Original Instrument Brahms Symphonies
Robert H. Risch
I believe both Charles Mackerras and Roger Norrington have made sets
of Brahms symphonies which claim to follow the practices of Brahms'
time. I'd be interested in hearing how these sets compare to the the
standard ones. Thanks.
Frank
Robert H. Risch heeft geschreven in bericht
<351fb9d...@news3.ibm.net>...
I don't think that Mackerras has done them with historical instruments. He
did some Schubert and Mendelssohn, though.
I have heard the Norrington's. It was nice to hear that Brahms, like most
great composers, strived for clearness; many details became audible that
aren't to be heard in most performances that we know. The orchestra almost
sounds 'empty'.
I must say that I didn't like Norrington's vision on the music, but this is
a personal thing.
I am waiting for Gardiner.
Frank
a...@cts.canberra.edu.au
In article <6fou70$5mh$1...@news.surfnet.nl>,
"Frank" <fra...@dds.nl> wrote:
>
>
> Robert H. Risch heeft geschreven in bericht
> <351fb9d...@news3.ibm.net>...
> >I believe both Charles Mackerras and Roger Norrington have made sets
> >of Brahms symphonies which claim to follow the practices of Brahms'
> >time. I'd be interested in hearing how these sets compare to the the
> >standard ones. Thanks.<
>
> I don't think that Mackerras has done them with historical instruments.
Not so much with historic instruments, but still an historically-informed
performance based on contemporary information from Meiningen concerning to
Brahms own ideas about interpretation. The number of strings is smaller, the
horns are Vienna pattern (with valves) the brass narrow bore and the flutes
wooden. I've only heard the Third which impressed me greatly.
> I have heard the Norrington's. It was nice to hear that Brahms, like most
> great composers, strived for clearness; many details became audible that
> aren't to be heard in most performances that we know.
Hear, hear!
>The orchestra almost sounds 'empty'.
Because of the reduced number of strings and their softer, more astringent
tone, perhaps? Very noticable in Norrinton's (???) recent recording of Ma
Vlast (in Prague) with about 40 strings only.
Regards,
Andrew C.
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Simon Roberts
Robert H. Risch (rri...@ibm.net) wrote:
: I believe both Charles Mackerras and Roger Norrington have made sets
: of Brahms symphonies which claim to follow the practices of Brahms'
: time. I'd be interested in hearing how these sets compare to the the
: standard ones. Thanks.
Mackerras doesn't use period instruments; instead he uses a smallish
orchestra (modelled on one Brahms is known to have liked) and tries to
emulate what he thinks was period rubato as well as portamenti. The
latter practices don't convince me at all; they sound applied rather than
natural (after all, Mackerras has never before done anything that sounds
like rubato; his Mozart symphonies have no more give-and-take than a
metronome does). The most immediately noticeable feature of his set is
the prominent brass and inaudible timpani (odd, given the size of the
orchestra).
Norrington offers period instruments but little rubato and, if memory
serves (I haven't listened for a while) no portamenti. There are
interesting details (I like how the timpanist varies the volume at the
start of #1) but the whole thing seems tentative and underpowered --
nothing to do with the size of the orchestra or its instruments, but a
reflection of Norrington's undertated accents, middle-of-the road tempi,
etc. The rather distant sound undermines the differences made by the
instruments.
If the point of the exercise is "authentic" Brahms I don't see the need to
look beyond someone who was very much alive and active when Brahms was and
who apparently won Brahms' approval, i.e., Weingartner, whose thrillingly
direct, unfussy (and largely rubato- and portamento-free) recordings are
readily available in pretty good sound.
Simon
Michael Weston
Simon Roberts <si...@dept.english.upenn.edu> wrote:
: If the point of the exercise is "authentic" Brahms I don't see the need to
: look beyond someone who was very much alive and active when Brahms was and
: who apparently won Brahms' approval, i.e., Weingartner, whose thrillingly
: direct, unfussy (and largely rubato- and portamento-free) recordings are
: readily available in pretty good sound.
: Simon
They are not readily available, but they can be ordered from Berkshire at
the moment.
I regret the linling here of fussiness with rubato and portamento. I
think both the latter two could be used more often to positive effect.
Because MacKerras doesn't pull it off is no reason to dismiss their
potential.
michael
Simon Roberts
Michael Weston (rush...@europa.com) wrote:
: Simon Roberts <si...@dept.english.upenn.edu> wrote:
: : If the point of the exercise is "authentic" Brahms I don't see the need to
: : look beyond someone who was very much alive and active when Brahms was and
: : who apparently won Brahms' approval, i.e., Weingartner, whose thrillingly
: : direct, unfussy (and largely rubato- and portamento-free) recordings are
: : readily available in pretty good sound.
: : Simon
: They are not readily available, but they can be ordered from Berkshire at
: the moment.
The EMI mightn't be (but it's still around as an import isn't it?), but
there are alternative transfers on Centaur and Arkadia (I think).
: I regret the linling here of fussiness with rubato and portamento. I
^^^^^^^
?
: think both the latter two could be used more often to positive effect.
: Because MacKerras doesn't pull it off is no reason to dismiss their
: potential.
I quite agree; didn't mean to imply otherwise. I like portamento from
Mengelberg et al., rubato from -- well, few conductors don't do it to some
extent, etc.
Simon
Roland van Gaalen - Amsterdam - NL
: Simon Roberts <si...@dept.english.upenn.edu> wrote:
: : If the point of the exercise is "authentic" Brahms I don't see the need to
: : look beyond someone who was very much alive and active when Brahms was and
: : who apparently won Brahms' approval, i.e., Weingartner, whose thrillingly
: : direct, unfussy (and largely rubato- and portamento-free) recordings are
: : readily available in pretty good sound.
: : Simon
Mengelberg learned Brahms's violin concerto from Joseph Joachim, and I
believe that Mengelberg's notes made at that occasion are still available.
Interestingly, neither Joachim nor Mengelberg were fanatically
opposed to rubato and portamento.
Roland van Gaalen
Amsterdam
Michael Weston
Roland van Gaalen - Amsterdam - NL <r...@xs2.xs4all.nl> wrote:
: Mengelberg learned Brahms's violin concerto from Joseph Joachim, and I
: believe that Mengelberg's notes made at that occasion are still available.
: Interestingly, neither Joachim nor Mengelberg were fanatically
: opposed to rubato and portamento.
: Roland van Gaalen
: Amsterdam
Harnoncourt states that some his interpretive decisions were based on
looking at (conductor's) notes on some of the older available scores.
Perhaps I'm wrong that the different sound he pulls from the BPO is based
to a degree on how it was done earlier in the century. But this makes the
performance more interesting even when it is more clumsy than poetic.
Not that this makes his approach more "right"- I don't care about
correctness for a second, so I regret ruling out portamento or heavy
rubato for the sake of rightness.
michael
Simon Roberts
Simon Roberts (si...@dept.english.upenn.edu) wrote:
: Robert H. Risch (rri...@ibm.net) wrote:
: : I believe both Charles Mackerras and Roger Norrington have made sets
: : of Brahms symphonies which claim to follow the practices of Brahms'
: : time. I'd be interested in hearing how these sets compare to the the
: : standard ones. Thanks.
: Mackerras doesn't use period instruments; instead he uses a smallish
: orchestra (modelled on one Brahms is known to have liked) and tries to
: emulate what he thinks was period rubato as well as portamenti. The
: latter practices don't convince me at all; they sound applied rather than
: natural (after all, Mackerras has never before done anything that sounds
: like rubato; his Mozart symphonies have no more give-and-take than a
: metronome does). The most immediately noticeable feature of his set is
: the prominent brass and inaudible timpani (odd, given the size of the
: orchestra).
It may just be my present mood, but I'm going to confuse anyone who cares
and contradict -- somewhat -- what I wrote above. It occurred to me that
I had far too many recordings of Brahms symphonies (how could I possibly
want more than 20 complete sets plus duplicates of individuals?) so I sat
down to weed some out, starting as usual with what is, for some odd
reason, the most difficult to pull off (the first movement, anyway, which
is usually far too slow). After being bored by the predictably turgid,
sluggish, trudging that most I had listened to inflict on the music,
Mackerras seemed like a breath of fresh air. I still find his tempo
variations excessive and the timpani irritatingly obscure, but the wealth
of orchestral detail not only revealed but phrased more imaginatively than
by almost anyone else is startling. So I would strongly urge anyone who
already has one or two standard sets to investigate his -- and since
they're available individually, start with the disc containing 3/4.
Simon
Ethan Evan Prater
Also sprach Simon Roberts...
:It occurred to me that
:I had far too many recordings of Brahms symphonies (how could I possibly
:want more than 20 complete sets plus duplicates of individuals?) so I sat
:down to weed some out, starting as usual with what is, for some odd
:reason, the most difficult to pull off (the first movement, anyway, which
:is usually far too slow).
Which symphony are you referring to?
-Ethan
--
Ethan Evan Prater
pra...@bway.net
Simon Roberts
Ethan Evan Prater (pra...@bway.net) wrote:
: Also sprach Simon Roberts...
Oh, that... 3. (Norrington did better than I remembered too, Harnoncourt
even worse.)
Simon
Matthew Silverstein
Simon Roberts wrote in message
<6g7t6n$r7h$1...@netnews.upenn.edu>...
>Oh, that... 3. (Norrington did better than I remembered too,
Harnoncourt
>even worse.)
How did Abbado do? Or have you already burned his CDs in effigy?
Matty Silverstein
Simon Roberts
Matthew Silverstein (mesi...@unix.amherst.edu) wrote:
: How did Abbado do? Or have you already burned his CDs in effigy?
I keep his #2 because I like Lipovsek's Alto Rhapsody that fills out the
disc. I find his cycle competent and undistinctive; it's certainly not
bad, but one can do better than "not bad", fortunately....
Simon
Ryan Hare
Simon Roberts (si...@dept.english.upenn.edu) wrote:
: Matthew Silverstein (mesi...@unix.amherst.edu) wrote:
And for a counter opinion: to my ears, Abbado's BPO No. 1 and No. 4 are a
good deal better than "not bad." No. 4 is at least excellent, and No. 1 is
one of the best; it's truly outstanding. However, I agree that #2 and #3
are only a little better than "not bad." Interestingly, the broadcast
concert of Berlin/Abbado in Carnegie Hall a couple of years ago doing
Symphony No. 2 was *a lot* more interesting than the recording that made
it to the DGG set.
Ryan Hare
rh...@u.washington.edu
MRPERMAN
>Interestingly, the broadcast
>concert of Berlin/Abbado in Carnegie Hall a couple of years ago doing
>Symphony No. 2 was *a lot* more interesting than the recording that made
>it to the DGG set.
The Abbado/Berlin Brahms cycle at Carnegie two years ago - the four symphonies
and four concerti over four concerts - were among the best concerts I've ever
attended. Absolutely riveting performances.
Marc Perman