Meistersinger - Historical
Andy Evans
Melodram (Ita) - #10038 / Release: March 20, 2001 Audio CD
More generally, I'm pretty unsatisfied with the Stereo Meistersingers -
Quite like Karajan 2, less so Solti 2. Prefer the mono Kempe to either. So I
wondered if going back in time would give me a really great Meistersinger.
I've been trying to play excerpts in RealAudio from Amazon.de but the delay
and sound quality is a pain. The 1944 Bohm sounds hopeful to me. Can anyone
fill me in on the best historical versions?
--
Andy Evans: an...@artsandmedia.com
Visit our website: http://www.artsandmedia.com
richard loeb
broadcast. Suthaus is far superior to Seider as Walther and Schoffler is
better on stage. I actually think that Scheppan is every bit as good as
Seefried whose voice was a little light at this point in her career for this
music.The sound is quite good and it certainly catches the excitement of a
live performance. Note that the beginning of the third Act of the Bohm
recording is missing up to the beginning of the monologue - it is replaced
with the same section from the 43 bayreuth performance
"Andy Evans" <arts.ps...@cwcom.net> wrote in message
news:BAXn6.14762$Cq.309716@news2-hme0...
Stephen W. Worth
<arts.ps...@cwcom.net> wrote:
> More generally, I'm pretty unsatisfied with the Stereo Meistersingers -
> Quite like Karajan 2, less so Solti 2. Prefer the mono Kempe to either.
Have you heard the Sawallish? That's my favorite version. It
has a nice live feel to it. Not perfect, but darn good.
> The 1944 Bohm sounds hopeful to me.
I just transferred bits of this from 78s. Unfortunately, the set
I got had a lot of missing records. The bits I did hear sounded
wonderful.
See ya
Steve
--
Visit Spumco's Wonderful World of Cartoons:
http://www.spumco.com alt.animation.spumco
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Learn about animation art (without going BROKE!)
Vintage Ink & Paint http://www.vintageip.com
Stephen W. Worth
loeb" <loe...@home.com> wrote:
> I actually prefer the 43 Bayreuth Meistersinger to the 44 Bohm radio
> broadcast.
The version I have is The Saxon State Orchestra with the
Dresden State Opera Chorus. I think it is a different
recording than the one you are referring to. I'm guessing
this was recorded before the war.
The leads are Hans Hermann Nissen as Sachs, Torsten Ralf
as Walther, Margarete Teschemacher as Eva, Sven Nilsson as
Pogner, Arno Schellenberg as Kothner and Eugen Fuchs as
Beckmesser. The third act was released on Victor's Musical
Masterpiece series as M-537.
Andy Evans
1943 performance referred to? I'm sitting here listening to excerpts from
the Tower site in RealAudio. The 1952 Knappertsbusch also sounds pretty good
to me. I listened to some excerpts by Schorr which were wonderful, but I'm
looking for the whole opera in the first place.
--
Andy Evans: an...@artsandmedia.com
Visit our website: http://www.artsandmedia.com
Stephen W. Worth <big...@spumco.com> wrote in message
news:bigshot-0203...@10.1.1.8...
Tony Movshon
> I saw this in amazom.com and wondered which recording it referred to:
> Melodram (Ita) - #10038 / Release: March 20, 2001 Audio CD
>
> More generally, I'm pretty unsatisfied with the Stereo Meistersingers -
> Quite like Karajan 2, less so Solti 2. Prefer the mono Kempe to either. So I
> wondered if going back in time would give me a really great Meistersinger.
> I've been trying to play excerpts in RealAudio from Amazon.de but the delay
> and sound quality is a pain. The 1944 Bohm sounds hopeful to me. Can anyone
> fill me in on the best historical versions?
*The* historical Meistersinger is the Wartime Abendroth, with Schoeffler,
from Bayreuth 1943. It's a great performance, and the sound is a cut above
the wartime average (at least on Presier, which is how I have it).
--
Tony Movshon mov...@nyu.edu
Edward A. Cowan
> Can you give CD details for recordings that have been reissued? e.g. the
> 1943 performance referred to? I'm sitting here listening to excerpts from
> the Tower site in RealAudio. The 1952 Knappertsbusch also sounds pretty good
> to me. I listened to some excerpts by Schorr which were wonderful, but I'm
> looking for the whole opera in the first place.
Two performances of _Die Meistersinger_ from Bayreuth, 1943, have been
published. One, cond. Furtwängler, is not quite complete, missing a
segment from Act 1 and (alas!) the Quintet from Act 3. I have this on
Electrola LPs. The other one was cond. Hermann Abendroth and is
published on Preiser CD's. This is complete in very good sound for the
period. Though I cherish the Furtwängler, the Abendroth is, for me, the
better performance. It has Schöffler (Sachs), Suthaus (Stolzing), Kunz
(Beckmesser), Dalberg (Pogner), Scheppan (Eva).
FWIW, Edward J. Smith published on LP (EJS-224, four LPs) a Met
broadcast of _Die Meistersinger_ with Schorr as Sachs, Kullman
(Stolzing), Olitzki (Beckmesser), List (Pogner), and Jessner (Eva),
cond. Erich Leinsdorf. The date was Dec.2, 1939. Schorr is quite
wonderful despite this late date in his career. The sound is acceptable,
far better than the dismal norm for EJS "Scratchofunken," as I have
called most of Smith's LPs. William Shaman et al. state, in _EJS:
Discography of the Edward J. Smith Recordings_, p.170: "Smith's source
for this performance was the official NBC acetates (seventeen 16-inch
sides, numbered ENG. 183 9-37, broadcast no. 9-349, and dated 'Dec-8-39'
in pencil. The same tape of the original acetates was used for the
Discocorp 484 reissue." There is a Library of Congress tape: 5174-18
with the complete broadcast. Perhaps Naxos has issued this one outside
the USA, or might reissue it some day...
--
E.A.C.
PK
The 1944 Böhm is fabulous, except for the tenor, which is only OK, but
it's often that way. I prefer it to the famous Abendroth set, it's
sunny, mozartian, witty, and all the singing is very good.
PK
Andy Evans
> it's often that way. I prefer it to the famous Abendroth set, it's
> sunny, mozartian, witty, and all the singing is very good.> PK>
That's exactly the impression I get from listening to excerpts. Reminds me a
bit of the later Kempe.
Incidentally,there seems to be 3 Knappertsbusch versions - can anyone
comment on these? The live 52 one sounds nicest to me from excerpts. One of
these might be the one scheduled for release in March maybe
Niklas
Andy Evans <arts.ps...@cwcom.net> skrev i
diskussionsgruppsmeddelandet:366o6.14834$Cq.313820@news2-hme0...
> > The 1944 Böhm is fabulous, except for the tenor, which is only OK, but
> > it's often that way. I prefer it to the famous Abendroth set, it's
> > sunny, mozartian, witty, and all the singing is very good.> PK>
>
> That's exactly the impression I get from listening to excerpts. Reminds me
a
> bit of the later Kempe.
Where have you heard the excerptc? It sounds interresting!
Regards
Niklas
richard loeb
PK
Decca 1950, Bayreuth 1952, and Bayreuth 1960 are those I know. My voice
goes to the studio, because of the general level of the singing (these
aren't the best years for Meistersinger at Bayreuth, if ever they
were...), even if it's not my favorite version.
PK
Andy Evans
Preiser - Adori 115DM
Arkadia 4CD - Adori 37DM 40DM Tower $60
Cantus-Lin - Zweitausendeins: 20DM (no stock) Adori 40DM (this is sold in
two seperate 2CD boxes)
Any comments on availability and sound quality for these?
--
Andy Evans: an...@artsandmedia.com
Visit our website: http://www.artsandmedia.com
PK <pro...@cybercable.fr> wrote in message
news:3AA105B0...@cybercable.fr...
Tag Gallagher
"Edward A. Cowan" wrote:
> FWIW, Edward J. Smith published on LP (EJS-224, four LPs) a Met
> broadcast of _Die Meistersinger_ with Schorr as Sachs, Kullman
> (Stolzing), Olitzki (Beckmesser), List (Pogner), and Jessner (Eva),
> cond. Erich Leinsdorf. The date was Dec.2, 1939. Schorr is quite
> wonderful despite this late date in his career. The sound is acceptable,
> far better than the dismal norm for EJS "Scratchofunken," as I have
> called most of Smith's LPs. William Shaman et al. state, in _EJS:
> Discography of the Edward J. Smith Recordings_, p.170: "Smith's source
> for this performance was the official NBC acetates (seventeen 16-inch
> sides, numbered ENG. 183 9-37, broadcast no. 9-349, and dated 'Dec-8-39'
> in pencil. The same tape of the original acetates was used for the
> Discocorp 484 reissue." There is a Library of Congress tape: 5174-18
> with the complete broadcast. Perhaps Naxos has issued this one outside
> the USA, or might reissue it some day...
The 1939 Meistersinger was issued on CD on Walhall-37.
There is a superior Met performance with a slightly younger Schorr from Feb. 22,
1936 issued on M&A-652, not for sale in the States (I found mine used in Germany
for $10) with Bodanzky conducting Schorr, Rethberg, Branzell, Maison, Habich,
List, et al.
TJNORT
>From: PK pro...@cybercable.fr
>Date: 3/3/01 6:54 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <3AA105B0...@cybercable.fr>
There is a fourth Knappertsbusch MEISTERSINGER that was recorded live in Munich
in 1955. It features Lisa della Casa, Hans Hopf , Ferdinand Frantz, Gottlob
Frick, Paul Kuen, and Heinrich Planzl in the lead roles, and was released on CD
by Orfeo in 1997. Of the four Knappertsbusch recordings the London/Decca
version from 1950/51 remains my favorite. It is perhaps the most mellow
performance of the opera that I know of (although I wouldn't describe the
1950/51 London/Decca sound as particularly mellow). The combination of
Schoeffler and Knappertsbusch seems to me particularly felicitous, although
Schoeffler is undoubtedly in fresher voice on the 1943 and 1944 performances
led by Abendroth and Boehm. I don't think that anyone has yet mentioned the
1949 Munich performance led by Jochum that has been issued on Myto. It
features Hans Hotter in the role of Sachs and otherwise is a performance of
quality (Jochum's live performances of Wagner operas seem preferable to his
studio performances. Simply put, they are more inspired and in general better
cast than his studio work. His Bayreuth performances of TRISTAN and LOHENGRIN
are worth looking for.)
G POLLIONI
my shelves. Working with the late CJ. Luten, I went through all the existing
Meistersingers, dumping several -- but was still unable to part with ten(!)
performances. These are:
2/22/36 Met. bcast. on M&A - Bodanzky:
Rethberg-Maison-Schorr-List-Branzell-Laufkoetter and about a thousand cuts, but
sung as we can only dream of it being sung now.
1943 Abendroth-Bayreuth. Adventures in Nazi-land, Vol. XVI. Everything goes
right here -- especially everything that went wrong in that effete reading
under Furtwangler the previous week. Furtwangler was afflicted with Prohaska,
Abendroth has the wonderful Schoffler plus Suthaus, Dalberg, and a whole bunch
of other folks all wonderful and idiomatic.
1937 Toscanini at Salzburg. Nissen and Noort with Reining, Alsenand Thorborg.
Along with Kubelik on Calig, the most poetic of all Meistersingers.
Kempe commercial EMI recording.
Kempe's "live" one on MYTO with Lemnitz from 1951
1967 Kubelik performance -- a co-production of the Bayerische Rundfunk and DG.
Fisch-Disch told DG he'd leave the stable if they issued it (he'd just recorded
Sachs and, on hearing this, knew his wouldn't compete)-- so they suppressed it.
Overall the best modern one.
Solti's Chicago recording -- preferable to the poorer earlier one. I happen to
like it, and so did CJ who could quibble with this and that but on the overall
thought it very creditable indeed.
Bohm on Preiser from Wien in 1944. Just about everything works well here, even
if it is not as poetic as the Maestro or the divine Kubelik. How bright the
fires burned right before they went out.
Kna at Salzburg in 1952 on M&A. Edelmann can do here what he cannot do in that
awful commercial recording. Hopf is ever an affliction, but this performance
works and everyone else sings well.
Cluytens in 1956 at Bayreuth with Hotter as Sachs on M&A. How can one live
wothout Hotter inthis part? His other recording of the part on MYTO caught him
amidst the hay-fever season and he's a mess there, but not so here.
After all of these what can anyone have to say about the work on sond
recording? The video with Mackerras conducting from Australia is very
excellent. Maybe if Levine does it -- he is the only person today with the
ability, talent and vision, except for the world's greatest conductor who never
conducts and always plays the same stuff when he does (Kleiber). Karajan is
not to my taste in this score, and was not to Luten's either.
Gene
PK
>
> 1967 Kubelik performance -- a co-production of the Bayerische Rundfunk and DG.
> Fisch-Disch told DG he'd leave the stable if they issued it (he'd just recorded
> Sachs and, on hearing this, knew his wouldn't compete)-- so they suppressed it.
> Overall the best modern one.
Are you sure about that? D F-D didn't sing the role until eight years
later in Berlin, and recorded it then with Jochum...
PK
Tony Movshon
The story as I've heard it is that F-D and Karajan *both* wanted the issue
blocked, because they both *wanted* to record it. Not because they already
had. Karajan, of course, eventually did record it, but for EMI.
--
Tony Movshon mov...@nyu.edu
William D. Kasimer
G POLLIONI <gpol...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010305141455...@ng-mj1.aol.com...
> 2/22/36 Met. bcast. on M&A - Bodanzky:
> Rethberg-Maison-Schorr-List-Branzell-Laufkoetter and about a thousand
cuts, but
> sung as we can only dream of it being sung now.
It looks great on paper, indeed, but I found that the reality was quite
disappointing. Rethberg is fine indeed, as is Maison, although I find him
inferior to Heppner. But Schorr is clearly already past his prime by 1936
(as I recall, he's actually in slightly better shape in the 1939 broadcast,
but I no longer own either to check). And List and Laufkoetter are both
pretty awful (and David and Pogner have plenty to do in this opera).
Bill
--
William D. Kasimer
wk...@mindspring.com
wkas...@quincymc.org
PK
I have a strong tendency not to believe these stories (there are many,
all of them utterly preposterous, about Schwarzkopf destroying
recordings of her "rivals", etc). If F-D or Karajan wanted the Kubelik
Meistersinger to be canned, they could have done it BEFORE it has been
recorded. How could DG hide it from them? Do it in a vault on the Cayman
Islands? And do you think DG would engage in such an expensive
(completed!) project without making sure its two brightest stars agree?
Sounds rather unbelievable to me.
PK
Tony Movshon
Your skepticism is reasonable, but I think the story is plausible with
the additional information that the thing was originally a Bavarian
Radio production, with no commercial release planned. Then DGG got in
on the act and realized what a good thing it would be for commercial
release (remember, there was no stereo studio Meistersinger in the
catalog at the time). Then the two 800-pound gorillas got in on the act.
End of story.
For what it's worth, I first heard this story the year after the
recording was made, from a reliable source who was then working with
some of the same artists for another record company.
--
Tony Movshon mov...@nyu.edu
PK
Now it sounds much more credible : if the tape was pre-existing, not a
canned DG project, the two "gorillas" had their word to say post factum.
We may not find it nice-nice, but it's no crime. Let's be happy it's
there, after all these years : so many things aren't (including
Fischer-Dieskau's Beckmesser I keep regretting, while wondering why
Sawallisch didn't use Prey in his M.; he sang it regularly in Munich,
fantastically; and why Solti didn't use Thomas Allen, same in London)
PK
REG
missing from an early 78 version of a Welitsch Salome is that Lizzie was
transporting them and sat on one of the pressing on the train (by
accident) - it never made any sense to me for a lot of obvious reasons -
she didn't need to destoy the careers of her rivals; Legge did it for her.
PK <pro...@cybercable.fr> wrote in message
news:3AA4216D...@cybercable.fr...
William D. Kasimer
>and why Solti didn't use Thomas Allen, same in London)
As I recall (and I may be wrong here), Beckmesser is a relatively recent
addition to Allen's repertoire, possibly even after plans for the Chicago
MEISTERSINGER had already been finalized. In any event, while regretting
that Allen hasn't recorded the role, I can at least be thankful that Opie is
pretty terrific.
G Riggs
on
> my shelves. Working with the late CJ. Luten, I went through all the
existing
> Meistersingers, dumping several -- but was still unable to part with
ten(!)
> performances. These are:
>
Everything goes
> right here -- especially everything that went wrong in that effete reading
> under Furtwangler the previous week. Furtwangler was afflicted with
Prohaska,
> Abendroth has the wonderful Schoffler plus Suthaus, Dalberg, and a whole
bunch
> of other folks all wonderful and idiomatic.
>
here, even
> if it is not as poetic as the Maestro or the divine Kubelik. How bright
the
> fires burned right before they went out.
>
> Kna at Salzburg in 1952 on M&A. Edelmann can do here what he cannot do in
that
> awful commercial recording. Hopf is ever an affliction, but this
performance
>
> Gene
Schoeffler is certainly wonderful on the Abendroth -- and not quite so good
on the Boehm, although still pretty good, of course. As for Kna, I do
indeed prefer the chemistry on this "live" '52 b'cast with Edelmann to that
on the first Karajan from a year before. (BTW, I believe that the '52
"live" Kna is also at Bayreuth, like the previous Karajan, not Salzburg,
isn't it?)
However, Hopf is marginally more bearable on the earlier Karajan (although
he's still no "great shakes"), and Schwarzkopf's Eva with Karajan is utterly
captivating, much as I also prize Della Casa on the "live" Kna. For these
reasons, I think I still prefer the earlier Karajan by just a bit, but it's
a close, close call.
My chief query here concerns Kna plus Schoeffler: Since I plead guilty to
admiring both as amongst the best Meistersinger conductors and Hans Sachses
on disc, I'm frankly curious as to the apparent absence on your list of the
studio-made Decca/London set (1950-51), which is, AFAIK, the only time these
two Titans ever collaborated on this opera. (The rest of the cast on this
set is not exactly ho-hum either<G>, save for Treptow's somewhat ungainly
Walther, of course.)
FWIW, I've always found the Boehm on Preiser, despite some of its virtues --
like Seefried's Eva, for instance -- not quite so essential as some of the
others you cite. It's good, of course, but not necessarily unique in any
special way, IMO.
Personally, I suppose IF I had to limit it to ten, I might put aside the
Boehm and substitute this historic Decca/London effort with Kna and
Schoeffler instead. But to each their own.
In any case, regardless of which other set one might feel obligated to
forgo, do you truly find this Kna/Schoeffler set dispensable in and of
itself? If so, why? Please, I'm honestly curious (and I'm certainly not
out to score any rhetorical points<G>).
Sincere thanks.
Respectfully,
Geoffrey Riggs
--
==============================================
OPERA ON THE INTERNET
http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/7023/opnetradio/oponet.htm
The Collector's Guide to Opera Recordings and Videos
http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/7023
The Collector's Guide to Books on Opera
http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/7023/reading.htm
==============================================
PK
>
> The story about Evil Incarnate is that the reason one of the sides is
> missing from an early 78 version of a Welitsch Salome is that Lizzie was
> transporting them and sat on one of the pressing on the train (by
> accident) - it never made any sense to me for a lot of obvious reasons -
> she didn't need to destoy the careers of her rivals; Legge did it for her.
Let's formulate it differently : Legge "could have done it", if such
were the case, so, certainly, she didn't have to.
Now, if you have any proof or example of how Legge destroyed the careers
of her rivals, it would be nice to hear it.
PK
PK
Allen was simply fabulous in this part, certainly the best in the
ordinary so-so cast of the CG production, as a singer, as well as an
actor. But, of course, if he didn't sing it until recently...
PK
PK
> In any case, regardless of which other set one might feel obligated to
> forgo, do you truly find this Kna/Schoeffler set dispensable in and of
> itself? If so, why? Please, I'm honestly curious (and I'm certainly not
> out to score any rhetorical points<G>).
>
> Sincere thanks.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Geoffrey Riggs
I wonder if the 1955 Reiner/Schöffler/Seefried was in Mr Pollioni's
private competition. It's one of the greatest ever, but quite hard to
get.
PK
REG
from someone close to Victoria de los Angeles that Vicky wanted to record a
Marriage of Figaro, her banner role, as well as some Lied and opera arias in
German; Evil got to record the Countess twice, and did more lied recordings,
and opera aria compilations, than you can skake an outstreched heil at;
Victoria got bupkis except for one opera aria recording in the early part of
her career. Lizzy recorded MANY operas she never sang, and could not have
sung (and that whole "champagne" series of operetta). both Victoria and
Maria Callas were deprived by Legge of the opportunities to record roles
central to their careers, or roles they really wanted to record (eg Louise
for Vicky, Bolena and Lady for Maria) because Legge thought they wouldn't
sell. these careers obviously were not destroyed, that's the hyperbole, but
they were rivals potentially for Lizzie's hegemony at EMI, and Legge was
extraordinarily careful to protect and promote his wife using different
standards than for the others.
Remember also Legge's need to "disclose" Evil's filling in of those Flagsted
C"s in Isolde, which was unnecessary and caused Flagstad much pain and
embarrasment, and ultimately helped lead to her removal from EMI, which at
the same time recent remasterings of Evil recordings (as reported in
Grammophone, for example) have disclosed tape editing (eg in the second
Requiem) where before the story was how remarkeable the breath control was.
On a more colloquial level, a friend was an adjudicator of a singing contest
in the days when Legge was still alive and both he and Evil were similarly
adjudicators. My friend told me that the finest singer in one of the
competitions was a Frenchman, singing chansons, but when it came time for
the deliberations, Legge said expressly, "We are not going to let that
little frog (not sure if that's the term he used) singing French win, and
insisted on the award to a german.
this is a part of the iceberg, not all exactly on point to my comment, but
you need only look at the EMI catelogue through Legge's tenure to see who
were favored as singers, and who were disfavored, all in comparison to his
wife.
PK <pro...@cybercable.fr> wrote in message
news:3AA498AE...@cybercable.fr...
PK
First, to call a great artist "Evil" seems to me a little excessive. But
finally, it's your business. As for the bottom line, I think this is an
incredible exaggeration.
The Countess was also Schwarzkopf's "banner" role, and certainly she was
more famous (I don't say : better) in it than Victoria; she has recorded
it twice (just as Lisa della Casa), once in mono, once in stereo; in
between, EMI recorded it with Sena Jurinac (who has done it twice as
well). Victoria recorded Butterfly twice, Faust twice, La Vida breve
twice, Pelléas, Cavalleria, Werther, Schicchi, Suor Angelica, Boheme,
Carmen, Manon, Barbiere, Boccanegra, none of these Schwarzkopf has
recorded, even if she has sung some. Which roles "central to Victoria's
career" she did NOT record? I must be forgetting something. I would love
to have her Desdemona, to be sure, and more, but there are numerous and
similar cases in the careers of other singers (Scotto/Bergonzi Elisir,
an obvious choice nobody did), without having anything to do with some
"evil scheming".
Don't tell us Schwarzkopf "couldn't" sing operetta; there are people who
like her apparently just as much as you do, and pretend this is all she
should have been singing. Tell me about the "many" operas she recorded
which she couldn't or didn't sing (Callas recorded Mimi she never sung,
and Butterfly, she sang in one single production); but make it "many",
otherwise it wouldn't be credible. As for the parts she "could but
didn't", there are Agathe, Elsa, Elisabeth, she left - to destroy her
career too? - to Grümmer, recording them only in excerpts.
As for Callas, as you rightly say, but without drawing any conclusions
from it, Legge didn't record her "marginal" roles because he didn't
believe in their commercial appeal, not because he wanted to impeach her
career to promote Schwarzkopf; this is pure nonsense, and when you look
at the discographies, which you advise us to do, it's so obvious. Callas
was making up to five complete sets a year, plus recitals, during a very
short career : could you squeeze some more in? Did Schwarzkopf record
Macbeth or Bolena? Of course, I'd rather have them, than Nedda, but this
is miscalculation, not evil. Legge didn't believe in the Decca Ring
either : what had Schwarzkopf to do with it? He had his ideas, some
good, some bad. Same goes for Louise of which the first, commercial
recording came ten years after Legge left EMI, and not at EMI.
Flagstad left EMI not because of any "disclosure", but because she was
sixty years old. And Legge DID record her Isolde, something no one else
did.
I'm sorry, but this isn't very serious. As for the anecdotes, I have
heard more, all of them "gore".
PK
REG
inquiry, but you were trying to bait, and I was wrong. I'll let anyone who
wants to read your post in response to mine, and see how off-points your
rejoinders are but a couple of real howlers from you bear mention:
1 - You think calling a "great artist" who joined the Nazis, and was an
avid antisemite (and still may be) Evil Incarnate is "a little excessive" -
maybe I should just call her "Naughty Girl"
2 - You ask which roles Vicky sang and didn't record, and answer your own
question ; you must have good reasons for not listening to yourself.
Besides Desdemona, Vicky sang Ariadne at Scala; Evil didn't ever sing the
role, but of course recorded it. Donna Anna was also a central Vicky role,
and she didn't even get to record the arias; Evil recorded an album of
Mozart arias she would never sing on stage (Just to correct your fractured
discography, Vicky recorded Barber twice as well, I prefer the first). Vicky
also sang Elsa (at the MET, once performance) and Elizabeth at Bayreuth -
you think there wasn't an album of German arias waiting to be made by Vicky?
This was all Legge's snobbism and protecting of his wife. You list some of
the roles Vicky recored and then say that Evil had sung "some". Which ones
(some means more than one) - the only one I know of is a couple of Behemes
in London in English in Evil's initial season. Do you have some special
knowledge of any Schwartkopf Carmens or Cavallerias?
3 - I didn't say Evil couldn't sing operetta, as you suggest I do, but that
she didn't and yet monopolized that series. Did you ever hear of Evil
singing Liu on stage any more than Ariadne? There's no objection to an
artist recording roles she didn't sing on stage; the point is that the
Nazi's career was favored in this respect by Legge in a way that many other
artists were not.
4 - I never said that the Callas roles which she didn't record were
"marginal"; you said I did. On the contrart, Maria sang Bolena for two
seasoms at Scala, and even at the time the production was recognized as
having been the fulcrum for the bel canto revival.
5- What Legge's belief in the Decca ring had to do with disclosing that
Evil sang in some notes for Flagstad is beyond me, and I suspect most of us.
Your idea that Flagstad left EMI because she was 60 is risible. You think
they had a mandatory retirement policy there? She went over to Decca and
kept recording.
All that said, I don't by any means hate all of Evil's performances, have
many of them on disk, treasure the Bach Cantata 51, some of the early opera
and lied (up till about '60) and the second 4 last songs and Mozart arias
with szell even after that. this isn't about Evil's singing, it's about what
she, and more to the point legge, did to people who they thought would get
in the way, or not uphold German kunst.
PK <pro...@cybercable.fr> wrote in message
news:3AA4BE19...@cybercable.fr...
PK
>
> I see now I was mistaken - I thought you were asking in the spirit of
> inquiry, but you were trying to bait, and I was wrong.
To bait? I didn't bring the subject up; you did. I just wanted to know
the reason of your rather extreme opinion. Isn't that the very "spirit
of inquiry" you mention? Or should I, after you said your piece, shut up
and not answer? That would be too comfortable, sorry.
(snip]
> 1 - You think calling a "great artist" who joined the Nazis, and was an
> avid antisemite (and still may be) Evil Incarnate is "a little excessive" -
> maybe I should just call her "Naughty Girl"
Elisabeth Schwarzkopf was a great artist; it has nothing to do with her
politcal activities or "convictions". There were many great artists who
joined the Nazis. There were many great artists who were avid
antisemites (Dostoyevsky, for one). There were many great artists who
did despicable things, with Nazis, communists, and in many other, awful
circumstances. It doesn't change anything in their artistic output. You
may say they were great artists "in spite" of being scoundrels, or the
other way round, but this is, unfortunately how art works : nothing to
do with morals. BTW, you have a very modest conception of "Evil
incarnate"; I hope, for your own sake, you never meet a real one.
> 2 - You ask which roles Vicky sang and didn't record, and answer your own
> question ; you must have good reasons for not listening to yourself.
> Besides Desdemona, Vicky sang Ariadne at Scala; Evil didn't ever sing the
> role, but of course recorded it.
Schwarzkopf sang Mélisande at La Scala; Victoria recorded it. Anything
else? Schwarzkopf is a native German, Victoria isn't. Had I been I
Legge, I would have made the same choice. Was Ariadne "central" to
Victoria's career? Schwarzkopf's Ariadne is wonderful. As for Desdemona,
EMI didn't record an Otello up to Barbirolli (1969).
> Donna Anna was also a central Vicky role,
> and she didn't even get to record the arias
Too bad, I regret it. I even more regret she didn't sing Zerlina, where
she would have been gorgeous. Many people didn't record things they
should have.
> Evil recorded an album of
> Mozart arias she would never sing on stage
So did Callas (not complete Mozart, in case you would feel like
correcting it).
> (Just to correct your fractured
> discography, Vicky recorded Barber twice as well, I prefer the first).
Right. I didn't pretend my discography from memory was complete. It only
proves my point even further.
> Vicky
> also sang Elsa (at the MET, once performance) and Elizabeth at Bayreuth -
> you think there wasn't an album of German arias waiting to be made by Vicky?
Same thing : she wasn't a German speaking singer; it didn't prevent
Legge to give her German songs recitals, and to engage her to sing in
German at the Gerald Moore Farewell. But he wanted her to sing what she
was a "natural" in.
> This was all Legge's snobbism and protecting of his wife.
Nonsense, these were Legge's artistic choices, and Schwarzkopf didn't
need to be "protected".
> You list some of
> the roles Vicky recored and then say that Evil had sung "some". Which ones
> (some means more than one) - the only one I know of is a couple of Behemes
> in London in English in Evil's initial season. Do you have some special
> knowledge of any Schwartkopf Carmens or Cavallerias?
I said "some". Among the parts Victoria recorded, she sang : Rosina,
Nedda, Mimi, Traviata, Manon, Marguerite; among those she sang, and
neither of them recorded were also Elisabeth, and Elsa. Is that "more
than one"? Because among "many central roles" in Victoria's career,
Schwarzkopf prevented her from recording, you quoted... Ariadne.
> 3 - I didn't say Evil couldn't sing operetta, as you suggest I do, but that
> she didn't and yet monopolized that series.
Monopolized - "against" whom? Los Angeles, Callas?
> Did you ever hear of Evil
> singing Liu on stage any more than Ariadne?
Theater an der Wien, 1949, with Cebotari and Böhm. Which doesn't mean
Legge was right in giving it to her; Victoria would have been much
better, just as probably she would have been a better Adalgisa than
Christa Ludwig. The history of opera on records teems with blatant,
casting errors.
> There's no objection to an
> artist recording roles she didn't sing on stage; the point is that the
> Nazi's career was favored in this respect by Legge in a way that many other
> artists were not.
Nonsense, as my Callas examples prove.
> 4 - I never said that the Callas roles which she didn't record were
> "marginal"; you said I did. On the contrart, Maria sang Bolena for two
> seasoms at Scala, and even at the time the production was recognized as
> having been the fulcrum for the bel canto revival.
I know you didn't say it; I said it, meaning that they were still
"marginal" in the current, operatic repertory at the time is concerned.
> 5- What Legge's belief in the Decca ring had to do with disclosing that
> Evil sang in some notes for Flagstad is beyond me, and I suspect most of us.
> Your idea that Flagstad left EMI because she was 60 is risible. You think
> they had a mandatory retirement policy there? She went over to Decca and
> kept recording.
I mentioned the Ring question not to prove anything about Flagstad, but
to prove Legge did or did not believe in some things or others, right or
wrong, and made his choices according to that, NOT according to some
evil plan which has never existed.
> All that said, I don't by any means hate all of Evil's performances, have
> many of them on disk, treasure the Bach Cantata 51
I find it a complete failure.
> some of the early opera
> and lied (up till about '60) and the second 4 last songs and Mozart arias
> with szell even after that. this isn't about Evil's singing, it's about what
> she, and more to the point legge, did to people who they thought would get
> in the way, or not uphold German kunst.
They did nothing of the kind. That is the point, indeed, and you're
very, very far from having proven the opposite.
PK
REG
zones, given how quickly you respond to me, or you're as irregular a sleeper
as I am. There's not a lot of sense continuing this; we'll continue to
correct each other's small errors and disagree on matters which are opinion.
I do want to say, because it goes to my point, that Vicky was tremendously
admired in german lied in the german speaking countries, particularly
Brahms. You say below (I've cut it and repasted it up here) that " it didn't
prevent
> Legge to give her German songs recitals, and to engage her to sing in
> German at the Gerald Moore Farewell. But he wanted her to sing what she
> was a "natural" in. "
But PK, I think I'm correct that Vicky NEVER got a song recital album in
german at all. Even callas got to scream her way through a german aria album
(I'm sure I'm going to get it from someone who loves the von Weber), but
Vicky had NOTHIING, and I know from her directly she wanted something. I
doubt that there are 5 songs in german that Vicky did, and Gerald Moore
tells in one of his autobiographies that it was Viky who insisted on the
Brahms, not Legge. (She did record a wonderful K505 with Moore that was only
released recently, had been withheld at her or Moore's request). In
fairness to you, the Desdemona being cancelled was not Legge's issue; it was
supposed to be Vicky but she had one of her periodic miscarriages and Leonie
was substituted...Bjorling had promised her his Otello but died ( you know
She wanted him for the Manon, but he demurred because he felt his french
wasn't good enough - how many artists would do that today?) We're not going
to convince each other, I'd prefer to agree to disagree since there's a lot
we agree about here... I am very curious why you don't like E.I.'s (does
that help? read, if you haven't, The Twisted Muse by Kater - I know E..I is
something of an exaggeration, but it's attempt, adapted from someone else,
do undo some of the hagiography I see surrounding her) Bach 51? Do you feel
that way about the Esultate Jubilate also? I literally wore out my first
recording on Seraphim of those two pieces.
P.S. What do you think or her recording of the Horst Weissel song on DG?
(Just kidding, almost)
PK <pro...@cybercable.fr> wrote in message
news:3AA4D46E...@cybercable.fr...
Andy Evans
virtues -- like Seefried's Eva, for instance -- not quite so essential as
some of the others you cite. It's good, of course, but not necessarily
unique in any
special way, IMO.>
I just listened to this and the 51 Karajan, and there are inevitably things
to be said for both. I find the Karajan starts rather bumpily but ends
gloriously, but Seider for Bohm has some of the essential heroic ring to him
and is closer to passing the 'Nancy Test' (see r.m.o thread) than Hopf. I'd
take Schoeffler as Sachs too - more natural authority for somebody who is
supposed to be loved and respected by a whole town (no small feat), though
Edelman sings well. (On the question of Sachs being a 'crowd pleasing man'
DFD is probably the worst, coming across as a real insecure tortured
intellectual). I think that both recordings have a certain 'magic' -
hard to explain except that when it's not there the general vibe is flatter.
I could live with either Eva.
Actually on the point of 'living with an opera singer', I wondered to what
extent singers like Schwarzkopf married for love and to what extent for
career. Can anyone with inside information hazard a guess (using whichever
examples you like)? Divas did have a habit of landing big fish - was it love
or was it ........?
PK
>
> We are far apart on a lot of this - and we're either also far apart in time
> zones, given how quickly you respond to me, or you're as irregular a sleeper
> as I am.
I'm in Paris.
> There's not a lot of sense continuing this; we'll continue to
> correct each other's small errors and disagree on matters which are opinion.
Facts are not opinions. Opinions should be based on facts, at least I
think so.
> I do want to say, because it goes to my point, that Vicky was tremendously
> admired in german lied in the german speaking countries, particularly
> Brahms. You say below (I've cut it and repasted it up here) that " it didn't
> prevent
> > Legge to give her German songs recitals, and to engage her to sing in
> > German at the Gerald Moore Farewell. But he wanted her to sing what she
> > was a "natural" in. "
>
> But PK, I think I'm correct that Vicky NEVER got a song recital album in
> german at all.
I don't have Los Angeles' complete discography at hand, but I have her
recordings of Schubert, Schumann, Brahms, Wagner; all of them have been
reissued on EMI or Testament.
> Even callas got to scream her way through a german aria album
> (I'm sure I'm going to get it from someone who loves the von Weber)
It's not a German aria album, unless you consider Mozart Italian arias
as German.
> but
> Vicky had NOTHIING, and I know from her directly she wanted something. I
> doubt that there are 5 songs in german that Vicky did
All in all, I have 3 Schumann, 4 Brahms, 4 Schubert, not including
German duets with Fischer-Dieskau and Gerald Moore's Farewell, Moore
engaged her for, and gave her Brahms and Mendelssohn.
, and Gerald Moore
> tells in one of his autobiographies that it was Viky who insisted on the
> Brahms, not Legge. (She did record a wonderful K505 with Moore that was only
> released recently, had been withheld at her or Moore's request).
Recently on CD; it has been issued before (1980 or something) on an LP.
> In fairness to you, the Desdemona being cancelled was not Legge's issue; it was
> supposed to be Vicky but she had one of her periodic miscarriages and Leonie
> was substituted...Bjorling had promised her his Otello but died
That was RCA, not EMI, therefore not Legge.
> ( you know
> She wanted him for the Manon, but he demurred because he felt his french
> wasn't good enough - how many artists would do that today?) We're not going
> to convince each other, I'd prefer to agree to disagree since there's a lot
> we agree about here...
If you don't accept obvious facts, I'm not ready to convince you, that's
sure. But I have heard identical stories about Schwarzkopf ruining
Grümmer's career, Seefried's career etc. None of these resists a closer
scrutiny.
> I am very curious why you don't like E.I.'s (does
> that help? read, if you haven't, The Twisted Muse by Kater - I know E..I is
> something of an exaggeration, but it's attempt, adapted from someone else,
> do undo some of the hagiography I see surrounding her) Bach 51? Do you feel
> that way about the Esultate Jubilate also? I literally wore out my first
> recording on Seraphim of those two pieces.
I owned that one, and as much as I love Exsultate, I find her
articulation in 51 all wrong (she's trying to do it "détaché",
trumpet-like, and to my ears, it doesn't work). I find it ugly.
PK
PK
>
> Actually on the point of 'living with an opera singer', I wondered to what
> extent singers like Schwarzkopf married for love and to what extent for
> career. Can anyone with inside information hazard a guess (using whichever
> examples you like)? Divas did have a habit of landing big fish - was it love
> or was it ........?
How on earth can you hope to know? Would she tell us "I didn't love
him"?
PK
G Riggs
It seems to me I've heard about that one.......maybe once or twice, if that!
Very elusive. But I've always been intrigued by it. Glad to hear it being
described in such glowing terms.
Please, can you tell us who the tenor singing Walther is and where the
performance took place (Met, Salzburg, Bayreuth, etc.?)? (Is it --
possibly -- available on some limited-availability CD label?)
Sincere thanks,
Tony Movshon
> ... which roles Vicky sang ... Evil didn't ever sing the ...
> On the contrart, Maria sang Bolena ...
We do envy you your first-name acquaintance with all these
estimable ladies, but it might be more courteous, as well as
more comprehensible to younger readers who did not have your
good fortune, to refer to them by their real names.
--
Tony Movshon mov...@nyu.edu
Dave Nee/Other Change of Hobbit
> Which roles "central to Victoria's
> career" she did NOT record? I must be forgetting something. I would love
> to have her Desdemona, to be sure, and more,
The other role that comes immediately to mind is Elisabeth from Tannhauser.
We have both in broadcasts, and perhaps the frisson of live performance
offsets the absence of studio recordings. However, neither did Schwarzkopf
record these two parts . . .
PK
> > I wonder if the 1955 Reiner/Schöffler/Seefried was in Mr Pollioni's
> > private competition. It's one of the greatest ever, but quite hard to
> > get.
> >
> > PK
>
> It seems to me I've heard about that one.......maybe once or twice, if that!
> Very elusive. But I've always been intrigued by it. Glad to hear it being
> described in such glowing terms.
Don't forget, though, that I'm a Reiner sicko, so... I have kept a
British review from 1955 which says Reiner doesn't have a clue, and that
he ruined the evening. I would like to visit such ruins every day. To
me, it's genius all over the place.
> Please, can you tell us who the tenor singing Walther is and where the
> performance took place (Met, Salzburg, Bayreuth, etc.?)? (Is it --
> possibly -- available on some limited-availability CD label?)
The only incarnation I have ever seen, and instantly spend my monthly
wages on it, was Melodram CDM 47083. Vienna Opera, 14 november 1955,
Schöffler, Seefried, Beirer (!), Kunz, Dickie, Frick, Rosette Anday,
Hans Braun (Kothner), Frederick Guthrie (Nighwatchman). Gut Lack.
PK
PK
And Los Angeles did record Dich teure Halle, just as Schwarzkopf did. At
more or less that time, Grümmer was recording the part in the only
Tannhäuser EMI produced before Popp/Haitink. So now, I suppose, it
should be : the "Two Elisabeths" agains poor "Vicky". Unfortunately, no
way, since Grümmer is another singer that got her career "destroyed" by
Schwarzkopf... In fact, her real name is Elisabeth A. Schwarzkopf, A.
standing for "Attila".
PK
Dave Nee/Other Change of Hobbit
And if she didn't love him, why would she -- after his death -- continue to
be such a staunch defender of his reputation and Legge-acy?
Dave Nee/Other Change of Hobbit
news:3AA52626...@nyu.edu...
Thank you. I had considered writing something about how _gentlemen_ usually
do not refer to ladies by coy nicknames unless they are attempting to flaunt
a familiarity that most would consider discourteous if not downright
demeaning, but then I remembered that there are a lot of _gentlemen_ here
who might be flaunting a similar familiarity with "Fluffy".
Perhaps we should also refer to George Szell as "Pussi" or "Pussi Teddybear"
(see p.241, Rosenberg, "The Cleveland Orchestra Story")?
Dave Nee/Other Change of Hobbit
news:9835ff$t...@dispatch.concentric.net...
> performance took place (Met, Salzburg, Bayreuth, etc.?)? (Is it --
> possibly -- available on some limited-availability CD label?)
According to MetManiac's list of Met broadcast recordings at
http://www.metmaniac.com/completelist.html
the date and cast of Reiner's Met Meistersinger was:
January 10, 1953
DIE MEISTERSINGER
SCHOEFFLER, HOPF, DE LOS ANGELES, GLAZ, HOLM, PECHNER, GREINDL /REINER
So once again (Karajan 51, Kna 53, Kna 55), it's Hans Hopf as Walther . . .
Simon Roberts
: Perhaps we should also refer to George Szell as "Pussi" or "Pussi Teddybear"
: (see p.241, Rosenberg, "The Cleveland Orchestra Story")?
Excellent suggestion.
Simon
Tony Movshon
> > > ... which roles Vicky sang ... Evil didn't ever sing the ...
> > > On the contrart, Maria sang Bolena ...
> >
> > We do envy you your first-name acquaintance with all these
> > estimable ladies, but it might be more courteous, as well as
> > more comprehensible to younger readers who did not have your
> > good fortune, to refer to them by their real names.
>
> Thank you. I had considered writing something about how _gentlemen_ usually
> do not refer to ladies by coy nicknames unless they are attempting to flaunt
> a familiarity that most would consider discourteous if not downright
> demeaning, but then I remembered that there are a lot of _gentlemen_ here
> who might be flaunting a similar familiarity with "Fluffy".
Fluffy was Herbert von Karajan's proper name.
> Perhaps we should also refer to George Szell as "Pussi" or "Pussi Teddybear"
> (see p.241, Rosenberg, "The Cleveland Orchestra Story")?
Excellent suggestion.
--
Tony Movshon mov...@nyu.edu
samir golescu
"Tony Movshon" <mov...@nyu.edu> wrote in message
> REG wrote:
> > ... which roles Vicky sang ... Evil didn't ever sing the ...
> > On the contrary, Maria sang Bolena ...
>
> We do envy you your first-name acquaintance with all these
> estimable ladies, but it might be more courteous, as well as
> more comprehensible to younger readers who did not have your
> good fortune, to refer to them by their real names.
Now don't be such a meany, Dr. Movshon. There is no greater compliment
for a great artist than being called on his/her first name only:
"Amadeus [for Sigurd]", "Elvis [for you know who]", "Andrys", "Kenbie",
"Eunice", "Nic" [the last four for part of the many Rubinstein brothers]
etc.
I have to admit that I surrendered myself to the diminution trend that
inexorably seems to mark rmcr's paths. I guess three years ago I'd have
shuddered in front of such an avalanche of Furtys, Rachs, Fluffys,
Knappies, Toscas [not the opera], Mengys, etc.... now I like them, you
know, it makes Messers. Roberts, Movshon, Taboada, Tooter, Silverstein,
not to mention -- out of modesty -- His Lordship Samir Golescu seem so
much more important than some mere artists....
However, in the day in which I shall read here about Harny, Herrewy,
Mackery, and, the prettiest, Goebelseh, I shall forward to the Committee
my demise -- or resignation, or whatever is the proper damn English word!
samir golescu
Dr. Tony Movshon wrote:
> > Perhaps we should also refer to George Szell as "Pussi" or "Pussi Teddybear"
> > (see p.241, Rosenberg, "The Cleveland Orchestra Story")?
>
> Excellent suggestion.
On the other hand--and at the other end of the spectrum--Mr. Simon
Roberts wrote:
> : Perhaps we should also refer to George Szell as "Pussi" or "Pussi
> : Teddybear" (see p.241, Rosenberg, "The Cleveland Orchestra Story")?
> Excellent suggestion.
...which demonstrates the extraordinarily broad range of humor,
information, and opinion rmcr has to offer to the reader who has nothing
better to do with his time.
regards,
SG
Simon Roberts
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2-upenn1.3]
samir golescu (gol...@students.uiuc.edu) wrote:
: Now don't be such a meany, Dr. Movshon. There is no greater compliment
: for a great artist than being called on his/her first name only:
: "Amadeus [for Sigurd]", "Elvis [for you know who]", "Andrys", "Kenbie",
: "Eunice", "Nic" [the last four for part of the many Rubinstein brothers]
: etc.
Not to mention Samir....
: I have to admit that I surrendered myself to the diminution trend that
: inexorably seems to mark rmcr's paths. I guess three years ago I'd have
: shuddered in front of such an avalanche of Furtys, Rachs, Fluffys,
: Knappies,
In the U.S. that should properly be "Diapers".
Toscas [not the opera], Mengys, etc.... now I like them, you
: know, it makes Messers. Roberts, Movshon, Taboada, Tooter, Silverstein,
: not to mention -- out of modesty -- His Lordship Samir Golescu seem so
: much more important than some mere artists....
: However, in the day in which I shall read here about Harny, Herrewy,
: Mackery, and, the prettiest, Goebelseh, I shall forward to the Committee
: my demise -- or resignation, or whatever is the proper damn English word!
First the latter, then the former, if you're not careful.
Simon
PK
>
It's a different one, as previously stated. BTW, if any of you is even
remotely considering buyin' the Met Reiner 1952 (Schöffler, Wegner,
Hopf! Holm, Janssen) from Arlecchino, he should know it's in B flat
major. They f... up the transfer, so you need a machine with variable
pitch to put it right. I don't have one.
PK
samir golescu
On Tue, 6 Mar 2001, PK wrote:
> It's a different one, as previously stated. BTW, if any of you is even
> remotely considering buyin' the Met Reiner 1952 (Schöffler, Wegner,
> Hopf! Holm, Janssen) from Arlecchino, he should know it's in B flat
> major. They f... up the transfer
May it be that some HIPsters have been involved with that label?...
Andy Evans
> him"?
since there are people who were on "Vicky" terms with VdeLA, inside
information may not be too much to ask for, though clearly from someone who
called her "Lizzie" (substitute other terms of endearment) rather than
Evil.......
Andy Evans
show you a girl called Sam"?
--
Andy Evans: an...@artsandmedia.com
Visit our website: http://www.artsandmedia.com
Tag Gallagher
PK
Maybe, you know, she liked to be called "evil"...
PK
Andy Evans
You're just tantalising us now.......... what else do you know?
Stephen W. Worth
<Rich...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> 1 - You think calling a "great artist" who joined the Nazis, and was an
> avid antisemite (and still may be) Evil Incarnate is "a little excessive" -
> maybe I should just call her "Naughty Girl"
Whether or not someone is a mean spirited jerk is completely
irrelevant to whether they are a great artist or not. There
are plenty of great artists who do reprehensible things.
See ya
Steve
--
Visit Spumco's Wonderful World of Cartoons:
http://www.spumco.com alt.animation.spumco
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Learn about animation art (without going BROKE!)
Vintage Ink & Paint http://www.vintageip.com
PK
>
> > Maybe, you know, she liked to be called "evil"... > PK
>
> You're just tantalising us now.......... what else do you know?
Oh, I don't know anything... not really... it's just this powerful
imagination of mine.
PK
Dave Nee/Other Change of Hobbit
news:OU4p6.3289$lj.3...@typhoon.nyc.rr.com...
> But PK, I think I'm correct that Vicky NEVER got a song recital album in
> german at all.
SXLP 30147, released July 1972, a recital featuring Schubert and Brahms
> In
> fairness to you, the Desdemona being cancelled was not Legge's issue; it
was
> supposed to be Vicky but she had one of her periodic miscarriages and
Leonie
> was substituted...Bjorling had promised her his Otello but died
Are you aware that you are writing about the same doomed recording project?
Bjoerling and de los Angeles were slated to record Otello with Fritz Reiner,
but in the end substitutions lead to recording made by
Vickers/Rysanek/Serafin.
Your anti-Legge rant sent me to an enjoyable revisiting of de los Angeles
biography by Peter Roberts. There is one Big Hole in your argument: de los
Angeles' producer at EMI was David Bicknell, not Legge who would have had no
say in her recorded repertoire. Bicknell signed de los Angeles to an HMV
contract in 1948. Roberts quotes de los Angeles on p.65:
"I would have been lost without his guidance. I was a complete newcomer and
he seemed to know everyone and everything and had been with H.M.V. since the
'twenties. It was a great stroke of luck for me."
She repeats and expands upon that information on p.158 while talking about
her recording career.
An interesting side note, on p.161 of Roberts' biography, we get a glimpse
of the end of the Golden Age of recording at EMI from de los Angeles:
"When David Bicknell retired at the beginning of the 'seventies, all I heard
was money, money, money. You weren't treated like an artist any more, just
one cog among many in a money-machine. Everything good cost too much. You
couldn't do this and you couldn't do that. The budget wouldn't stand for it.
It's impossible to do good work like that."
Legge is never even mentioned. And given that she was not Legge's artist, it
comes as no surprise that de los Angeles is not mentioned at all in Sanders'
Walter Legge: Words and Music or that the only references to de los Angeles
in Schwarzkopf's memoir On and Off the Record relate either to the Gerald
Moore Farewell or projects made or planned after Legge left EMI.
Legge, quoted in a letter on p. 83 of the latter volume:
"I am delighted that Victoria's and Maria's sales are keeping up. Both they
and Elisabeth are suffering from EMI's late entry into stereo. Deccas were
wise: they recorded in stereo fro years before the system became a
commercial fact. EMI failed to learn from the lesson they had already ahd by
their long wait before going into LP."
de los Angeles, on p.161 of Roberts:
"The introduction of stereo meant that I was asked to repeat the roles that
I had done before in mono -- a new Manon for example. I even started to
prepare a second Boheme. But I refused finally because I did not thin that I
could do them so well. It was not that I thought what I had done was so
wonderful -- only that I could not have done them any better."
PK
>
> news:OU4p6.3289$lj.3...@typhoon.nyc.rr.com...
> > But PK, I think I'm correct that Vicky NEVER got a song recital album in
> > german at all.
>
> SXLP 30147, released July 1972, a recital featuring Schubert and Brahms
Thank you.
> > In
> > fairness to you, the Desdemona being cancelled was not Legge's issue; it
> was
> > supposed to be Vicky but she had one of her periodic miscarriages and
> Leonie
> > was substituted...Bjorling had promised her his Otello but died
>
> Are you aware that you are writing about the same doomed recording project?
> Bjoerling and de los Angeles were slated to record Otello with Fritz Reiner,
> but in the end substitutions lead to recording made by
> Vickers/Rysanek/Serafin.
An RCA project anyway, as I said before.
> An interesting side note, on p.161 of Roberts' biography, we get a glimpse
> of the end of the Golden Age of recording at EMI from de los Angeles:
>
> "When David Bicknell retired at the beginning of the 'seventies, all I heard
> was money, money, money. You weren't treated like an artist any more, just
> one cog among many in a money-machine. Everything good cost too much. You
> couldn't do this and you couldn't do that. The budget wouldn't stand for it.
> It's impossible to do good work like that."
And Legge had left several years ago by then.
PK
REG
penetrate." You obviously don't see how small minded some of your comments
are, and you're not going to... for example, I call colloquially callas'
"german opera aria album" (and which any opera fan will be able to identify
by that title, AND which contains music by Beethoven, Mozart and Weber) to
illustrate the range of german/austrian composers which callas recorded and
Vicky did not - your comment is irrelevant to the point of the posting. The
game you would like to play, now obvious to me is, "I am PK, convince
me...." It's not an interesting game to me, and I don't give a hang whether
you're convinced or not. While you announce that "Facts are not opinions.
Opinions should be based on facts, at least I think so." and then go on
later to say that the reason you don't like Evil Incarnate's Bach Cantata 51
is that "she's trying to do it detache, trumpet like", it's again laughable.
Both in published interviews, and in a live interview which I sat in on,
Evil singled out the 51 as about her finest recording, precisely because
there is, in her view, virtually no aspiration of the running passages (and
in that she is, by and large, correct.) She made the same point at her
master classes here at Julliard with Legge, which were largely exercises in
sado-masochism. For both of them, aspiration was almost the Ultimate Evil,
and to suggest anything detache about that perrformance says to me that you
can not tell the difference between facts and opinions. You are of course
entitled not to like the performance for a hundred reasons, but that would
be an opinion...the legato binding of the notes is a fact.
PK <pro...@cybercable.fr> wrote in message
news:3AA4EAA6...@cybercable.fr...
> REG wrote:
> >
> > We are far apart on a lot of this - and we're either also far apart in
time
> > zones, given how quickly you respond to me, or you're as irregular a
sleeper
> > as I am.
>
> I'm in Paris.
>
> > There's not a lot of sense continuing this; we'll continue to
> > correct each other's small errors and disagree on matters which are
opinion.
>
> Facts are not opinions. Opinions should be based on facts, at least I
> think so.
>
> > I do want to say, because it goes to my point, that Vicky was
tremendously
> > admired in german lied in the german speaking countries, particularly
> > Brahms. You say below (I've cut it and repasted it up here) that " it
didn't
> > prevent
> > > Legge to give her German songs recitals, and to engage her to sing in
> > > German at the Gerald Moore Farewell. But he wanted her to sing what
she
> > > was a "natural" in. "
> >
> > But PK, I think I'm correct that Vicky NEVER got a song recital album in
> > german at all.
>
> I don't have Los Angeles' complete discography at hand, but I have her
> recordings of Schubert, Schumann, Brahms, Wagner; all of them have been
> reissued on EMI or Testament.
>
> > Even callas got to scream her way through a german aria album
> > (I'm sure I'm going to get it from someone who loves the von Weber)
>
> It's not a German aria album, unless you consider Mozart Italian arias
> as German.
>
> > but
> > Vicky had NOTHIING, and I know from her directly she wanted something. I
> > doubt that there are 5 songs in german that Vicky did
>
> All in all, I have 3 Schumann, 4 Brahms, 4 Schubert, not including
> German duets with Fischer-Dieskau and Gerald Moore's Farewell, Moore
> engaged her for, and gave her Brahms and Mendelssohn.
>
> , and Gerald Moore
> > tells in one of his autobiographies that it was Viky who insisted on the
> > Brahms, not Legge. (She did record a wonderful K505 with Moore that was
only
> > released recently, had been withheld at her or Moore's request).
>
> Recently on CD; it has been issued before (1980 or something) on an LP.
>
> > In fairness to you, the Desdemona being cancelled was not Legge's issue;
it was
> > supposed to be Vicky but she had one of her periodic miscarriages and
Leonie
> > was substituted...Bjorling had promised her his Otello but died
>
> That was RCA, not EMI, therefore not Legge.
>
> > ( you know
> > She wanted him for the Manon, but he demurred because he felt his french
> > wasn't good enough - how many artists would do that today?) We're not
going
> > to convince each other, I'd prefer to agree to disagree since there's a
lot
> > we agree about here...
>
> If you don't accept obvious facts, I'm not ready to convince you, that's
> sure. But I have heard identical stories about Schwarzkopf ruining
> Grümmer's career, Seefried's career etc. None of these resists a closer
> scrutiny.
>
> > I am very curious why you don't like E.I.'s (does
> > that help? read, if you haven't, The Twisted Muse by Kater - I know E..I
is
> > something of an exaggeration, but it's attempt, adapted from someone
else,
> > do undo some of the hagiography I see surrounding her) Bach 51? Do you
feel
> > that way about the Esultate Jubilate also? I literally wore out my first
> > recording on Seraphim of those two pieces.
>
> I owned that one, and as much as I love Exsultate, I find her
> articulation in 51 all wrong (she's trying to do it "détaché",
> trumpet-like, and to my ears, it doesn't work). I find it ugly.
>
> PK
Johannes95
>From: PK pro...@cybercable.fr
>Date: 3/6/01 2:24 PM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <3AA5398A...@cybercable.fr>
The Reiner is ruined by Beirer: a Meistersinger where a Walther cracks (as I
recall) during the prize song is fatally flawed. Schoeffler and Seefried are
much better in the Abendroth and Bohm performances, and Reiner's conducting,
though benefiting from the beautiful playing of the Vienna orchestra, doesn't
seem as inspired as Abendroth, to name one (IMHO).
Jon
REG
with the confusion of not knowing which other Vicky one could be talking
about, which other Maria (ewing, perhaps?). Victoria de los Angeles is not
of course her real name anyway. That is the way people talk about opera
singers...we had a whole series of posts about de los Angeles vrs. los
Angeles, and I think generally people refer to her as Vicky or Vicky D. (it
sounds too much like someone from a girl group to me, and I wouldn't want
someone so much younger to get confused). I could have said "callas" - as I
did in several poits in the posting. And now you know Schwatzkopf, dedicated
Nazi.news:3AA52626...@nyu.edu...
REG
performing artist's personal life and their ability to perform in a
meaningful way...however, being an ardent Nazi is to me deserves something
more than being called "a mean spirited jerk". Legge, you should know, was
also spoken of as being a real anti-semite, although he was born in Finchley
(?) and there was some speculation that he had a Jewish grandparent. They
were not a fun couple, and though it may seem unusually judgmental to a lot
of the "younger" people on the board, the general reputation of both of them
was pretty consistent in the business (here I am not talking aobut Legge's
often excellent abilities as a producer, or Evil's career before about '60).
I can not begin to tell you how chilling it is to be sitting in a room where
Evil is being interviewed, and hear, when the war is mentioned, that her
major reaction was about how cruel the Allied bombing of Germany was. Again,
I also refer you to "The Twisted Muse," although it's not by any means a
perfect book.
Stephen W. Worth <big...@spumco.com> wrote in message
news:bigshot-0603...@pm01-41.ktb.net...
REG
others I think you are just wrong....Bjorling's comments to Vicky about
doing a Desdemona to his Otello were made late, in the year or so before he
died....I was not aware, and am not sure you are correct, that he was
scheduled for the Serafin Otello...I would just be curious to know the
source of the information, but it would not change what Victoria understood
from Bjorling (and there is ample evidence, at least anecdotally, that he
was gearing up to be able to record an Otello, but died prematurely). I do
not know the Peter Roberts biography at all, but it is certainly not my
understanding that Bicknell had all the decision making at EMI. I did not
believe, and didn't think I was suggesting, that Legge had produced Vicky's
albums. I knew that not to be the case.I've always understood that Legge had
much broader discretionary control at EMI than any of the other "producers",
and he was in fact ousted because of cost overruns for the company as a
whole.
One story from Vicky directly - as you know she recorded Antonia in the
ill-starred Hoffman, and Evil recorded the Giuletta. Victoria had actually
been slotted to sing the Giuletta. One week before the recording sessions
Vicky got a call (I think it was from legge, may have been his lovely wife,
I don't recall now) saying that "Elizabeth will be singing the Giulette, and
you will be singing the Antonia" The reasons are obvious, I think - at that
point Schwartzkopf was well beyond handling the general tessitura of the
role, much less the C#". It hardly seems likely to me that either of the
Legges were unaware of the steady descent of Madame S's voice until a week
before the recording, or that either of them, who were notorious rehearsers,
hadn't looked through the score.
I think your quote about Legge's regret about EMI's late entry into stereo
is interesting (I've heard it before), but all my information was that in
fact Legge was one of the great foot-draggers as to both the LP revolution,
and stereo, at EMI.
Dave Nee/Other Change of Hobbit <ocho...@dnai.com> wrote in message
news:d1ep6.7754$qv3.3...@nnrp5-w.sbc.net...
Edward A. Cowan
> BTW, if any of you is even
> remotely considering buyin' the Met Reiner 1952 (Schöffler, Wegner,
> Hopf! Holm, Janssen) from Arlecchino, he should know it's in B flat
> major. They f... up the transfer, so you need a machine with variable
> pitch to put it right. I don't have one.
I have a Pioneer CDJ-500G that I keep for such emergencies. It has
variable pitch, and it will also alter the tempo (up or down) *without*
changing the pitch. Also, this machine will play successfully some CDs
that my regular CD changer (Sony) either won't play or stalls while
playing them. The down side is that the Pioneer is a single disk
top-loader that can't be programmed. But just for the variable pitch
feature alone I recommend it. (There are undoubtedly other machines that
perform this function also...)
--
E.A.C.
PK
>
> PK, HG Wells said of Henry James, "He has a mind so fine that no idea can
> penetrate." You obviously don't see how small minded some of your comments
> are, and you're not going to... for example, I call colloquially callas'
> "german opera aria album" (and which any opera fan will be able to identify
> by that title, AND which contains music by Beethoven, Mozart and Weber) to
> illustrate the range of german/austrian composers which callas recorded and
> Vicky did not - your comment is irrelevant to the point of the posting.
What is relevant is the question of language. There is not a word of
German on Callas' record, even the Oberon aria is sung in the original
English. Victoria de los Angeles has recorded German repertoire in
German, but in general, Legge preferred give that to German natives;
this was the point I was making.
> The
> game you would like to play, now obvious to me is, "I am PK, convince
> me...." It's not an interesting game to me, and I don't give a hang whether
> you're convinced or not.
I can see that. Your difficulty being, I can be convinced only by facts,
and you don't have any facts to prove your point.
> While you announce that "Facts are not opinions.
> Opinions should be based on facts, at least I think so." and then go on
> later to say that the reason you don't like Evil Incarnate's Bach Cantata 51
> is that "she's trying to do it detache, trumpet like", it's again laughable.
> Both in published interviews, and in a live interview which I sat in on,
> Evil singled out the 51 as about her finest recording, precisely because
> there is, in her view, virtually no aspiration of the running passages (and
> in that she is, by and large, correct.) She made the same point at her
> master classes here at Julliard with Legge, which were largely exercises in
> sado-masochism. For both of them, aspiration was almost the Ultimate Evil,
> and to suggest anything detache about that perrformance says to me that you
> can not tell the difference between facts and opinions. You are of course
> entitled not to like the performance for a hundred reasons, but that would
> be an opinion...the legato binding of the notes is a fact.
I happen to know this recording by heart. Just to make sure, I took it
out and listened to it again. I didn't say there was "aspiration" there
at all; but there is no legato either, rather an attempt - not very
consequent, the articulation changing frequently - to articulate clearly
every note, not in the Stich-Randall defective way, without creating a
seamless line of which she was perfectly capable.
PK
Stephen W. Worth
<Rich...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I also refer you to "The Twisted Muse," although it's not by any means a
> perfect book.
What records would you recommend? I'm more interested in music
than politics.
REG
German artists singing with Michael Raucheisen at the piano, all recorded
during the war, so it should appeal to everyone.
Stephen W. Worth <big...@spumco.com> wrote in message
news:bigshot-0703...@10.1.1.8...
TJNORT
that had much the same cast as the 1955 Reiner performance except that Set
Svanholm sang Walther Von Stolzing. The conductor was Karl Boehm. I don't
remember much about the performance now, except that the sound wasn't bad and
that Svanholm even at age 50 (or thereabouts) seemed much preferable to Hans
Beirer in the part of Walther. (Svanholm's voice didn't seem to change much
over the years. I wonder why Decca didn't use him as the Tristan on the 1960
Solti recording. He sang Rienzi in concert that same year and sounds pretty
much like he always did, which is to say quite a bit better than Fritz Uhl.
Somewhere or other I read that Svanholm was still singing Tristan on stage in
1963, about a year or so prior to his death.) Maybe someone will put this 1954
performance out on CD, if a decent archive tape of it still exists.
PK
The Kutsch/Riemens gives 1963 as the date of his last Tristan in
Düsseldorf. He died in 1964.
PK
Edward A. Cowan
> Somewhere or other I read that Svanholm was still singing Tristan on stage in
> 1963, about a year or so prior to his death.) Maybe someone will put this
> 1954 performance out on CD, if a decent archive tape of it still exists.
Myto 3 MCD 951.121 has a 1946 Met _Tristan und Isolde_ with Svanholm
and Traubel, cond. Fritz Busch. Other principals include Margaret
Harshaw (Brangane), Deszö Ernster (King Marke), and Joel Berglund
(Kurvenal). A bonus has passages from Acts 2 and 3 for Brünnhilde,
Siegmund, and Wotan (Traubel, Melchior, Schorr) from the Dec.6, 1941,
Met broadcast of _Die Walküre_. That was Varnay's stage debut
(Sieglinde), but nothing of her performance is included.
I suspect this set may have to be ordered from Europe because of its Met
origins. I bought my copy in Vienna...
--
E.A.C.
G POLLIONI
it. Recording plans fell through and the late-60s version didn't materialize.
The Kubelik was a co-production of Bayerichen Rundfunk and DG -- and DG never
recouped its investment and licensed it to Calig in in the end. CJ.Luten got a
copy of the master tape from amigos at DG and circulated to various and sundry
for years (how do you think MYTO got it -- their version exactly resembles CJ's
seven-and-a-half dub in sound.
Gene
G POLLIONI
good as earlier on. I also have Dr. Reiner in excellent sound from a Met
broadcast from, I believe, 1952 with Schoffler (better than in '55) and
Walburga Wegner and the unfortunate Hans Hopf. This I have only on tape, and
so did not include in my survey on Meistersingers on CD.
Gene