Re: Heads-up! Tokyo Qt. Haydn Op. 50 DG CD on lossless group!!
Paul Ilechko
> For those who have been seeking this 2-disk gem on CD (I've had it on
> LP for years and missed the tiny window in which it was available on
> digital) some wonderful soul has shared it on
> alt.binaries.sounds.lossless.classical, complete with scans and notes.
> The only time I've ever seen the Tokyo's DG Op. 50 CDs for sale was on
> eBay for around $50.
>
> Oh happy days!
Unfortunately some of us don't have access to binary newsgroups.
Steve de Mena
Can't you subscribe to Giganews or EasyNews?
Steve
Bob Lombard
I transferred my LP set some years back. They are 'useful'
interpretations. Somewhat hard-edged, but the good humor comes
through. Our friend Lena had reservations, but I don't remember (and
probably didn't understand) what they were.
bl
Paul Ilechko
I subscribe to news.individual.net, who I like very much, but they don't
provide binary groups. Not that I particularly blame them ...
Steve de Mena
So you don't have access out of choice, and thus I don't understand
the point of your post.
Steve
Gerard
In that case it's not a matter of not having access but a case of not paying for
another news server.
Paul Ilechko
I didn't ask you to. You could easily have ignored it.
Paul Ilechko
>>> Paul Ilechko wrote:
>
>>> For those who have been seeking this 2-disk gem on CD (I've had it on
>>> LP for years and missed the tiny window in which it was available on
>>> digital) some wonderful soul has shared it on
>>> alt.binaries.sounds.lossless.classical, complete with scans and notes.
>>> The only time I've ever seen the Tokyo's DG Op. 50 CDs for sale was on
>> eBay for around $50.
>>> Oh happy days!
>>>> Unfortunately some of us don't have access to binary newsgroups.
>>>>
>>>> Can't you subscribe to Giganews or EasyNews?
>>> I subscribe to news.individual.net, who I like very much, but they don't
>>> provide binary groups. Not that I particularly blame them ...
>
The end of my pencil? Do I win a prize if I get it right?
Paul Ilechko
> I would upload the lossless files to RapidShare, but we'r'e talking
> around 650 megabytes. Usenet and (a distant second) torrents are the
> fastest, most efficient means of sharing this sort of thing. It took
> me 15 minutes for both discs. A one-time $8 subscription to GigaNews'
> lowest plan provides 2 gigabytes of downloads, more than enough...a
> real bargain for this otherwise unattainable set.
No big deal, but thanks for the suggestion. I'm just not that fanatical
a collector that I'm going to sign up for a new service just to get this
one item.
David Cook
> Unfortunately some of us don't have access to binary newsgroups.
For those who are looking for an available set, I find the Nomos Quartet on
CPO to be very enjoyable. Excellent sound quality. I haven't listened to these
Tokyo Quartet recordings yet.
Dave Cook
aravin...@wmconnect.com
Doesn't your ISP provide some kind of access?
Incidentally, I've never seen as many CPE Bach aficionados as in the
binary lossless newsgroup.
AA
david...@aol.com
> No big deal, but thanks for the suggestion. I'm just not that fanatical
> a collector that I'm going to sign up for a new service just to get this
> one item.
Inevitably it comes down to how important the "one item" is to any
given collector. I was lucky enough to pick up the Tokyo's Op. 50 set
when it was first released on CD, and I like it very much, but I
really don't think it's on the same level as any number of other
recordings of Haydn quartets by, for example, the Griller, the Tátrai,
or the Allegri. As much as I like the Tokyo in the Op. 50, I actually
prefer the Fine Arts.
-david gable
simong...@googlemail.com
I remember an eclectic box set from Music & Arts a while back, but
don't think I've seen much else around.
A quick check reveals I don't own a Haydn Op.50!
Simon
david...@aol.com
> Is the Fine Arts [recording of Haydn's op. 50] available on CD David?
No, it isn't. In the mid-60's, Vox invited a wonderful Hungarian
violinist active in London named Béla Dekány to form a quartet for the
purpose of recording the complete Haydn quartets. You may not have
heard of Dekány, and Googling yields precious little information about
him, but you're very apt to own some recording or other featuring
him. He was concert master (or leader), first of the Philharmonia and
later of the BBC SO. As such he was concert master for Klemperer's
recording of the Saint Matthew Passion with the Philharmonia, for
Boulez's first recording of Pli selon pli with the BBC SO, for Colin
Davis's first recording of Benvenuto Cellini, also with the BBC SO,
etc. The Dekány Quartet recorded all of the early quartets through
the Op. 33 quartets and some of the later quartets. At some point,
the Fine Arts Quartet took over, recording most of the quartets from
Op. 50 on up: I'm not sure which quartet ended up recording the
quartets between 33 and 50. I've got the Dekány's recording of Op. 20
as a commercial release and all of the FAQ's Vox Haydn recordings in
private transfers from LP done by a couple of friends of mine.
Amazingly enough, I've never picked up the Music & Arts set, although
I should, given my enthusiasm for so much of this quartet's playing:
I actually like their studio recordings of Haydn and Mozart recordings
rather more than their Beethoven.
-david gable
Paul Ilechko
> On Dec 27, 2:04 pm, Paul Ilechko <pilec...@patmedia.net> wrote:
>> MusikLover wrote:
>>> For those who have been seeking this 2-disk gem on CD (I've had it on
>>> LP for years and missed the tiny window in which it was available on
>>> digital) some wonderful soul has shared it on
>>> alt.binaries.sounds.lossless.classical, complete with scans and notes.
>>> The only time I've ever seen the Tokyo's DG Op. 50 CDs for sale was on
>>> eBay for around $50.
>>> Oh happy days!
>> Unfortunately some of us don't have access to binary newsgroups.
>
> Doesn't your ISP provide some kind of access?
No, it doesn't. If it did, I would not have said that I didn't have
access. In fact, my ISP does not provide any Usenet groups, I have to
get them from a third party.
Gerard
But the have choosen a third party that never has supported binary groups. In
this case, where your ISP also does not support them, that is not a very smart
choise.
simong...@googlemail.com
Simon
Steve Emerson
<f29e4173-6227-4fc3...@c4g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
"simong...@gmail.com" <simong...@googlemail.com> wrote:
Consider the Amati Quartet and the Quatuor Festetics. I picked up the
latter several months ago when Berkshire had it and it's now probably my
favorite HIP recording of Haydn quartets. Astutely played, gorgeous
sound. The Amati's is probably a more central recording, Festetics
tending to avoid extremely brisk tempos.
The Amati's playing is, I think, impeccable. An extremely proficient
quartet. I don't find anything very distinctive about their sound,
although they certainly sound good -- just maybe a little anonymous.
Alternate recommendations: Tatrai, Nomos, Tokyo. The Tokyo account tends
toward nuance, detail, and vibrato; which may or may not strike you as
inappropriate in Haydn. The Tatrai performance is not one of their very
best and is perhaps a little unduly lacking in extroversion -- still,
it's full of richly characterized playing and their sound as usual is
wonderful. The Nomos recording holds one's attention pretty well. Its
avoidance of vibrato has caused some to say it is HIP-influenced; in any
case, not played on gut strings. An occasional feeling of mere
sight-reading.
The FAQ recording is OK, but I don't find it terribly scintillating in
any respect and I prefer all of the above.
The two Opus 50 quartets recorded by the Pro Arte are, I think, must-
listening.
SE.
simong...@googlemail.com
Thanks for your reply.
I'ts funny you mention the Tatrai, as I've been listening a lot to
their Op.20 over the past few weeks - trawling through the archives
revealed this to be 'good' Tatrai. I can only say I wholeheartedly
agree, what a sound they produce! So distinctive. I can't think of
another Haydn SQ recording (I own) that has made me appreciate the
composers work so much.
so enamored with the Op.20, I ordered a used copy of the Tatrai's Op.
17 this morning. Can see this becoming quite addictive...
Will have a look around for your other Op.50 suggestions...
Cheers,
Simon
Don Rice
The Dekány Quartet recorded all of the early quartets through
> the Op. 33 quartets and some of the later quartets.
I have owned the Vox lp set of the Dekány Quartet op 54-55 for more
years than I like to remember. I have listened repeatedly to the
recordings and have never felt engaged by them. There is a degree of
vibrato that sounds appropriate for Dvorak but not Haydn. That element
is part of the romanticized approach I hear in the recordings.
I agree with David about the Allegris and I do enjoy the FAQ though I
don't rate them quite as high as David does. I also enjoy the "middle"
Juilliard recording of op. 54. However none of these recordings is of
op. 50!
I have heard the Tokyo op. 50 and it is quite good but not at the level
of my definition of greatest Haydn quartet recordings. Among those I
would include some of the Schneider quartet recordings on lp for the
Haydn Society, many of the Pro Arte series available from Pristine
Audio, the Budapest op. 76 as well as the Allegris, Grillers, (and I'm
sure to David's dismay) the Apponyi op.33.
Don
to email me place a "1" between the "don" and the "rice"
Alan Cooper
news:45b2c237-788b-4ba4...@i72g2000hsd.googlegroups.
com:
> Hi Steve,
>
> Thanks for your reply.
>
> I'ts funny you mention the Tatrai, as I've been listening a lot
> to their Op.20 over the past few weeks - trawling through the
> archives revealed this to be 'good' Tatrai. I can only say I
> wholeheartedly agree, what a sound they produce! So distinctive.
> I can't think of another Haydn SQ recording (I own) that has
> made me appreciate the composers work so much.
>
> so enamored with the Op.20, I ordered a used copy of the
> Tatrai's Op. 17 this morning. Can see this becoming quite
> addictive...
Good choice: the best recordings in their set, imo, are opp. 17, 20, 76, and 77.
Their sound is uncanny, isn't it? Steve is more indulgent than I am towards their
later efforts. It's a shame that the Tatrai's superb recordings of works by
composers other than Haydn have not made it to CD, btw.
Do take Steve's advice concerning the Pro Arte, incidentally. You can sample them
at http://www.pristineclassical.com/LargeWorks/Chamber/Chamber-historic.html. If
you want to purchase one to try out, start with one of the later volumes, such as
vol. 7, which includes opp. op. 3/4, 50/6, 64/3, 74/1 in Andrew Rose's excellent
transfers (superior to Testament's). My guess is that you'll be addicted :-)
I agree with David Gable about many things, but not about that old Vox Box Haydn
Quartet series (from which I learned many of the quartets): I rarely found the
Dekany recordings to be more than run of the mill, although I did like Dekany
himself. The FAQ contributions to the set were better, but never good enough to
be a first choice, imo. I even preferred the Schneider Quartet at the time, as
slapdash as they were, because at least they generated some excitement.
AC
david...@aol.com
> I have owned the Vox lp set of the Dekány Quartet op 54-55 for more
> years than I like to remember. I have listened repeatedly to the
> recordings and have never felt engaged by them. There is a degree of
> vibrato that sounds appropriate for Dvorak but not Haydn. That element
> is part of the romanticized approach I hear in the recordings.
Sounds perfectly wonderful to me! Seriously, I only know the Dekány
through their recording of the op. 20, but, at least in the op. 20, I
don't hear anything remotely like an excess of rubato. Moreover, the
Dekány's basic approach to rhythm is as strict as virtually all of the
other quartets under discussion: no excess of rubato here. In short,
I would never describe their playing as "romanticized," let alone
excessively. I have no doubt that there are many more Puritanical
quartets -- starting with the JSQ in the op. 54 -- that have more
nearly approached a metronomic strictness and the avoidance of all
rubato in the last quarter century, as if that in and of itself were a
worthy goal . . . in contrast to the Dekány, which took a certain
Hungarian or "Mittel Europa" approach for granted and un-self-
consciously made their decisions within the context of that native
tongue.
> I agree with David about the Allegris and I do enjoy the FAQ though I
> don't rate them quite as high as David does. I also enjoy the "middle"
> Juilliard recording of op. 54.
I like the JSQ op. 54, too. Indeed, it strikes me as their best Haydn
on record, but with this Juilliard recording, alas, we are already
light years removed from the warmth and distinction of the Dekány (in
op. 20) or the joie de musique and sheer élan characteristic of the
Allegri (in op. 54). (The Allegri would probably still get my vote
for best Haydn quartet performances ever recorded.)
> I have heard the Tokyo op. 50 and it is quite good but not at the level
> of my definition of greatest Haydn quartet recordings.
I couldn't agree more. For all of the membership's technical
perfection and refinement, these performances ultimately wear a very
stiff collar, and the quartet's much vaunted (at least by some of us
around here) subtlety of nuance is kept on a very short leash.
Indeed, I'm genuinely puzzled as to why the Tokyo's op. 50 receives
Mr. Emerson's blessings while he dismisses the FAQ's performances out
of hand. I'm listening to the Adagio from the C major quartet, op.
50, no. 2, with the FAQ right now, and I can't imagine playing any
more moving or expressive.
> Among those I
> would include some of the Schneider quartet recordings on lp for the
> Haydn Society, many of the Pro Arte series available from Pristine
> Audio, the Budapest op. 76 as well as the Allegris, Grillers, (and I'm
> sure to David's dismay) the Apponyi op.33.
It's been years since I heard the Pro Arte, but I share Don's
enthusiasm for all of the other performances listed here save, as
predicted, the Apponyi's. Talk about a mannered and self-conscious
approach to "interpretation"! Assuming you can listen through the
sour sound.
-david gable
simong...@googlemail.com
Pristine Audio/Pro Arte series. The quartets seem to be available in a
variety of formats, whilst Op.20/2 'Sun' is available as a free
download at present -
http://www.pristineclassical.com/LargeWorks/Chamber/HaydnQuartetSociety.php
Cheers,
Simon
Don Rice
> On Dec 28, 6:58 pm, Don Rice wrote:
>
>> I have owned the Vox lp set of the Dekány Quartet op 54-55 for more
>> years than I like to remember. I have listened repeatedly to the
>> recordings and have never felt engaged by them. There is a degree of
>> vibrato that sounds appropriate for Dvorak but not Haydn. That element
>> is part of the romanticized approach I hear in the recordings.
>
> Sounds perfectly wonderful to me! Seriously, I only know the Dekány
> through their recording of the op. 20, but, at least in the op. 20, I
> don't hear anything remotely like an excess of rubato. Moreover, the
> Dekány's basic approach to rhythm is as strict as virtually all of the
> other quartets under discussion: no excess of rubato here. In short,
> I would never describe their playing as "romanticized," let alone
> excessively. I have no doubt that there are many more Puritanical
> quartets -- starting with the JSQ in the op. 54 -- that have more
> nearly approached a metronomic strictness and the avoidance of all
> rubato in the last quarter century, as if that in and of itself were a
> worthy goal . . . in contrast to the Dekány, which took a certain
> Hungarian or "Mittel Europa" approach for granted and un-self-
> consciously made their decisions within the context of that native
> tongue.
> -david gable
I remind you that I am referring to op. 54-55 not op. 20 (which I
haven't heard.) I've listened again to a bit of op. 54 #1 and the
smooth legato phrasing (as opposed to detaché in many spots), gentle
attacks, wider vibrato and diminished dynamic range they use all are
rather opposed to my idea of enjoyable Haydn quartet playing. The
contrast between the Juilliards/Allegris playing the same music couldn't
be more sharply etched. I will guess that the "Mittel Europa" approach
applies to some degree to the Pro Arte and Allegri quartets so I'm not
sure that either rubato or vibrato is my chief objection. Nevertheless,
the Dekány's recordings are not generally available in any form so a
potential purchaser of these works must look to other quartets.
Don
david...@aol.com
> I remind you that I am referring to op. 54-55 not op. 20 (which I
> haven't heard.)
Yes, I know. I'm making the assumption, not necessarily warranted,
that the Dekány Quartet's recordings of op. 20 and op. 54-55 are cut
from substantially similar cloth. Since I don't hear what I'd
characterize as an excessively wide vibrato, a diminished dynamic
range, or excessively legato phrasing in their op. 20, and since I
normally admire the sorts of performances Don admires, there is some
possibility that their performances of op. 54-55 are different from
their performances of op. 20. There's certainly a world of difference
between the Tátrai's recordings of op. 33 and op. 76.
In order to gather evidence, I'm listening to the Dekány's recording
of op. 20, no. 1, right now. In the lyrical slow movement of no. 1
Dekány himself certainly uses a more ample vibrato in conjunction with
a warm legato phrasing than results from his détaché projection of the
principal themes of the scherzo before it and the Finale after it.
Moreover, this kind of distinction is audible in detail after detail
and not just between movements. For example, in the scherzo Dekány
resorts to contrasting styles of articulation utterly responsive to
the contrasting characters in the music itself, one more détaché, one
more legato. In the Finale, the principal contrast is between a
détaché projection and a very clean, bright, virtually vibrato-less
legato, a legato very different in character from the warm singing
legato projected with more vibrato that he uses in the slow movement.
Even in the slow movement, the turn at the final cadence is projected
more crisply in articulation of the cadence. And so it goes. In
short, while I can't speak of the op. 54-55, the op. 20 simply cannot
accurately be characterized as exhibiting an unremitting and
excessively smooth legato resulting in a "gentle" articulation devoid
of all crispness. In fact, the quartet seems to have at its disposal
a whole repertory of styles of articulation.
As usual, this sort of discussion would benefit enormously from
examples in sound, but I don't experience any absence of backbone in
the underlying rhythmic structure of any of the movements from op. 20,
which is something that, in fact, drives me nuts. I am, after all, a
big fan of the Juilliard Quartet. Then again, much as I like them,
the Juilliard's performances of the Op.54 quartets strike me as more
monochromatic and less nuanced than the Dekány's performances of the
op. 20, even if they are a little crisper, more monomaniacally driven.
-david gable
Don Rice
Your description sounds positively wonderful! I can only suspect that
something happened between op. 20 and op. 54-55. I'll see if I can post
an example.
Don
Don Rice
OK, see if you can download this zipfile which contains the Vox Dekany
op.54 #3, declicked. It is in fairly good mp3 format, good enough to
judge the performance. It's public so anyone who can get there can
download as well.
http://www.mediafire.com/?ayd4twwnxz0
I also sent you privately a link to download another Haydn quartet
(op.17 #1) played by the Schneider Quartet. This is what I consider to
be great Haydn quartet performance practice.
Don
To email me put a "1" between the "don" and the "rice"