Tchaikovsky symphonies - Bernstein/DG
normanstrong
NYPO. The most "interesting" of the 3 is the 6th, which has a super
slow 1st movement. I imagine this is the type of performance that one
either loves or hates. I'm slowly moving from hates to loves. Does
anyone else that owns this recording have a comment on the tempo?
Cheers,
Norm Strong
David Hurwitz
It is the last movement, and not the first, which is "super slow." It is one of
Bernstein's greatest recordings, and one of the few instances where his late
penchant for exaggeratedly slow tempos actually works well. The point here is
not that the tempo is particularly slow, but that the finale effectively
balances the weight of the first movement; this symphony is always problematic
in that the finale often comes as an anti-climax, particularly when most
conductors and orchestras understandably play the third movement march for all
that it's worth. Aside from its emotional qualities, I believe that Bernstein
offers a uniquely successful solution to the symphony's formal and structural
challenges, and that far from being an exercise if self-indulgence, this
particular interpretation is especially well planned and intelligent.
As to the other symphonies, the Fourth is surprisingly sober, even dignified,
and again different from what one might expect, but it certainly takes the music
seriously. And it's extremely well played. The Fifth is terrible; it sounds like
it was patched together from a bunch of concerts in which Bernstein adopted
wildly varying tempos and so no coherent view of the work was possible.
Dave Hurwitz
Commspkmn
<< It is the last movement, and not the first, which is "super slow." It is one
of
Bernstein's greatest recordings, and one of the few instances where his late
penchant for exaggeratedly slow tempos actually works well. The point here is
not that the tempo is particularly slow, but that the finale effectively
balances the weight of the first movement; >>
I share David's enthusiasm for this recording and for Bernstein's
intepretation. I also saw Bernstein conduct the "Pathetique" at Tanglewood
with a similarly broad finale, and it worked for me on that occasion as well.
OTOH, I find more "standard" approaches to the finale equally convincing. The
relative brevity of the movement doesn't bother me, as long as it is played
with appropriate conviction and fire.
Best,
Ken
deac...@yahoo.com
Not sure which DG set this is. I do remember the raised eyebrows when
I pushed for the Bernstein Tchaikovsky 6 for Panorama on DG. They
were more used to seeing HvK's name, you see. The good folk at DG
don't recognize sometimes the value of what they have in their vaults.
Bernstein's reading is a real statement about the music, something
extremely rare in the recording business, which tends to like
efficiency and a lack of controversy.
TD
mbbb
I regret that 15 years of occasional listening have not improved my opinion
of this Pathetique.
It is the equivalent of an actor hamming it up, interesting on first hearing
but on repetition it proves very tiresome. The impact of the final climax
and subsequent collapse into nothingness is lessened by the extreme tempo,
the mood and tempo through the movement being too uniform.
I think Mravinsky is exceptional in this work and return to his
performances often.
Whilst the tempo of the finale is very slow, the first movement is also
slower than any I have heard.
Malcolm Babb
David Hurwitz
>but on repetition it proves very tiresome.
I can see how some might feel that way, but I'm not sure about the "actor
hamming it up" part. The in fact, that seems to contradict your observation
below; after all, "hamming" (or the musical equivalent) would not produce a
uniform mood and tempo--just the opposite, rather.
The impact of the final climax
>and subsequent collapse into nothingness is lessened by the extreme tempo,
>the mood and tempo through the movement being too uniform.
>
Again, I find sustained intensity rather than "uniform mood and tempo" (while
also, as you, enjoying Mravinsky and many other versions as well). I might also
add that I think this entire movement is one of "uniform mood and tempo"--I
don't think that fast performances have more emotional "variety" by virtue of
being faster--they just get it over with quicker.
Dave Hurwitz
MIFrost
just as I thought it should have always been played. The first movement is
quite slow, I think, though not "super slow," I suppose. But that very
dramatic passage where the music goes up and up and up, looks over the
precipice and plunges headlong over the edge is so angst-ridden it wipes me
out. Then there's the long pause before the basses come in and then finally
the very slow end to the movement. He wrings every drop of pathos out of
this movement, and the whole work too.
MIFrost
"David Hurwitz" <David_...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
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Mark Perlman
it, one cannot be neutral about it. But either way, one has to admire the
superb patience and control that it took to do it that way. The only two
conductors I know of who could achieve that are Bernstein (in his later
years) and Celibidache (in his later years). Maybe you have to be an old man
to manage such control and not get impatient.
- Mark Perlman
"normanstrong" <norman...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:Pj%ab.392606$Oz4.178567@rwcrnsc54...
Frank Newman
> It is the last movement, and not the first, which is "super slow." It is one of
> Bernstein's greatest recordings, and one of the few instances where his late
> penchant for exaggeratedly slow tempos actually works well.
I've always wondered, though, if the criticisms of Bernstein's slow tempi in his
later recordings are somewhat exaggerated. These recordings have always struck
me as appeals to listeners to hear or experience these pieces quite differently.
What they may lack in immediate appeal (or may continue to lack even after
repeated hearings) may tell us a lot about our own listening practices: to what
extent are we willing to indulge the performer and allow him or her to bring
out aspects of a score that we might otherwise take for granted? In Bernstein's
case (and I think similar arguments could be made about other performers routinely
excoriated for idiosyncratic performances--Boulez, Gould, and even Furtwaengler
immediately come to mind), perhaps the way to listen to these is to recognize
the "otherness" or strangeness of these performances from the outset an then
to begin asking the questions that allow us to grasp them.
That said, I'll admit that I've vacillated between admiration and exasperation
over the later Bernstein performances. Sometimes the slow tempi are simply dull.
I've never cared much for his late Sibelius 2, but I think his Sibelius 1, 5, and
7 are among the most compelling interpretations I've ever heard of these works.
I've also been quite fond of his Tristan and late Bruckner 9th, but recently
I've grown somewhat lukewarm towards these recordings (perhaps because I've recently
been drawn to somewhat more fleet readings? I'm not sure. Right now Furtwaengler's
Bruckner 9 ranks as my favorite.)
And, while I'm at it, let me bring in other performers: I've found that Boulez's
Mahler recordings frequently appeal to me when I listen to them according to the
premises he seems to bring to his interpretation: a marked tendency in favor of
Stravinskian "execution" (as opposed to "interpretation"--a false dichotomy, BTW)
and "ontological time." This has been particularly true of my hearings of Boulez's
DG Mahler 7th recording. As an act of historiography, these performances strike
me as Boulez's representations of the pre-history his own activities as a performer
and composer (and, for that matter, perhaps the same argument could be made for
Bernstein's recordings). Likewise, I'm drawn to Gould's "perverse" recordings
of the Mozart sonatas (perhaps because of their "Entfremdungseffekt").
I suppose one could argue that some of these performances "fail" because the performer
isn't adequately putting his point across. But few performances are total failures
are they?
Just my $0.02
Frank
Curtis Croulet
Sixth is somewhat similar. This is one of those pieces that I don't quite
"get."
--
Curtis Croulet
Temecula, California
33° 27'59"N, 117° 05' 53"W
Dan Koren
news:l4adndWtGcJ...@comcast.com...
>
> The last movement of the 6th is dirge slow. Whether one
> loves it or haters it, one cannot be neutral about it.
> But either way, one has to admire the superb patience
> and control that it took to do it that way. The only
> two conductors I know of who could achieve that are
> Bernstein (in his later years) and Celibidache (in
> his later years). Maybe you have to be an old man
> to manage such control and not get impatient.
>
Celi's Pathetique (and R&J and FdR BTW) were always
slower than most, even in his younger years (check
the RAI recordings).
BTW, except for few exceptions like Bernstein and
Mengelberg, Celi is the only conductor who truly
understands Tchaikovsky.
dk
Marc Perman
"Dan Koren" <dank...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3f79...@news.meer.net...
> BTW, except for few exceptions like Bernstein and
> Mengelberg, Celi is the only conductor who truly
> understands Tchaikovsky.
Now I can free up some shelf space by dumping Mravinsky, Monteux,
Cantelli, Rodzinski, Svetlanov, Fedotov, Fricsay, Koussevitzky,
and Markevitch. Thanks.
Marc Perman
Dan Koren
news:ZGoeb.7926$q71....@twister.nyc.rr.com...
Yes indeed. Please proceed at the
earliest opportunity. There isn't
a single Romeo and Juliet on record
that comes close to Celibidache's,
or a single Pathetique -- and that
pretty much sums it.
dk
Marc Perman
Are the other symphonies and shorter orchestral works not worth
bothering with?
Marc Perman
Doru Ionescu
> Are the other symphonies and shorter orchestral works not worth
> bothering with?
>
The Second with BPO from 1950 is simply delicious, full of humour and
in the same time very well constructed.
But you have an even better choice. The Fifth, part of the first EMI
set, is , IMHO, the best Tchaikovsky ever. The orchestral playing has
a polish and precision you won't find on any other modern recordings,
especially the strings. The brass are incisive, refined and invariably
thrilling. The woodwinds add unexpected splashes of color. Above all
is Celi's conception about how to perform a Tchaikovsky symphony. No
more exaggerations or hysterics, the atributes of bad taste, as once
Klemperer said.
Doru Ionescu