Favorite Verdi recordings
MIFrost
care to list their favorite recordings? So far I've been listening to de los
Angeles' La Traviata and Price/Domingo/Mehta's Il Trovatore. I've tried Aida
in the past and been unable to warm to it. I took my daughter to the
Broadway Aida (Disney) a couple of years ago and when I listen to the opera
I "see" that stage production in my mind's eye. Ugh!
MIFrost
David7Gable
The incomparable last act of Luisa Miller is, for my money, the first sustained
peak in Verdi's production. (The four operas he wrote after Luisa are
Stiffelio, Rigoletto, Trovatore, and Traviata.) My favorite recording is the
RCA recording with Moffo, Verrett, Bergonzi, MacNeil, Tozzi, and Flagello,
every one of whom is in spectacular voice, with Fausto Cleva conducting. This
is the best performance Moffo ever gave of anything.
My favorite Rigoletto is the RCA recording with Berger, Merriman, Peerce,
Warren, Tajo, and Renato Cellini. On the basis of this performance, I think
Cellini was one of the great Verdi conductors, although I have heard less
exalted performances from him than this one. He's as propulsive as Toscanini
but more nuanced and flexible. Everyone here is in terrific voice (although
not everybody likes Peerce's voice as much as I do). Berger is a well nigh
ideal Gilda with the most flawless vocal technique imaginable and, more
important, she's a deeply expressive singer. Tajo all but steals the show as
an extremely characterful Sparafucile. Warren is the real deal in the title
role, with a big fat juicy authentic Verdi baritone voice. More important, he,
too, is a very moving and expressive singer. There was always more to Warren
than the voice, and I don't find him any less persuasive as Rigoletto than Tito
Gobbi. (Naxos has released a terrific Met broadcast of Rigoletto from the 40's
with Bjoerling and Warren.)
Just to show you how perverse I can be, another favorite of mine is the
Rigoletto with Gueden, Simionato, Del Monaco, Protti, and Siepi with Erede
conducting. The standing blot on this set is Del Monaco's loud, coarse, crude,
and sloppy Duke of Mantua. He's badly miscast as the Duke of Mantua and ruins
every movement he sings in. But Gueden is my favorite recorded Gilda. I find
her even more moving than Berger. Erede is not in a league with Renato Cellini
(or Rafael Kubelik, for that matter), but this is one of his better conducted
Verdi performances. If you can listen past the hideous voice and wooly vocal
production--and most people can't--Protti is one of the best Rigoletto's on
record. Often subtle, he's musical, expressive, and thoroughly involved in his
role. As far as I'm concerned, the names Simionato and Siepi are
self-recommending. They're musical (unlike Del Monaco) and have temperament
galore. I don't think they quite scale the heights of Merriman and especially
Tajo for Cellini, though. I bought this set for Gueden. I keep it for Gueden,
Protti, and even Erede.
My favorite Trovatore would be created by taking either of these recordings:
Milanov, Barbieri, Bjoerling, Warren, Cellini
Price, Elias, Tucker, Warren, Basile
and either (a) removing Milanov from the first and replacing her with Price
from the second or (b) removing Tucker from the second and replacing him with
Bjoerling from the first. The worst of the ten performances listed is
Milanov's. For my money, this recording was made too late in her career. Her
pitch sags, she drags behind the beat, and she altogether disappoints. Her
voice does not blend particularly well with Bjoerling's or Warren's either.
Bjoerling strikes me as the most perfect Manrico in every way. Tucker is less
of a liability than Milanov, but he, too, was well past his best singing when
the second of these sets was recorded. He sings with a lot of conviction if no
great subtlety, and he doesn't sag below the pitch or lag behind the beat as
Milanov does, but there's a lot of strain audible in his production and the
voice is less opulent than it had been a decade earlier. Warren is in fresher
voice in the earlier set but turns in characteristic performances in both. The
young Leontyne Price is a blazing glory. Cellini is the more nuanced
conductor, but both Cellini and Basile whip up frenzy after frenzy. (I dislike
the Mehta set with Price, Cossotto, Domingo, and Milnes, mainly because of
Mehta's dull conducting. Fans of big fat rich and juicy voices will not be
disappointed by Cossotto, Domingo, or Milnes, though.)
I have multiple recordings of Traviata, admiring specific things about each of
them, but I wouldn't even begin to try to pick a favorite or recommend one
overall. I think the best conducted Traviata I've ever heard is
Tebaldi/Molinari-Pradelli (Decca). But I prefer Albanese, de los Angeles,
Callas, and Scotto to Tebaldi in the title role. One recording I don't
recommend is Moffo/Tucker/Merrill/Previtali. The conductor is a real saboteur,
erratic in the extreme. Moffo is pretty good and turns in a characteristic
performance, but she doesn't give the performance of a lifetime as she does in
Luisa, and the competition is stiff. I also find Tucker and Merrill past their
primes. Besides, Merrill was never the world's most musical or expressive
singer. Beautiful voice, though.
I'm duty-bound to add that I find Carlos Kleiber's Traviata an overrated
travesty lead by a conductor without a clue how to conduct an oom-pah-pah
accompaniment or shape a Verdi phrase. Anybody who complains of the Toscanini
straitjacket and then endorses this set is either a hypocrite or secretly finds
Toscanini's staitjacket too loose.
Toscanini is far from my favorite conductor of Italian opera, but I've never
heard a Verdi peformance from him I didn't like (except possibly the Traviata
that he himself had reservations about: the dress rehearsal the day before was
much better and more relaxed.) I love Toscanini's recordings of Ballo and
Falstaff, and his recordings of these operas are my favorites, although in the
case of Falstaff that's partly faute de mieux. People like to bash Toscanini
over the head with Herva Nelli, who sang in the Toscanini NBC broadcasts of
Ballo, Aida, Otello, Falstaff, and the Requiem. Her voice isn't big enough for
the role of Aida, but otherwise I find her a major asset. Certainly not a
conventionally beautiful instrument, and I know she gives some of the
Italian-opera-is-all-about-big-fat-beautiful-voices crowd apoplexy, but nobody
has ever exhibited more temperament or sung with greater conviction and
musicality. If you think Sutherland is the ne plus ultra of sopranos--I think
she's technically dazzling but an almost total bore--you may not like Herva
Nelli.
I should add that what I don't like about Karajan's Falstaff is that the
opera's very few moments of lyric expression pass for nothing. If you were
afraid Fluffy would over-milk them, you are sadly mistaken. Otherwise, his
tempi are mainly faster than Toscanini's and his cast is terrific.
My favorite Simon Boccanegra is emphatically not the Abbado set on DGG
everybody else is going to recommend, decent as it is. Compared to the
competition, Cappucilli, Freni, and Abbado are simply too bland. I would be
hard pressed, though, to choose between the ancient Cetra set (currently
available dirt cheap on Warner) with Stella, Bergonzi, Silveri, Petri, and
Molinari-Pradelli or the EMI set with de los Angeles, Campora, Gobbi,
Christoff, and Santini. Both are much more distinctively conducted than
Abbado's. Stella is the main liability in the Cetra set: she's actually
rather decent and reasonably expressive but no de los Angeles. The men are
incomparable, though. De los Angeles and Gobbi stike me as being as good as it
gets in the Santini set, but Campora and Christoff are not in the same league.
-david gable
Todd Kay
>I've recently begun listening to some Verdi and enjoying what I hear. Anyone
>care to list their favorite recordings?
I may not have time at the moment to write *about* them in detail that would do
justice to them, but...
FALSTAFF: Karajan I/EMI. I know Mr. Gable's complaint about the treatment of
the lyric moments in this set, but I hear them differently -- I actually
*appreciate* that Karajan resists the temptation to squeeze them or make more
of them, and I find these passages an asset rather than a debit. Too many
conductors, Bernstein being one recorded offender, inflate the young lovers'
music into a syrupy-sticky confection as if to reward us unwashed listeners
with some ripe Italianate romantic goo for sitting still and concentrating our
minds during the brisk declamatory/exclamatory material so prevalent in the
surrounding score. Karajan and the Philharmonia are better than most at subtly
making the point that time is passing for the young lovers too; that their
sweet stolen moments are nevertheless *moments*, for all their sweetness -- a
faintly enticing scent on the breeze; something [youth?] vanishing almost as
quickly as it can be grasped and appreciated. I find the "plainness" of those
passages in the Karajan set, their understated, chaste beauty, a valid choice
in a work that I understand as essentially autumnal and bittersweet, for all
its flashing wit and knockabout humor. This remains the most consistently well
sung and conducted set I've heard, the one that best captures the buoyancy,
humor and wisdom of the work. The most recent (GROC) remastering is an
astonishing improvement on the botch job done by EMI a decade earlier. Possibly
my favorite recording of any Verdi opera.
And...so much for being pressed for time, eh?
OTELLO: I still haven't found one with which I'm entirely happy. Del Monaco is
too coarse and braying to be my ideal Otello, but I savor much of what is going
on around him in the 1961 Decca with Tebaldi and the underrated Protti,
conducted by Karajan, not least including Culshaw's bang-up production job. I
wouldn't want to be without the early Domingos: the live Kleiber performance
with Freni and Cappuccilli on Myto or M&A, or the RCA studio recording with
Scotto and Milnes under Levine's direction.
AIDA: Muti's thrilling EMI recording with Caballe, Domingo, Cossotto, Ghiaurov,
and Cappuccilli. I must speak up momentarily for Cossotto -- arguably better
remembered for her Azucena (TROVATORE), she was a born Amneris, here sounding
elegant and feminine, childish and spoiled, scheming and vindictive, and (late
in the game) guilty and repentant by turns.
DON CARLO(S): Again, everything I'd offer is a qualified recommendation, but
I'd go with Giulini/EMI for the five-act Italian edition (Raimondi and all),
Abbado/DG for the five-act French version (a comment as much about the
subsequent competition as about the recording itself, though it is valuable for
sheer comprehensiveness), and Karajan's '58 Salzburg performance with Jurinac,
Bastianini, Siepi, et al (DG) for a superb show that makes the four-act Italian
version sound a better idea than it should.
SIMON BOCCANEGRA: The Abbado (DG) and Santini (EMI References) recordings both
have their points. The Abbado remains my primary recommendation, in mind of its
sumptuous playing and vivid recorded sound, but I happily concede that Gobbi
for Santini is miles ahead of Cappuccilli (solid though he is) in his portayal
of the title role. On the other hand, Carreras's Gabriele for Abbado just as
soundly trumps Campora's for Santini. Freni and de los Angeles as Amelia seem
to me a virtual dead heat -- there are scenes that would move me to give the
nod to either of them (Freni, for example, in the big concertante piece that
climaxes the Council Chamber Scene, is freer and more evocative, even stirring,
in her phrasing of "pace," bringing to mind a searchlight sweeping down across
dark waters; but de los Angeles is surpassingly moving in the father/daughter
'recognition' duet). Too, the Fiescos (Fieschi?) of Ghiaruov and Christoff both
are intimidating, huge-voiced presences who mean every word they say
(Christoff's outbursts at Simon in the Prelude sound like a sentence to hell).
Abbado's conducting is plush and lyrical; I find Santini's efficient but
humdrum, and Santini's Rome orchestra cannot match the Scala's virtuosity. The
DG set also boasts the luxury casting of Jose van Dam as Paolo. And so on.
LA FORZA DEL DESTINO: One or the other of the studio recordings featuring
Leontyne Price's Leonora. She has more left in the tank than one might expect
in 1976 under Levine (but there is a wide range of opinion on this performance
-- comments I've read run the gamut from "the years have not touched Price's
voice" to "Price has no voice left"). Nevertheless, she was in clearly better
vocal estate for Schippers thirteen years earlier. I prefer Levine's cast on
the whole -- this is one of the best showings on record of the Domingo/Milnes
team, at their technical apogee, while Schippers has Tucker/Merrill approaching
their sell-by date. For Levine, Cossotto brings an interesting steely edge to
her portrayal of Preziosilla, which makes the character's annoying little idiot
songs (worse even than Riccardo's fisherman song in BALLO) a little easier to
abide.
UN BALLO IN MASCHERA: I haven't found a more charismatic Riccardo and Amelia
duo than Bergonzi and Price on RCA, and there are no true weak links in the
supporting cast (though I find Merrill dull, a not-uncommon reaction from me).
Leinsdorf's conducting, while not the most exciting, is judiciously balanced
and sensibly paced.
I VESPRI SICILIANI: Levine on RCA, with many of that label's usual suspects of
the era (Milnes, Domingo, Raimondi, et al). One of the better artifacts of
Martina Arroyo's abbreviated prime.
LA TRAVIATA: Cotrubas/Domingo/Milnes/Kleiber on DG for something "modern";
Callas/Di Stefano/Bastianini/Giulini on EMI if you don't mind peering through
the (sonic) murk and sludge to get to the captivating performance underneath.
IL TROVATORE: I could more strongly endorse the Mehta/RCA recording (which
seems to have emerged as something of a consensus choice in the stereo era),
for its enviable cast, if it weren't for the troubling distortion of the sound
whenever Price goes high or loud. For its relatively recent vintage (1969), it
really should sound better. But I don't know what *to* recommend in its place.
I will say that the most exciting performance I know is the Karajan Salzburg
('63?), which survives both Corelli's grandstanding and Simionato's audible
decline. Price and Bastianini have beauty and magnetism to spare, and Karajan's
conducting displays an electricity and verve he rarely equaled in middle Verdi,
for all that this opera was an apparent favorite of his.
RIGOLETTO: Again, as with CARLO and OTELLO, most of those I've heard leave me
wishing something could be removed or imported from another recording. The
Kubelik DG recording with Fischer-Dieskau, Scotto, Bergonzi (a treasurable
Duke), and the husband-and-wife team of Cossotto and Vinco as the assassins,
gets more of it right than most. Gobbi/Callas is essential for their
performances.
LUISA MILLER: Go with David Gable's recommendation of Moffo et al. But I will
add that the Caballe/Pavarotti/Maag recording on Decca too has its points.
MACBETH: Cossotto/Milnes/Carreras/Raimondi (a surprisingly effective Banquo)
for Muti on EMI.
ERNANI: Bergonzi/Price/Sereni/Flagello for Schippers on RCA.
========Todd Kay========
Richard Loeb
Nabucco - Gardelli, Gobbi, Souliotis
Macbeth - Muti, Milnes, Cossotto
Rigoletto - Kubelik, F-D, Scotto, Bergonzi
Trovatore- Cellini, Milanov, Warren, Bjoerling
Traviata - Callas, DiStefano, Giulini
Ballo - Gigli, Caniglia, Serafin
Forza - Caniglia, Masini, Stignani
Aida - Price, Gorr, Solti
Otello- Toscanini, Vinay, Valdengo
Falstaff - Toscanini, Valdengo, Nelli
Now other performances have points better than some of these; these are just
the ones I usually reach for when I'm in the mood for that opera so they
have staying power at least.
"Todd Kay" <tragikomisch, s...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020323170631...@mb-fk.aol.com...
Matthew B. Tepper
news:20020323170631...@mb-fk.aol.com:
> IL TROVATORE: I could more strongly endorse the Mehta/RCA recording
> (which seems to have emerged as something of a consensus choice in the
> stereo era), for its enviable cast, if it weren't for the troubling
> distortion of the sound whenever Price goes high or loud. For its
> relatively recent vintage (1969), it really should sound better. But I
> don't know what *to* recommend in its place. I will say that the most
> exciting performance I know is the Karajan Salzburg ('63?), which
> survives both Corelli's grandstanding and Simionato's audible decline.
> Price and Bastianini have beauty and magnetism to spare, and Karajan's
> conducting displays an electricity and verve he rarely equaled in
> middle Verdi, for all that this opera was an apparent favorite of his.
31 July 1962; it has been available as a DGG special import, also picked
up by Musical Heritage Society. It is one of the single most exciting
Verdi performances I have ever heard.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Top 3 worst UK exports: Mad-cow; Foot-and-mouth; Charlotte Church
Samir Golescu
David Gable wrote:
[great Verdi posting snipped]
I will archive this posting for further Verdi explorations -- thanks for
sharing out of your knowledge.
regards,
SG
(aren't you too tough on Kleiber, though? Not that there are not elements
in his "Traviata" that could be criticized as you do, but don't you take
the other extreme because irritated by the "hagiography"? just asking.)
Raymond Hall
news:20020323130354...@mb-fx.aol.com...
|
| The incomparable last act of Luisa Miller is, for my money, the first
sustained
| peak in Verdi's production. (The four operas he wrote after Luisa are
An excellent and informative post. Thanks David.
Regards,
# RMCR Contributor Links/Main Page :
# http://www.users.bigpond.com/hallraylily/index.html
< there is no such thing as a bad orchestra, only a bad conductor >: HvK
Ray, Sydney
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Raymond Hall
news:a7jasu$lutss$1...@ID-101911.news.dfncis.de...
| "David7Gable" <david...@aol.com> wrote in message
| news:20020323130354...@mb-fx.aol.com...
| |
| | The incomparable last act of Luisa Miller is, for my money, the first
| sustained
| | peak in Verdi's production. (The four operas he wrote after Luisa are
| |[snipped .....]
|
| An excellent and informative post. Thanks David.
|
thread before replying.
Regards,
# RMCR Contributor Links/Main Page :
# http://www.users.bigpond.com/hallraylily/index.html
< there is no such thing as a bad orchestra, only a bad conductor >: HvK
Krusty the Clown
JRsnfld
sustained
As usual, a very thorough and consistent view of Verdi singing and conducting
that has the right priorities, as far as I'm concerned. However, I'm
disappointed you didn't weigh in on Toscanini's Otello, Molinari-Pradelli's
Rigoletto, or a Mitropoulos La Forza, not to mention a Callas recording of La
Traviata. And where do you stand on Caballe in Muti's Aida?
--Jeff
MIFrost
Angeles/Serafin) was my one-and-only excursion into Verdi-land and I just
recently listened to (and fell in love with) Mehta's Il Trovatore. Hence, I
feel a operatic journey coming on. My written guideposts are, as usual for
me, ARG's Verdi Overview and The Metropolitan Opera's Guide to Recorded
Opera. Your opinions here, however, are most rewarding. I appreciate the
valuable time many have taken to give a cogent reply to my query.
MIFrost
David7Gable
"Doing nothing"--Todd Kay's own entirely accurate description of what Karajan
does in the brief slow lyric movements from Falstaff--is not the only
alternative to syrupy and exaggerated sentimentality, again to paraphrase
Mr.Kay. The alternative is to do something without turning Fenton and Nanetta
into Octavian and the Marschallin. Toscanini shapes these scenes to
perfection, and while Karajan's Alva clearly wins hands down over Toscanini's
Fenton, I still find his performance endearingly ingenuous.
My objection to Abbado's Boccanegra (and to a lesser extent Macbeth) is also
that he does nothing. Or at least too little. I heartily detest Verdi wiped
clean, no matter how virtuosic an ensemble the La Scala orchestra became in
Abbado's hands. Votto, Molinari-Pradelli, and Renato Cellini, not to mention
Gui and the young Serafin--even Toscanini--even Erede--knew better how to shape
Italian opera, understood better the kind of propulsion necessary for Italian
opera (a propulsion based at the very most immediate level on isorhythmic
accompanimental patterns rather than on harmonic rhythm), than the Abbado's and
Muti's (and Levine's) of our day. And they understood these things better than
those symphonic conductors who occasionally go slumming in the field of Italian
opera, Karajan, Solti, and Carlos Kleiber.
And as charming and attractive a personality Miss Freni has, as creamy as her
voice so often seems, I don't see how anybody can prefer her to Miss de los
Angeles as Amelia Grimaldi. They're both "artless" performers in the very best
sense of the word, but De los Angeles is so much more subtle and distinctive a
performer, has such greater depth. I agree with Mr. Kay about Carreras,
though: his fiery Adorno is easily the best thing about the Abbado Boccanegra
while Campora for Santini (the de los Angeles/Gobbi set) is not remotely in the
same league. (Bergonzi in the Cetra set is also terrific. But then the Cetra
set is a wonderful demonstration of the native Italian performance tradition of
the period in optimum health.) Although it's hard not to like the noises they
make, I find Christoff and Ghiaurov comparably crude as Fiesco. Ah, for a
commercial recording with Tozzi or Siepi in their primes. (Tozzi is Fiesco in
the live Boccanegra with Gencer and Gobbi.)
Jeff wanted me to weigh in on Callas's Violetta. Well, I like it. I just
don't like the performances it's embedded in. Not that I've heard them all,
but I've heard at least the old Cetra set, the famous live set with Di Stefano,
Bastianini, and Giulini, and the so-called Lisbon Traviata with Kraus. The old
Cetra set is well worth having for Callas's performance because the voice is
in such excellent condition. Giulini, I'm sorry to say, doesn't do it for me,
although he's decent enough and you can do far worse. Lisbon I listened to
once long ago and, Callas aside, it underwhelmed me.
As the world's only Molinari-Pradelli fan (well, other than Jeff), you would
think I could weigh in on his Rigoletto, but it's been so long since I've heard
it. The recordings by him that I most admire include (as I never tire of
saying) the earlier Decca L'elisir with Gueden and Di Stefano (as opposed to
the later one on EMI with Freni and Gedda), the Philips Don Pasquale, the Cetra
Boccanegra, and the Traviata on Decca with Tebaldi. In general, I think M-P
does better with old fashioned ooom-pah-pah Italian opera than with the more
symphonic continuity of later Verdi and Puccini, whereas I think precisely the
reverse of Solti, Karajan, and Carlos Kleiber. Not that I like Karajan's
Otello, but he certainly is more at ease, less clueless, there than in
Trovatore, and his contribution to the famous live Salzburg performance with
Price and Corelli strikes me as a real liability.
I think Jeff wanted to know my opinion of the Aida with Caballé, Cossotto,
Domingo, and Muti. Vocally, this set is sumptuous, of course, and nobody is a
snooze, which is to say nobody is entirely without temperament. But Caballé's
indiscriminate application of spun sugar diminuendo's to high notes, beautiful
as sound and impressive as vocal technique, is a liability precisely to the
degree that it's indiscriminate, a device for displaying the gorgeous
pianissimo's she's capable of in the upper register rather than a means to an
expressive end. Vocally, Cossotto and Domingo strike me as ideally suited to
Amneris and Radames, but I must confess that they just don't do enough for me.
I'll take Barbieri or Simionato over Cossotto any day of the weak. Muti is
pretty good, too, not yet as rigid and doctrinaire as he later became, but he's
still no Gui or (younger) Serafin. (I really don't know what my favorite Aida
would be. I love the final scene of the set with Milanov, Barbieri, Bjoerling,
Warren, and Perlea more than life itself, but elsewhere in the opera Milanov is
a real liability and Perlea, although he's not bad--he's more distinctive than
Karajan or Solti--is nevertheless not all that special.)
Without commentary, other commercial recordings of Verdi I like include:
Nabucco w/Suliotis, Gobbi, Gardelli (Decca)
Ernani w/Price, Bergonzi, Sereni, Flagello, Schippers (RCA)
Macbeth w/Rysanek, Bergonzi, Warren, Hines, Leinsdorf (RCA)
Rigoletto w/Scotto, Bergonzi, Fi-Di, Kubelik (DGG)
Ballo w/Price, Grist, Bergonzi, Merrill, Leinsdorf (RCA)
Otello w/Nelli, Vinay, Valdengo, Toscanini
Leinsdorf is the real surprise here. One might have expected him to belong to
the Karajan, Solti, C.Kleiber family of conductors who don't really grasp the
scansion of Italian opera. But he doesn't. On the basis of his Macbeth and
Ballo, he must have had some Italian blood in him. He's neither a Wagnerizer
(like Previtali in parts of Moffo's Traviata or Gavazzeni in parts of the
Ricciarelli/Domingo Boccanegra) nor the applier of a Muti-an straitjacket. His
performance of the slow 12/8 section at the very end of the scene at the
banquet where Macbeth sees Banco's ghost is an object lesson in the performance
of an oom-pah-pah accompaniment, and the degree of rubato he brings to the
climax of this concerted movement is just perfect.
I also like Solti's contribution to his first Otello and admire Carlos
Kleiber's La Scala Otello as much as I detest his ghastly misreading of
Traviata.
Two Traviata's I'm very curious to hear but haven't yet been able to justify
buying are the Stella/Di Stefano/Gobbi/Serafin and the
Carteri/Valetti/Warren/Monteux. Maybe when I win the lottery. I'm also
embarrased to admit that I've never heard the famous old Cetra Forza with
Caniglia et al, which so many think is the best. Now that it's available dirt
cheap (on Warner Fonit) I really should pick it up.
-david gable
Matthew B. Tepper
by Gavazzeni. It's misdated as 1969, but Henry Fogel thinks that's a typo
for 1959. Have you heard this, and if so what do you think of it?
Richard Loeb
"Matthew B. Tepper" <oy兀earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:flfn8.23$jK2....@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
MIFrost
This cast looks very promising. Ettore Bastianini had one of the most
beautiful baritone voices in the world, Renata Scotto had facility and
dramatic capacity, Alfredo Kraus is still noted for his elegance of style,
and Gianandrea Gavazzeni has done some lyrical work in other recordings.
Their performance here, however, is generally harsh, with first-rate voices
driven to provincial shouting. Bastianini begins with plenty of spirit; he
laughs at his own jokes and suggestions. Later, "Pari siamo" has a bitter,
ironic edge. The volume level, though, is *mezzo forte* and remains so:
soon, Renata Scotto and he are shouting at one another and at the end of
"Veglia, o donna" he drowns her out. "Piangi, fanciulla," and "Si, vendetta"
are rough and monochrome, and in Act III, he evinces not the slightest sense
of wonder or astonishment at the events disclosed: ultimately, a tiresome
performance.
Nor is Scotto well represented. She has a fine voice for the role: lyric
with a touch of the dramatic when she needs it. However, the shouting
produces rawness of voice and characterization. Alfredo Kraus is vocally
fine as the Duke: a little dry perhaps, but flexible and powerful enough.
"Questa o quella," though, is robbed of delight by its speed. Act II,
however, displays the singer's capacity for both anger and grace, and one
verse of "Possente amor" is reinstated. Fiorenza Cossotto is an excellent
Maddelena, with a telling upper register, rhythmic exactitude, and steady
tone. Conductor Gianandrea Gavazzeni begins with an exceptionally dramatic
Prelude -- and a rushed, humorless first act. Thereafter he takes many of
the cantabile sections too fast for full dramatic elaboration.
MIFrost
Matthew B. Tepper <oy兀earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:flfn8.23$jK2....@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Jaime J. Weinman
badly cast from top to bottom (Suliotis is not yet a train-wreck at
this point, but she's clearly a train-wreck waiting to happen). So
I'll reluctantly go with the Muti.
MACBETH -- Muti's was one of the first Verdi recordings I ever owned,
and I still find it very satisfying all-round.
LUISA MILLER -- The RCA/Cleva has no casting flaw, but I find Cleva
dull, the sound duller and the whole thing somewhat lacking in
dramatic impact (however you want to define that). So the work never
really "clicked" with me until I heard the Maag, which has plenty of
casting flaws (Caballe can't trill, Milnes is already past his prime,
and all the supporting singers were replacements for other,
better-known singers), but somehow comes together for me, mostly
because of Maag's conducting, which has a weight and colorfulness that
Cleva can't match -- why didn't Decca give Maag any other operatic
assignments after this?
RIGOLETTO -- Kubelik is close to unimpeachable if you can stand
Fischer-Dieskau in this rep (I can, and this is almost certainly his
best Italian opera recording).
TROVATORE -- I haven't heard one that really satisfies me. The Mehta
*would* be all-round satisfying if it didn't have Price and had better
sound.
TRAVIATA -- Kleiber (assuming I know what is meant by "no idea how to
conduct an oom-pah-pah accompaniment," I think that's just what I like
about his conducting; I *like* "symphonic" Verdi). Too bad about that
awful splice at the end of Domingo's cabaletta. Maazel has some of
the same virtues and better sound than the Kleiber, but his cast is
uneven and the omission of the vocal parts at the very end is a really
bad decision. Too bad there's no really first-class uncut version; if
I had a gun to my head I'd take Pritchard/Sutherland (dull conducting,
but great vocalism, and it's cheap) to supplement a cut version.
BOCCANEGRA -- Abbado will have to do; some older recordings are more
vital, but none of them have conducting or sound that bring out the
power of the orchestral writing in this opera (I was introduced to the
piece via the Santini, and as usual with Santini, I barely knew there
*was* an orchestra there).
BALLO IN MASCHERA -- I was brought up on the Leinsdorf, but I came to
be bothered by the conducting, which is sensible, measured and devoid
of excitement (he makes almost nothing of the brutal chords
introducing Ulrica's
scene, for example). For conducting, there's always Toscanini (but I
don't like Nelli) or Busch (but I don't like Verdi in German). So for
an all-around compromise solution, I've settled on Solti I, which is
much better conducted and recorded than the Leinsdorf and about as
well sung -- no, Nilsson isn't idiomatic, but I think she's very good
in the big duet and "Morro, ma prima in grazia." Muti is also a good
choice, but I find Domingo too heavy for this role; I don't think
anyone holds a candle to Bergonzi as Riccardo (certainly
not Bjoerling, whom he replaced for the Solti).
LA FORZA DEL DESTINO -- This is a pretty easy choice for me: After
being bored by other recordings and performances, the opera finally
worked for me when I heard the Gardelli set with Arroyo and Bergonzi.
On paper it doesn't look as impressively-cast as others, but it just
somehow made me understand the structure of the opera in a way that
other recordings couldn't. Then of course there's the
Caniglia/Stignani, which I've seen very cheap at various outlet
stores.
DON CARLO -- Giulini is probably the strongest five-act version all
around, but Solti's set makes more of some of the big moments (notably
Philip's aria and the subsequent scene with the Inquisitor, which BTW
is my favourite scene in any opera, and has been since I was a kid).
I still have to explore the various live versions more. What we
really need is a new studio recording of the five act version in
French, but fat chance of that.
AIDA -- Since I've never liked this opera's dramaturgy (mainly because
of Radames -- is there a more blockheaded hero in all of opera? And
why does he say in Act IV that he knows in his heart that he's really
innocent even though he blabbed an important military secret *and*
planned on deserting? What a maroon), a recording has to work really
hard to keep me interested. Karajan I does that work, through the
orchestral playing and the Culshaw production effects (the Priestess
scene becomes spellbinding through the brilliant use of distance
effects). It also helps that the best characters in the opera are
cast from strength here: Simionato as Amneris, and the (to me)
underrated MacNeil as Amonasro.
REQUIEM -- I don't know it well enough yet to make a firm
recommendation. I do know what my favourite is at the moment; it's
Solti I, which finally made me love this piece after being bored stiff
by the Giulini (I like someone's description of it as "The REQUIEM for
people who think God might be embarrassed by Verdi") and several
others. Since I have this feeling that I really shouldn't love this
recording, I'll keep searching for one which I can love *and*
recommend without guilt. :>
OTELLO -- For conducting, I still find Toscanini unbeatable (and I can
think of a couple of recordings, notably the Levine, where the
conductor just seems to be imitating Toscanini's interpretation). For
an all-around production, I derive great pleasure from Karajan I and
Solti I (principals who had just performed the piece together in a
Paris production; the late, underrated Cossutta as a fine Otello; and
unlike almost every other OTELLO recording, this one has a really
strong supporting cast. Plus it's cheap).
FALSTAFF -- Bernstein's conducting triumphs over my one problem with
this opera (namely that I don't find it very funny -- Bernstein brings
out more of the humour in Verdi's music than any other conductor,
counteracting what I find to be Boito's charmless, self-indulgently
clever libretto). Too bad he doesn't
have a better pair of young lovers or a funnier Falstaff. I'll also
put in a vote for Solti I, a bit pushy at times but well recorded (one
of the last good-sounding opera recordings RCA made before Lewis
Layton left and their opera recordings went to sonic hell) and with an
outstanding cast including IMO Robert
Merrill's best performance on records, in spite of the fact that he
never actually played Ford on stage (or maybe *because* of that?).
Karajan I gets more charm out of the work than most (including the
young lovers' music, which I find he does exactly right -- this music
needs to be played as "straight" as possible to get the full effect of
being little rushed moments of happiness), and of course there's the
Toscanini/Valdengo, though I actually find Toscanini's approach more
frenzied than funny, which means he doesn't cover up the opera's
dramatic flaws as well as Bernstein. This opera seems to have been
pretty lucky on records, all in all.
Simon Roberts
>
> As the world's only Molinari-Pradelli fan (well, other than Jeff), you
would
> think I could weigh in on his Rigoletto, but it's been so long since
I've heard
> it. The recordings by him that I most admire include (as I never tire
of
> saying) the earlier Decca L'elisir with Gueden and Di Stefano (as
opposed to
> the later one on EMI with Freni and Gedda), the Philips Don Pasquale,
the Cetra
> Boccanegra, and the Traviata on Decca with Tebaldi.
Have you ever heard his Ballo on a Globe twofer, a live performance from
Amsterdam in 1958 with Brouwenstijn and Zampieri? Impressive all round.
Simon
David Gable
> BMG/Ricordi has a _Rigoletto_ with Scotto, Kraus, and Bastianini, conducted
> by Gavazzeni. It's misdated as 1969, but Henry Fogel thinks that's a typo
> for 1959. Have you heard this, and if so what do you think of it?
I think Henry's right. I used to have a copy of this in its
incarnation as one of those horrid late American Everest LP opera
issues in a flimsy gold-bordered cardboard box with orange labels on
the vinyl and surfaces that sounded like sandpaper. But I haven't
heard it for a while. At the time I thought Bastianini was a
thrillingly gorgeous-voiced Rigoletto. I probably still would. The
date is early enough that Scotto should be in good vocal estate. Ken
Melzer reviewed this somewhere online and there was a thread on it at
rmo. Would love to hear it again, but as in the case of Traviata, how
many more recordings of Rigoletto do I need? Since I'm responding to
Matthew I should admit that I like Toscanini's Verdi in general more
than I let on and also that I am normally a great admirer of Signor
Pavarotti--well, at least for the first couple of decades of his
career--and I only regret that the younger Pavarotti is seldom
available minus one or both of the Bonynge's and that the later
Pavarotti is seldom available without singers inferior to him in other
roles. Despite my insane enthusiasm for certain performances by
singers without any voices at all, I do appreciate singers who have
voice, voice, voice, voice, voice, an ear, and temperament.
Pavarotti's an example.
-david gable
David Gable
> performance from
> Amsterdam in 1958 with Brouwenstijn and Zampieri? Impressive all round.
>
> Simon
No, I haven't. Sounds promising, though. This thread makes me want
to spend more money on Verdi opera recordings, and since Mozart and
Verdi are the two composers best represented in my CD collection, I
better stop reading. Opera composers make for expensive hobbies.
-david gable
Matthew Silverstein
> My favorite Rigoletto is the RCA recording with Berger, Merriman, Peerce,
> Warren, Tajo, and Renato Cellini.
Can you (or anyone else) comment on the competing transfers? MDT lists
Preiser, Naxos, and Myto.
Matty
Dan
Macbeth - Cappuccilli/Verrett/Abbado
Simon Boccanegra - Cappuccilli/Verrett/Abbado ("dull" is not necessarily
bad, I don't really like Simon yelling)
Don Carlo - Domingo/Caballe/Giulini
Traviata - Cotrubas/Domingo/Kleiber (people who think this is overrated are
full of it, I'm sorry)
Otello - Domingo/Studer/Chung (another controversial one)
Ballo - Domingo/Ricciarrelli/Abbado (by far the best in my opinion for the
conducting alone)
Rigoletto - Cappuccilli/Cotrubas/Giulini
Aida - Price/Vickers/Solti
Forza - Domingo/Price/Levine (down with the awful Sinopoli version)
Luisa Miller - Ricciarelli/Domingo/Maazel (I love Domingo's 'Quando le sere'
it makes the set for me)
I don't have a favourite Trovatore, none satisfies me very much and I like
bits of pieces of each version.
Falstaff is the same way. I can't really judge the earlier works, I haven't
listened to most of them enough.
Dan
"MIFrost" <sfr...@nycap.rr.com> wrote in message
news:wNEm8.5793$8%1.26...@typhoon.nyroc.rr.com...
benjo maso
Nobody mentioned yet "I Lombardi", which is one of my favourite Verdi
opera's. There is an excellent live recording made in Covent Garden 1979
with Carreras, Sass and Ghiuselev, conducted by Gardelli.
The best Otello's I know are recorded at the end of the 1930's at the New
York met with Giovanni Martinelli (Otello) and Lawrence Tibbet (Iago) and a
series of Desdemona's. The conductor is Panizza, which I prefer to Toscanini
(too tense to my taste).
Concerning Don Carlo: the French version is definitely better than the
Italian. My favourite recording is Pappano's (in spite of Waltraud Meier as
Eboli). Abbado's super complete recording is a failure. None of the singers
is comfortable with the French version and would have been much better if
they could have sung in Italian.
La Traviata is a problem. My two favourites are Callas/Di Stefano/Giulini
and a live recording made in Vienna 1979 with Ileana Cotrubas (much better
than on Kleiber) and Nikolai Gedda, a natural for Alfredo. Cornell MacNeill
(Germont père is the weak spot). The conductor is Josef Krips.
Aida: the Solti with Vickers and Price is well sung, well conducted and very
exciting.
In general: if you're hesitating, choose the recording with Carlo Bergonzi,
IMO by far the most satisfying Verdi tenor of the post war area (and avoid
Fischer-Dieskau. He certainly has his moments, but refusing to adapt his
style to the rest of the cast he sounds in general irritatingly
unidiomatic).
Benjo Maso
Benjo Maso
David7Gable
>in his "Traviata" that could be criticized as you do, but don't you take
>the other extreme because irritated by the "hagiography"? just asking.)
There's probably a grain of truth in what you say, but I really do detest his
ridiculously hard driven performance of Traviata. And not only for that.
Can't think of commercial recording of a Verdi opera I like less, although I
probably could find a few I like as little if I tried hard enough. Like his
Otello, though.
-david gable
David7Gable
I forgot about this Ballo, which I do like. Quite a different conductor from
the tired Serafin of the very last stereo recordings.
>Forza - Caniglia, Masini, Stignani
And this I really must hear.
-david gable
Todd Kay
>"Doing nothing"--Todd Kay's own entirely accurate description of what Karajan
>does in the brief slow lyric movements from Falstaff-- [...]
That must have been someone else's comment. I prize the recording in question,
and would never use the words "doing nothing" in description of Karajan's
treatment of any section of the score. You are entitled to your view, but it is
one I neither expressed nor would endorse.
>>FALSTAFF: Karajan I/EMI. I know Mr. Gable's complaint about the treatment of
the lyric moments in this set, but I hear them differently -- I actually
*appreciate* that Karajan resists the temptation to squeeze them or make more
of them, and I find these passages an asset rather than a debit. Too many
conductors [...] inflate the young lovers'
music into a syrupy-sticky confection as if to reward us unwashed listeners
with some ripe Italianate romantic goo for sitting still and concentrating our
minds during the brisk declamatory/exclamatory material so prevalent in the
surrounding score. Karajan and the Philharmonia are better than most at subtly
making the point that time is passing for the young lovers too; that their
sweet stolen moments are nevertheless *moments*, for all their sweetness -- a
faintly enticing scent on the breeze; something [youth?] vanishing almost as
quickly as it can be grasped and appreciated. I find the "plainness" of those
passages in the Karajan set, their understated, chaste beauty, a valid choice
in a work that I understand as essentially autumnal and bittersweet, for all
its flashing wit and knockabout humor. This remains the most consistently well
sung and conducted set I've heard, the one that best captures the buoyancy,
humor and wisdom of the work. <<
========Todd Kay========
Todd Kay
>TROVATORE -- I haven't heard one that really satisfies me. The Mehta
>*would* be all-round satisfying if it didn't have Price and had better
>sound.
Are you not a fan of Leontyne Price in general, or simply not as she sounds in
that performance?
>TRAVIATA -- Kleiber (assuming I know what is meant by "no idea how to
>conduct an oom-pah-pah accompaniment," I think that's just what I like
>about his conducting; I *like* "symphonic" Verdi).
I take it on a case-by-case basis. I can, and do, enjoy performances that
purists dismiss as "unidiomatic" -- if I happen to like the effects achieved
(and I do very much in the case of Kleiber's conducting of TRAVIATA, although
it is principally for Cotrubas's singing and acting that I recommend it), I'll
happily pitch camp with the heretics.
>REQUIEM -- I don't know it well enough yet to make a firm
>recommendation. I do know what my favourite is at the moment; it's
>Solti I, which finally made me love this piece after being bored stiff
>by the Giulini (I like someone's description of it as "The REQUIEM for
>people who think God might be embarrassed by Verdi") and several
>others. Since I have this feeling that I really shouldn't love this
>recording, I'll keep searching for one which I can love *and*
>recommend without guilt.
I too used to find the Giulini dull, but when I went back to it recently, it
held together better than I remembered (although I doubt I'll ever warm to the
contributions of Schwarzkopf and Gedda).
My favorite recording overall may be Muti I, with Scotto, Balsta, Luchetti, and
Nesterenko, for delivering the whole show -- taut conducting, virtuosic
playing, superb choral work, fine recorded sound, and soloists ranging from
excellent (Baltsa) to eminently solid. But I like the Karajan La Scala DVD (or
laser disc, or VHS, whatver) with the team of Price/Cossotto/Pav/Ghiaurov still
better -- I'd listen to it even more if it were available on a straight-CD
release.
>FALSTAFF -- [...]
>Karajan I gets more charm out of the work than most (including the
>young lovers' music, which I find he does exactly right -- this music
>needs to be played as "straight" as possible to get the full effect of
>being little rushed moments of happiness),
Yes, quite.
>This opera seems to have been
>pretty lucky on records, all in all.
It really has. There are few obvious "stay-away" picks, as opposed to ones that
seem weak relative to the very best. And even some of those I would not
recommend have their blocks of admirers. I'm not sure if there's a really
disastrous FALSTAFF recording out there, although what I've heard about
Gardiner's recent one isn't promising.
========Todd Kay========
Todd Kay
>Have you ever heard his Ballo on a Globe twofer, a live performance from
>Amsterdam in 1958 with Brouwenstijn and Zampieri? Impressive all round.
Where's *your* contentious, up-to-date-for-2002 Verdi recordings list, Simon? I
hope you've been won over by the beauty and power of BOCCANEGRA since last time
this topic came up... :)
========Todd Kay========
Simon Roberts
"Todd Kay" <tragik...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020324224054...@mb-bk.aol.com...
> Simon Roberts wrote:
>
> >Have you ever heard his Ballo on a Globe twofer, a live performance
from
> >Amsterdam in 1958 with Brouwenstijn and Zampieri? Impressive all
round.
>
> Where's *your* contentious, up-to-date-for-2002 Verdi recordings list,
Simon?
If I say that I don't like any stereo studio Aida, and that the only
studio Trovatores I like are Karajan I and Giulini, you might prefer
that it remain contentious and absent....
I
> hope you've been won over by the beauty and power of BOCCANEGRA since
last time
> this topic came up... :)
Ummm....
Simon
David7Gable
>badly cast from top to bottom (Suliotis is not yet a train-wreck at
>this point, but she's clearly a train-wreck waiting to happen). So
>I'll reluctantly go with the Muti.
The bass (Carlo Cava) is nothing special, but you object to Gobbi as Nabucco?
And you dislike Suliotis because later on she could no longer sing?
>assuming I know what is meant by "no idea how to
>conduct an oom-pah-pah accompaniment," I think that's just what I like
>about his conducting; I *like* "symphonic" Verdi
Whatever "symphonic" Verdi means. Evidently you also like Kleiber's refusal to
give Domingo time to fit his notes in between the accompanying chords in "Ah,
si! che feci!" (sung by the remorseful Alfredo near the end of the scene of
Flora's party.)
>Maazel has some of
>the same virtues and better sound than the Kleiber,
Maazel's performance is a million times better than Carlos Kleiber's travesty.
.> if
>I had a gun to my head I'd take Pritchard/Sutherland (dull conducting,
>but great vocalism, and it's cheap
That's the trouble with Sutherland: all you get is great vocalism. If you
think Cleva is bland, how can you tolerate Sutherland?
>(I was introduced to the
>piece via the Santini, and as usual with Santini, I barely knew there
>*was* an orchestra there).
Must be something wrong with your stereo. The orchestra comes through loud and
clear on mine. At least Santini does something with his orchestra, which is
more than can be said for the bland and faceless Abbado. If you think Cleva is
faceless, it's hard to fathom how you can tolerate Abbado who does so much less
and has so much less of a distinctive profile.
>Giulini is probably the strongest five-act version [of Don Carlos] all
>around
Rightly or wrongly, I always suspect that a preference for name conductors like
Giulini over opera house conductors like Cleva is a function of snobbery, but
who knows. My suspicions may be unjustified. But how a dull, slack, and
enervated performance like Giulini's Don Carlo can be described as "strong"
while an energetic and distinctively shaped performance like Cleva's strikes
you as dull is beyond me. (You're right, though. Solti makes more of the big
moments.)
-david gable
David7Gable
Well, you're going to pay a lot more for Myto or Preiser, which is why I bought
Naxos. And I was slightly disappointed with the transfer by Mark Obert-Thorn
(especially given the respect he seems to have garnered around rmcr) who shaved
just a little too much presence off of the original recording for my taste.
The singers sound ever so slightly more ghostly and disembodied than on the
original LP's. I can only hope that Myto or Preiser were more discrete in
intervening. You do get an absolutely sensational performance of the big
father-daughter duet from Boccanegra with Astrid Varnay, Leonard Warren, and
Renato Cellini on Naxos.
-david gable
David7Gable
But her voice was always brittle and always had at least a slightly hard edge
to it. This doesn't tell me whether or not I would like her performance. It
only tells me that you don't like her voice.
-david gable
David7Gable
>conductors [...] inflate the young lovers'
>music into a syrupy-sticky confection as if to reward us unwashed listeners
>with some ripe Italianate romantic goo
Name one. Toscanini? Solti 1? Solti 2? I don't remember even Bernstein
(which I was very disappointed in for many reasons) doing this. But it's true
that Karajan does less here than anybody else I've ever heard. "Doing nothing"
still seems like a good synopsis both of what Karajan does and of what your
desciption of his performance claims he does.
-david gable
David7Gable
>in a work that I understand as essentially autumnal and bittersweet
I don't see why phrasing a little would defile this ingenuous music. It would
bring it to life. Nor do I consider Falstaff the least bit autumnal or
bittersweet. Now Brahms and Tennyson are autumnal and bittersweet, and their
late life acts of affirmation would be acts of resignation. Not Verdi's.
There's nothing autumnal or resigned about Falstaff. Indeed, it's savage and
ruthless in its opinion of human affairs. Falstaff is Mozartian, Donizettian,
late Beethoven quartet-ish, not Brahmsian. Falstaff is essentially classical
in spirit, not late, late, late Romantic. As somebody once said of Falstaff,
with it the clarity and consciousness of Mozartian comedy was restored. And
its language is absolutely unique for the period, being characterized by a very
fleet harmonic rhythm (or rate of chord change) in a period when everybody else
in Europe is writing music with a much slower and languorous rate of chord
change. Compare it to Wagner's last opera, for example. Or even to its exact
contemporary, Manon Lescaut.
-david gable
Todd Kay
To *you*, it may sound that way. But it takes a willful leap to get from my
"understated, chaste beauty" or even "plainness" to "doing nothing." If you're
going to provide a synopsis of my comments in the course of giving your own
opinion, you should be able to do so without attributing words and judgments of
your own to me in the form of direct quotation, and patronizingly crediting me
with an "entirely accurate description" that I did not and would not make.
========Todd Kay========
Matthew Silverstein
> Well, you're going to pay a lot more for Myto or Preiser, which is why I
bought
> Naxos.
I'd rather pay more for a better sounding recording . . .
Thanks for your input. Anyone heard Preiser or Myto?
Matty
Simon Roberts
wrote:
Yes, Preiser - but what you need is someone who's heard all three.
Simon (who's not sure he shares the considerable enthusiasm some have for
this performance)
Simon Roberts
someone:
>.> if
>>I had a gun to my head I'd take Pritchard/Sutherland (dull conducting,
>>but great vocalism, and it's cheap
>
>That's the trouble with Sutherland: all you get is great vocalism. If you
>think Cleva is bland, how can you tolerate Sutherland?
I can't speak for whoever wrote what you're responding to, of course, but
I'll note that I tolerate Sutherland and Pritchard for Merrill and,
especially, Bergonzi - his opening of "un di felice" is sheer magic.
Simon
Dan
> Rightly or wrongly, I always suspect that a preference for name conductors
like
> Giulini over opera house conductors like Cleva is a function of snobbery,
but
> who knows.
I also think that preference over performances that people do not often hear
and are hard to find (ie. pirates, or old LP issues, etc.), sung by less
known singers and with less known conductors is more of a function of
snobbery, but who knows.
Dan
Dan
Kanawa? Those surely have to be worse than Kleiber's Traviata, regardless of
whether you like it or hate it. Maazel's Otello comes to mind too.
Dan
"David7Gable" <david...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020324210534...@mb-mf.aol.com...
David7Gable
>and are hard to find (ie. pirates, or old LP issues, etc.), sung by less
>known singers and with less known conductors is more of a function of
>snobbery, but who knows.
But I confined (and deliberately so) my recommendations to readily available
commercial recordings. Or is the Moffo/Cleva Luisa Miller, as they say at
eBay, "RARE!!!!"
-david gable
David7Gable
The following is a discussion of the Rigoletto with Berger, Merriman, Peerce,
Warren, Tajol, and Cellini which has simultaneously emerged on Naxos, Preiser,
and Myto.
>I'd rather pay more for a better sounding recording . . .
>
Me, too. But I'm not prepared to buy three copies of the same set to find out
which is best. I trusted Naxos because of the praise Mark O-T garners around
here. BTW I've repeatedly posed your question on this newsgroup and at
rec.music.opera, but nobody ever answers it.
-david gable
David7Gable
The topic again is the thrice-reissued Berger/Peerce/Warren Rigoletto with
Renato Cellini conducting.
>Anyone heard Preiser or Myto?
>
>Yes, Preiser - but what you need is someone who's heard all three.
There's the rub. Who's going to have shelled out for all three? But I'm
willing to mail my copy of Naxos to Simon if he'll compare it to Preiser. I
have a sneaking suspicion that both Myto and Preiser are going to have taken a
less interventionist approach than Naxos, which means I might like them better.
-david gable
william d. kasimer
> BTW I've repeatedly posed your question on this newsgroup and at
> rec.music.opera, but nobody ever answers it.
FWIW, the question was addressed about a year ago on RMO, under a
thread called "Which Warren Rigoletto". Those who'd heard more than
one (Henry Fogel had heard all three) seemed to prefer the Naxos.
I just received and listened to the Naxos. The transfer sounds fine
to me, but I'm not fond enough of the performance to have any desire
to hear another transfer.
Bill
Elizabeth Hubbell
>
> TRAVIATA -- Kleiber (assuming I know what is meant by "no idea how to
> conduct an oom-pah-pah accompaniment," I think that's just what I like
> awful splice at the end of Domingo's cabaletta. Maazel has some of
> the same virtues and better sound than the Kleiber, but his cast is
> uneven and the omission of the vocal parts at the very end is a really
> bad decision.
I always stub my toe on this opera.
Right now, I'm enjoying most the young Scotto with G. Raimondi and
Bastianini on DG. But since that one is not entirely satisfying either,
there's no saying I may not find myself going back to the De Los Angeles
again (warmer conducting) or the Caballe (no cuts<G>) or one of the
Albanese or Callas sets (possibly the most intriguing dramatic
interpretations?) despite certain sonics problems, IMO, or whatever.
All of these have been my preferred set at one time or another.......<G>
Like Mr. Gable, I'm almost about to consider listening to the Stella or
Carteri sets(!), despite neither of these protagonists striking me as
being too attractive on paper. There's always the young Moffo set,
which I heard years and years ago and *believe* I rather enjoyed(?).
Just this month, we heard, at a friend's place, the entire last act of
VOX's reissue of the Zeani set. It quite impressed me actually, though
I feel I should naturally hold off on any recommendation for this until
I have, at least, heard the whole thing<G>. Freni combines heartfelt
singing with a gorgeous voice albeit a questionable (IMO) Germont pere
among her colleagues, while Sills who was *also* capable, briefly, of
combining both attributes herself founders on the lumbering conducting
of Aldo Ceccato (which she overcomes more successfully "live" singing
opposite Alfredo Kraus, though in so-so sound). Ponselle is the most
gorgeous of all, of course, but the distortion, although more bearable
in the fine NAXOS transfer, could still be a stumbling block for someone
buying--and listening--to this piece for the first time.
Bottom line: No recording of Traviata *satisfies*--yet?--in quite the
way that, say, the Bjoerling/Barbieri/Milanov Trovatore or the
Gobbi/Callas/Di Stefano Rigoletto do (despite their cuts). This is an
odd--and a fortuitous, IMO--problem.
> Too bad there's no really first-class uncut version; if
> I had a gun to my head I'd take Pritchard/Sutherland (dull conducting,
> but great vocalism, and it's cheap) to supplement a cut version.
Seriously, you don't find the literally complete Caballe/Bergonzi/Milnes
set somewhat more involving? I once had both the Caballe and this early
Sutherland/Pritchard set and, frankly, decided to offload the Sutherland
instead. Please, could you amplify some of your reflections on these
two recordings? Sincere thanks.
Cordially,
Geoffrey Riggs
www.operacast.com
Matthew Silverstein
> FWIW, the question was addressed about a year ago on RMO, under a
> thread called "Which Warren Rigoletto". Those who'd heard more than
> one (Henry Fogel had heard all three) seemed to prefer the Naxos.
Indeed--I just browsed through the thread on Google, and all of the
comparisons seem to favor Naxos.
Matty
Dan
Moffo Luisa is rather old and I personally have never seen it. But that's
just me I guess.
Dan
"David7Gable" <david...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020326104842...@mb-cr.aol.com...
Richard Loeb
really don't think (Lord Withhold Thy Lightning") that the second stanzes of
Violettas two arias tell us all that much and I really think Verdi was more
interested in filling out the musical form than in any any inherent
additional dramatic detail. And frankly I think that both of the cabalettas
to Alfredo and Germonts arias are pretty terrible music as well. Okay now
let me have it!!!
"Elizabeth Hubbell" <elizabet...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:3CA0E068...@verizon.net...
David7Gable
>comparisons seem to favor Naxos.
How unfortunate. Because the LP's sounded better than Naxos.
-dg
Simon Roberts
> >Indeed--I just browsed through the thread on Google, and all of the
> >comparisons seem to favor Naxos.
>
> How unfortunate. Because the LP's sounded better than Naxos.
Maybe the Preiser or Myto sound more like the LPs.... Do the
comparisons describe the differences or merely express preferences?
Simon (too lazy, at this stage, to figure it out for himself)
Matthew Silverstein
> Maybe the Preiser or Myto sound more like the LPs.... Do the
> comparisons describe the differences or merely express preferences?
I believe that some of them do describe the differences, but I don't remember
the details.
Matty (too lazy, at this stage, to refresh my memory by reading them again)
Todd Kay
>It seems to me a matter of 'which operas' as much as 'which recordings'.
>
>Aida I find intensely dull with some exceptions (e.g. much of the Nile
>Scene).
Hm. I hear and read this opinion often these days. The first two acts in
particular are treated with condescension in many references and overviews, and
one gets the impression that the standing of the work as a whole has seen
better days (many modern critics feel the need to put it up against DON CARLO,
and find it wanting). It's never been my view. From the first time I heard
AIDA, I thought it had a lovely, colorful, dynamic and rich score with scarcely
a dull bar of music, whatever its shortcomings in the drama and the
characterization. I never had to "warm to it," musically, as I did with certain
of his others.
>I'd rate Ballo, Forza (preferably the original), Don Carlo[s],
>the Requiem, and Otello as his greatest successes. Rigoletto, Traviata,
>Boccanegra, and Falstaff aren't far behind. The rest is a rather mixed
>bag...
Agreed re: CARLO, OTELLO, and the Requiem, but I'd put BOCCANEGRA, FALSTAFF,
AIDA, and TRAVIATA in the "A" group, and the others you mention a lick behind
those. In general my greatest interest is in the operas beginning with
TRAVIATA, and I consider every opera he wrote from that point on to be
essential except for VESPRI and AROLDO.
I'm not sure where to put the quartet or the Four Sacred Pieces. I should
listen to them more. In particular with the Sacred Pieces, I don't feel I've
really "penetrated" them yet, as a listener.
========Todd Kay========
David7Gable
I'm not either. I don't object to it but I don't need it.
>I
>really don't think (Lord Withhold Thy Lightning") that the second stanzes of
>Violettas two arias tell us all that much and I really think Verdi was more
>interested in filling out the musical form than in any any inherent
>additional dramatic detail.
Actually I do prefer to hear these second verses, but their absence won't
prevent me from buying a recording.
> And frankly I think that both of the cabalettas
>to Alfredo and Germonts arias are pretty terrible music.
I couldn't agree more. The cabalettas that used to be standard cuts from the
big three middle period Verdi operas, Rigoletto, Trovatore, and Traviata are
all pretty trashy: the cabaletta for the Duke of Mantua following "Parmi
veder," "Possente amor," Leonora's cabaletta following the Miserere in
Trovatore, "Tu vedrai che amore in terra," and the cabalettas for the two
Germonts that you mention. "Possente amor" is especially primitive and simple
minded.
-david gable
Matthew B. Tepper
news:f69b4194.02032...@posting.google.com:
> david...@aol.com (David7Gable) wrote in message
> news:<20020326105206...@mb-cr.aol.com>...
>
>> BTW I've repeatedly posed your question on this newsgroup and at
>> rec.music.opera, but nobody ever answers it.
>
> FWIW, the question was addressed about a year ago on RMO, under a
> thread called "Which Warren Rigoletto". Those who'd heard more than
> one (Henry Fogel had heard all three) seemed to prefer the Naxos.
I just checked with Google, and actually Henry hadn't heard the Preiser.
But he preferred Naxos to Myto, and Ken Meltzer preferred Naxos to
Preiser, and that's good enough for me. Besides which, somebody sent me
the Naxos as a gift, nyah.
> I just received and listened to the Naxos. The transfer sounds fine
> to me, but I'm not fond enough of the performance to have any desire
> to hear another transfer.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Top 3 worst UK exports: Mad-cow; Foot-and-mouth; Charlotte Church
Raymond Hall
news:u9v6bi8...@corp.supernews.com...
| Sinopoli's Forza? How about his Macbeth? Or the "wonderful" Traviata with
Te
| Kanawa? Those surely have to be worse than Kleiber's Traviata, regardless
of
| whether you like it or hate it. Maazel's Otello comes to mind too.
I have just picked up a used copy of HvK's Othello (c 1961) with del Monaco,
Tebaldi and Protti, with the VPO and chorus on a Decca twofer. Anybody know
about this recording? Suppose I'll have to read the synopsis (deep sigh),
but this Verdi business has got to be tried out.
Regards,
# RMCR Contributor Links/Main Page :
# http://www.users.bigpond.com/hallraylily/index.html
< there is no such thing as a bad orchestra, only a bad conductor >: HvK
Ray, Sydney
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Mitchell Kaufman
> Maybe the Preiser or Myto sound more like the LPs.... Do the
> comparisons describe the differences or merely express preferences?
I haven't heard any of the new ones, but the "good-sounding" LPs must've
been the original Red Seal pressings; the crummy Victrola issue (the one
that had the two discs stuffed into one jacket) sounded harsh and
constricted. Mohr and Layton couldn't have made *that* bad a recording
in the Manhattan Center if they'd had cotton stuffed in their ears.
That said, I think the '45 Met broadcast (also on Naxos) is a better
souvenir of Warren's Rigoletto; it's got Bjoerling in prime form instead
of Peerce, and Sayao, who's at least competitive with Berger. I also
prefer Sodero's conducting to Cellini's (he's too brisk and the
orchestra sounds lightweight), and for my money the sound is even
better.
Incidentally, I just got finished listening to the Warner Fonit reissue
of the Cetra Rigoletto (Taddei/Pagliughi/Tagliavini; Questa), and I can
without reservation cast my vote for the best Sparafucile: Giulio Neri.
Oooon-friggin'-believable! (I wouldn't normally recommend buying a
Rigoletto for the Sparafucile, but this might be an exception [not that
the rest of the cast is chopped liver].)
MK
Mitchell Kaufman
<elizabet...@verizon.net> wrote:
> Ponselle is the most gorgeous of all, of course, but the distortion,
> although more bearable in the fine NAXOS transfer, could still be a
> stumbling block for someone buying--and listening--to this piece for the
> first time.
Are you referring to the distortion in the recording, or her distortion
of the vocal line? ;-)
MK
Mitchell Kaufman
> I have just picked up a used copy of HvK's Othello (c 1961) with del Monaco,
> Tebaldi and Protti, with the VPO and chorus on a Decca twofer. Anybody know
> about this recording? Suppose I'll have to read the synopsis (deep sigh),
> but this Verdi business has got to be tried out.
It's my favorite in stereo. Spectacular recording and production values
(Culshaw), magnificent orchestral work, and Del Monaco at least making
an occasional attempt at nuance. Neither he nor Tebaldi are as vocally
lustrous as in their earlier recording w/Erede, but they're still the
gold standard in these parts for that era.
The black mark is Protti, the Iago, who's fairly pathetic. Ettore
Bastianini was signed, but canned when he showed up not knowing the part
("What's all this about a handkerchief?").
MK
Mitchell Kaufman
> But while the second half of this is wonderful and all that, the Dies Irae
> always strikes me as a bit, ah, measured. Insufficient violent abandon.
Dark horse choice, which I just got through hearing for the first time:
Ormandy, with Amara, Forrester, Tucker and London.
I know it's not the starriest cast, and Ormandy isn't a conductor one
would usually associate with Verdi, but it really is a humdinger of a
performance.
Debit side: Amara hasn't the luxurious timbre of some of her competitors
(but can spin an ethereal pianissimo when required), Forrester sounds a
bit ungainly, Tucker can't or won't sing softly (especially damaging in
the Hostias), and London, while still making some beautiful noises, has
a vibrato wide enough to drive a truck through (O.K....an SUV).
But for some peculiar reason it all works, which is more than I can say
for some of the more renowned choices (particularly Reiner, Solti
[either one], or the Karajan studio recordings--all of which fail badly
for various reasons).
Good playing (Philadelphia), choral work (Westminster) and recording
(Manhattan Center), too.
MK
Elizabeth Hubbell
YOWWWWW!:-))))..........well......I suppose our Rosa does play around a
bit with some of the phrasing, yes. But, even though her sheer insight
may not be on an Albanese/Callas/Scotto/Sills level (N.B.: scrupulous
alphabetical order, no favorites:-), nor does she match their variety,
she still imparts a rare degree of spontaneity amidst all that "playing
around", IMO. She comes across as genuine, in other words. That and
the undeniably luscious voice--however much it *may* fall short of what
she gives us in the '20s--always make for a winning combination whenever
I play this b'cast.
(Aside from the sonics, another thing that HURTS is knowing that Crooks
was scheduled for Alfredo until he took sick and ho-hum Jagel took over;
at least Crooks' Alfredo is available elsewhere, but it would have been
exciting to have had Crooks and Ponselle together.......Oh well, at
least we have Ponselle here with Tibbett.......)
Geoffrey Riggs
www.operacast.com
David7Gable
>an occasional attempt at nuance. Neither he nor Tebaldi are as vocally
>lustrous as in their earlier recording w/Erede, but they're still the
>gold standard in these parts for that era.
Not for me, they aren't. And not by a long shot. Not that there have been
many satisfactory Otello's in recorded history.
-david gable
David7Gable
>been the original Red Seal pressings;
The copy I have is older than that: pre-Red Seal.
>I think the '45 Met broadcast (also on Naxos) is a better
>souvenir of Warren's Rigoletto; it's got Bjoerling in prime form instead
>of Peerce, and Sayao, who's at least competitive with Berger. I also
>prefer Sodero's conducting to Cellini's (he's too brisk and the
>orchestra sounds lightweight)
Just so you don't turn around and tell me the Traviata's of Toscanini and
especially Carlos Kleiber are not too brisk. I like the '45 broadcast, too,
but I certainly don't prefer it to Cellini, above all because of Cellini.
Sodero strikes ME as comparatively slack. I prefer Berger to Sayao. (My
favorite Gilda is Gueden.) I love Bjoerling, but I also love Peerce, and I
would be hard pressed to choose between them.
> I can
>without reservation cast my vote for the best Sparafucile: Giulio Neri.
>Oooon-friggin'-believable!
It's been a long time since I heard the old Cetra Rigoletto, and generally I
like Neri. But Italo Tajo for Renato Cellini gives the most characterful
performance of Sparafucile I've ever heard.
-david gable
Todd Kay
manner of Usenet problems these past several days, and suspect I'm not getting
all of the posts.]
Mitchell Kaufman wrote:
>Raymond Hall <hallr...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>
>> I have just picked up a used copy of HvK's Othello (c 1961) with del
>Monaco,
>> Tebaldi and Protti, with the VPO and chorus on a Decca twofer. Anybody know
>> about this recording? Suppose I'll have to read the synopsis (deep sigh),
>> but this Verdi business has got to be tried out.
>
>It's my favorite in stereo.
Possibly mine as well. I didn't know it ever had been repackaged as a twofer,
though. The edition I have is the late-eighties CD issue in the black slipcase,
including one of Decca's very fat four-language booklets. I might be reading
Raymond too literally, though.
I suppose this performance will be turning up as a "Legend" in time, as has
Fluffy's Decca AIDA.
[...]
>The black mark is Protti, the Iago, who's fairly pathetic. Ettore
>Bastianini was signed, but canned when he showed up not knowing the part
>("What's all this about a handkerchief?").
"Pathetic" is too strong, I think. His is not an attractive voice (not a tenth
as pleasant to listen to as that of EB), but he knows how to act the part, and
the performance is a highly charged one, effective in context.
Raymond, if you're synopsis/libretto-allergic but you want to know what's
going on, buy a copy of Sir Denis Forman's "A Night At The Opera" (cheap in
paperback), which briskly and irreverently covers 83 warhorses (curiously, no
LOHENGRIN and SAMSON, though), including 16 of Verdi's. It's entertaining and
often amusing to read, and there's a useful listener guide for each opera
covered (he draws attention to highlights, providing approximate timings and
descriptions, etc.). It's my favorite of the books of its kind that I've read
or thumbed through.
========Todd Kay========
Raymond Hall
news:20020327195919...@mb-bh.aol.com...
| [I hope this won't be the second time this shows up. I've been having all
| manner of Usenet problems these past several days, and suspect I'm not
getting
| all of the posts.]
|
| Mitchell Kaufman wrote:
|
| >Raymond Hall <hallr...@bigpond.com> wrote:
| >
| >> I have just picked up a used copy of HvK's Othello (c 1961) with del
| >Monaco,
| >> Tebaldi and Protti, with the VPO and chorus on a Decca twofer. Anybody
know
| >> about this recording? Suppose I'll have to read the synopsis (deep
sigh),
| >> but this Verdi business has got to be tried out.
| >
| >It's my favorite in stereo.
|
| Possibly mine as well. I didn't know it ever had been repackaged as a
twofer,
| though. The edition I have is the late-eighties CD issue in the black
slipcase,
| including one of Decca's very fat four-language booklets. I might be
reading
| Raymond too literally, though.
Probably I was sighing too deeply. Of course, the synopsis of Boito's
libretto is fairly easily garnered. The music demanded that I know !!
I listened to the HvK 1961 Othello last night, and was really amazed.
Firstly, and foremost, (and not being much of an opera fan up to now), I was
absolutely bowled over by the music. Give credit to Verdi and the recent
Verdi thread for that <g> Verdi doesn't get much better than this - or does
it? I distinctly remember an Aida that bored me to tears, and the
"spectacle" was even more of a chore, and which probably put me off a lot of
Verdi, apart from his Requiem.
Sonically, the recording is quite good, with some odd balances here and
there (the opening storm producing a paltry sounding wind machine, that
ping-ponged some strange hissing from ear to ear, and some distant trumpets
in Act III followed by an sudden *gigantic* thump) but generally the sound
had good depth, even if the choral singing at times seemed to waver in
perspective.
Not being a connoisseur of operatic singing, I can only report my personal
reaction was highly favourable with regard to Tebaldi, del Monaco, and Ana
Raquel Satre as Emilia. Perhaps Protti as Iago was less than might have
been (under-characterised for me). HvK seemed to be right "on top" of this
score, and allowed the music to flow, whilst at the same time savouring the
dramatic sections.
All in all, I was highly impressed. My used copy is in a thick black twofer
case, with a very thick booklet (239 pages), (Decca 411 618-2), and I
believe it is the same as you have. Where do I go from here - back down to
Verdi's lesser stuff? Isn't Othello Verdi at his peak? I seem to be falling
over HvK's operatic talents at the moment, and scored his Debussy Pelleas
and Melisande on EMI very cheaply (new) a few months ago.
PS: Thanks for the tip about Forman's "A Night at the Opera".
| I suppose this performance will be turning up as a "Legend" in time, as
has
| Fluffy's Decca AIDA.
Maybe it will. I was mightily impressed, but have no comparisons to make.
Regards,
# RMCR Contributor Links/Main Page :
# http://www.users.bigpond.com/hallraylily/index.html
< there is no such thing as a bad orchestra, only a bad conductor >: HvK
Ray, Sydney
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Todd Kay
>Probably I was sighing too deeply. Of course, the synopsis of Boito's
>libretto is fairly easily garnered. The music demanded that I know !!
>
>I listened to the HvK 1961 Othello last night, and was really amazed.
>Firstly, and foremost, (and not being much of an opera fan up to now), I was
>absolutely bowled over by the music. Give credit to Verdi and the recent
>Verdi thread for that <g>
I love to read this sort of thing. I too delayed exploring opera for quite a
while while I was listening to symphonies, concerti, chamber music, piano
music, etc., and Verdi and Mozart were my eventual entree(s). It is not an easy
bug to shake, once caught, and it can be debilitatingly expensive! But Verdi
has always been my favorite, and I wish I could have the experience of hearing
the music of Act I or Act IV of OTELLO for the first time, again. If that makes
any sense.
>Verdi doesn't get much better than this - or does
>it?
I don't know about 'better,' but there's a great deal that's as good, or nearly
so. Try SIMON BOCCANEGRA (the great Council Chamber scene added in the 1881
revision with Boito sounds like a dry run for OTELLO), or a five-act version of
DON CARLO/S. Then, perhaps, FALSTAFF -- if you are impressed with Karajan's
operatic recordings, and especially his OTELLO, you'll want to hear this one
sometime soon. It is, I think, his finest studio achievement with Verdi,
although his splendid cast must share the credit. Be sure to get the GROC
remastering, though, if you go that way. EMI's first attempt was unaccountably
awful.
>I distinctly remember an Aida that bored me to tears, and the
>"spectacle" was even more of a chore, and which probably put me off a lot of
>Verdi, apart from his Requiem.
Another listener who was unimpressed with AIDA. I'm beginning to feel
outnumbered here.
[...]
>All in all, I was highly impressed. My used copy is in a thick black twofer
>case, with a very thick booklet (239 pages), (Decca 411 618-2), and I
>believe it is the same as you have.
Oh, okay; it is the same. I only thought it might be a libretto-less reissue
because when I see "twofer" I think of things like the Phillips Duo or DG
Double series, which literally are "2-for-1" in price. Never mind.
>Where do I go from here - back down to
>Verdi's lesser stuff? Isn't Othello Verdi at his peak?
See above. Many do feel that OTELLO is his masterpiece, but others cite CARLO
or FALSTAFF. And there are people -- not I -- who vastly prefer the middle
stuff (esp. the RIG-TROV-TRAV big three). You're asking a partisan, though. I'm
of the opinion that of the 28 operas he wrote, at least half of them are
essential listening for anyone with an interest in 19th-century opera, and
several besides are, if not essential, still fine music and great fun to
hear/see.
>I seem to be falling
>over HvK's operatic talents at the moment, and scored his Debussy Pelleas
>and Melisande on EMI very cheaply (new) a few months ago.
A gorgeous performance.
========Todd Kay========
Jaime J. Weinman
<20020325011630...@mb-fx.aol.com> :
>..> if
>>I had a gun to my head I'd take Pritchard/Sutherland (dull
conducting,
>>but great vocalism, and it's cheap
In response to someone else's question, no, I don't find the Pretre
set more compelling (I find Pretre bad rather than just dull, and I
prefer the cast and sound on the earlier recording. Not that there's
really *any* uncut TRAVIATA that is a compelling experience.)
>That's the trouble with Sutherland: all you get is great vocalism.
If you
>think Cleva is bland, how can you tolerate Sutherland?
I don't find Sutherland bland at this phase of her career, though
her diction is a problem. (I would never call vocalism "great" if I
considered
it inexpressive.) I don't think Cleva is "bland," either. His
conducting on
the LUISA recording failed to make the piece work for me, but I'll
freely admit
that his reading has energy and that he's a skilled accompanist.
>>(I was introduced to the
>>piece via the Santini, and as usual with Santini, I barely knew
there
>>*was* an orchestra there).
>
>Must be something wrong with your stereo. The orchestra comes
through loud and
>clear on mine.
On mine too, but I don't hear Santini doing anything interesting
with it in
terms of orchestral color or weight -- I've never heard a Santini
recording
where I felt that he was giving the orchestration the power it should
have.
Obviously that's a purely personal reaction.
>Rightly or wrongly, I always suspect that a preference for name
conductors like
>Giulini over opera house conductors like Cleva is a function of
snobbery, but
>who knows. My suspicions may be unjustified.
They are unjustified. Just as I would be unjustified of accusing
you of
reverse snobbery. We have our different priorities and preferences.
No
snobbery involved on either side. (For the record, I do not
automatically
prefer "name" conductors -- for example, I don't like any Verdi I've
heard
from Giulini except the DON CARLO and maybe the TROVATORE. And I
consider the Previtali the best-conducted TRAVIATA I've heard, though
you don't like that either, so there we go...)
> But how a dull, slack, and
> enervated performance like Giulini's Don Carlo can be described as "strong"
> while an energetic and distinctively shaped performance like Cleva's strikes
> you as dull is beyond me.
What you hear as dullness I hear as a consistent and very powerful
approach to orchestral colour and pacing, that adds up to a compelling
musical conception of the opera and its themes. This dark, gloomy
conception is not the last word on DON CARLO, but I find it works for
me as most of Giulini's Verdi interpretations do not.
As for Cleva, I have nothing against him in terms of energy, and I
agree that he knows how to shape a Verdian phrase. But I didn't and
don't hear anything in his reading that could make the drama come
together for me, convince me that I should care about the story. An
interestingly-shaped musical phrase doesn't matter to me in opera
unless I hear some dramatic purpose behind it. (I also consider
orchestral balance and colour just as important as phrasing, and I'm
not grabbed by the overall orchestral colour of the Cleva the way I am
by the Maag, in which one of my favourite conductors creates a
convincingly grim sound for the drama. To be fair to Cleva I've heard
him create a more compelling sound in other, older performances.) I
respond most to opera recordings where the musical appraoch seems to
me to add up to a coherent, interesting way of telling the story.
This may cause me to miss some important things, but those are my
priorities and should not necessarily be anyone else's.
Jaime J. Weinman
Dan
> you of
> reverse snobbery. We have our different priorities and preferences.
> No
> snobbery involved on either side.
Thanks, my thoughts exactly.
(For the record, I do not
> automatically
> prefer "name" conductors -- for example, I don't like any Verdi I've
> heard
> from Giulini except the DON CARLO and maybe the TROVATORE.
I prefer the Rigoletto way more than the Trovatore which is too slow for me,
and on the recording the orchestra seems mushy. His dark Rigoletto I think
hits the right spot and the Don Carlo is excellent. Very powerful as you
state later.
Dan
Dan
sound.
Dan
"Todd Kay" <tragik...@aol.com> wrote in message
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