
The 3rd and 4th movements appear a little dragging, lacking energy, for my
taste.
All in all, not a pleasant experience, I am sorry to say. Are we talking
about the same Tatrai recording here?
Well, I stick to the Villiger then. No hard feelings.
Ciao
AK
PS: what *was* the story behind the Suk recording?
Alan Cooper
news:99tgkf...@mid.individual.net:
> Hi,
>
> Alan Cooper wrote:
>> mandryka <howie...@googlemail.com> wrote in
>> news:f59717e6-9220-4be7...@q1g2000vbj.googlegroup
>> s.c om:
Clearly we're hearing two different performances, albeit derived from the same
recording. There's nothing odd or paradoxical about that: it happens all the
time. I don't deny the occasional technical shortcomings, and even acknowledge
that listening to this performance is not always "pleasant," but there is
something about the basic sound and conception that I find compelling, and the
term "uncanny" that I used in my original post applies particularly to the eerie
and distinctive sound that Tatrai himself produces.
Btw, referring to your favorite recording I assume that you mean "Vellinger"
rather than Villiger. Whatever, I regret that I have not been able to hear it
because it seems to be utterly unavailable. Do I infer correctly that it was
issued by the BBC but was not available through regular commercial channels?
AC
John Wiser
>
> Btw, referring to your favorite recording I assume that you mean
> "Vellinger"
> rather than Villiger. Whatever, I regret that I have not been able to
> hear it
> because it seems to be utterly unavailable. Do I infer correctly that it
> was
> issued by the BBC but was not available through regular commercial
> channels?
>
Not all that unavailable, and if the example above is typical, not exactly
pricey.
I believe I have a copy in my slush pile, and will try to locate it.
It turns up all the time in the cheap bins of a brick & mortar vendor {who
shall remain
nameless] situated not very far away from you in a southwesterly direction.
As for Tatrais/Szilvasy, I like that quartet a lot, but get the impression
that
they are uneasy with Schubert.
JDW
Lena
> Alan Cooper wrote:
>> mandryka<howie...@googlemail.com> wrote in
>> news:f59717e6-9220-4be7...@q1g2000vbj.googlegroups.c
>> om:
[Tatrai/Szekely]
>>> Well you chose the right word. I would add driven, hard-hitting
>>> and brutal.
>>>
>>> The third movement is extraordinarily dark. I love the mad dash
>>> at the end of the fourth movement. Even the adagio is like a
>>> disturbing nightmare. They are unrelenting, disturbing and
>>> troubled. They don't relax, don't smile, for a second.
>>
> [...]
>>
>> Among the recordings of D.956 that I know, none captures the dark
>> mood of the work like the Tatrai's.[...]
>
> My copy of the Tatrai arrived yesterday, I listened to it today.
>
> I must say I was somewhat disappointed, to put it mildly.
>
> To the contrary of what was announced (dark, hard-hitting, disturbing,
> brutal etc) I found it rather meek overall, compared to other recordings.
>
> Moreover, I constantly was under the impression that they didn't rehearse
> hard enough before going into the studio: the phrasing is sloppy in many
> places, and they often play out of sync (examples: 1st mvmt. at 1:14 and
> from 3:17 thoughout 3:45)
>
> The 2nd movement: while I have no objections to it being played faster than
> usual, I was astonished that the cello keeps butting in with its pizzicato
> part (from the very beginning of that movement) far too early every other
> time.
Hm. I haven't heard this. Actually, since dire and black Schubert can
feel rather horrible (I think AC is right about D. 960/iii-iv), I didn't
think I'd get this recording...
But now I'm curious about how this actually sounds -- all in all, what
you're saying (as in "pizzicato far too early") seems a bit unusual as
an accidental ensemble problem for a serious quartet. (The Tatrai
aren't generally that free/undisciplined/underrehearsed (though I
haven't heard them in Schubert).)
Maybe there's some another explanation... :) (They picked up the second
cellist in a park on their way to the studio? OK, I guess not. :) )
I don't object to your objections or preferences, of course. It's just
interesting that the discrepancy between views is this sizable.
(In case I do get to this at some point, what was the other sloppiness
in phrasing that you didn't like? If you're still willing to expound on
this.)
Thanks,
Lena
[...]
Andrej Kluge
John Wiser wrote:
>>
>
http://cgi.ebay.com/Schubert-String-Quintet-C-Vellinger-Quartet-/350364254735
>
> Not all that unavailable, and if the example above is typical, not
> exactly pricey.
This copy went to me last week, sorry. Because I only had the Rapidshare
files so far, and I wanted to have the "real thing".
Ciao
AK
Andrej Kluge
Alan Cooper wrote:
[my criticism cut]
> Clearly we're hearing two different performances, albeit derived
> from the same recording. There's nothing odd or paradoxical about
> that: it happens all the time.
True, don't we know that all :)
> performance is not always "pleasant," but there is something about
> the basic sound and conception that I find compelling, and the term
> "uncanny" that I used in my original post applies particularly to
> the eerie and distinctive sound that Tatrai himself produces.
The sound is indeed very direct (as with the Hungarian Qtt/Varga)
> Btw, referring to your favorite recording I assume that you mean
> "Vellinger" rather than Villiger.
Yes, of course you're right.
> Whatever, I regret that I have not been able to hear it because it
> seems to be utterly unavailable. Do I infer correctly that it was
> issued by the BBC but was not available through regular commercial
> channels?
I suppose so, I found them on the internet (and was able to get the CD
through ebay only last week), after a recommendation from a German classical
forum. The Rapidshare links are gone by now, too, it seems.
Ciao
AK
Alan Cooper
> Hello,
>
> Alan Cooper wrote:
>> Btw, referring to your favorite recording I assume that you
>> mean "Vellinger" rather than Villiger.
>
> Yes, of course you're right.
>
>> Whatever, I regret that I have not been able to hear it because
>> it seems to be utterly unavailable. Do I infer correctly that
>> it was issued by the BBC but was not available through regular
>> commercial channels?
>
> I suppose so, I found them on the internet (and was able to get
> the CD through ebay only last week), after a recommendation from
> a German classical forum. The Rapidshare links are gone by now,
> too, it seems.
I've been on the same trail, but a little behind you :-) I noted the already-sold
ebay copy (and I'm glad it went to you!) and also the no-longer-operative
Rapidshare links. The quest is fun in a weird way, diverting one's mind from
truly serious matters.
Alan
Johannes Roehl
> I don't deny the occasional technical shortcomings, and even acknowledge
> that listening to this performance is not always "pleasant," but there is
> something about the basic sound and conception that I find compelling, and the
> term "uncanny" that I used in my original post applies particularly to the eerie
> and distinctive sound that Tatrai himself produces.
When was this recorded? I managed to find the CD (have not listened yet)
in a Capriccio "Schubert Edition" from '96, but there is no info on the
recording date of the Tatrai/Szilvasy quintet. Does anyone know?
Presumably rather early/mid-eighties than mid-nineties?
Johannes
Frank Berger
I have it on 1987 Hungarton release, also without recording information.
Lena
> On 8/3/2011 10:59 AM, Andrej Kluge wrote:
>
>> Alan Cooper wrote:
>>> mandryka<howie...@googlemail.com> wrote in
>>> news:f59717e6-9220-4be7...@q1g2000vbj.googlegroups.c
>>> om:
>
I'll correct the name of the cellist:
> [Tatrai/Szilvasy]
(But, sorry, will have to remain a tiny bit skeptical about some of the
descriptions below, at least for now. Until maybe confirmed by some
more close-by set of ears.)
L.
>>
>> I must say I was somewhat disappointed, to put it mildly.
>>
>> To the contrary of what was announced (dark, hard-hitting disturbing,
O
Cooper <amco...@NOSPAMoptonline.net> wrote:
I just listened to the Borodin recording, available through the free
Spotify account. It has wonderful recorded sound, but I wouldn't
typify it as bitter, dark, or ironic. The word that does come to mind
as I hear it is "open." The music is played plainly and
straightforwardly, and technically excellent with a wonderful warm
tone. If you are looking for an account that "let's the music speak
for itself," you might find the Borodin worthwhile.
-Owen
Andrej Kluge
Lena wrote:
> (But, sorry, will have to remain a tiny bit skeptical about some of
> the descriptions below, at least for now. Until maybe confirmed by
> some more close-by set of ears.)
No problem, to each his own. See (or hear) for yourself :)
I know I am rather nitpicky -- I have 14 recordings of D.956 (Rosamunde,
Emerson, Hungarian, Leipziger, Lindsays, Peterson, Prazak, Berg, Cleveland,
Netherlands Wind Ensemble (!), Orpheus, Tatrai, Vellinger and Endres), and
the only ones I put on my iPod for extended listening are Vellinger and
Orpheus (and the winds version which I haven't heard yet though). When I
listen to a new recording, the first two or three "bloopers" are enough for
me to ditch that recording entirely. Strange tempo variations, lingering on
the wrong note etc. are issues that distract me from hearing the work
itself, and this annoys me. Mainly when it interrupts the natural flow of
the music (as I see it). Then I think I don't have to waste my time with it,
there are plenty of other recordings to choose from. They had their chance
and they ruined it. [anyone familiar with Family Guy? Because this just
reminded me of how Stewie pronounced it :) Ok, never mind] The
disappointment is of course bigger if recording in question has been highly
recommended before.
Other things that put me off are the general sound like the Hungarian
Quartet (in this case) or the Tokyo Quartet (in Haydn's op. 76) or the
Leipziger Quartet who use too much vibrato to my taste (however short the
damned note is they're playing -- this must be some kind of restless finger
syndrome :-).
I know I am a bloody fusspot, but that's how it is. Mercifully, there *are*
performers who do it as I want :)
Ciao
AK
Kip Williams
> When I
> listen to a new recording, the first two or three "bloopers" are enough for
> me to ditch that recording entirely. Strange tempo variations, lingering on
> the wrong note etc. are issues that distract me from hearing the work
> itself, and this annoys me. Mainly when it interrupts the natural flow of
> the music (as I see it). Then I think I don't have to waste my time with it,
> there are plenty of other recordings to choose from. They had their chance
> and they ruined it. [anyone familiar with Family Guy?
Yeah, and I see the comparison. I watched the first show, and it was
awful. No idea of what a joke was or what to do with one when they got
it. I watched the second show, and it was no better.
People in an animation newsgroup swore up and down that the show was bad
at first, but had gotten better, so I watched one or two more, and they
were still bad. Then they said, well, yeah, but -now- it's good.
I may have watched a half dozen episodes by the time I gave myself
permanent permission to stop checking in. Even at that, I've seen bits
and pieces now and then, and found that my decision was correct. What a
load of crap.
Kip W
Andrej Kluge
I wrote:
> version which I haven't heard yet though). When I listen to a new
> recording, the first two or three "bloopers" are enough for me to
> ditch that recording entirely. Strange tempo variations, lingering
> on the wrong note etc. are issues that distract me from hearing the
> work itself, and this annoys me.
One recent example: I just got word from HMV Japan that there's a new CD of
D.929 by a trio called Trio Dali. So I went to Amazon, looked up the CD and
tried the samples:
http://www.amazon.de/Schubert-Trios-Sonate-%C2%AB-Arpeggione-%C2%BB-Fantaisie/dp/B0052CVZV4/
At the end of the (30 sec?) sample, those folks missed the reentry (after
the piano up-scale) by half a second. This is not acceptable, at least to my
standards. One recording less to deal with (I spare my time to listen to the
other samples).
I may have mentioned it here before: one example of a truly outstanding
performance of chamber music as I like it is the (Italian) Quartetto
Beethoven's recording of LvB's early piano quartets. Straightforward,
unpretentious playing, up to the task, not trying to alter the piece in
order to boast or to be different, just playing what's in the score.
Ciao
AK
Andrej Kluge
Kip Williams wrote:
> Yeah, and I see the comparison.
Do you? When you only saw the first 2 or 3 seasons? :-) Admittedly, only as
from season 6 it really takes off.
> People in an animation newsgroup swore up and down that the show
> was bad at first, but had gotten better, so I watched one or two
> more, and they were still bad.
Right, from season 6 it gets better and better. Promised. I watched season
5 - 9 in a row and was hooked. Especially the sole "Brian and Stewie"
episodes (where it gets quite philosophical)
Anyway, this particular bit was about Stewie pronouncing "ruined" verbatim,
which put Brian off. (this evolved into a running gag with "Will Whaeton"
and "cool whip" later, see http://familyguy.wikia.com/wiki/Cool_Whip)
Ciao
AK
Matthew�B.�Tepper
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!!
"I don�t think right-wing social engineering is any more desirable
than left-wing social engineering. I don�t think imposing radical
change from the right or the left is a very good way for a free
society to operate. I think we need a national conversation to get
to a better Medicare system with more choices for seniors." Former
Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich on "Meet the Press" 15 May 2011
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers.
Lena
> Hi,
>
> Lena wrote:
>> (But, sorry, will have to remain a tiny bit skeptical about some of
>> the descriptions below, at least for now. Until maybe confirmed by
>> some more close-by set of ears.)
>
> No problem, to each his own. See (or hear) for yourself :)
>
> I know I am rather nitpicky -- I have 14 recordings of D.956 (Rosamunde,
> Emerson, Hungarian, Leipziger, Lindsays, Peterson, Prazak, Berg, Cleveland,
> Netherlands Wind Ensemble (!), Orpheus, Tatrai, Vellinger and Endres), and
> the only ones I put on my iPod for extended listening are Vellinger and
> Orpheus (and the winds version which I haven't heard yet though). When I
> listen to a new recording, the first two or three "bloopers" are enough for
> me to ditch that recording entirely. Strange tempo variations, lingering on
> the wrong note etc. are issues that distract me from hearing the work
> itself, and this annoys me. Mainly when it interrupts the natural flow of
> the music (as I see it). Then I think I don't have to waste my time with it,
> there are plenty of other recordings to choose from. They had their chance
> and they ruined it.
(laugh)
> [anyone familiar with Family Guy? Because this just
> reminded me of how Stewie pronounced it :) Ok, never mind]
I've seen one episode, and didn't last long at King of the Hill, either.
:) Somehow, in comparison, Homer Simpson seemed like a
Rimbaud-reading, nectar-sipping patrician intellectual.
>The disappointment is of course bigger if recording in question has
been highly
> recommended before.
Yes, I can see that.... Though then, as a bonus, you get a good look at
how differently people hear stuff -- the questions raised are
fascinating; almost more interesting than any of the performances
themselves. :)
>
> Other things that put me off are the general sound like the Hungarian
> Quartet (in this case) or the Tokyo Quartet (in Haydn's op. 76) or the
> Leipziger Quartet who use too much vibrato to my taste (however short the
> damned note is they're playing -- this must be some kind of restless finger
> syndrome :-).
>
> I know I am a bloody fusspot, but that's how it is.
You're an inspiration (to at least me). One can only have respect for
the effort expended at fussing in style... :)
So, being something of a frenetic fusspot myself, I sympathize. Afaic,
the fussing was quite admirable, and carry on. :)
L.
Kip Williams
>> Yeah, and I see the comparison.
>
> Do you? When you only saw the first 2 or 3 seasons? :-) Admittedly, only as
> from season 6 it really takes off.
That's a song so old as to belong in a classical group. Yeah, I've
looked in on it, and it's the same old song.
Kip W
Lena
>
> I know I am rather nitpicky -- I have 14 recordings of D.956 (Rosamunde,
> Emerson, Hungarian, Leipziger, Lindsays, Peterson, Prazak, Berg, Cleveland,
> Netherlands Wind Ensemble (!), Orpheus, Tatrai, Vellinger and Endres),
Artemis + Truls Mork? (Too much vibrato?)
Or Hagen + Schiff? Mentioned elsewhere here. It's not so dark, but
very dramatic anyway, and very well played.
Actually, I really rather like the Hagen's Schubert, in general; perhaps
it's a bit more colorful and so goes slightly against
"the-full-steam-ahead-with-the-despair, sailors"-approach. (Besides,
all late Schubert is dark, bad, and brutal enough for me, thanks! :) )
The Hagen Quartet + Schiff CD has one thing in addition. (Or perhaps I
shouldn't say "in addition". :) ) -- It contains one of the, if I may
say so, finest recorded Grosse Fuges I know.
(This for those who like to concentrate most of their fussing on this
eminently fussable-about piece. :) )
Lena
Matthew B. Tepper
letters to be typed in news:9a06ph...@mid.individual.net:
> I know I am rather nitpicky -- I have 14 recordings of D.956 (Rosamunde,
> Emerson, Hungarian, Leipziger, Lindsays, Peterson, Prazak, Berg,
> Cleveland, Netherlands Wind Ensemble (!),
Elaborate on that last one, please.
Alan Cooper
> Hi,
>
> Lena wrote:
>> (But, sorry, will have to remain a tiny bit skeptical about
>> some of the descriptions below, at least for now. Until maybe
>> confirmed by some more close-by set of ears.)
>
> No problem, to each his own. See (or hear) for yourself :)
>
> I know I am rather nitpicky -- I have 14 recordings of D.956
> (Rosamunde, Emerson, Hungarian, Leipziger, Lindsays, Peterson,
> Prazak, Berg, Cleveland, Netherlands Wind Ensemble (!), Orpheus,
> Tatrai, Vellinger and Endres), and the only ones I put on my
> iPod for extended listening are Vellinger and Orpheus (and the
> winds version which I haven't heard yet though).
Not that you need another one, but did you try Arcanto/Marron?
http://www.mediafire.com/?fnnmg1om2g4
AC
Andrej Kluge
Matthew B. Tepper wrote:
>> I know I am rather nitpicky -- I have 14 recordings of D.956
>> (Rosamunde, Emerson, Hungarian, Leipziger, Lindsays, Peterson,
>> Prazak, Berg, Cleveland, Netherlands Wind Ensemble (!),
>
> Elaborate on that last one, please.
It's a recording of 2008 of the quintet played by the Netherland Wind
Ensemble, plus Liza Ferschtman (violin), Aidan Pendleton (viola), Mick
Stirling (cello) and Wilmar de Visser (bass). Transcribed by Ulrich
Leyendecker in 1946. I had downloaded it from the internet somewhere,
probably from an official site (there is an original and complete CD booklet
attached, PDF, no scan).
Ciao
AK
Andrej Kluge
Alan Cooper wrote:
>
> Not that you need another one, but did you try Arcanto/Marron?
> http://www.mediafire.com/?fnnmg1om2g4
No, but thanks, I will. :)
Ciao
AK
Andrej Kluge
Lena wrote:
> Artemis + Truls Mork? (Too much vibrato?)
>
> Or Hagen + Schiff? Mentioned elsewhere here. It's not so dark, but
> very dramatic anyway, and very well played.
Haven't heard either of them. I shy away from the Hagen since I have bought
their Mozart Kleine Nachtmusik CD (plus the K.136-138 divertimentos) and was
appalled by its downdyness.
> Actually, I really rather like the Hagen's Schubert, in general;
> perhaps it's a bit more colorful and so goes slightly against
> "the-full-steam-ahead-with-the-despair, sailors"-approach.
Ok, I'll try to find online samples.
Thanks and Ciao
AK
Andrej Kluge
Lena wrote:
>> The disappointment is of course bigger if recording in question has
> been highly recommended before.
>
> Yes, I can see that.... Though then, as a bonus, you get a good look
> at how differently people hear stuff -- the questions raised are
> fascinating; almost more interesting than any of the performances
> themselves. :)
Yes, I see that all the time. I don't give up hope yet that sometime I'll
find a musical soulmate, someone who shares my tastes and preferences, and
whose recommendations I can trust blindly :)
> You're an inspiration (to at least me). One can only have respect for
> the effort expended at fussing in style... :)
Huh? Sorry, didn't mean to be inspiring in the least :-) Thanks for the
compliment though.
Ciao
AK
Andrej Kluge
Lena wrote:
> (In case I do get to this at some point, what was the other sloppiness
> in phrasing that you didn't like? If you're still willing to expound
> on this.)
Hm, that would mean I'd have to go through that again (with pencil and
paper, noting down the time codes ;-)
Well, mostly it's just small things, but they add up to the overall picture.
I admid that as soon as I had made up my mind about the recording I got
prick-eared and only waited to find any flaws to sneer at. That's a streak
of mine I'll have to work on.
Ciao
AK
Matthew�B.�Tepper
Strange! Thank you.
Robert Marshall
ISTR getting it off the Radio 4 Netherlands site
Robert
--
La grenouille songe..dans son château d'eau
Links and things http://rmstar.blogspot.com/
Lena
>
>
> I must say I was somewhat disappointed, to put it mildly.
>
> brutal etc) I found it rather meek overall, compared to other recordings.
>
> Moreover, I constantly was under the impression that they didn't rehearse
>
> The 2nd movement: while I have no objections to it being played faster than
> usual, I was astonished that the cello keeps butting in with its pizzicato
> part (from the very beginning of that movement) far too early every other
I just checked this opening, and there's nothing weird happening;
certainly nothing in the score prohibits what they're doing. If
we're now talking about the same pizzicato. :)
That is, like it or not like it, it's just standard timing nuance...
Also, it seems kind of evident, I think, that there is an idea
to what they're up to: they want to emphasize the pizzicatoing
cello as a self-standing entity in a "conversation" with the
quartet. (The quartet members are pinned tight, and the
second cello moves about just a little more freely.)
It makes sense to interpret the texture this way, if one is
inclined to do this, so I sincerely doubt it's a "mistake"...
Sure, then there are versions where the pizzicato just acts as
an adjunct to the quartet; that sounds pretty good also.
Anyway, all those doings are legitimate, I think.
(I only heard the beginning of the Adagio in a sample, so I can't say
about the other objections.)
[From elsewhere: ]
> I may have mentioned it here before: one example of a truly
> outstanding performance of chamber music as I like it is the
> (Italian) Quartetto Beethoven's recording of LvB's early piano
> quartets. Straightforward, unpretentious playing, up to the task,
> not trying to alter the piece in order to boast or to be different,
I haven't heard them, but I did have an idea about your taste for
"straight" performances. (This got discussed before...)
> just playing what's in the score.
Ehm. :) Here, I'll just try to conjure up Simon's newsgroup spirit. :)
I think I understand what you're saying, though I don't completely
agree with it -- and lots of thanks for being so generous with
your views.
L.
Lena
OK, but I might work on the 'flaw' nomenclature before anything else.
Like in the case of the Adagio opening, you're not hearing flaws.
You're hearing another conception.
L.
Andrej Kluge
Lena wrote:
> I just checked this opening, and there's nothing weird happening;
> certainly nothing in the score prohibits what they're doing. If
> we're now talking about the same pizzicato. :)
>
> That is, like it or not like it, it's just standard timing nuance...
Really? I just listened to it again, and again it struck me right in the
face. It always happens when his pizzicato is due during the sustained notes
of the other parts. When it is due together with the beginning of a note by
another instrument, it is timed correctly. Curious, this... (that others
don't hear it)
> Also, it seems kind of evident, I think, that there is an idea
> to what they're up to: they want to emphasize the pizzicatoing
> cello as a self-standing entity in a "conversation" with the
> quartet. (The quartet members are pinned tight, and the
> second cello moves about just a little more freely.)
Hm, I wonder what might justify that?
> Sure, then there are versions where the pizzicato just acts as
> an adjunct to the quartet; that sounds pretty good also.
Well, in the score all parts are equally labelled, volume-wise (beginning
with pp). So I guess Schubert didn't want one part emphasized above the
others :-)
>> just playing what's in the score.
>
> Ehm. :) Here, I'll just try to conjure up Simon's newsgroup spirit.
> :)
Yes, I remember having liked his reviews (and mostly, I liked the recordings
he liked too)
> I think I understand what you're saying, though I don't completely
> agree with it -- and lots of thanks for being so generous with
> your views.
No need to thank me. This ng is the only place I can rant about it, since
none of my friends is into classical music.
Equally nice to talk to you about it :)
Ciao
AK
Andrej Kluge
> Alan Cooper wrote:
>>
>> Not that you need another one, but did you try Arcanto/Marron?
>> http://www.mediafire.com/?fnnmg1om2g4
I have listened to the first five minutes, and must say that I am pleasantly
surprised so far. I will hear the entire work next week and revert.
Thanks for the link.
Ciao
AK
Johannes Roehl
> I just checked this opening, and there's nothing weird happening;
> certainly nothing in the score prohibits what they're doing. If
> we're now talking about the same pizzicato. :)
>
> That is, like it or not like it, it's just standard timing nuance...
>
> Also, it seems kind of evident, I think, that there is an idea
> to what they're up to: they want to emphasize the pizzicatoing
> cello as a self-standing entity in a "conversation" with the
> quartet. (The quartet members are pinned tight, and the
> second cello moves about just a little more freely.)
>
> It makes sense to interpret the texture this way, if one is
> inclined to do this, so I sincerely doubt it's a "mistake"...
> Sure, then there are versions where the pizzicato just acts as
> an adjunct to the quartet; that sounds pretty good also.
>
> Anyway, all those doings are legitimate, I think.
>
> (I only heard the beginning of the Adagio in a sample, so I can't say
> about the other objections.)
I got the disc yesterday and listened through it once (not very
thoroughly, though). I am not sure if I hear all the bleakness Alan ans
Steve were talking about. But they certainly do not strive for pretty
sounds. The second "singing" cello theme in the 1st mvmt. is not such a
strong contrast as in many other performances, no wallowing allowed here.
Neither as you have probably heard, in the uncommonly fast 2nd movement,
where many ensembles do create an otherworldly beautiful soundscape in
the first part. I agree with Andrej that the outer parts of the Scherzo
could be more lively, but I think the finale is fine.
Just as first impressions, contrasts are not as strong as e.g. the
lively part of the scherzo is somewhat "leaden" and, as pointed out",
the adagio quite fast, not too quiet and beautiful, thus the wild
central section doesn't stick out in the way it usually does. It may
also not be played as dramatic as others do.
I don't really know too many recordings of the music well enough, but
the adagio is a little fast for my taste and I like it if there are
stronger contrasts. But the outer movements I liked quite a bit at first
listening.
> [From elsewhere: ]
>
> > I may have mentioned it here before: one example of a truly
> > outstanding performance of chamber music as I like it is the
> > (Italian) Quartetto Beethoven's recording of LvB's early piano
> > quartets. Straightforward, unpretentious playing, up to the task,
> > not trying to alter the piece in order to boast or to be different,
>
> I haven't heard them, but I did have an idea about your taste for
> "straight" performances. (This got discussed before...)
Actually for me it was almost certain that Andrej would not like the
Tatrai recording, just from Alan's and Steve's description and from
Andrej's preferences for "straight", "clean" etc. performances as
expressed in his postings here. But as I hadn't listened to the
performance, I could hardly warn him...
Johannes
Andrej Kluge
Johannes Roehl wrote:
[a very interesting view]
> Actually for me it was almost certain that Andrej would not like the
> Tatrai recording, just from Alan's and Steve's description and from
> Andrej's preferences for "straight", "clean" etc. performances as
> expressed in his postings here. But as I hadn't listened to the
> performance, I could hardly warn him...
Thanks for your concern though :-) And thanks for that review of yours, much
appreciated.
Ciao
AK
Alan Cooper
Thanks to everyone who has been contributing to this thread for the civilized and
insightful discussion!
AC
Lena
> Am 05.08.2011 20:10, schrieb Lena:
>
>> I just checked this opening, and there's nothing weird happening;
>> certainly nothing in the score prohibits what they're doing. If
>> we're now talking about the same pizzicato. :)
>>
>> [...]
>> (I only heard the beginning of the Adagio in a sample, so I can't say
>> about the other objections.)
>
> I got the disc yesterday and listened through it once (not very
> thoroughly, though). I am not sure if I hear all the bleakness Alan ans
> Steve were talking about.
(Alan and Howard...?)
> But they certainly do not strive for pretty
> sounds. The second "singing" cello theme in the 1st mvmt. is not such a
> strong contrast as in many other performances, no wallowing allowed here.
> Neither as you have probably heard, in the uncommonly fast 2nd movement,
> where many ensembles do create an otherworldly beautiful soundscape in
> the first part. I agree with Andrej that the outer parts of the Scherzo
> could be more lively, but I think the finale is fine.
> Just as first impressions, contrasts are not as strong as e.g. the
> lively part of the scherzo is somewhat "leaden" and, as pointed out",
> the adagio quite fast, not too quiet and beautiful, thus the wild
> central section doesn't stick out in the way it usually does. It may
> also not be played as dramatic as others do.
>
That's all very interesting, thank you.
> I don't really know too many recordings of the music well enough, but
> the adagio is a little fast for my taste and I like it if there are
> stronger contrasts.
Yes -- the two versions (of the ones I have) that I'm happiest with, the
Leipzig and the Hagen, have pretty strong contrasts. But it's difficult
to not find an unexpected slant on a well-known piece intriguing. (So
if I didn't have many parallel curiosity bouts in effect already...)
>
>
>> [From elsewhere: ]
>>
[...]
>
> Actually for me it was almost certain that Andrej would not like the
> Tatrai recording, just from Alan's and Steve's description and from
> Andrej's preferences for "straight", "clean" etc. performances as
> expressed in his postings here. But as I hadn't listened to the
> performance, I could hardly warn him...
>
Yes... But I'm still impressed by your soothsaying ability. (People I
try this soothsaying thing with never do what I expect them to do. :) )
Lena