S. Richter required recordings
Paul Ilechko
However, from the recordings I've heard, there seems to be quite a wide
variety in the quality level. So, what Richter discs do you regard as
absolutely essential (and which ones should be left in the second hand
store)?
thx, Paul.
Dan Koren
news:400F02E1...@patmedia.net...
>
> Sviatoslav Richter seems to be very highly
> regarded on this n.g.
Not only here ;-)
> However, from the recordings I've heard,
> there seems to be quite a wide variety
> in the quality level. So, what Richter
> discs do you regard as absolutely
> essential
Most everything up to 1970.
> (and which ones should be left in the
> second hand store)?
Most everything after 1970.
There are (as usual) exceptions to both
rules.
dk
Matt
The Richter in Prague set is a good place to start: mostly acceptable sound
(sound is seldom ideal with Richter) which gives a good overview of a fair
proportion of his immense repetoire. Most of it is excellent.
If you're not looking to invest a lot of money, check out some of the Regis
re-releases of items originally on Olympia. Most of these were recorded in
the 70s (not quite his prime but close enough) and have better than
average sound for Richter. I would start with the Rachamninoff
Etudes-tableaux/Preludes or the Beethoven Sonatas disc (3, 4, 27). Some of
these are dirt cheap at Berkshire.
BBC Legends has also released some Richter discs in above average sound.
My favorite is the Debussy/Chopin double disc which has an astonishing
Preludes Book II (to my ears anyway).
The Richter Rediscovered concert is very good pianistically with very good
sound (if a little dry), which is a bit of a rarity in the Richter
discography. This may not be the ultimate Richter performance but it would
be the concert of a lifetime for many "name" pianists.
If sound is not an issue, you can try to locate some of the 10 disc
Melodiya set which is probably more essential than the Praga set but in
fairly grim sound. Some of these are going to be tough to find, however.
RBCmp3.com still has a handful as does Musica Bona. Individual issues also
regularly turn up on E-Bay. I would start with the Beethoven or Scriabin
discs here.
Music & Arts released several important Richter CD's in the late 90s, but
these are rarer than hens' teeth (at least the most desirable ones).
On the major labels, the Philips Liszt Concertos and the DG Prokofiev
Concerto 5 with Sonata 8 are both excellent and well-recorded.
My general rule of thumb with Richter is late 50s and 60s are preferable to
70s and early 80s. Mid to late 80s and 90s are not (with the possible
exception of his Haydn) a good place to start. Live is generally much
better than studio. He is excellent in almost anything except (of course,
only in my opinion) Chopin and Mozart. His Schubert is a love/hate kind of
thing (I'm mostly indifferent to it, but others swear by it). He is
particularly fine in the Russian composers, Beethoven, and the
Impressionists.
Finally, this isn't meant to be exhaustive, and there are others here with
much larger Richter collections than I.
Regards,
Matt
Lenya Ryzhik
Others will say much more but one should not forget many of his marvelous
chamber recordings. Most of these are post dk-defined boundary of 1970 but
his collaborations with Kagan in Mozart and Beethoven sonatas, Oistrakh,
DFD, Schreier and Borodin quartet are almost uniformly marvelous. His
Haydn recordings from the eighties are another gem from the late period.
Lenya
John Wiser
>
> Lenya
>
To which I will add:
http://www.parnassusrecords.com/pacd96001_2.htm
I do this as shouldn't, because I did much of the packaging
production work on the first three issues. You figure out how
much salt to dose my recommendation with. BTW, DK's temporal
boundaries are arbitrary and meaningless, IMO. You are not too
likely to find the Parnassus CDs in second-hand stores....
--
John Wiser
cee...@frontiernet.not
>
>
>
>
Steve Molino
You realize that you will wind up with the complete discography of Richter
by asking that here, but I will put in my $.02 and say that, while I rank so
much of his work extremely high, I put his Prokofiev, Shostakovich, and
Schumann at the top of the heap. So, for a starter kit, I would say get the
DG Originals discs of his Prokofiev and Schumann, and then try to get hold
of his recordings of Shostakovich Preludes & Fugues (on Philips, Ultraphon,
and a few other labels).
Dan Koren
news:01c3e07d$23288de0$4122d2d1@candacew...
>
> I do this as shouldn't, because I did much of the packaging
> production work on the first three issues. You figure out how
> much salt to dose my recommendation with. BTW, DK's temporal
> boundaries are arbitrary and meaningless, IMO. You are not too
> likely to find the Parnassus CDs in second-hand stores....
>
dk's "arbitrary and meaningless" time boundaries
might oversimplify things a little, but are good
practical rules of thumb -- short of going into
an exhaustive, detailed analysis of Richter's
recordings.
Unfortunately, I don't have time for that
before the end of this ski season.
dk
jszostaksr
Piano Concerto with von Karajan...my God when I first saw it released in a
local record store I grabbed it...paid premium price...DGG label with a very
think sleeve...got home...played it and after the initial shock I had to
check to see if for some reason the speed on my turntable had been turned to
16rpm...it hadn't....!!!!!
If you need a good shock...or a good laugh and can afford to throw some
money away...if you can find it...buy that recording. It was as if they
were holding an "Any you can play...I can play slower" contest...really
abysmal...and, I believe it was the Berlin Philharmonic or Vienna
Philharmonic at that.
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
"Paul Ilechko" <pile...@patmedia.net> wrote in message
news:400F02E1...@patmedia.net...
Dan Koren
Here is the shortest list of 'must have'
Richter recordings (IMHO of course):
Bach Concerto for Piano No. 1 in d:
with Vaclav Talich and the Czech
Philharmonic on Supraphon 111906
or 111183 or Melodram MEL-18029;
or with Kurt Sanderling and USSR
State Symphony on Melodiya/Eurodisc
GD-69081 or Melodiya/JVC VICC-2136.
Bach WTC Book I on Chant du Monde
LDC 278525/6 or Melodiya/JVC VDC-5001/2
or JVC VICC-40014/5.
Bach WTC Book II on Chant du Monde
LDC 278-528/9 or Melodiya/JVC VDC-5003/4
or JVC VICC-40016/7.
Brahms Piano Concerto 2: with Evgeny
Mravinsky and Leningrad Philharmonic
on Russian Disc RD CD-11158 or King
Records KICC-6501.
Brahms Quintet for Piano: with Borodin
Quartet Melodiya/JVC VICC-2123.
Chopin Ballades: Praga PR 254 060
(plus other Chopin works).
Chopin Scherzi: DoReMi DHR-7724.
Debussy Estampes: JDG POCG-2134.
Debussy Preludes Book 2: Pyramid 13507.
Franck Sonata: Melodiya/JVC VICC-2013
or VDC-1112 or Mobile Fidelity MFCD 909
or Vox CDX 5120.
Franck Prelude, Chorale & Fugue:
Philips 442459 or 454166 or 454171.
Liszt Piano Concerti: Philips 412006
or 434163 or 446200 or 454545 or 462176
or 464710.
Liszt Transcendental Etudes (7):
Bianco e Nero BN 2433/2 (plus
other works).
Liszt Valses Oubliées (2): Philips
420774 or 454166 or 454167 or 456946
(plus other works).
Mozart Concerto KV466: DG 429918
or 453804 or 459173.
Mozart Sonatas for 2 Pianists:
Decca 466821.
Mozart-Grieg Sonatas: with Elisabeth
Leonskaja on Teldec 90825.
Mussorgsky Pictures: Philips 420774 or
454166 or 454167 or 456946 or 464734.
Prokofiev Sonata 6: RCA 63844.
Prokofiev Sonata 7: Philips 456946.
Prokofiev Sonata 8: DG 423573
or 447355 or 449744.
Rachmaninov 2nd Piano Concerto: with
Stanislaw Wislocki, Warsaw Philharmonic
on DG 415119 or 429918 or 447420 or 469178;
or with Sanderling, Leningrad Philharmonic
on Melodiya/JVC VICC-2011 or Melodiya/Eurodisc
GD 69049 or Revelation RV 10064 or Vogue VG 651031.
Schumann Bunte Blätter: Olympia OCD
or Melodiya/JVC VDC-1027.
Schumann Fantasie: EMI CMS7 64429
or 64625 or EMI/Toshiba TOCE-6636
or TOCE-3083 or TOCE-7733.
Schumann Fantasiestücke: Philips
456952 or DG 435751 or 457082 or
459018.
Schumann Faschingsschwank aus Wien:
EMI CMS7 64429 or CZS7 67197 or
EMI/Toshiba TOCE-3082.
Schumann Humoreske: Monitor MCD 72022
or Melodiya JVC VICC-2120.
Schumann Waldszenen: Philips 456952
or DG 435751 or 447440 or 459018.
Schubert Sonata D664: EMI CMS7 64429
or CZS7 67197 or EMI/Toshiba TOCE-6619
or TOCE-3144.
Schubert Sonata D840: Monitor MCD 72057.
Schubert Sonata D845: Monitor MCD 72027.
Schubert Sonata D850: Monitor MCD 72027.
Schubert Sonata D858: Music & Arts CD-957.
Scriabin Sonata 5: DG 423573 or 447355.
Tchaikovsky Concerto for Piano no. 1:
with Karel Ancerl and Czech Philharmonic
on Supraphon 110268 or 111944 or SUA 0546;
or with Mravinsky and Leningrad Philharmonic
on Melodiya 17083 or Philips 464381 or Chant
du Monde LDC 278848.
Tchaikovsky Grand Sonata: Melodiya
SUCD 1000545 or Melodiya/BMG 29469.
For convenience reasons I have listed only
performances available on CD's. This omits
the 5 double LP's of the 1960 Carnegie Hall
recitals, which no one with the remotest
interest in piano music can afford to miss.
Hope this helps. Have your credit cards ready!
dk
Shayan
For instance, try his D.958 and 960 on Olympia. I think it is on
Regis now for very cheap - this is performing non-pareil.
I really really like his Well-tempered klavier on RCA.
Shayan.
Lenya Ryzhik <ryz...@math.uchicago.edu> wrote in message news:<Pine.LNX.4.44.040121...@otepaa.uchicago.edu>...
Michael Lehrman
1. Praga 15-disk set.
2. Olympia 10-disk set (it is from the 1970s, but nevertheless ...).
Wait until Regis reissues them all and get it cheap.
3. Well Tempered Clavier (RCA, also after 1970).
4. Two RCA disks from 1960 with Brahms 2nd and Beethoven's 1st. Latest
release has both in one package.
5. Enigma video.
ML
Vadim Batitsky
that there are some true gems in that period, marked by an almost
Platonic, detached beauty. To my mind, some of these late recordings
made between early 80s and 90s (all live) are
Bach French Suite #2 (Philips)
Mozart Piano Sonata K545 (Philips)
Beethoven Sonatas #19, 30-32 (Philips)
Haydn Sonatas (Decca)
Mozart Violin Sonatas K378,379 (Melodya, 1982, Pushkin Museum)
Bach Piano concerti (Teldec, w/Yuri Bashmet conducting)
For a potentially surreal experience, I'd also suggest his Schubert
sonatas 15, 18 (Philips) and 21 (Praga). Over the years, I keep
oscillating between hating them one year and loving them the next,
always with equal passion. And my perspective on these recordings may
never attain equillibrium. I really can't think of other recordings
that would prove so elusive to definitive assessment of their merits
over such a long period of time.
Vadim.
Sonarrat
on 1/21/04 6:15 PM:
<snip>
No live recordings? He was at his best on stage, IMO. I think any of his
live performances from 1980 on are indispensible: I was just listening to
his 1989 Vienna recital which is comprised entirely of 20th century music.
By far, the best Szymanowski Metopes on record, even though it is
incomplete.
-Sonarrat.
Rajeev Aloysius
Brahms Piano Concerto no 2 Chicago SO/Leinsdorf
Liszt Piano Concertos LSO/Kondrashin
Beethoven Cello Sonatas with Rostropovich
Schumann Piano Quintet with the Borodin Quartet
Wolf: Goethe Leider with DFD
Scriabin: Piano Sonata no 6
Mussorgsky: Pictures at an Exhibition (live in Sofia)
Almost anything by Rachmaninoff that he recorded
Can anyone tell me whether he was Rich-ter or Rick-ter?
Rajeev Aloysius
john grant
"Dan Koren" <dank...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:400f3230$1...@news.meer.net...
Perhaps, I think, the only recording he made of it. It's the best Rach 1
I've ever heard, although the sound quality is not great.
JG
Lenya Ryzhik
On 21 Jan 2004, Rajeev Aloysius wrote:
> Paul Ilechko <pile...@patmedia.net> wrote in message news:<400F02E1...@patmedia.net>...
> > Sviatoslav Richter seems to be very highly regarded on this n.g.
>
> Brahms Piano Concerto no 2 Chicago SO/Leinsdorf
> Liszt Piano Concertos LSO/Kondrashin
> Beethoven Cello Sonatas with Rostropovich
No!! IMHO this is one of his only two unsuccessful chamber
recordings that I know.
> Schumann Piano Quintet with the Borodin Quartet
> Wolf: Goethe Leider with DFD
> Scriabin: Piano Sonata no 6
> Mussorgsky: Pictures at an Exhibition (live in Sofia)
> Almost anything by Rachmaninoff that he recorded
>
> Can anyone tell me whether he was Rich-ter or Rick-ter?
>
Richter as in Bach, Mach, etc.
Lenya
> Rajeev Aloysius
>
Matthew燘. Tepper
letters to be typed in news:01c3e07d$23288de0$4122d2d1@candacew:
It has happened.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
War is Peace. ** Freedom is Slavery. ** It's all Napster's fault!
Matthew燘. Tepper
following letters to be typed in news:g7GPb.97554$Rc4.591735@attbi_s54:
> I'll tell you what NOT to get...Richter's recording of the Tchaikovsky
> 1st Piano Concerto with von Karajan...my God when I first saw it
> released in a local record store I grabbed it...paid premium price...DGG
> label with a very think sleeve...got home...played it and after the
> initial shock I had to check to see if for some reason the speed on my
> turntable had been turned to 16rpm...it hadn't....!!!!!
>
> If you need a good shock...or a good laugh and can afford to throw some
> money away...if you can find it...buy that recording. It was as if they
> were holding an "Any you can play...I can play slower" contest...really
> abysmal...and, I believe it was the Berlin Philharmonic or Vienna
> Philharmonic at that.
Nope; the Vienna *Symphony* Orchestra.
Matthew燘. Tepper
following letters to be typed in
> On 21 Jan 2004, Rajeev Aloysius wrote:
>
>> Beethoven Cello Sonatas with Rostropovich
>
> No!! IMHO this is one of his only two unsuccessful chamber recordings
> that I know.
I have this near the top of the "to be listened to soon" pile, so I'll see
what I think; it's been many years since I bought, and heard, the LPs.
Matthew燘. Tepper
letters to be typed in news:31HPb.15516$U77.1...@news20.bellglobal.com:
> "Dan Koren" <dank...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:400f3230$1...@news.meer.net...
>>
>> Franck Sonata: Melodiya/JVC VICC-2013 or VDC-1112 or Mobile Fidelity
>> MFCD 909 or Vox CDX 5120.
Too bad the schlemiel who plays the violin doesn't deserve to be named.
(Yes, I know you're only quoting DK.)
Victor Gan
> Lenya Ryzhik <ryz...@math.uchicago.edu> appears to have caused the
> following letters to be typed in
> news:Pine.LNX.4.44.040121...@otepaa.uchicago.edu:
>
> > On 21 Jan 2004, Rajeev Aloysius wrote:
> >
> >> Beethoven Cello Sonatas with Rostropovich
> >
> > No!! IMHO this is one of his only two unsuccessful chamber recordings
> > that I know.
>
> I have this near the top of the "to be listened to soon" pile, so I'll see
> what I think; it's been many years since I bought, and heard, the LPs.
If it's the Philips recordings that are referred to, I have to agree
that they never took off. His live recital from Usher Hall, Edinburgh
CDed on Doremi and DVDed on EMI's classic archive series, I think
works much better.
VG
Matthew燘. Tepper
following letters to be typed in
"His"? "Their," I should say.
Dan Koren
news:31HPb.15516$U77.1...@news20.bellglobal.com...
>
> "Dan Koren" <dank...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:400f3230$1...@news.meer.net...
> >
> > Here is the shortest list of 'must have'
> > Richter recordings (IMHO of course):
> >
>
> I have one addition: the early Rach 1
> recording on Melodia, originally. Perhaps,
> I think, the only recording he made of it.
> It's the best Rach 1 I've ever heard,
> although the sound quality is not great.
>
I don't disagree.
However, notice that I said "the shortest
list" and that I limited it to CD's. Rach1
is not exactly everybody's cup of tea, and
I don't know if the recording is available
on CD.
dk
Dan Koren
"Matthew B. Tepper" <oy兀earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:Xns9477C94C478...@207.217.77.202...
> "john grant" <dohg...@sympatico.ca> appears to have caused the following
> letters to be typed in news:31HPb.15516$U77.1...@news20.bellglobal.com:
>
> > "Dan Koren" <dank...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:400f3230$1...@news.meer.net...
> >>
> >> Franck Sonata: Melodiya/JVC VICC-2013
> >> or VDC-1112 or Mobile Fidelity MFCD
> >> 909 or Vox CDX 5120.
>
> Too bad the schlemiel who plays the violin
> doesn't deserve to be named. (Yes, I know
> you're only quoting DK.)
>
You're reading too much between the lines.
I didn't have time for details -- you can
figure those out.
dk
Dan Koren
"Lenya Ryzhik" <ryz...@math.uchicago.edu> wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.4.44.040121...@otepaa.uchicago.edu...
>
>
> > Can anyone tell me whether he was Rich-ter or Rick-ter?
Depends which part of India one is from ;-)
> Richter as in Bach, Mach, etc.
Are you sure it wasn't Mack? ;-)
dk
Dan Koren
news:28a37761.04012...@posting.google.com...
> Paul Ilechko <pile...@patmedia.net> wrote in message
news:<400F02E1...@patmedia.net>...
> > Sviatoslav Richter seems to be very highly regarded on this n.g.
>
> Brahms Piano Concerto no 2 Chicago SO/Leinsdorf
The version with Mravinsky is better.
> Liszt Piano Concertos LSO/Kondrashin
> Beethoven Cello Sonatas with Rostropovich
Not essential recordings that define
one of the greatest pianists ever.
> Schumann Piano Quintet with the Borodin Quartet
Not definitive, and not nearly as good
as his Brahms and Franck Quintets.
> Wolf: Goethe Leider with DFD
Are you crazy?
> Scriabin: Piano Sonata no 6
The 5th is way better.
> Mussorgsky: Pictures at an Exhibition (live in Sofia)
That was on my list, you didn't
pay attention.
> Almost anything by Rachmaninoff that he recorded
Subject to age limitations.
> Can anyone tell me whether he was Rich-ter or Rick-ter?
Or Rish-ter?
dk
EG
the "what not to get of Richter's recordings" would be a more useful, shorter
thread.
Among these I'd recommend to avoid the double DG cd with blue cover.
I don't recall the contents off the top of my head, but I recall it being uneven.
"jszostaksr" <jszostak...@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<g7GPb.97554$Rc4.591735@attbi_s54>...
Andy Evans
except the composer that played him better. Then Liszt - some astonishing
performances. And Rachmaninov. Next to that probably his concerto readings
(including K466). For instance I love all his Bach concertos - raw energy -
though I can't listen to his 48. I wouldn't put his Scriabin on the same level
as Horowitz, Feinberg or Sofronitsky. Debussy - some nice things like the
Preludes, and Chopin especially the 4th Scherzo which is a little miracle.
Schubert - not maybe the first I would listen to but certainly one of the best.
Schumann likewise.
=== Andy Evans ===
Visit our Website:- http://www.artsandmedia.com
Audio, music and health pages and interesting links.
Steve Molino
> Lenya Ryzhik <ryz...@math.uchicago.edu> appears to have caused the
> following letters to be typed in
> news:Pine.LNX.4.44.040121...@otepaa.uchicago.edu:
>
> > On 21 Jan 2004, Rajeev Aloysius wrote:
> >
> >> Beethoven Cello Sonatas with Rostropovich
> >
> > No!! IMHO this is one of his only two unsuccessful chamber recordings
> > that I know.
>
> I have this near the top of the "to be listened to soon" pile, so I'll see
> what I think; it's been many years since I bought, and heard, the LPs.
>
> --
I used to like it a lot more than I do now. I prefer a lighter approach to
these works now, and Tortelier/Heidsieck is my current favorite. In a few
years, who knows? I may be back to prefer the darker hues of
Richter/Rostropovich.
Steve Molino
>
> > Scriabin: Piano Sonata no 6
>
> The 5th is way better.
>
And I think the 5th on Praga is superior to the DG. The Praga performance
absolutely explodes into being.
Steve Molino
news:5ba1c693.04012...@posting.google.com...
> I am one who thinks his Schubert is definitive.
>
> For instance, try his D.958 and 960 on Olympia. I think it is on
> Regis now for very cheap - this is performing non-pareil.
>
> I really really like his Well-tempered klavier on RCA.
>
> Shayan.
>
I like his Schubert too, but not the Olympia stuff. For a sizzling D958,
the version from 1958 on M&A is the one to have. I don't care for any of
his D960s.
His WTC has been remastered yet again by BMG. I saw it while browsing the
Japanese Amazon site. This is about the 4th incarnation for this set.
Paul Ilechko
> I am one who thinks his Schubert is definitive.
>
> For instance, try his D.958 and 960 on Olympia. I think it is on
> Regis now for very cheap - this is performing non-pareil.
I already have those, as well as the Rach Etudes Tableaux and Preludes
on the same label that someone else mentioned, got them from Berkshire.
I also have the Schubert disc with D575, 625, and Moments Musicaux 1,3 &
6. I'm less impressed by this CD than I am by the later sonatas.
Simon Roberts
>
>Sviatoslav Richter seems to be very highly regarded on this n.g.
>However, from the recordings I've heard, there seems to be quite a wide
>variety in the quality level. So, what Richter discs do you regard as
>absolutely essential (and which ones should be left in the second hand
>store)?
Depends on your taste. His earlier performances tend to be tauter, faster, more
incisive, often incredibly intense, his later ones more relaxed/warmer/blander
(depending on the piece and your reaction to what he does with it). This can
readily be perceived by comparing different performances of the same piece -
e.g. his thrilling Chopin scherzo 1 from the late 40s (? I don't have it before
me) on Preiser vs his tame performance on Olympia. I almost invariably prefer
the earlier ones where there's a choice. Among his later recordings, highlights
include the Mozart violin sonatas with Kagan on Live Classics. The earlyish
recording of his I probably like the least is his Mozart 466 on DG, superbly
played (but not by the wretchedly conducted orchestra) but to these ears
completely wrong-headed interpretatively, crawling along at what seems like
half-speed.
Simon
Simon Roberts
says...
>
>Paul Ilechko <pile...@patmedia.net> wrote in message
>news:<400F02E1...@patmedia.net>...
>> Sviatoslav Richter seems to be very highly regarded on this n.g.
>
>Brahms Piano Concerto no 2 Chicago SO/Leinsdorf
See if you can find the live one with Kondrashin from a decade earlier, released
by Multisonic (and perhaps others).
Simon
Matthew燘. Tepper
following letters to be typed in news:H0QPb.1267$6g7.771943
@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net:
Given recent revelations about Praga, can one be sure the Richter
performances on that label are the ones they claim they are?
Matthew燘. Tepper
@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net:
Yes, but how many of those have been issued in the USA?
Steve Molino
> "Steve Molino" <s_molin...@hotmail.com> appears to have caused the
> following letters to be typed in news:H0QPb.1267$6g7.771943
> @news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net:
>
> > "Dan Koren" <dank...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:400f87b6$1...@news.meer.net...
> >>
> >> > Scriabin: Piano Sonata no 6
> >>
> >> The 5th is way better.
> >>
> >
> > And I think the 5th on Praga is superior to the DG. The Praga
> > performance absolutely explodes into being.
>
> Given recent revelations about Praga, can one be sure the Richter
> performances on that label are the ones they claim they are?
>
> --
I don't think that affected the Richter set, but I could be wrong. Either
way, this specific performance is certainly different from either the DG or
M&A recording of the Scriabin 5th.
Steve Molino
> "Steve Molino" <s_molin...@hotmail.com> appears to have caused the
> following letters to be typed in news:yYPPb.1265$6g7.761799
> @news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net:
>
> > "Shayan" <s_sh...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:5ba1c693.04012...@posting.google.com...
> >> I am one who thinks his Schubert is definitive.
> >>
> >> For instance, try his D.958 and 960 on Olympia. I think it is on
> >> Regis now for very cheap - this is performing non-pareil.
> >>
> >> I really really like his Well-tempered klavier on RCA.
> >>
> >> Shayan.
> >>
> >
> > I like his Schubert too, but not the Olympia stuff. For a sizzling
D958,
> > the version from 1958 on M&A is the one to have. I don't care for any
of
> > his D960s.
> >
> > His WTC has been remastered yet again by BMG. I saw it while browsing
> > the Japanese Amazon site. This is about the 4th incarnation for this
> > set.
>
> Yes, but how many of those have been issued in the USA?
>
> --
I think only the crappy RCA gold seal version. But, on the bright side,
it's nice to have some consistency in the world, isn't it?
Marcus Maroney
> Although many replies discount Richter's late-life recordings, I think
> that there are some true gems in that period, marked by an almost
> Platonic, detached beauty. To my mind, some of these late recordings
> made between early 80s and 90s (all live) are
>
> Bach French Suite #2 (Philips)
> Mozart Piano Sonata K545 (Philips)
> Beethoven Sonatas #19, 30-32 (Philips)
> Haydn Sonatas (Decca)
> Mozart Violin Sonatas K378,379 (Melodya, 1982, Pushkin Museum)
> Bach Piano concerti (Teldec, w/Yuri Bashmet conducting)
I'd like to add a recommendation for the Brahms Sonatas 1 & 2 on
Decca. The first is especially well-performed. I'm not a big fan of
the second as a piece...
Cheers,
Marcus Maroney
marcus dot maroney at yale dot edu
Marcus Maroney
> > Mussorgsky: Pictures at an Exhibition (live in Sofia)
>
> That was on my list, you didn't
> pay attention.
I think you're the only person on this ng who gets upset when someone
recommends the same recording you do...
MM
Sol L. Siegel
Fantasy on EMI?
I'll second previous choices that have been mentioned, subject
to availability:
His selection of 13 Rach preludes and other pieces (on Regis these
days?)
Almost anything by Schumann.
Almost anything else by Schubert, but especially the D. 845
A minor Sonata (good luck finding it).
Liszt concerti on Philips. (The Solo remastering is far
superior to prior ones; haven't heard the new Philips 50 version.)
His EMI Beethoven sonatas (1, 7 & 17).
Brahms PC2 w. Leinsdorf.
Beethoven PC1 w. Munch.
-Sol Siegel, Philadelphia, PA
--------------------
"I really liked it. Even the music was good." - Yogi Berra, after seeing
"Tosca"
--------------------
(Remove "exitspam" from the end of my e-mail address to respond.)
john grant
First heard his Rach 1 on a Monitor LP. Found a CD reissue on Revelation
(RV10064, Kurt Sanderling). Also includes Rach 2 and some Etudes Tableaux.
Jg
>
>
Dan Koren
They're not *ESSENTIAL*.
ESSENTIAL means unique, definitive, indispensable.
It means the works themselves must be masterpieces
and the performance spellbinding. I did not set out
to make a list of every good Richter performance on
record, and the Brahms Sonatas 1/2 even in Richter's
hands are far from being indispensable masterpieces.
Do you even understand what it means to *FOCUS*?
dk
"Marcus Maroney" <newhav...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:75e776be.04012...@posting.google.com...
bal...@australia.edu
disc of:
Fantasy in C Op 17
Fassingsschwank aus Wien
Papillons.
He also does good work with the Etudes Symphoniques - I like the BBC
Legends disc of this. It also has a Haydn sonata, LvB Op 22 and all
the Rachmaninov Preludes and Etudes Tableaux that were in his
repertoire.
Also, the EMI GROC disc of the Dvorak PC and the Wanderer Fantasy is
not to be missed.
Of his LvB Sonatas you have to hear his Appassionata - I like his
Moscow 1958 recording best - it's on Melodiya. The other sonatas he
did really well were the Tempest, Op 26, Op 31/3 and the Op 101.
For Schubert, not mentioned is his Tokyo recital of D664 and D 784.
It's on Olympia but I believe Regis has done a cover of this.
Cheers
Baldric
Dan Koren
Indeed, that shows total indiference to the
principle of least effort. I hope you're not
studying physics by any chance -- or are you?
dk
bal...@australia.edu
> Here is the shortest list of 'must have'
> Richter recordings (IMHO of course):
No Beethoven?
Cheers
Baldric
Gerrit Stolte
Of course, but most of the time he will forget about his prior
recommendation and try to tell you to get some new ears ... figure
Gerrit
Dan Koren
news:afe35cfd.04012...@posting.google.com...
The Beethoven is not *ESSENTIAL*.
dk
Henk van Tuijl
"Dan Koren" <dank...@yahoo.com> schreef in bericht
news:401044c9$1...@news.meer.net...
only essential interpretations by
Richter, followed immediately by Bach
- IMHO, if course.
Henk
John Wiser
> "Dan Koren" <dan koren, yahoo> wrote:
>
> > > Mussorgsky: Pictures at an Exhibition (live in Sofia)
> >
> > That was on my list, you didn't
> > pay attention.
>
> I think you're the only person on this ng who gets upset when someone
> recommends the same recording you do...
>
because it means two people are wrong...
[:>ţ]
--
John Wiser
cee...@frontiernet.not
Dan Koren
"Henk van Tuijl" <hvt...@xs4all.nl> wrote in message
news:4010469f$0$323$e4fe...@news.xs4all.nl...
>
> "Dan Koren" <dank...@yahoo.com> schreef in bericht
> news:401044c9$1...@news.meer.net...
> > <bal...@australia.edu> wrote in message
> > news:afe35cfd.04012...@posting.google.com...
> > > "Dan Koren" <dank...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:<400f3230$1...@news.meer.net>...
> > > > Here is the shortest list of 'must have'
> > > > Richter recordings (IMHO of course):
> > >
> > > No Beethoven?
> >
> > The Beethoven is not *ESSENTIAL*.
>
> only essential interpretations by
> Richter, followed immediately by Bach
a) The music is not essential, therefore
neither can be any performances of it.
b) I thought you specialized in collecting
"Ashkenazy plays in spielhosen" recordings.
dk
Paul Ilechko
>>>
>>>The Beethoven is not *ESSENTIAL*.
>>
>>The Beethoven interpretations are the
>>only essential interpretations by
>>Richter, followed immediately by Bach
>
>
>
> a) The music is not essential, therefore
> neither can be any performances of it.
Well, as the OP all I can say is that, IMHO, Beethoven and Bach are
*the* most essential composers ;-)
Closely (but not too closely) followed by Haydn, Shostakovich, Schubert,
Chopin, Brahms, Stravinsky, Mozart, Mahler ...
Bob Lombard
wrote:
>
>"Henk van Tuijl" <hvt...@xs4all.nl> wrote in message
>news:4010469f$0$323$e4fe...@news.xs4all.nl...
>>
>> The Beethoven interpretations are the
>> only essential interpretations by
>> Richter, followed immediately by Bach
>
>
>a) The music is not essential, therefore
> neither can be any performances of it.
>
>b) I thought you specialized in collecting
> "Ashkenazy plays in spielhosen" recordings.
>
>dk
>
The early sonatas are essential intellectually. The late sonatas are
essential spiritually. In some cases Richter presents them adequately.
bl
Andy Evans
how much I enjoy the Eb and the C. I may prefer Horowitz in Eb, but Richter
certainly plays the hell out of these sonatas.
=== Andy Evans ===
Visit our Website:- http://www.artsandmedia.com
Audio, music and health pages and interesting links.
Dan Koren
"Paul Ilechko" <pile...@patmedia.net> wrote in message
news:4010654F...@patmedia.net...
> Dan Koren wrote:
>
> >>>
> >>>The Beethoven is not *ESSENTIAL*.
> >>
> >>The Beethoven interpretations are the
> >>only essential interpretations by
> >>Richter, followed immediately by Bach
> >
> >
> >
> > a) The music is not essential, therefore
> > neither can be any performances of it.
>
> Well, as the OP all I can say is that, IMHO,
> Beethoven and Bach are *the* most essential
> composers ;-)
>
Essential for you does not imply essential for
everyone else.
To my ears, Chopin, Scriabin, Rachmaninov and
Albeniz are more essential than any composer
of bloated symphonies with brass and choirs.
dk
Dan Koren
news:20040122192019...@mb-m20.aol.com...
>
> The Haydn recordings are starting to emerge
> above the parapet. Just remembered how much
> I enjoy the Eb and the C. I may prefer Horowitz
> in Eb, but Richter certainly plays the hell
> out of these sonatas.
You're probably referring to Richter's 1986 Eb
on Decca.
The 1960 Bucharest performance shits on Horowitz.
Try JVC VICC-2137 or -5015 or AS Disc 338 or
Notes PGP 11025 or Historical Performers HP 37.
Bon voyage.
dk
Raymond Hall
For one awful minute, I thought you might have been referring to Bruckner,
but on closer examination, it appears not. Besides, what piano music did
Bruckner write?
And you forgot Debussy and Ravel.
<g>
Regards,
# http://www.users.bigpond.com/hallraylily/index.html
See You Tamara (Ozzy Osbourne)
Ray, Taree, NSW
Dan Koren
"Raymond Hall" <raytoby...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:bupreu$kfpjq$1...@ID-101911.news.uni-berlin.de...
> "Dan Koren" <dank...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:4010...@news.meer.net...
> |
> |
> | "Paul Ilechko" <pile...@patmedia.net> wrote in message
> | news:4010654F...@patmedia.net...
> | > Dan Koren wrote:
> | >
> | > >>>
> | > >>>The Beethoven is not *ESSENTIAL*.
> | > >>
> | > >>The Beethoven interpretations are the
> | > >>only essential interpretations by
> | > >>Richter, followed immediately by Bach
> | > >
> | > >
> | > >
> | > > a) The music is not essential, therefore
> | > > neither can be any performances of it.
> | >
> | > Well, as the OP all I can say is that, IMHO,
> | > Beethoven and Bach are *the* most essential
> | > composers ;-)
> | >
> |
> |
> | Essential for you does not imply essential for
> | everyone else.
> |
> | To my ears, Chopin, Scriabin, Rachmaninov and
> | Albeniz are more essential than any composer
> | of bloated symphonies with brass and choirs.
>
> For one awful minute, I thought you might have
> been referring to Bruckner, but on closer exami-
> nation, it appears not. Besides, what piano music
> did Bruckner write?
I'm glad he didn't. However, to my ears Schubert's
D840 hints at Bruckner, especially in Richter's
hands.
> And you forgot Debussy and Ravel.
No, they're not essential either.
dk
Bob Lombard
wrote:
>
>
>"Raymond Hall" <raytoby...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
>news:bupreu$kfpjq$1...@ID-101911.news.uni-berlin.de...
>> And you forgot Debussy and Ravel.
>
>
>No, they're not essential either.
>
>dk
>
A very Simonish attitude.
bl
Marc Perman
"EG" <long_ter...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:7c2a720b.04012...@posting.google.com...
> Among these I'd recommend to avoid the double DG cd with blue
cover.
> I don't recall the contents off the top of my head, but I recall
it being uneven.
Assuming you mean the Richter in Memoriam - Legendary Recordings
1959-65, this set has some essential recordings, though it's
better as an overview or introductory collection.
Marc Perman
Bob Lombard
wrote:
The only _essential_ Richter recording is the 1958 Sophia 'Pictures'
in its 'unremastered' version. That's because the struggle to hear
enough to comprehend the music, if successful, provides, well, a lot
of satisfaction. To understate my experience by several orders of
magnitude.
bl
David Wake
> Sviatoslav Richter seems to be very highly regarded on this n.g.
> However, from the recordings I've heard, there seems to be quite a wide
> variety in the quality level. So, what Richter discs do you regard as
> absolutely essential (and which ones should be left in the second hand
> store)?
>
> thx, Paul.
If I had to pick just one Richter recording, it would be his DG
Scriabin 5th Sonata. Not only because it is on a completely different
level from any other recording of the work I have heard (including
Richter's later performances), but because it still manages to make my
blood pressure shoot up every time I hear it -- and I've heard it
hundreds of times! (Unfortunately I don't know whether this is
currently available).
If I had to pick two Richter recordings -- probably the aforementioned
Scriabin together with either the Schubert Wanderer Fantasy (EMI) or
the Melodiya studio recording of the Schubert D845 A minor sonata.
These performances showcase his austere Schubert style to best effect,
and make a nice contrast with the finger-spinning Scriabin.
Well I could go on for hours but others have done so, so I'll stop here.
David
David Wake
> "Rajeev Aloysius" <raj...@starmail.com> wrote in message
> news:28a37761.04012...@posting.google.com...
> > Paul Ilechko <pile...@patmedia.net> wrote in message
> news:<400F02E1...@patmedia.net>...
> > > Sviatoslav Richter seems to be very highly regarded on this n.g.
> >
> > Brahms Piano Concerto no 2 Chicago SO/Leinsdorf
>
> The version with Mravinsky is better.
>
I much prefer the Maazel.
David
Marcus Maroney
Seems we all exhibit indifFerences in certain areas. Who would come
to Yale to study physics?
MM
Marcus Maroney
> They're not *ESSENTIAL*.
>
> ESSENTIAL means unique, definitive, indispensable.
>
> It means the works themselves must be masterpieces
> and the performance spellbinding. I did not set out
> to make a list of every good Richter performance on
> record, and the Brahms Sonatas 1/2 even in Richter's
> hands are far from being indispensable masterpieces.
>
> Do you even understand what it means to *FOCUS*?
My recommendation of the Brahms had NOTHING to do with you whatsoever.
I was replying to someone else on a thread that someone else started.
Your constant interloping and egocentric ways are so unbecoming,
exacerbated by your meaningless spouting and everpresent inability to
clearly articulate anything other than a primal like or dislike for
certain recordings in apelike grunts.
I don't care what you set out to do in this thread. Furthermore, I
doubt that you have any better idea what an "indispensable
masterpiece" is than anyone else on this list, let alone any pianist
who recorded anything, ever, let alone Sviatoslav Richter. I find
many of the characteristics in Richter's performance of the Brahms 1st
sonata constitute the essence of Richter as a Brahms perfomer and the
essence of his performances late in his career, being therefore
"ESSENTIAL" in the truest meaning of the word.
Sonarrat
pile...@patmedia.net wrote on 1/21/04 2:53 PM:
> Sviatoslav Richter seems to be very highly regarded on this n.g.
> However, from the recordings I've heard, there seems to be quite a wide
> variety in the quality level. So, what Richter discs do you regard as
> absolutely essential (and which ones should be left in the second hand
> store)?
Everything he ever recorded! It doesn't matter if you like it or don't like
it; it's all important. I have a particular fondness for the 1989 Vienna
recital, which consists entirely of 20th century works - Prokofiev 2nd
sonata, Stravinsky, Webern, Bartok, Hindemith, Szymanowski (a jaw-dropping,
though incomplete Metopes) and no Rachmaninoff... not, by any means, the
usual diet for a pianist in the Russian Romantic tradition!
-Sonarrat.
wille...@hotmail.com
>> b) I thought you specialized in collecting
> "Ashkenazy plays in spielhosen" recordings.
>
>
>
> dk
Dan,
Can you explain me once and for ever what on earth you mean by
"Ashkenazy plays in spielhosen"?? I fail to understand this, but I
gather it wasn't meant as a compliment?
Willem
Hartmut Fritzsche
> "Lenya Ryzhik" <ryz...@math.uchicago.edu> wrote in message
> news:Pine.LNX.4.44.040121...@otepaa.uchicago.edu...
> >
> > On 21 Jan 2004, Rajeev Aloysius wrote:
> >
> > > Can anyone tell me whether he was Rich-ter or Rick-ter?
>
> Depends which part of India one is from ;-)
>
> > Richter as in Bach, Mach, etc.
>
>
> Are you sure it wasn't Mack? ;-)
>
>
>
> dk
Richter as in Bach, Mach etc. is o.k. The Russian character of
Richter's 'ch' is the same as the 'kh' in Oistrakh (Oistrach).
(Originally, is is a German name, but Russian pronounciation is
different...)
Hartmut Fritzsche
Matthew燘. Tepper
typed in news:d8f12496.04012...@posting.google.com:
It's just DK trying to be clever. It doesn't have any meaning.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
War is Peace. ** Freedom is Slavery. ** It's all Napster's fault!
Alex
"Andy Evans" <aeatarts...@aol.comnohawker> wrote in message
> Prokofiev was maybe the composer he was supreme in - can't think of
anybody
> except the composer that played him better. Then Liszt - some astonishing
> performances. And Rachmaninov. Next to that probably his concerto readings
> (including K466). For instance I love all his Bach concertos - raw
energy -
> though I can't listen to his 48. I wouldn't put his Scriabin on the same
level
> as Horowitz, Feinberg or Sofronitsky. Debussy - some nice things like the
> Preludes, and Chopin especially the 4th Scherzo which is a little miracle.
> Schubert - not maybe the first I would listen to but certainly one of the
best.
> Schumann likewise.
I'll add these:
Dvorak Concerto, with Kleiber on EMI, or on Praga
Schubert D664 EMI
Chopin Polonaise-Fantasie Praga
The Helsinki Recital 1976 on M&A - mainly for the Chopin Scherzo #4 and
Etude op. 25/7
Dan Koren
news:d8f12496.04012...@posting.google.com...
> "Dan Koren" <dank...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:<40105648$1...@news.meer.net>...
> >>
> >> b) I thought you specialized in collecting
> >> "Ashkenazy plays in spielhosen" recordings.
>
>
> Can you explain me once and for ever what on earth you mean by
> "Ashkenazy plays in spielhosen"?? I fail to understand this, but I
> gather it wasn't meant as a compliment?
>
It's an oblique reference to the young Ashkenazy, whom
Henk van Tuijl seems to like a lot more than he deserved.
Ashkenazy seems to have been going downhill ever since
he won the Queen Elisabeth.
dk
Dan Koren
news:36e345bc.04012...@posting.google.com...
> "Dan Koren" <dank...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:<400f82be$1...@news.meer.net>...
> > "Lenya Ryzhik" <ryz...@math.uchicago.edu> wrote in message
> > news:Pine.LNX.4.44.040121...@otepaa.uchicago.edu...
> > >
> > > On 21 Jan 2004, Rajeev Aloysius wrote:
> > >
> > > > Can anyone tell me whether he was Rich-ter or Rick-ter?
> >
> > Depends which part of India one is from ;-)
> >
> > > Richter as in Bach, Mach, etc.
> >
> > Are you sure it wasn't Mack? ;-)
>
> Richter's 'ch' is the same as the 'kh' in Oistrakh (Oistrach).
> (Originally, is is a German name, but Russian pronounciation is
> different...)
Point well taken, and thanks for
the explanation.
I was actually thinking of Mack
trucks.
dk
John Gavin
My all-time favorite is a live recording of a large group of Scriabin
Etudes and Sonata #6 from the Moscow Conservatory (1950s). I'm not
sure if it's currently available or not.
John Wiser
> My all-time favorite is a live recording of a large group of Scriabin
> Etudes and Sonata #6 from the Moscow Conservatory (1950s). I'm not
> sure if it's currently available or not.
Yes, it is....
http://www.parnassusrecords.com/pacd96003_4contents.htm
--
John Wiser
cee...@frontiernet.not
>
Henk van Tuijl
all the horrors of "Spielhosen" going
downhill.
I still think back with much pleasure
to the recitals Ashkenazy and
Rubinstein gave from the 195x to the
late 196x.
Henk
Dan Koren
>
> "Dan Koren" <dank...@yahoo.com> schreef in bericht
> news:4011799c$1...@news.meer.net...
> > <wille...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:d8f12496.04012...@posting.google.com...
> > > "Dan Koren" <dank...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:<40105648$1...@news.meer.net>...
> > > >>
> > > >> b) I thought you specialized in collecting
> > > >> "Ashkenazy plays in spielhosen" recordings.
> > >
> > > Dan,
> > >
> > > Can you explain me once and for ever what on earth you mean by
> > > "Ashkenazy plays in spielhosen"?? I fail to understand this, but I
> > > gather it wasn't meant as a compliment?
> >
> > It's an oblique reference to the young Ashkenazy, whom
> > Henk van Tuijl seems to like a lot more than he deserved.
> >
> > Ashkenazy seems to have been going downhill ever since
> > he won the Queen Elisabeth.
>
> all the horrors of "Spielhosen" going
> downhill.
I don't ski in spielhosen.
> I still think back with much pleasure
> to the recitals Ashkenazy and
> Rubinstein gave from the 195x to the
> late 196x.
And you haven't had any pleasure
since the late 196x?
dk
Peter Lemken
> John Gavin wrote:
> > My all-time favorite is a live recording of a large group of Scriabin
> > Etudes and Sonata #6 from the Moscow Conservatory (1950s). I'm not
> > sure if it's currently available or not.
>
> Yes, it is....
> http://www.parnassusrecords.com/pacd96003_4contents.htm
The alternative mix of etudes from 1972 is just as thrilling.
Peter Lemken
Berlin
--
Der Pünktliche, der Kartenbesorger und vor allem der Platzfreihalter ist
immer der Idiot. Wechsle die Seite oder lebe damit.
-- kro in de.alt.talk.unmut
Henk van Tuijl
> > Only a skier knows from the inside
> > all the horrors of "Spielhosen" going
> > downhill.
>
>
> I don't ski in spielhosen.
>
>
Today's ski outfits are nothing but
upgraded "Spielhosen" .
It is good to hear that you ski in
plusfours, pullovers and old
fashioned leather hiker shoes.
You go downhill in great style ...
> > I still think back with much pleasure
> > to the recitals Ashkenazy and
> > Rubinstein gave from the 195x to the
> > late 196x.
>
>
> And you haven't had any pleasure
> since the late 196x?
>
>
I did like young Pollini in the
196x and 197x.
After the changes that took place
in Pollini's playing I tried to
find a replacement for him - and
did hear a very convincing
Pogorelich in Chopin and Scriabin.
These days I am very interested
in Guy and Von Eckardstein.
Henk
The Bishop of Reason
You're a bit of a wanker aren't you?
David Wake
> John Wiser <jic...@frontiernet.net> wrote:
> > John Gavin wrote:
> > > My all-time favorite is a live recording of a large group of Scriabin
> > > Etudes and Sonata #6 from the Moscow Conservatory (1950s). I'm not
> > > sure if it's currently available or not.
> >
> > Yes, it is....
> > http://www.parnassusrecords.com/pacd96003_4contents.htm
>
> The alternative mix of etudes from 1972 is just as thrilling.
>
Assuming you're referring to the Warsaw recital on Music and Arts, I'd
have to disagree.
David
Andy Mountford
wrote:
>
>Here is the shortest list of 'must have'
>Richter recordings (IMHO of course):
>
.
.
>
>Franck Prelude, Chorale & Fugue:
>Philips 442459 or 454166 or 454171.
>
.
.
I remember hearing (what I now presume to be) this performance in the
late '60s and was stunned by it. Being young and naive at the time, I
went searching, "found" it on Monitor 2022, ordered it and was hugely
disappointed: good, yes; great, no.
I've searched for this one several times recently but to no avail. Is
it available anywhere (even on vinyl as a last resort)?
Andy
John Wiser
observed:
> "Dan Koren" wrote:
> > "Henk van Tuijl" wrote:> > >
> > > "Dan Koren" dankoren, yahoo schreef:
> > > > <wille...@hotmail.com wrote:
"Dan Koren" <dank oren, yahoo wrote:
[snip][snip][snip][snip][snip][snip][snip][snip][snip][snip][snip][snip][sn
ip][snip][snip][snip][snip][snip][snip][snip][snip][snip][snip][snip][snip]
[snip][snip][snip][snip][snip]
[snip][snip][snip][snip][snip][snip][snip][snip][snip][snip][snip][snip][sn
ip][snip][snip][snip][snip][snip][snip][snip][snip][snip][snip][snip][snip]
[snip][snip][snip][snip][snip][snip][snip][snip][snip][snip][snip][snip][sn
ip][snip][snip][snip][snip][snip][snip][snip][snip][snip][snip][snip][snip]
[snip][snip][snip][snip][snip][snip][snip][snip][snip][snip][snip][snip][sn
ip][snip]
> You're a bit of a wanker aren't you?
>
wandering in out of the yard
to state the obvious...
--
John Wiser
cee...@frontiernet.not