How to pronounce Leibowirz

[Frank Berger]

I heard a radio announcer pronounce (Rene) Leibowitz as Libe-owitz, a la Leonard Berstine. I always think of these names as with a long e sound. Bernsteen and Leebowoitz, simply because I've know people who pronounce the "ei" in their names that way.

(I understand the correct way to pronounce a person's name is as he does).

Anyway, Wikopedia seems to think (Rene) Leibowitz is pronounced with a short e as in Lebowitz.

What is correct? And how do we know?

[Dan Koren]

On Tuesday, January 18, 2022 at 2:05:54 PM UTC-8, Frank Berger wrote:
> I heard a radio announcer pronounce (René)

> Leibowitz as Libe-owitz, a la Leonard Berstine.
> I always think of these names as with a long e
> sound. Bernsteen and Leebowoitz, simply because
> I've know people who pronounce the "ei" in their
> names that way.
>
> (I understand the correct way to pronounce
> a person's name is as he does).

Unfortunately, René is no longer
able to provide guidance.

> Anyway, Wikipedia seems to think
> (René) Leibowitz is pronounced

> with a short e as in Lebowitz.
>
> What is correct? And how do we know?

We know because we speak French.

Follow the French pronounciation:
René Leibowitz (French: [ʁəne lɛbɔwits].

The Wikipedia is correct. It is a short
e ("ɛ"), not a long e. Give the French
their due.

dk

[Frank Berger]

The Leibowitz family was Polish, moving to France when René (yay, I made an accent aigu). was 13. Perhaps he pronounced his own name with a Polish accent. Not sure why you say a short e is the "correct" way to pronounce the name in French. Researching the name produced conflicting explanations. One source says the "Leib" part comes from German for baker, so Leibowutz means baker"s son. Other sources say Leib is from the Hebrew for heart or love and another from the Yiddish for Lion.

[raymond....@gmail.com]

From my knowledge of German, quite a phonetic language, "ei" is normally pronounced as in "stine", rather than "steen". Bernstein I always pronounce "Bernstine".

Ray Hall, Taree

[Frank Berger]

Every "Bernstein" I've known (quite a few, actually) pronounced it Bernsteen. I always figured Leonard was just trying to be different or fancy or something. Of course, it could be that the family always pronounced it Bernstine. I thought in German it would be pronounced Bernshtine. If so, why would practically all Bernstein families in the U.S. pronounce it Bernsteen? As i said before the correct pronounciation for a name is the way the family pronounces it. When I asked for the correct pronounciation of Leibowitz, I was simply concerned with how he pronounced it.

[Andrew Clarke]

On Wednesday, January 19, 2022 at 12:46:40 PM UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:

> Every "Bernstein" I've known (quite a few, actually) pronounced it Bernsteen. I always figured Leonard was just trying to be different or fancy or something. Of course, it could be that the family always pronounced it Bernstine. I thought in German it would be pronounced Bernshtine. If so, why would practically all Bernstein families in the U.S. pronounce it Bernsteen? As i said before the correct pronounciation for a name is the way the family pronounces it. When I asked for the correct pronounciation of Leibowitz, I was simply concerned with how he pronounced it.

Frank, I once wrote to my old school friend who lives in Haifa whose daughter married a doctor and who speaks English, Hebrew and Yiddish fluently, and he cannot think of any good linguistic reason why Jewish Americans should pronounce Bernstein as Bernsteen either. My suggestion was that for very obvious reasons they didn't want their names to sound German. I suppose it could also have been part of a movement to sound more American, cf Moishe --> Murray or Sarah --> Shirley.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

[Frank Berger]

Does Bernsteen sounds more American than Bernstine? I'm asking an Aussie. Most Jewish immigrants came to the U.S. before WW I, so why would they even be afraid of German sounding names? Unless they only started changing the pronunciation during or after WW I. OTOH, I don't know why my own family changed the family name from Begun to Berger around 1930.

[raymond....@gmail.com]

Grammatically, BernstEYEne is correct. Of that I am absolutely sure. However, outside of grammatical correctness it is obviously left to the idiosyncrancies of local dialects where ever that may be. StEEn is easier to say btw.

There is a widely spread story that goes as follows. Lenny once met the wife of the owner of Steinway, and the following was heard, ""Oh Mr. BernSTEEN, I just love your shows!" to which he replied, "And I love your pianos, Mrs. STEENway!".

Ray Hall, Taree

[Frank Berger]

On 1/19/2022 12:07 AM, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, 19 January 2022 at 15:04:42 UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:
>> On 1/18/2022 10:35 PM, Andrew Clarke wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, January 19, 2022 at 12:46:40 PM UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:
>>>
>>>> Every "Bernstein" I've known (quite a few, actually) pronounced it Bernsteen. I always figured Leonard was just trying to be different or fancy or something. Of course, it could be that the family always pronounced it Bernstine. I thought in German it would be pronounced Bernshtine. If so, why would practically all Bernstein families in the U.S. pronounce it Bernsteen? As i said before the correct pronounciation for a name is the way the family pronounces it. When I asked for the correct pronounciation of Leibowitz, I was simply concerned with how he pronounced it.
>>>
>>> Frank, I once wrote to my old school friend who lives in Haifa whose daughter married a doctor and who speaks English, Hebrew and Yiddish fluently, and he cannot think of any good linguistic reason why Jewish Americans should pronounce Bernstein as Bernsteen either. My suggestion was that for very obvious reasons they didn't want their names to sound German. I suppose it could also have been part of a movement to sound more American, cf Moishe --> Murray or Sarah --> Shirley.
>>>
>>> Andrew Clarke
>>> Canberra
>> Does Bernsteen sounds more American than Bernstine? I'm asking an Aussie. Most Jewish immigrants came to the U.S. before WW I, so why would they even be afraid of German sounding names? Unless they only started changing the pronunciation during or after WW I. OTOH, I don't know why my own family changed the family name from Begun to Berger around 1930.
>
> Grammatically, BernstEYEne is correct. Of that I am absolutely sure. However, outside of grammatical correctness it is obviously left to the idiosyncrancies of local dialects where ever that may be. StEEn is easier to say btw.
>

Technically, I don't think pronunciation is part of grammar. There are so many exceptions to every rule in English how could there be a "correct" way to pronounce it? I know what you mean, though. My family's original name Begun, was pronounced, I think, Begoon in Eastern Europe. Clearly, no English speaker would pronounce it that way. I don't know that "Stein" is as clear as that, though. Maybe.

> There is a widely spread story that goes as follows. Lenny once met the wife of the owner of Steinway, and the following was heard, ""Oh Mr. BernSTEEN, I just love your shows!" to which he replied, "And I love your pianos, Mrs. STEENway!".
>
> Ray Hall, Taree

Part of why this is funny is because Stein by itself or to begin a name (I guess) is never pronounced "Steen." So why should stein at the end vary. Why didn't Jewish immigrant named Stein pronounce it Steen?

[Dan Koren]

On Tuesday, January 18, 2022 at 10:35:20 PM UTC-5, andrewc...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> I once wrote to my old school friend who
> lives in Haifa whose daughter married a
> doctor and who speaks English, Hebrew
> and Yiddish fluently

That's impossible! ;-)

dk

[Dan Koren]

On Tuesday, January 18, 2022 at 7:26:39 PM UTC-5, Frank Berger wrote:
> On 1/18/2022 6:39 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
> > On Tuesday, January 18, 2022 at 2:05:54 PM UTC-8, Frank Berger wrote:
> >> I heard a radio announcer pronounce (René)
> >> Leibowitz as Libe-owitz, a la Leonard Berstine.
> >> I always think of these names as with a long e
> >> sound. Bernsteen and Leebowoitz, simply because
> >> I've know people who pronounce the "ei" in their
> >> names that way.
> >>
> >> (I understand the correct way to pronounce
> >> a person's name is as he does).
> >
> > Unfortunately, René is no longer
> > able to provide guidance.
> >
> >> Anyway, Wikipedia seems to think
> >> (René) Leibowitz is pronounced
> >> with a short e as in Lebowitz.
> >>
> >> What is correct? And how do we know?
> >
> > We know because we speak French.
> >
> > Follow the French pronounciation:
> > René Leibowitz (French: [ʁəne lɛbɔwits].
> >
> > The Wikipedia is correct. It is a short
> > e ("ɛ"), not a long e. Give the French
> > their due.
>

> The Leibowitz family was Polish, moving to
> France when René (yay, I made an accent aigu).

You didn't make it. You just copied and pasted it!
Cheat! ;-)

> was 13. Perhaps he pronounced his own name
> with a Polish accent. Not sure why you say a
> short e is the "correct" way to pronounce the
> name in French.

Because this is the way (most) French people
pronounce it.

> Researching the name produced conflicting
> explanations. One source says the "Leib" part
> comes from German for baker, so Leibowutz
> means baker"s son. Other sources say Leib is
> from the Hebrew for heart or love and another
> from the Yiddish for Lion.

Research always leads to more confusion.
Better stick to simple truths! ;-)

dk

[Frank Berger]

Nope. cntl-alt e.

>> was 13. Perhaps he pronounced his own name
>> with a Polish accent. Not sure why you say a
>> short e is the "correct" way to pronounce the
>> name in French.
>
> Because this is the way (most) French people
> pronounce it.
>
>> Researching the name produced conflicting
>> explanations. One source says the "Leib" part
>> comes from German for baker, so Leibowutz
>> means baker"s son. Other sources say Leib is
>> from the Hebrew for heart or love and another
>> from the Yiddish for Lion.
>
> Research always leads to more confusion.
> Better stick to simple truths! ;-)
>
> dk

You mean pick a point of view and then stick with it no matter what.

The earth is flat and all evidence to the contrary is fake!

[Dan Koren]

> You mean pick a point of view and then
> stick with it no matter what.

Isn't this how many (most?) people act?

> The earth is flat and all evidence to the
> contrary is fake!

There is no evidence to the conrtary!
In fact, the entire universe is flat! As
flat as Texas! Just ask Louie Gohmert! ;-)

dk

[Andy Evans]

I wouldn't trust the Americans' pronunciation of European or indeed international names - they can be very misleading. Examples - Eye-rak for Iraq, Kowsowvow for Kossovo. And Kowlin Powell for Colin etc etc. I suppose it's up to the family to choose how to say their name, but when the original is obvious it's still strange.

For example singer Sara Bareilles appears to be pronounced "Barellis" in the USA, though it's clearly "Barey" in French.

I would pronounce Leibowitz as "Lie - bovitz" following the German tradition that in the case of "ei" you pronounce the last vowel.

[Andrew Clarke]

Maybe they changed the pronunciation after the USA entered the First World War? In South Australia, there were a considerable number of German Lutheran immigrants, and although there was no Lake Wobegon there were several towns with German names that changed them to more English ones during that conflict. Petersburg, then an important railway town, became Peterborough for example, although there are no longer any trains in South Australia outside the Adelaide area, apart from the Sydney-Perth 'Indian Pacific' that runs through Peterborough without stopping, and the Adelaide-Darwin "The Ghan" which doesn't go through Peterborough at all.

Hahndorf, famed for its Schuetzenfest, remains. It's really a booze-up.

I was wondering about the Berger. There is of course a famous Berger in Offenbach's "La Belle Helene" but I think it's pronounced differently: he does, however, get the girl. I see that Begun is from Belorussian "one who runs or walks quickly".

[Frank Berger]

There are two approximately equal spellings, almost opposite in meaning. Burger, from Burgher, means city dweller. Berger from the French bergere, means shepherd. I've never heard Berger or Burgher pronounced other than the obvious. There is a German cellist named Julius Berger (b. 1954), which was my grandfather's name. I have a few recordings of him playing Kornkold and Boccherini. Interestingly (?) he lives in Augsburg, Germany, where my cousin Jane Berger is a violinist with the Augsburg Philharmonic.

When considering changing the name from Begun, it's hard to imagine how they came up with Berger. Of course, there is no one to ask.

[number_six]

On Wednesday, January 19, 2022 at 5:19:39 AM UTC-8, Frank Berger

>
> When considering changing the name from Begun, it's hard to imagine how they came up with Berger. Of course, there is no one to ask.

Like that big band standard "Berger the Begun"?

[Frank Berger]

LOL!

My father used to say were were the past participle of Menachem Begin.

When doing some genealogy, I came across a guy named Begoon, whose name had been Begun. So I speculate that the family name was pronounced that way in Belarus. On the ship manifest my great aunt spelled the name Beigun. I suppose any Belorussian can tell us the historic pronunciation.

Now my wife's maiden name is Gusinow, alternatively pronounced Goose-in-ow, Guz-in-ow, Goose-in-awe, or Guz-in-awe, take your pick. Now consider that it was probably Gusinoff or Gusinov or.....

[Frank Berger]

I come from a long line of draft dodgers, probably.

[Frank Berger]

On 1/19/2022 3:18 AM, Andy Evans wrote:i

> I wouldn't trust the Americans' pronunciation of European or indeed international names - they can be very misleading

Would you trust Europeans to pronounce Quoque or Aquebooque? How do you think the French would pronounce Boise?

. Examples - Eye-rak for Iraq, Kowsowvow for Kossovo. And Kowlin Powell for Colin etc etc. I suppose it's up to the family to choose how to say their name, but when the original is obvious it's still strange.
>

There are ignorant people everywhere. Personally, I've never heard any of those pronunciations except when TV shows want to show ignorant Republicans. And I lived in Texas for 30 years.

> For example singer Sara Bareilles appears to be pronounced "Barellis" in the USA, though it's clearly "Barey" in French.
>
> I would pronounce Leibowitz as "Lie - bovitz" following the German tradition that in the case of "ei" you pronounce the last vowel.
>

OK, Wikipedia disagrees. Seems to me if the name was supposed to be pronouced vitch or vic it would be spelled that way, not witz.

[Frank Berger]

On 1/19/2022 3:18 AM, Andy Evans wrote:

Besides, the only "correct" way to pronounce René Leibowitz's nane is the way he pronouced it.
n

[Andy Evans]

On Wednesday, 19 January 2022 at 22:01:22 UTC, Frank Berger wrote:
> Would you trust Europeans to pronounce Quoque or Aquebooque? How do you think the French would pronounce Boise?

The French would pronounce it "bwazay" meaning "wooded".

I have to be honest and say that the English were one of the worst nations for distorting native names. Calcutta for Kolkata , Peking for Beijing, etc etc.

But since Jesus himself was a notorious name changer, I guess we had a role model......

"Your name is Simon? Right, I shall call you Peter...."

[Bob Harper]

On 1/19/22 1:07 AM, Andrew Clarke wrote:
(snip)

> Maybe they changed the pronunciation after the USA entered the First World War? In South Australia, there were a considerable number of German Lutheran immigrants, and although there was no Lake Wobegon there were several towns with German names that changed them to more English ones during that conflict. Petersburg, then an important railway town, became Peterborough for example, although there are no longer any trains in South Australia outside the Adelaide area, apart from the Sydney-Perth 'Indian Pacific' that runs through Peterborough without stopping, and the Adelaide-Darwin "The Ghan" which doesn't go through Peterborough at all.

My wife is from North Central Wisconsin, and is of 100% German
extraction (Pomerania and northern Bavaria). The cemetery near her home
contains a number of headstones from before WW I, which list dates as
'Geb.' (born) and 'Gestorb.' (died). Those deaths postdating WW I read
'Born' and 'Died', and are anglicized; König became King, and her last
name changed from Bergmann to Bergman.True lots of other places, I suspect.

Bob Harper

[Bob Harper]

But not until Matthew 16:18. And He had His reasons :)

Bob Hardper

[Frank Berger]

On 1/19/2022 5:26 PM, Andy Evans wrote:
> On Wednesday, 19 January 2022 at 22:01:22 UTC, Frank Berger wrote:
>> Would you trust Europeans to pronounce Quoque or Aquebooque? How do you think the French would pronounce Boise?
>
> The French would pronounce it "bwazay" meaning "wooded".
>

Only if the final e had an accent aigu. Otherwise Bwazz.

> I have to be honest and say that the English were one of the worst nations for distorting native names. Calcutta for Kolkata , Peking for Beijing, etc etc.
>

The ruled everything. They could do whatever they wanted. And since they were and are insufferably ethnocentric and had no respect for the natives they dominated they saw no need for accuracy. I don't know if any of that is true. I'm trolling our local anglophile.

> But since Jesus himself was a notorious name changer, I guess we had a role model......
>
> "Your name is Simon? Right, I shall call you Peter...."
>

God himself changed Jacob to Israel. You have been one-upped.

[number_six]

On Wednesday, January 19, 2022 at 1:42:17 PM UTC-8, Frank Berger wrote:
> On 1/19/2022 4:30 PM, number_six wrote:
> > On Wednesday, January 19, 2022 at 5:19:39 AM UTC-8, Frank Berger
> >>
> >> When considering changing the name from Begun, it's hard to imagine how they came up with Berger. Of course, there is no one to ask.
> >
> > Like that big band standard "Berger the Begun"?
> LOL!
>

> My father used to say we were the past participle of Menachem Begin.
>
Good one. To add on, Begin is irregular verb, since in one case it conjugates to "Irgun"!

[Frank Berger]

Interesting. I had great-grandparent named Koenigsfest (King's festival, I guess), who emigrated to the U.S. from Latvia around 1920. 3 of the Koenigsfest children changed their name to King and the fourth to Koenig. Much of the Latvian Jewish community had "originated" in East Prussia. From what I understand, they were proud of their German heritage. They were totally secular. My great great grandmother came over as well. I have been told her tombstone is entirely in German. I have not seen it.

[Andrew Clarke]

There are quite a few Indians who still say Bombay, Calcutta and Bangalore. They do this because they think that the present Indian federal government should have better things to do with its time than fiddling about with the names of cities.
It amuses me when Indians tell me that Bombay 'is what the British called it". It's actually a corruption of what the Portuguese called it, Bom Bahia (Beautiful Bay) and was a purely British creation in that there was nothing there before. Mumbai is the name in Marathi.

Ditto Kolkata. This was originally three villages on the Hoogly River: the present city was essentially a British creation. Kolkata is its name in Bengali.

Meanwhile the situation for India's minority Moslems and Christians is getting less and less tolerable. Never mind, the ruling Hindu nationalist party and some of its extreme supporters can always blame British 'divide and rule' for the resulting violence and murder. They usually do.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra