Rachmaninov 2nd piano sonata - Trpceski or Sudbin?
rubio
already), and I wonder how Yevgeni Sudbin (BIS) and Simon Trpceski
(EMI) compare interpretation-wise? Who manage to plough the hidden
depths of the work? And I wouldn't mind being able to hear Pogorelich
in this work :-).
HvT
news:21a443e8-50fd-4f9f...@34g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
Indeed, Pogorelich in his good days would have been a tremendous
performer of the second sonata! Although the Rachmaninov CD is not his
best, Sudbin is the one to buy if you want depth. Depth is part of his
musical nature, even in Scarlatti. I'll leave it to others to name other
candidates than Sudbin or Trpceski ...
Henk
Rugby
> I'm looking for a modern account of the 2nd sonata (having Horowitz
> already)
We will probably exhaust soon all known versions, but :
Have heard Trpceski (very brilliant but not sure would meet your
definition of "depths") , but not Sudbin. As usual, a work that
probably requires several recordings.
There of course are the late 60's Ogdon and early 70's Villa, if those
are "modern", both of which I could reccomend, Ogdon with "depth" I
think, Villa certainly impassioned.
Also, the early 90's Fiorentino on APR , a cd that won a Diapason
d'Or, and also contains the Scriabin 2nd and Prokofieff 8th in the
bargain.
There should be reviews of all of these on-line. Very subjective, but
I do prefer all the above to the Horowitz I have heard only on
radio.Some fancy the Cliburn as well.
Regards, Rugby
JohnGavin
> On Apr 24, 3:33 am, rubio <espen.kibsga...@bredbandsservice.no> wrote:
>
> > I'm looking for a modern account of the 2nd sonata (having Horowitz
> > already)
>
> We will probably exhaust soon all known versions, but :
>
> Have heard Trpceski (very brilliant but not sure would meet your
> definition of "depths") , but not Sudbin. As usual, a work that
> probably requires several recordings.
>
go with the original version, which is a far cry from the savagely cut
Horowitz version. Yes, the composer gave his approval, but Horowitz
turns it from a vast contemplative work of conflicted emotions into a
mere virtuoso vehicle that would be sure to guarantee him success with
the public.
Akiralx
"rubio" <espen.k...@bredbandsservice.no> wrote in message
news:21a443e8-50fd-4f9f...@34g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
Sudbin is good (as is Grimaud) but for the best of the original text in
modern sound, it's easy: Kocsis on Philips.
Bob Lombard
----------
Isn't there a 2nd version by Rachmaninoff, also shorter than the 1st
version? or am I confusing the 2nd Sonata with something else?
bl
JohnGavin
>
> - Show quoted text -
I believe there are several cut versions of the original - the
Horowitz being the most radical.
td
>Some fancy the Cliburn as well.
Those some include me.
This performance is definitely desert island material.
Cliburn performs the sonata as written, complete. He also plays with
a fantastic sense of sweep, architecture, colour and passion.
Indeed, this is one of the greatest performances of ANY music by
Rachmaninoff that I am aware of.
Ne plus ultra.
TD
Simon Smith
Not quite; the original version of 1913 is, indeed, the one to hear; but
Rach made a revision in 1931 where he thinned out some of the textures,
and cut many passages. Sadly that's the one which is more often played
(though perhaps less so nowadays); Horowitz' version is actually a
conflation of the two, with bits from the 1913 version of the 1931
version depending on what he preferred, and so I think (since it
actually restores a few bits from the original) is slightly less cut
than Rach's 'official' revised version. Of course it also has the usual
Horowitz bastardisations, with extra octaves and things hereabouts.
Maybe I have weird taste, but I've yet to find a performance of this
piece that I really love. (Though at least it's fared better than the
1st Sonata, IMHO a finer piece by some distance.) Most make it too much
of a showpiece, and tend to overemphasise its somewhat harsh and choppy
nature so it becomes uncomfortable listening. I owned, briefly,
Horowitz' recording (at least one of his recordings; I don't know how
many there are. It was the one coupled with the 3rd Concerto with
Ormandy, IIRC.) It was the first thing I ever sold on eBay, but I hated
it so much that I seriously contemplated destroying it purely for the
perverse satisfaction that there would be one fewer copy, at least, in
the wild that might torment some poor unsuspecting listener.
Simon
JohnGavin
>
> - Show quoted text -
I believe that was the 2nd (indeed far worse) on RCA. The first on
Sony, from a live Carnegie Hall concert (around 1968) is much better.
The second recording suffers from the old Horowitz syndrome -
excessive toying with inner voices and textures, cute effects all at
the expense of the overall sweep and logic of the musical rhetoric.
Rugby
>
> If you want to hear the depths in the Second Sonata, then you have to
> go with the original version, which is a far cry from the savagely cut
> Horowitz version.
I also believe there is available a performance of the 1913
original,complete,untampered,by the Russian Dimitry Ratser. My first
hearing of the original, as Ogdon,Villa,Fiorentino all do the 1931 ( I
think). The Ratser was quite "good", may be available on his website.
Convinced me to prefer the 1913 original.
Rugby
Rugby
>> I also believe there is available a performance of the 1913
> original,complete,untampered,by the Russian Dimitry Ratser.
Here 'tis :
www.classicalarchives.com/artists/ratser.html
Rugby
Bob Lombard
--------
I think there may be a recording of the original version by a British
pianist on a British label too, but, um, maybe not; it may be I'm
thinking of the 4th PC. The 1st PC?
Hey, I've got to go refresh my highball.
bl
gperkins151
I think he fits your description, rubio.
Email me if you have trouble finding it. I think it's OOP.
It's on Elan.
George (from GMG)
Sol L. Siegel
<thorste...@vermontel.net> wrote:
>I think there may be a recording of the original version by a British
>pianist on a British label too, but, um, maybe not; it may be I'm
>thinking of the 4th PC. The 1st PC?
Gordon Fergus-Thompson, on Kingdom, coupled with the 1st. Long and
far OOP; the label itself appears to be out of business. I remember
liking it when I played it, but it's one of the many discs I haven't
heard in a very long time.
- Sol L. Siegel, Philadelphia, PA USA
JohnGavin
> On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 19:16:56 -0400, Bob Lombard
>
> >I think there may be a recording of the original version by a British
> >pianist on a British label too, but, um, maybe not; it may be I'm
> >thinking of the 4th PC. The 1st PC?
>
> Gordon Fergus-Thompson, on Kingdom, coupled with the 1st. Long and
> far OOP; the label itself appears to be out of business. I remember
> liking it when I played it, but it's one of the many discs I haven't
> heard in a very long time.
>
> - Sol L. Siegel, Philadelphia, PA USA
I've got the Fergus-Thompson Rachmaninov Sonatas. He emphasizes the
lyrical aspects of the music. These are a bit anti-virtuosic in
approach - warm tonally. Worth hearing, but perhaps a bit too free-
wheeling in approach - he doesn't have a handle on the Sonatas that
Ogden has. Still worth hearing though.
David Wake
Actually Cliburn's version is not quite the complete 1913 original.
He rewrites at least one section: the placid few bars before the start
of the 1st movement development. Maybe others too. But I totally
agree with your recommendation.
Rugby
> already)
Well, after another listen, and despite reservations about some
aspects, it is simply the case no Rach 2 Sonata collection, or in fact
any collection of any piano playing, is complete without the live
Joseph Villa circa 1973. Mon Dieu !!
Regards, Rugby
ne...@thump.org
<alex...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>Sudbin is good (as is Grimaud) but for the best of the original text in
>modern sound, it's easy: Kocsis on Philips.
I prefer Sudbin's more reflective less frenetic playing. Kocsis is
just draining! Yevgeny plays his own edition based on Horowitz's. Its
a great recording coupled with the multifaceted Chopin variations.
BIS recording is the best piano sound I've ever heard.
Cliburn's is quite extraordinary not least for the masssive sonority
he draws from the piano. Its quite unlike anyone else. And his
ultra-slavic long lines and melancholic bravura seem to come from
another planet. Maybe he grew up listening to recordings of Orthodox
Church bells peeling ! No wonder the Russians went crazy over him. And
for that matter, Cliburn's recording is the only one that seems to
make any sense of the piece as a sonata (as opposed to a brilliant
vehicle for piano bashing). BTW, we have the thank Bryce Morrison for
getting this performance released.
There a you tube video of him playing a Liszt Rhapsody (12?) from
Moscow that gives you an idea of how he was at the piano. The same
effortless bravura and bottomloss pit of sonority.
Rugby
> On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 14:17:58 +0100, "Akiralx"
> There a you tube video of him playing a Liszt Rhapsody (12?) from
> Moscow that gives you an idea of how he was at the piano. The same
> effortless bravura and bottomloss pit of sonority.
Despite all the others I have
(Fiorentino,Ogdon,Villa,Ratser,Trpceski,Ponti), you and TD have
convinced me to add Cliburn. My word, CM is expensive !
By the way, also at YouTube is VC in a 1962 Brahms 2nd with
Kondrashin, with the qualities you note above, and a maturity I do not
hear in his later recording with Reiner (?).
Rugby
td
LOL!
Perhaps he got lost? Remember: it was a live performance. And there
are a lot of notes in that piece.
In any event, I have the original Russian score of this work and will
check it very carefully.
TD
td
> On Apr 26, 3:51 am, n...@thump.org wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 14:17:58 +0100, "Akiralx"
> > There a you tube video of him playing a Liszt Rhapsody (12?) from
> > Moscow that gives you an idea of how he was at the piano. The same
> > effortless bravura and bottomloss pit of sonority.
>
> Despite all the others I have
> (Fiorentino,Ogdon,Villa,Ratser,Trpceski,Ponti), you and TD have
> convinced me to add Cliburn. My word, CM is expensive !
You mean you had not heard it?
It's an absolute "must" in this piece.
TD
Rugby
>
> You mean you had not heard it?
Well, I did hear it on radio once, and thought it just fast and loud,
but was not able to listen carefully so I should listen again. Also
not all of VC's recordings were great, by a long shot, although I do
like the "My Favorite Encores", and as I did have a few not too
shabby other Rach 2 Sonatas, have not had great incentive until now.
You have also been about the only fan of the VC Rach 2nd Sonata I knew
until n--thump, although I realize I should have given heed to your
previous insights. I'll add the VC with the Montague Phillips concerti
toward the bottom of the get - list. Must acquire the 1953 Kapell's
first, I'm sure you wouldn't agree.
Cheers, Rugby
Phil Caron
news:955e8adf-7911-4fa2...@x41g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
Actually, Cliburn's discography is one of unusually high quality. Very few
entries in it that are less than excellent, i.m.o., and all the Rachmaninoff
is outstanding.
- Phil Caron.
JohnGavin
> "td" <tomdedea...@mac.com> wrote in message
Maybe I've just been listening to the wrong things. I had LPs of the
named Beethoven Sonatas (Moonlight, Appasionata and Pathetique), Liszt
Sonata and a CD of "Favorite Brahms".
None struck me as outstandingly great. I'm willing to try again
though.
Rugby
>
> Actually, Cliburn's discography is one of unusually high quality. Very few
> entries in it that are less than excellent, i.m.o., and all the Rachmaninoff
> is outstanding.
The Beethoven , Schumann, Brahms concerti ?
Rugby
HvT
"Phil Caron" <vlad...@vermontel.net> schreef in bericht
news:12092403...@r2d2.vermontel.net...
Well said! He is a typical Russian, even in the sense that his Chopin
(with the exception of Op. 58) is one of his "lesser" composers.
Henk
Phil Caron
news:4813b60a$0$14344$e4fe...@news.xs4all.nl...
>> few entries in it that are less than excellent, i.m.o., and all the
>> Rachmaninoff is outstanding.
>>
>> - Phil Caron.
>
> Well said! He is a typical Russian, even in the sense that his Chopin
> (with the exception of Op. 58) is one of his "lesser" composers.
>
listen to Chopin these days.)
His Beethoven, Schumann, and Brahms concerti, I like them all. The Grieg
also. Ditto Tchaikovsky.
His Liszt - excellent.
His Debussy, not. Probably me.
Cliburn's whole approach was highly individual, but never seemed capricious.
That makes a lot of points with me, especially in warhorses. It also evokes
in me a lot of positive subjective responses - his playing often feels
fresh, robust, innocent . . . His eschewal of many more usual phrasings,
agogics, tempi, and so forth are ok, because he still provides loads of
style and nuance that do things I like. His sound and his command of the
instrument were perfect for what he apparently wanted to do - and
successfully did.
- Phil Caron
ne...@thump.org
<dag...@comcast.net> wrote:
> CD of "Favorite Brahms".
Very dreary alas. There's a CD of Mozart and Debussy I have that's an
eye opener indeed - very stylish Mozart playing indeed! I have a hunch
that Mozart sorts out the men from the boys! These piano competition
bangers should be forced to play a lot of Mozart and Haydn before
going near anything else.
td
> "td" <tomdedea...@mac.com> wrote in message
Correct.
TD
td
Take it again from the top, John.
TD
Rugby
Certainly respect your veiws and comments.
Here is a positive article about his career, which also mentions some
concerns about his playing shared by some of us :
www.nytimes.com/2008/03/09/arts/music/09tomm.html
Rugby
Sol L. Siegel
>There's a CD of Mozart and Debussy I have that's an
>eye opener indeed - very stylish Mozart playing indeed!
That Cliburn disc also included a darned good Barber Sonata. An odd
program, pretty much dictated by what hadn't been reissued yet (the
Barber was paired with Prokofiev 6 on LP), but a rewarding one.
>I have a hunch
>that Mozart sorts out the men from the boys! These piano competition
>bangers should be forced to play a lot of Mozart and Haydn before
>going near anything else.
He once played Mozart PC 25 with Ormandy at a benefit concert. It was
broadcast, so perhaps it'll turn up one way or another someday.
Tony
Nope, Cliburn plays it exactly as he himself prepared it. The Sonata
is credited as being his own arrangement, which is like 99% the
Original version.
Cliburn is on record (so to speak) stating that he thought that there
were 1 or 2 small sections from the revised edition that he thought
were musically superior to the original, so he kept those revisions
and otherwise plays the rest of the Sonata in the original complete
edition.
Does anyone know which sources the My Favorite Rachmaninoff release
uses? I assume they are better than the earlier RCA version and the
GPE version. But are they the original masters..are they going to be
the best we will get?
cheers,
Tony
Tony
> "td" <tomdedea...@mac.com> wrote in message
I very much agree, though recordings closer to 1970 are more likely to
be less inspired.
The handful of contemporaneous live accounts I have heard are
stunning. The VAI videos will be a welcome addition.
cheers,
Tony
Steve Emerson
"Phil Caron" <vlad...@vermontel.net> wrote:
> "HvT" <hvt...@xs4all.nl> wrote in message
> news:4813b60a$0$14344$e4fe...@news.xs4all.nl...
> >
> > "Phil Caron" <vlad...@vermontel.net> schreef in bericht
> >>
> >> Actually, Cliburn's discography is one of unusually high quality. Very
> >> few entries in it that are less than excellent, i.m.o., and all the
> >> Rachmaninoff is outstanding.
> >>
> >> - Phil Caron.
> >
> > Well said! He is a typical Russian, even in the sense that his Chopin
> > (with the exception of Op. 58) is one of his "lesser" composers.
> >
> I like Cliburn's Chopin (for the most part, and to the extent that I can
> listen to Chopin these days.)
I'm with Henk as to the primacy of his Op. 58 -- his Op. 49 Fantasy is
also one of the strongest I know. O/w, not a lot that stands out for me
among the Chopin.
> His Beethoven, Schumann, and Brahms concerti, I like them all. The Grieg
> also. Ditto Tchaikovsky.
>
> His Liszt - excellent.
The sonata as well? I don't think I've heard but have been curious.
> His Debussy, not. Probably me.
Cliburn's Brahms intermezzi as found on the late-'90s "My Favorite
Brahms" are another joy. Hard to put one's finger on why, but I return
to them often. Tempi seem right, nothing forced, but little that is
inadequately milked. The instrument used, with darkish lows, is an
asset. And this is a very nicely transferred disc -- the earlier
release, where some of these were coupled with the PC2, is a lousy,
overfiltered job. (There's a later U.S. release of the PC under the
"Living Stereo" moniker, with the Macdowell coupled -- would suspect
that one is OK -- unfortunately OP and scarce.)
--SE.
td
LOL!
The GPE version is identical to the RCAVictor version.
Why not ask before you make a fool of yourself?
Incidentally, this recording belongs to Melodiya and was licensed to
RCA Victor in the LP era. I presume you are familiar with Soviet sound
techniques circa 1961. Not wonderful. But irrelevant. The playing here
overcomes all obstacles,
TD
td
> In article <1209260976.177...@r2d2.vermontel.net>,
> "Phil Caron" <vladi...@vermontel.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > "HvT" <hvtu...@xs4all.nl> wrote in message
> >news:4813b60a$0$14344$e4fe...@news.xs4all.nl...
>
> > > "Phil Caron" <vladi...@vermontel.net> schreef in bericht
>
> > >> Actually, Cliburn's discography is one of unusually high quality. Very
> > >> few entries in it that are less than excellent, i.m.o., and all the
> > >> Rachmaninoff is outstanding.
>
> > >> - Phil Caron.
>
> > > Well said! He is a typical Russian, even in the sense that his Chopin
> > > (with the exception of Op. 58) is one of his "lesser" composers.
>
> > I like Cliburn's Chopin (for the most part, and to the extent that I can
> > listen to Chopin these days.)
>
> I'm with Henk as to the primacy of his Op. 58 -- his Op. 49 Fantasy is
> also one of the strongest I know. O/w, not a lot that stands out for me
> among the Chopin.
>
> > His Beethoven, Schumann, and Brahms concerti, I like them all. The Grieg
> > also. Ditto Tchaikovsky.
>
> > His Liszt - excellent.
>
> The sonata as well? I don't think I've heard but have been curious.
>
> > His Debussy, not. Probably me.
>
> Cliburn's Brahms intermezzi as found on the late-'90s "My Favorite
> Brahms" are another joy. Hard to put one's finger on why, but I return
> to them often. Tempi seem right, nothing forced, but little that is
> inadequately milked. The instrument used, with darkish lows, is an
You're right, Steve. Very hard to pinpoint just why VC is such a
satisfying musician.
interestingly enough there is almost NO showmanship in his genes. On
stage he was a very sober presence, totally immersed in whatever he
was playing. Reiner was notoriously hard on soloists and he got along
famously with VC and vice versa.
TD
JohnGavin
>
> - Show quoted text -
Yet few listeners consider their Brahms PC#2, Beethoven PC4 or 5 as
one of the really great recordings of those works.
The Cliburn/Kondrashin Tchaikovsky PC#1 / Rachmaninoff #3 are
frequently mentioned as great recorded interpretations - as standing
among the best.
My question then is, what other Cliburn recordings, concerto or solo
stand with the best versions? Apparently Rach Sonata #2 - what else?
Tony
You know, Tom, sometimes I think people around here are too hard on
you, and I've even defended you at times when I thought you were
right, but when you post gargage like this I can see where people are
coming from.
Some reviewers have claimed the Favorite Rachmaninoff issue sounds
somewhat better than previous releases. But a reviewer also claimed
that the GPE sounded better than the original RCA issue. But I
figured the GPE would not have gone to the trouble of getting the
masters from Moscow (however crude they might be) even if they were
available, and I never bothered buying the GPE Cliburn edition since I
had long owned all those recordings. Like other issues, I figured
Philips simply used what RCA had given them.
As some folks here will tell you, or as you can read for yourself, I
have long been one of Cliburn's biggest advocates here, going back to
when I started posting here in 1994. And I know pretty much
everything about his discography and performances (incidentally, if
you like this Rachmaninoff sonata, you will love his live Moscow
performance of the Liszt sonata, much more energetic than his studio
account...it was released on Melodiya LP and will appear on an
upcoming DVD). So save your snide comments for someone else.
Tony
Rugby
> My question then is, what other Cliburn recordings, concerto or solo
> stand with the best versions? Apparently Rach Sonata #2 - what else?
Nothing much, IMHO.And the Rach 2 I recall as just fast and loud. His
MacDowell # 2 is fine. The Greig with Ormandy is fine. The Reiner
recordings are superficial, except their Rach 2nd Concerto where VC
plays quite well, but Reiner dozes off.
When I was about 16 ( circa 1964) , I attended a VC recital. He
started late, opened with the Star Spangled Banner, did Fantasiestuke,
some Chopin and Beethoven, and ended (!!!) with the Barber Sonata, I
had never heard before. In the green room, I complimented him on the
Barber fugue, he asked if I played the Barber, and Rilda Bee, at his
elbow, told him I did not mean I played the Barber, at which point he
looked pained at me. His 1968 10th anniversary tour concert in
Minneapolis, where he played the Tchaikovsky and Rach 2, were
disengaged readings, followed by almost robotic 4 encores, including
Widmung and the Szymanowski Etude and Chopin Heroic Polonaise.
Wonderful 1958 Tchaikovsky and Rach 3 ( still my fav), and MacDowell,
a few good encores and the Barber Sonata, that's it, IMHO.
The early 1960's Russian concerts reflect what might have been.
Rugby
Rugby
HvT
"JohnGavin" <dag...@comcast.net> schreef in bericht
news:883b7d69-1116-4351...@a1g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>My question then is, what other Cliburn recordings, concerto or solo
>stand with the best versions? Apparently Rach Sonata #2 - what else?
At least the Rachmaninov etudes and preludes he recorded - and the
Chopin Op. 58.
Henk
td
Since you did not even hear the GPE version, I need to add nothing to
your remarks.
Please do NOT defend me. I don't need your help, as you know full
well.
You may have been posting about VC since 1994.
I first encountered his playing when he came to Toronto in the mid
1950s. I have met and talked to him many times and heard him live in
most of his repertoire. Personally I recall fondly a late evening meal
in a steakhouse in Fort Worth in 1977, when he first told me about his
sabbatical, which has unfortunately lasted until today,
notwithstanding a few concerts here and there.
The Liszt sonata? But I already own that on a Melodiya CD together
with the Appassionata sonata. Good to see you're getting to know the
Russian recordings of VC.
But please ask before you make groundless pronouncements on the source
of this or that recording. And there is nothing "snide" in that piece
of advice. Just plain common sense, I would think.
TD
Tony
Trust me, Tom, I am not trying to help you. I am simply trying to
help the discourse, and that means agreeing or disagreeing with
whoever is right. I have agreed with you on some things, and have
disagreed with you on others, i.e. Zhukov. In my opinion that is what
these boards should be about.
> You may have been posting about VC since 1994.
>
> I first encountered his playing when he came to Toronto in the mid
> 1950s. I have met and talked to him many times and heard him live in
> most of his repertoire. Personally I recall fondly a late evening meal
> in a steakhouse in Fort Worth in 1977, when he first told me about his
> sabbatical, which has unfortunately lasted until today,
> notwithstanding a few concerts here and there.
>
> The Liszt sonata? But I already own that on a Melodiya CD together
> with the Appassionata sonata. Good to see you're getting to know the
> Russian recordings of VC.
Tom, I have that Melodiya CD with the Appassionata sonata, and there
is no Liszt Sonata on it, nor has there ever been a live Liszt Sonata
from Cliburn on CD. The Melodiya CD you speak of contains the
Appassionata, the Liszt Liebestraum n.3, and the Tchaikovsky Concerto
n.1. An excellent release, by the way. An Appassionata that rivals
Richter in intensity. Van Cliburn was really something. Just like
the live Liszt Sonata I am speaking of, which again, does not appear
on that Melodiya CD as you claim.
So why don't YOU go check things before you make a fool of yourself.
> But please ask before you make groundless pronouncements on the source
> of this or that recording. And there is nothing "snide" in that piece
> of advice. Just plain common sense, I would think.
Groundless pronoucements? Hardly. As I said, most reviewers have
claimed RCA Gold and GPE sound the same, which would be typical even
though one reviewer said he thought GPE sounded a little better.
Whether or not they are the same, however, is not the point, because I
was asking about the latest Favorite Rachmaninoff release, which RCA
claims is better than previous issues (as some reviewers also
claim)...I was asking about the sources used for this Favorite
Rachmaninoff release, and whether these sources are the best we will
get. Go back and read the post. What don't you understand?
Tony
Steve Emerson
<454d62e6-5827-4650...@x35g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
Tony <voxp...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Groundless pronoucements? Hardly. As I said, most reviewers have
> claimed RCA Gold and GPE sound the same, which would be typical even
> though one reviewer said he thought GPE sounded a little better.
> Whether or not they are the same, however, is not the point, because I
> was asking about the latest Favorite Rachmaninoff release, which RCA
> claims is better than previous issues (as some reviewers also
> claim)...I was asking about the sources used for this Favorite
> Rachmaninoff release, and whether these sources are the best we will
> get. Go back and read the post. What don't you understand?
Yes, I noticed that the question did not seem to have been answered --
or if it was, the answer was ambiguously worded.
Tony, I can tell you, as previously intimated -- the 1999 "My Favorite
Brahms" release in the same series as the contemporaneous "My Favorite
Rachmaninoff" -- is a substantial improvement, transfer-wise, over the
"RCA Van Cliburn Collection" release of five of the same intermezzi.
Excellent transfer, in fact, -- so to spend your money for a minute, I
think the Rach. release would be well worth taking a chance on.
Otherwise -- please post when (if?) the DVD with a Liszt sonata becomes
available. Two more questions. Any idea if the Russian Appassionata is
currently available? And what about the Brahms PC with Kondrashin, which
seems to get pretty much universally bashed.
Thx,
SE.
td
> Groundless pronoucements? Hardly. As I said, most reviewers have
> claimed RCA Gold and GPE sound the same, which would be typical even
> though one reviewer said he thought GPE sounded a little better.
The point is they are identical. Any critic who hears differently is
one you cannot trust. So, as I said, "groundless", or certainly not
ground I would want to stand on myself.
But rather than making such pronouncements, based on
"critics" (unnamed), why not simply ask? The question is easily
answered and authoritatively.
Just listened again to the "new" version on "My Favourite
Rachmaninoff" and that, too, betrays all the woeful flaws of the
originals., whether LP or CD. No matter. It's still very much a sows
ear of a recording. All of which is irrelevant, of course, in the
face of a pianist who understood this piece before it had even a
modicum of popularity. Indeed, before Horowitz had taken hold of the
piece and made it into a kind of virtuoso showpiece, specially the
finale, which he used as encore material.
TD
td
>Two more questions. Any idea if the Russian Appassionata is
> currently available? And what about the Brahms PC with Kondrashin, which
> seems to get pretty much universally bashed.
Not sure about the Melodiya, Steve. My copy (which does have the
Liebestraum, not the sonata, as I had remembered incorrectly) has a
pub date of 1991. Given the events in Russia since then, I would doubt
that it is still available. All the performances dated from the
Tchaikovsky Competition in 1958 as they give an original pub date of
1958. Incidentally, I recall the CBC in Toronto possessing the
original Melodiyas of the 1958 competition on LP, as we used them for
the broadcast series I did in 1978 which contained a retrospective on
prior competitions. His delicious performance of his own arrangement
of "Moscow Nights" came from that period and we used it as a signature
tune on the series. Lord only knows what has become of that LP library
since the inception of CDs and now the disappearance of classical
music from the CBC airwaves. Perhaps they will sell it off?
The Brahms 2 with Kondrashin was available (62695-2), and I thought I
saw it available yesterday when I was thumbing through Amazon's
listings for Rachmaninoff. (It has the Paganini Variations as a
companion) Both date from 1972, which means that they postdate the
Reiner version of the Brahms by 12 years. I have not listened to this
CD in a very long time, so I cannot comment on the performance, just
on its availability.
Incidentally, people here should know that RCA Victor is somewhat
although not completely reluctant to deal with the Cliburn legacy as
the terms dictated by Sol Hurok in 1958 are so luxurious that the
company can hardly make money. Well, not literally true, but they
can't make as much as they are used to making, shall I say. His
royalty agreement is the best I have EVER heard of. The terms for
Philips to use his RCA Victor recordings were also very lucrative for
the pianist. Not that he doesn't deserve it, of course, just that the
terms are almost prohibitive and unheard of in today's market. One
thing is sure; you will never see a Van Cliburn CD at budget price in
his lifetime. (I disregard the pirates, of course, who have not signed
any agreements with any artist and have no intention of doing so)
TD
td
> I'm looking for a modern account of the 2ndsonata(having Horowitz
> already), and I wonder how Yevgeni Sudbin (BIS) and Simon Trpceski
> (EMI) compare interpretation-wise? Who manage to plough the hidden
> depths of the work? And I wouldn't mind being able to hear Pogorelich
> in this work.
I don't mean to dredge up this subject again, but just alert some
collectors that I have recently listened again to the live version of
this sonata - complete? It did seem very long but I was in the car at
the time and without my score - by Michael Ponti in one of his Dante
"Ponti Live" CDs. It is an astonishing performance, full throated,
well recorded, and oozing with passion and conviction.
I also realize that this, like Ponti's other Dante CDs will be largely
unavailable, which is a great pity. There is also a quite staggering
Petroushka.
Anyway, the pantheon is filling up.
TD
Rugby
> I also realize that this, like Ponti's other Dante CDs will be largely
> unavailable, which is a great pity. There is also a quite staggering
>
TD, I do have Ponti in this Sonata on a Vox "Allegreto" cd, coupled
with the 2 Suites he does with Robert Leonardy.Still available.
No audience sounds so dont know if the same as the Dante "Ponti Live"
Sonata, although Ponti's playing is very animated , as it is in his
"Ponti Live" Rach 3rd Concerto with the "double" first movement
cadenza ( anyone else ever done THAT ?) .
I realize we have quite enough maniacs at RMCR , but I confess to
being a bit of a Pontiac. Although, I drive a Ford.
Rugby