Elgar 2

[msw design]

Yes, Dave is prodding some of my listening. His Elgar 2 video had me return to my recent favorite - Baremboim/SB - to see if my initial appreciation of it was dimmed. Nope. Love it. Beautiful orchestral sound, legato phrasing, propulsive, spontaneous, felt, and never foursquare.

Now I'm listening to Slatkin. It's not bad, and may be quite good. But the recording- ugh. The orchestra has no weight at all. I love me some good hall ambiance, I do, but this soundstage stinks. The orchestra gets loud and I just hear an ugly space. I swear Steinberg's Beethoven discs have more bass than what we have here.

Slatkin does flirt with sounding foursquare, too. The first movement the "evil theme", or whatever David calls it, has no allure at all. Sounds like a depiction of a well-designed bookshelf. I guess Elgar condones this sort of stiffness, and one of the things I like about Barenboim is that Elgar sounds a bit more like Wagner. Sounds nuts? Nope- that's all good from my angle.

Any reactions here to these two recordings, Dave's other faves, and your own picks?

[Neil]

Mackerras?

[Alex Brown]

I am a huge Elgar 2 fan. It's a piece I came to love through the
accident of having it on a portable music player while commuting and
never having time to refresh the playlist. From "huh?" my reaction went
to "well, it's nice I suppose" to - after around 20 listens - "Holy *£$#
- this is a masterpiece!". Is it the greatest C20th symphony I wonder?

Funny how some Elgar is so "easy" and yet other of his stuff seems to
need a lot of listening to "click".

I liked how DH's video enthused about the symphonic strength of the work
and the need for balance. Spot on!

I too think that Barenboim's Staatskapelle Berlin recording is excellent
- probably my favourite in a strong field (for reference I also have
Andrew Davis 1992, Previn/Concertgebouw 1992, Sinopoli 1987, Barbirolli
1964, Handley 1980, Solti 1975, Colin Davis 2001, Elgar 1927, Tate 1990,
Haitink 1984, Menuhin 1990 - and have watched K Petrenko's Berlin PO
performance on the Digital Concert Hall a couple of times).

Previn's slow movement is 11:40 - quite a contrast to Sinopoli's 18:25.
Is there any other symphonic movement that has such a range of tempo
variation on record I wonder.

For me a touchstone of any recording is the passage for oboe in the
middle of the slow movement which I like to have a sense of line
balanced (yes) against the troubling rhythmical goings on everywhere
else in the orchestra. Handley is excellent here.

I was intrigued by DH's description of the Mackerras and so bought a
download - it's another excellent one and the "faithful" string
portamenti add an interesting touch.

I've heard too many very good but ultimately rather bland Slatkin
recordings to be tempted by that recommendation.

--
- Alex Brown

[msw design]

On Thursday, July 9, 2020 at 10:07:59 AM UTC-5, Alex Brown wrote:

> I've heard too many very good but ultimately rather bland Slatkin
> recordings to be tempted by that recommendation.

Both of Slatkin's RVW "Sea Symphony" recordings are fantastic, so I can't write him off any more. In the Elgar 2, he does bring a sense of forward momentem to the whole piece, even if it means that certain sections where you want him to make a meal of it he is done and gone without a second thought. I still don't like the sound, and it is nowhere near a first choice, but it is quite good.

[Frank Berger]

Pretty much every well known Elgar 2 recording has been, or
will be, praised by somebody before this thread dies out.
Except maybe Slatkin. I looked around to see about
supplementing my Elgar 2 collection and found no recordings
universally praised enough to buy without listening first.
That goes for Barenboim, Andrew Davis, Vasily Petrenko (I
wish Kirill would record more).

[Bozo]

>On Thursday, July 9, 2020 at 11:17:10 AM UTC-5, Frank Berger wrote:
>I looked around to see about
> supplementing my Elgar 2 collection and found no recordings
> universally praised enough to buy without listening first.
> That goes for Barenboim, Andrew Davis, Vasily Petrenko (I
> wish Kirill would record more).

Here Kirill playing Elgar 2 with BPO in 2009, if you buy a ticket :

https://www.digitalconcerthall.com/en/concert/14

[Kerrison]

>
> Here Kirill playing Elgar 2 with BPO in 2009, if you buy a ticket :
>
> https://www.digitalconcerthall.com/en/concert/14

Mention of Petrenko reminded me that Vasily's 2014 Proms performance is on YouTube with nothing but laudatory comments under the video ... "magnificent" ... "beautiful performance" ... "heart-breakingly wonderful" ... "stunning" ... and so on. He recorded it for 'Onyx' with this same orchestra (RLPO) so presumably that's as good as this live performance ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8cUFZ2T0X0&t=1001s

The Kirill Petrenko / Berlin performance is equally fine, so clearly these Russians know their Elgar!

[Frank Berger]

I have 1979 live performance from Svetlanov, that I listened
to once and didn't care for, but I don't recall why.

[Frank Berger]

On 7/9/2020 3:48 PM, Kerrison wrote:
>
>>

>> Here Kirill playing Elgar 2 with BPO in 2009, if you buy a ticket :
>>
>> https://www.digitalconcerthall.com/en/concert/14
>

This 2009 performance is the first time the BPO has played
Elgar 2 since 1972.

> Mention of Petrenko reminded me that Vasily's 2014 Proms performance is on YouTube with nothing but laudatory comments under the video ... "magnificent" ... "beautiful performance" ... "heart-breakingly wonderful" ... "stunning" ... and so on. He recorded it for 'Onyx' with this same orchestra (RLPO) so presumably that's as good as this live performance ...
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8cUFZ2T0X0&t=1001s
>

Vasily has now recorded the symphonies (not #3), In the
South, Enigma Variations, Serenade for Strings, Sea
Pictures, the Music Makers, Cockaigne, Chanson de Matin,
Charissima and Mina (this last I am unfamilar with). Time
for a box set!

My OCDC was telling me to acquire all of these, but thew
reviews have thrown cold water on that idea, thankfully.
Hurwitz has a review of Elgar 1/Cockaigne (negative), that
begins cleverly:

"I have no doubt that if the sun were to die out and there
was just enough energy left to launch an interstellar
mission to save humanity, the British recording industry
would scuttle the whole project to use the scarce remaining
resources to record another Elgar series."

https://www.classicstoday.com/review/will-always-elgar/

(not behind the paywall)

[msw design]

Here is your multiple-choice game of the day. Which of the below is Georg, Kirill or Vasily?

a. 15:57 | 12:21 | 7:49 | 12:57
b. 19:14 | 15:04 | 7:58 | 16:60
c. 15:33 | 15:35 | 7:53 | 12:34

[Frank Berger]

B. is Vasily
C. is Solti
hence, A. is Kirill.

It was easy. I cheated. I guess the most noteworthy thing
is Vasily's slowness in I and IV which is consistent with
some of the reviews, I think.

[Raymond Hall]

I don't really have picks, but only what I own, which is Judd/Halle on IMP for Elgar No.1, and Handley/LPO for No.2. Both seem very good to me in the absence of comparisons. This thread has prompted me as to whether I now need the Colin Davis/Dresden 2nd. I much prefer the 2nd symphony to the first.

I have heard great things about the Colin Davis/Dresden 2nd.

Ray Hall, Taree

[msw design]

Kirill's tempi for ii is kinda nutty- faster than Elgar, I believe.

Vasily is slow, but he usually makes this work. Will have to sample it.

[msw design]

The first has to be recognized an important sleep aid. I joke only a little.

I like the piece, but made the mistake of attending a Elder/CSO performance. By the middle of the first movement, the evil demon of sleep was crawling up my back and my neck and struggle as I might, I could not stay awake. This was a very conscious struggle, and I lost, over and over.

I have a CPAP now, so maybe I'd fare better against this enemy, but I have a history of talking warm, mushy pieces to heart and turning them into a pillow. My father has a fond memory of me waking up for Haydn's "suprise" under Tanglewood's shed. But you can forgive me- I was seven or so.

[Frank Berger]

I fell asleep during the battle scene in Star Wars I in
1978. I can fall asleep during anything (especially
adventure movies). I can't stay asleep sitting up, however.
I see people on airplanes contentedly sleeping sitting up
for extended periods. As soon as I really fall asleep my
neck muscles relax and my head falls forward. It can be
quite jarring. I've thought of a strap around my forehead
and the seat back, but I've never tried it.

[number_six]

On Thursday, July 9, 2020 at 8:07:59 AM UTC-7, Alex Brown wrote:
>
> I am a huge Elgar 2 fan. It's a piece I came to love through the
> accident of having it on a portable music player while commuting and
> never having time to refresh the playlist. From "huh?" my reaction went
> to "well, it's nice I suppose" to - after around 20 listens - "Holy *£$#
> - this is a masterpiece!". Is it the greatest C20th symphony I wonder?
>
> Funny how some Elgar is so "easy" and yet other of his stuff seems to
> need a lot of listening to "click".
>

Where Elgar's Symphonies are concerned, I'm still in that "huh?" phase. But have not heard them in several years.

[Andrew Clarke]

On Friday, 10 July 2020 07:06:45 UTC+10, Frank Berger wrote:

quoting Dave the Dude:

> "I have no doubt that if the sun were to die out and there
> was just enough energy left to launch an interstellar
> mission to save humanity, the British recording industry
> would scuttle the whole project to use the scarce remaining
> resources to record another Elgar series."
>
> https://www.classicstoday.com/review/will-always-elgar/
>

Actually another Elgar cycle shouldn't take up too many resources. Two symphonies, two concertos, a couple of overtures, the Enigmas, the Introd and Alleg, the Serenade for S. Mercifully they aren't big on Haydn cycles, although they did give the man an honorary doctorate.

When is the American recording industry going to give us a new Ives cycle?

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

"It happens that he comes along while Dave the Dude is off in the Modoc on a little run down to the Bahamas to get some goods for his business, such as Scotch and champagne, and by the time Dave gets back Miss Billy Perry and Waldo Winchester are at the stage where they sit in corners between her numbers and hold hands.

Of course nobody tells Dave the Dude about this, because they do not wish to get him excited. Not even Miss Missouri Martin tells him, which is most unusual because Miss Missouri Martin, who is sometimes called 'Mizzoo' for short, tells everything she knows as soon as she knows it, which is very often before it happens.

You see, the idea is when Dave the Dude is excited he may blow somebody's brains out, and the chances are it will be nobody's brains but Waldo Winchester's, although some claim that Waldo Winchester has no brains or he will not be hanging around Dave the Dude's doll."

- Damon Runyon, 'Romance in the Roaring Forties'

[O...@aol.com]

Barenboim w/ SB is my top DDD choice. I like his Symphony No.1 also, and the Cello Concerto with Alicia Weilerstein is superb too. Only The Dream of Gerontius leaves something to be desired, largely but not totally on account of the soloists, where a Vickers-type voice is always remembered from the past.

[cooper...@gmail.com]

On Saturday, July 11, 2020 at 1:17:02 AM UTC-4, Andrew Clarke wrote:
>
> When is the American recording industry going to give us a new Ives cycle?
>

For starters, how about a box of the unreissued and o/p Columbias, beginning with the two Gregg Smith Singers LPs.

AC

[Andrew Clarke]

(a) reissues don't count.
(b) where are you going to find an American recording industry?

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

[Oscar]

Barenboim's Elgar Sea Pictures w/ Elina Garanča (Mz) and SB hits AppleMusic tonight. Going to stay up late to give it an especial audition at 12:01 a.m.

Andrew Clements's 4 star review (out of 5):
Elgar: Sea Pictures, Falstaff review – single note of nostalgia eludes an impeccable Barenboim.

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2020/jul/23/elgar-sea-pictures-falstaff-review

[Alex Brown]

I've never "got" Falstaff, and for Sea Pictures surely Gladys Ripley
rather than Janet Bakers is "the benchmark"?

--
- Alex Brown

[O...@aol.com]

^^ Re Ripley :thumbsup:

http://shellackophile.blogspot.com/2010/11/gladys-ripley-sings-sea-pictures.html?m=1

[Raymond Hall]

- show quoted text -

-I've never "got" Falstaff, and for Sea Pictures surely Gladys Ripley
-rather than Janet Bakers is "the benchmark"?

I never really get Verdi's Falstaff, but I know that it is a piece of music, opera no less, that I can listen to as an abstract (to me) piece, that is quite stupendous in its complexity and form. I have Bernstein's Falstaff on cd. As for Elgar's Falstaff, a little similar.

Ray Hall, Taree

[Frank Berger]

The reviewer wants nostalgia, but not twee (a new word to
me). Kind of like a spacecraft hitting the atmosphere at
the right angle. Or not.

[Bob Harper]

I hadn't got Elgar's Falstaff until recently, but the other day I
listened to Andrew Davis's recording on Lyrita, and it clicked. A great
piece of program music.

Bob Harper

[number_six]

I see the recently-discussed Kipepeo Publishing has a reissue of Ripley, whose Sea Pix I have not heard. I like the work but probably have only Baker.

[Frank Berger]

I have LSO/Weldon/Ripley/1954 on a Somm CD. No sign if it
online. No idea when or where I got it. No doubt the
source for Kipepeo. I see my database says I also have
Philharmonia/Weldon/Ripey/1946 on Pearl.

[Matthew Silverstein]

On Thursday, July 9, 2020 at 7:07:59 PM UTC+4, Alex Brown wrote:

> Previn's slow movement is 11:40 - quite a contrast to Sinopoli's 18:25.
> Is there any other symphonic movement that has such a range of tempo
> variation on record I wonder.

Bernstein's final recording of the last movement of Tchaikovsky 6 is 17:18. Abbado/CSO is 9:10.

Matty

[Alex Brown]

I should've known Bernstein (or Celibidache) would take the palm ;-)

I suppose I need to look at the weird and wonderful world of Remy Ballot
and (shudder) "Maximianno Cobra" to see if they do something even
weirder ...

[Bob Harper]

Why bother?

Bob Harper

[Matthew Silverstein]

On Tuesday, July 28, 2020 at 8:46:04 PM UTC+4, Alex Brown wrote:

> I should've known Bernstein (or Celibidache) would take the palm ;-)
>
> I suppose I need to look at the weird and wonderful world of Remy Ballot
> and (shudder) "Maximianno Cobra" to see if they do something even
> weirder ...

Here's another: the Arietta of Beethoven's last piano sonata: Backhaus (mono) is 13:18. Urgorski on DG) is 26:54.

Matty

[Matthew Silverstein]

On Wednesday, July 29, 2020 at 11:47:46 AM UTC+4, Matthew Silverstein wrote:

> Here's another: the Arietta of Beethoven's last piano sonata: Backhaus (mono) is 13:18. Urgorski on DG) is 26:54.

For what it's worth, I think both the Bernstein and the Ugorski are worth hearing, in their wonderfully perverse way.

Matty

[Alex Brown]

On 2020-07-29 09:40, dk wrote:

> Have you ever heard either Celi or
> Lenny live? It seems obvious you
> do not understand music sounds
> very different in concert halls
> than it does on recordings played
> through one's home sound system.
>
> Celi designed his performances
> for live audiences in concert
> halls -- not for recordings.
> His choice of tempi makes
> perfect sense in real
> concert halls.
>
> dk
>

Not lucky (or old) enough to have seen either of them. I'm sure their
concerts were great! I think Celibidache's recordings (and videos) often
make sense too.

But this is just a silly numbers game for fun.

The recordings of Maximianno Cobra are particularly weird because some
of them appear to be of a synthesizer, rather than a real orchestra.

[vhorowitz]

I heard Celibidache do the Bruckner 4th with Munich PO in Ann Arbor, and it was just as absurd a performance in person as the contemporaneous recording that was issued. I’ve seen cases made for the ending being a great revelation, but to me it’s complete nonsense to separate the string tremolos as he does. And whatever it IS, and whether one likes this or not, it’s certainly nothing to do with the score that Bruckner set down on paper. .The next evening I DID hear a fabulous Brahms 4th with them, so that’s memory I’m happy to live with over that almost 90 minute Bruckner 4th from hell.

On the other hand, having heard Horowitz twice in person, where his sound WAS both electrifying and beautiful, and where I could actually enjoy his bastardized ending of the Chopin B Minor Scherzo, I do not get any comparable pleasure from his studio recordings from that time, in terms of piano sound at higher dynamics.

Everyone who’s heard Claudio Arrau on those countless Philips recordings should try to hear his Brahms F minor sonata from a live NY performance as issued by APR. Although the sound isn’t “hi-fi” you get a sense of the thrill his sonority had in person. And as much as I admire the Philips version, the live one, in this case, really lets it rip in a thrilling fashion, with no loss of control.

[vhorowitz]

And about Lenny live I completely agree. The Mahler 5th with VPO I heard in person was one of the greatest things I ever heard, (despite the 15 minute Adagietto, which doesn’t work on recordings). DG issued their recording around that time, and it can’t hold a candle to what happened “live”.

[vhorowitz]

Who gives a damn whether you OR I (for that matter) think Arrau’’s version is “worthy” of being admired? Such melodramatic posturing....I thought we were talking about differences in effect between studio and live of certain performers. In any case, I sure don’t need you telling me whether it’s worthwhile or not to listen to those performances. How pretentious and pointless. Yeah, I know plenty of other Brahms F minor Sonatas I also enjoy too.....that’s another subject. I doubt we agree on that, but you’re entitled to your views and so am I, without “clearly” putting anything in the “gutter”, thank you very much!

[Frank Berger]

On 7/29/2020 5:35 PM, vhorowitz wrote:
> Who gives a damn whether you OR I (for that matter) think Arrau’’s version is “worthy” of being admired? Such melodramatic posturing....I thought we were talking about differences in effect between studio and live of certain performers. In any case, I sure don’t need you telling me whether it’s worthwhile or not to listen to those performances. How pretentious and pointless. Yeah, I know plenty of other Brahms F minor Sonatas I also enjoy too.....that’s another subject. I doubt we agree on that, but you’re entitled to your views and so am I, without “clearly” putting anything in the “gutter”, thank you very much!
>

You know that live Bernstein performance of Mahler 5 that
you told us you liked so well? How dare you assume that we
give a flip what you like? How pretentious.

[vhorowitz]

Exactly! Now, there’s the spirit!