Re: KV 491

[HT]

Op maandag 31 mei 2021 om 04:18:22 UTC+2 schreef dan....@gmail.com:
> This is a long weekend in the US,
> so we have an extra quiz. This
> one is so easy even Melmoth
> knows the answer! In fact, he
> probably knows more answers
> than he can remember!
>
> This is my favorite Mozart Piano
> PC.
>
> dk

Can only be:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWVUvqaf9AE

Henk

[Ricardo Jimenez]

On Sun, 30 May 2021 19:18:19 -0700 (PDT), Dan Koren
<dan....@gmail.com> wrote:

>This is a long weekend in the US,
>so we have an extra quiz. This
>one is so easy even Melmoth
>knows the answer! In fact, he
>probably knows more answers
>than he can remember!
>
>This is my favorite Mozart Piano
>PC.
>
>dk

Glen Gould, whose performance of this work with Bernstein is on
Youtube, said about KV 491:
“has had a rather better press than it deserves, I think. Despite it’s
gently swooning melodies, its meticulously balanced cadences, despite
its stable and architecturally unexceptionable form, I’m going to
submit it as a good example of why I think Mozart, especially in his
later years, was not a very good composer.”
https://www.openculture.com/2020/10/glenn-gould-explains-why-mozart-was-a-bad-composer-in-a-controversial-public-tv-show-1968.html

Is the tape of the TV show available anywhere online?

[Ricardo Jimenez]

I found it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pR74rorRxs

[Ricardo Jimenez]

On Mon, 31 May 2021 09:47:18 -0700 (PDT), Dan Koren
<dan....@gmail.com> wrote:

>Brainfucked imbecile.
>
>dk

A more extensive rebuttal is here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LO4GtfSgp2E

I am not completely unsympathetic to some of the points Gould is
making. It seems to me that what the orchestra is doing (woodwinds
especially) is often more interesting then what the piano is doing in
Mozart concertos.

[Mandryka]

I think Gould is right about the first movement. The last time I heard this music was a quite a few years ago, Anderszewski - I was really impressed by the orchestra.

[Ricardo Jimenez]

On Mon, 31 May 2021 11:59:47 -0700 (PDT), Dan Koren
<dan....@gmail.com> wrote:

>Writing music is not an engineering
>project. Speculation about how works
>of art are deficient or how they could
>be improved if written differently is a
>symptom of arrogance and ignorance.

It certainly has some elements in common with engineering; both use
scientific principles to create objects. I regard music theory as
part of science. I am totally baffled by your second sentence. If
you want to express why you don't like something a composer wrote,
what else can you do besides sputtering curses?

[Todd Michel McComb]

In article <03bf58d8-df33-422f...@googlegroups.com>,
Dan Koren <dan....@gmail.com> wrote:
>Just say you don't like it. Any attempt to rationalize is ipso
>facto an attempt to objectivize.

But you've elided conversation. Which is funny since you say all
sorts of things about why you don't like something.

[Todd Michel McComb]

In article <db600665-f00b-495d...@googlegroups.com>,
Dan Koren <dan....@gmail.com> wrote:
>Unlike other posters here however, I never invoke music theory,
>or any other formal frameworks, to justify my taste.

But if the formal frameworks are arbitrary in the first place, they
hold no real power. Rather, they're simply other possible ways to
talk about music.

>I never claim music should be written like this or like that. See
>the difference?

I will need a better example of this difference than what Ricardo
just said.

>When Ricardo states that music uses scientific principles to create
>objects, he is effectively saying "look, there is a sound way to
>build this work, and less sound ones",

Maybe that's what it says to you.... But there are "musical objects"
& there are "scientific principles" involved in making them. These
things exist in a variety of relations.

>... opening the door to discussions about how he, or anyone else,
>might rewrite Chopin's piano concerti, or whatever else.

And this, to you, would be heresy I suppose.... ;-)

(For me, it would simply be boring. Probably.)

[Frank Berger]

Is it possible there is no CD transfer of this?

[MELMOTH]

Dan Koren a formulé la demande :
> GG was a brainfucked imbecile.

Gould is one of the greatest and most original ARTISTS (and pianist) of
the 20th century...
It would be pertinent if you would stop writing bullshit over and over
again, eh...It's getting tedious and tiring, koko...And it's far from
ensuring your credibility...
Fortunately, ridicule does not kill...You would then be 100 feet under
the ground for centuries...

[MELMOTH]

Dan Koren avait prétendu :
> If ridicule killed, France would have
> disappeared from the map a long
> time ago.

OK...So why did you come to France so often...And why do you speak
French ?...I ask the questions...

[MELMOTH]

Dan Koren avait écrit le 01/06/2021 :
> And of course
> to buy records or CDs at the FNAC
> as well as cheese. ;-)

FNACs are no longer what they were in the 60s to 80s !...

[MELMOTH]

Il se trouve que Dan Koren a formulé :
> Not that often lately. I used to
> travel to France during the 1990s
> and 2000s for business, shopping,
> and to visit friends. And of course

> to buy records or CDs at the FNAC
> as well as cheese. ;-)

I only went twice to the USA : the first time in 1975 in LA, to meet
Henry Miller (with whom I had a regular correspondence for a few years
!)...One of the strongest moments of my life, without any doubt...
The second time in Chicago for work (seminar on pork production)...

[Frank Berger]

I've lived in the U.S. for 73 years and it never occurred to me to do either!

[Herman]

Yeah, well, the French have a penchant for slightly outré literature. Of course Nabokov's Lolita was first published in Paris, as was Joyce's Ulysses.

[Frank Berger]

Oh, I was thoroughly, thoroughly familiar with "Tropic of Cancer" in my teens (wink, wink, nod, nod). I love Nabakov, but have not been able to tackle "Ulysses."

[Bob Harper]

I did. I prefer Homer's take.

Bob Harper

[Alan Cooper]

On Sunday, June 6, 2021 at 12:29:34 PM UTC-4, Marc S wrote:

> > In regards to op 16: All recs were very nice. I think for me Horowitz and Ryumina take the cake, but as I said I still have to get more acquainted with Schumann's op 16 and my opinion might change. So I think I shouldn't rate further... Sofronitsky is also super nice, but I'm not sure if I would choose it as a reference. Listened to his Papillon as well, great as well, but same problem. I think I prefer Richter here. Especially because of the last movement. Listened to Arrau and Cortot doing the last movement... omg... very bad really. Any Papillon recs?
> *Papillons, sorry

I agree with you about the excellence of Sofronitsky in Papillons (in spite of poor recorded sound) and the awfulness of Arrau and Cortot (fuss fuss fuss). So I don't hesitate to recommend Fou Ts'ong, Eric Le Sage, and Nelson Freire as next steps. Or do you know them already?

AC

[Mandryka]

Some romantic effusion with Cupid Stunt standards of taste, Tzimon Barto maybe.

[Mandryka]

On Monday, June 7, 2021 at 3:12:05 PM UTC+1, Mandryka wrote:
> Some romantic effusion with Cupid Stunt standards of taste, Tzimon Barto maybe.

Or Émile Naoumoff.

[Mandryka]

On Monday, June 7, 2021 at 3:12:05 PM UTC+1, Mandryka wrote:

> Some romantic effusion with Cupid Stunt standards of taste, Tzimon Barto maybe.

Or Vitalij Margulis.

[Frank Berger]

On 6/7/2021 7:39 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
> On Monday, June 7, 2021 at 7:19:21 PM UTC-4, Dan Koren wrote:

>> On Monday, June 7, 2021 at 10:12:05 AM UTC-4, Mandryka wrote:
>>> Some romantic effusion with Cupid Stunt
>>> standards of taste, Tzimon Barto maybe.

>> I find it quite interesting. It is a different
>> approach, it makes sense and it holds
>> together from the beginning to the end.
>> And the candenzas are quite remarkable!
>>
>> Obviously, the Brendullians and the
>> Boringboimians and the Perrahians
>> among us will not like it. What else
>> is new?
>
> Sorry I forgot to mention the
> Pollinians and the Serkiners.
>
> dk
>

Is there really a Barto KV491, or was that theoretical? I couldn't find any reference to it?

[MELMOTH]

Dan Koren a émis l'idée suivante :

> Sorry I forgot to mention the
> Pollinians and the Serkiners.

You especially forgot the *korenians*...

[richard...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, June 1, 2021 at 11:21:39 AM UTC-4, Frank Berger wrote:
> On 6/1/2021 10:52 AM, Herman wrote:
> > On Tuesday, June 1, 2021 at 3:32:45 PM UTC+2, Frank Berger wrote:
> >> On 6/1/2021 6:09 AM, MELMOTH wrote:
> >>> Il se trouve que Dan Koren a formulé :
> >>>> Not that often lately. I used to
> >>>> travel to France during the 1990s
> >>>> and 2000s for business, shopping,
> >>>> and to visit friends. And of course
> >>>> to buy records or CDs at the FNAC
> >>>> as well as cheese. ;-)
> >>>
> >>> I only went twice to the USA : the first time in 1975 in LA, to meet Henry Miller (with whom I had a regular correspondence for a few years !)...One of the strongest moments of my life, without any doubt...
> >>> The second time in Chicago for work (seminar on pork production)...
> >>>
> >> I've lived in the U.S. for 73 years and it never occurred to me to do either!
> >
> > Yeah, well, the French have a penchant for slightly outré literature. Of course Nabokov's Lolita was first published in Paris, as was Joyce's Ulysses.
> >
> Oh, I was thoroughly, thoroughly familiar with "Tropic of Cancer" in my teens (wink, wink, nod, nod). I love Nabakov, but have not been able to tackle "Ulysses."

[Mandryka]

On Tuesday, June 8, 2021 at 1:27:56 AM UTC+1, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, June 7, 2021 at 10:12:05 AM UTC-4, Mandryka wrote:
> > Some romantic effusion with Cupid Stunt
> > standards of taste, Tzimon Barto maybe.
> Do you like this one better?
>
> https://www.dropbox.com/sh/c2yxxmyox6okue4/AAAUuBf-kDx0zdRhueB6i-vpa?dl=0
>
> dk

Thanks for this Dan -- just saw it and have started to listen. I like it so far!

[Al Eisner]

On Tue, 8 Jun 2021, Marc S wrote:

> cooper...@gmail.com schrieb am Sonntag, 6. Juni 2021 um 19:26:08 UTC+2:
>> I agree with you about the excellence of Sofronitsky in Papillons (in spite of poor recorded sound) and the awfulness of Arrau and Cortot (fuss fuss fuss). So I don't hesitate to recommend Fou Ts'ong, Eric Le Sage, and Nelson Freire as next steps. Or do you know them already?
>>
>> AC
>
> I listened to them (not in one go). They certainly are better than Arrau and Cortot but fall way short against Richter and Sofronitsky (as you probably agree?). I think I like Richter the most here... especially because of the ending. Sofronitsky is great too though.

Not wanting to speak for AC, but why should agree? This is plainly
a matter of taste, whereas youoften seem to be trying for absolutes.
Personally, I think Freire in particular gets the essential lightness
of the work right (it is, after all, titled Butterflies, and that he
is unsurpassed. (Richter does something rather different.) Of course
Sofronitzky's is another fine performance.

--
Al Eisner

[MELMOTH]

Il se trouve que Dan Koren a formulé :

> Please note
> that I HATE HASKIL!

If I were you, I wouldn't brag about it!...