Pronounciation
Edwin
Hey,
I hate to do this again, but I believe after a few of this sort of
thread, we haven't come to much of a common consensus on pronounciation.
Anyway, the ones I'm really curious about are:
Eugen Jochum
Emil Gilels
Charles Munch
Sir Georg Solti
Rudolf Kempe
Karl Bohm (sorry I can't remember how to do umlauts)
Furtwangler
Carl Schuricht
George Szell
That's all I can think of at the moment. Will add some more as they come
to mind. Thanks.
--
"If we claim that man is too slight
to deserve communion with God,
we must indeed be great to be able
to judge" (Pascal)
Edwin
tertu...@post1.com
john harkness
John Harkness writes:
Edwin wrote:
>
> Hey,
> I hate to do this again, but I believe after a few of this sort of
> thread, we haven't come to much of a common consensus on pronounciation.
> Anyway, the ones I'm really curious about are:
> Eugen Jochum
Oy-gen yokum (the famous conductor from dogpatch)
> Emil Gilels
Hard G on Gilels (not jilels)
> Charles Munch
Sharl Munk
> Sir Georg Solti
Sholty
> Rudolf Kempe
finally "e" is not silent
> Karl Bohm (sorry I can't remember how to do umlauts)
rhymes with Inspector Clouseau's pronunciation of Room
> Furtwangler
FurtVangler
> Carl Schuricht
> George Szell
zell
> That's all I can think of at the moment. Will add some more as they come
> to mind. Thanks.
> Edwin
> tertu...@post1.com
Richard Schultz
Edwin (tertu...@post1.com) wrote:
: I hate to do this again, but I believe after a few of this sort of
: thread, we haven't come to much of a common consensus on pronounciation.
I beg to differ; I think that most of us who made it through elementary
school can recognize a pronoun when we see it.
-----
Richard Schultz sch...@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry tel: 972-3-531-8065
Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel fax: 972-3-535-1250
-----
"an optimist is a guy/ that has never had/ much experience"
Paul Goldstein
Edwin wrote:
>
> Hey,
> I hate to do this again, but I believe after a few of this sort of
> thread, we haven't come to much of a common consensus on pronounciation.
>
> Eugen Jochum
[snip]
> Rudolf Kempe
RU-dolf KEM-pe, with the second syllable ending in a faint "e", not "p".
> Karl Bohm (sorry I can't remember how to do umlauts)
the German o-with-umlaut.
> Furtwangler
FURT-vangler, with the "a" as in "hang."
> Carl Schuricht
Carl SHU-richt, with the "ch" sounded simiilarly but somewhat less
emphatically than in RaCHmaninoff. You might think of the playwright
"Brecht" in trying to pronounce the German "ch."
Stan Szpakowicz
>John Harkness writes:
>Edwin wrote:
>> Eugen Jochum
>Oy-gen yokum (the famous conductor from dogpatch)
Uhm, no. It's the same "ch" as in "Bach". "YOhoom" is about fair, accent
on the first syllable.
>> Karl Bohm (sorry I can't remember how to do umlauts)
>rhymes with Inspector Clouseau's pronunciation of Room
How does he do it?
>> Furtwangler
>FurtVangler
No, there's a fat umlaut here: Furtwaengler. "FUrtvengler" is about fair.
>> Carl Schuricht
ShOOriht, more or less.
>> George Szell
>zell
Sell.
--
Dr. Stan Szpakowicz, School of Information Technology and Engineering
University of Ottawa, phone +613 562 5800 (6687), fax +613 562 5187
email: sz...@site.uottawa.ca, WWW: http://www.csi.uottawa.ca/~szpak/
Michael Subotin
Ray Cheng wrote:
> Semyon Bychkov
seh-MYON bich-KOV
"YO" is a single non-gliding vowel, similar to the German umlauted "O"
"i" is neutral, as in "rich"
While we're at it, what about:
Josquin
Herreweghe
Dutoit
Ligeti
?
Great thread.
Michael
--
E-mail: mvs...@pitt.edu
Donald Patterson
Edwin wrote:
>
> Hey,
> I hate to do this again, but I believe after a few of this sort of
> thread, we haven't come to much of a common consensus on pronounciation.
> Anyway, the ones I'm really curious about are:
>
> Eugen Jochum
Oy-gen Yokhum
> Emil Gilels
> Charles Munch
Sharles Moonsch
> Sir Georg Solti
Gay-org Shohl-tee
> Rudolf Kempe
Roo-dohlf Kehm-peh
> Karl Bohm (sorry I can't remember how to do umlauts)
> Furtwangler
Fooert-vaengler
> Carl Schuricht
> George Szell
Zell
My best guesses.
--
Don Patterson <don...@erols.com>
"The President's Own"
United States Marine Band
Concerned about the state of the Mac?
Visit: http://www.MacMarines.com
The views expressed are my own and in no way reflect
those of the U.S. Marine Band or the Marine Corps.
Donald Patterson
Simon Roberts wrote:
> : Dutoit
>
> Dootwu, with emphasis on the second syllable.
>
No, Dew-twah. (Try to use a phony French accent here. ;-)
Chuck Nessa
I say Abernathy........courtesy of Bob & Ray.
CN
Matthew B. Tepper
Edwin wrote:
>
> Hey,
> I hate to do this again, but I believe after a few of this sort of
> thread, we haven't come to much of a common consensus on pronounciation.
> Anyway, the ones I'm really curious about are:
>
> Eugen Jochum
OY-gen YO-kum (yep, as in Mammy Yokum)
> Emil Gilels
AY-meel gil-ELZ (hard "g")
> Charles Munch
SHARL MOONSH (with the French "u"; but remember that he was an Alsatian,
and the name was originally Münch)
> Sir Georg Solti
George (yep, he likes it Englishified) SHOAL-tee
> Rudolf Kempe
ROO-dolf KEM-puh
> Karl Bohm (sorry I can't remember how to do umlauts)
BERM (more or less)
> Furtwangler
FOORT-veng-lur
> Carl Schuricht
SHOO-richt (with the "soft" German "ch" sound)
> George Szell
George SELL (yep, another Englishified "George")
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://www.deltanet.com/~ducky/index.htm
My main music page --- http://www.deltanet.com/~ducky/berlioz.htm
And my science fiction club's home page --- http://www.lasfs.org/
Curtis Croulet
> > Eugen Jochum
>
> Oy-gen yokum (the famous conductor from dogpatch)
This is, of course, standard German. However, many, many years ago,
Jochum conducted the Concertgebouw Orchestra in San Diego. The concert
was preceded by an announcement from the stage by some honcho of the
orchestra (I think it was just an expression of gratitude), and this guy
- with Jochum standing on the podium ready to start - pronounced Eugen's
first name as Oy-jeen.
> > Charles Munch
>
> Sharl Munk
Old-time collectors will remember seeing this on record labels spelled
as Muench, sometimes I think with an umlaut. FWIW, William Pierce
(radio announcer of the BSO) always pronounced it "Myoonch".
>
> > Sir Georg Solti
>
> Sholty
The bigger decision has to be with his first name, which Norman
Pellegrini (presumably with Solti's approval) pronounces simply as
"George." Before his CSO days, I usually heard it as a German "Georg"
(with hard g's at both ends). Isn't his Hungarian name Gyorgy? Of
course, his last name wasn't originally Solti, it was Stern.
> > George Szell
>
> zell
>
Not to argue, but shouldn't this be "sell?" I think Robert Conrad has
always pronounced it that way, and, being Hungarian, it would jive with
the "sz" in "Liszt."
Paul Kintzele
Simon Roberts (si...@dept.english.upenn.edu) wrote:
: : Dutoit
: Dootwu, with emphasis on the second syllable.
Shouldn't that be "Doo-twah"?
Paul K.
Mario De Angelis
The 'u' in french is pronunced the same way as the 'ü' (u with ümlaut)
in german. This is hard to describe in english since this phoneme
doesn't exist. However, Dutoit would be pronounced like 'dü-twah'.
Regards,
- Mario De Angelis
Montréal
Simon Roberts
Curtis Croulet (curt...@pe.net) wrote:
: The bigger decision has to be with his first name, which Norman
: Pellegrini (presumably with Solti's approval) pronounces simply as
: "George." Before his CSO days, I usually heard it as a German "Georg"
: (with hard g's at both ends). Isn't his Hungarian name Gyorgy? Of
: course, his last name wasn't originally Solti, it was Stern.
Solti has rendered himself almost English, and has lived in North London
for decades; one side effect of all this is changing the pronunciation to
"George;" makes the "Sir" bit easier.
Simon
Matthew B. Tepper
In article <33E7D9...@erols.com>, *NOSPAM*@erols.com was heard to
remark...
>
>> George Szell
>
>Zell
>
>
>My best guesses.
Incorrect, in this instance. In Hungarian "sz" is pronounced as
English-speakers would pronounce "s." And "s" is pronounced the way we
would pronounce "sh." Hence, Solti is pronounced "SHOAL-tee."
Matthew B. Tepper
In article <33E7E6...@pe.net>, curt...@pe.net was heard to
remark...
>
>> > Eugen Jochum
>>
>> Oy-gen yokum (the famous conductor from dogpatch)
>
>This is, of course, standard German. However, many, many years ago,
>Jochum conducted the Concertgebouw Orchestra in San Diego. The
>concert was preceded by an announcement from the stage by some honcho
>of the orchestra (I think it was just an expression of gratitude), and
>this guy - with Jochum standing on the podium ready to start -
>pronounced Eugen's first name as Oy-jeen.
Once in Minneapolis some local "indignitary" referred to Neville
Marriner, also standing on the podium ready to start, as "Melville
Marriner." I heard it. I was there.
And David Sarnoff, appearing between numbers on a Toscanini broadcast,
referred to the conductor as "Tosca-ninny."
>> > Sir Georg Solti
>>
>> Sholty
>
>The bigger decision has to be with his first name, which Norman
>Pellegrini (presumably with Solti's approval) pronounces simply as
>"George." Before his CSO days, I usually heard it as a German "Georg"
>(with hard g's at both ends). Isn't his Hungarian name Gyorgy? Of
>course, his last name wasn't originally Solti, it was Stern.
Solti has, I believe, preferred the English pronunciation of "George"
since he became a British subject. Supposedly, he would have preferred
respelling his name as George (it had indeed been György), save that it
was spelled Georg on the document with his knighthood.
Another Budapester who changed his name was Jenö Blau, who changed Jenö
to Eugene and Blau to Ormandy.
Yet another conductor who changed his name was Bruno Schlesinger, who
adopted a family name, Walter.
Varga Gyorgy
Michael Subotin <th...@shalt.not.spam> wrote:
>While we're at it, what about:
>
>Josquin
>Herreweghe
>Dutoit
>Ligeti
I'd go for Ligeti. Try li as in "list", get as in "get" and a final i as
in "in". Stress, as always in Hungarian, on the first syllable. (It's
three syllables: Li-ge-ti.)
--
Gyorgy Varga (umlaut on o)
Szeged, Hungary
e-mail: va...@dmi.szote.u-szeged.hu
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
There is an art to flying, or rather a knack. It lies in learning
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(Douglas Adams)
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Matthew B. Tepper
Edwin wrote:
>
> Okay, I got some more.
>
> Couperin
koo-puh-RAHN
> Rameau
rah-MOH
> Mengelberg
just like it's spelled
> Stokowski
Stokowski *was* indeed English (a Cockney of Irish and Polish ancestry,
in fact), but he affected a phoney-baloney accent, so probably would
have preferred stoh-KOFF-skee
> Mieczyslaw Horszowski
MYEH-chih-swoff hor-SHOFF-skee
> Malcuzynski
mahl-tsoo-ZIN-skee
And gesundheit!
john harkness
John Harkness writes:
Nat228 wrote:
>
> How about Neeme Jarvi? Did I spell it right? And this may be getting a
> bit too picky, but for Leonard Bernstein, is it Bern-stine or Bern-steen?
> And is Scriabin pronounced skree-ah-bin?
>
> Thanks in advance...
Nemm-uh Yairvee
When he wrote Kaddish and Jeremiah, Bernstine
When he wrote West Side Story, Bernsteen.
Just kidding, he claimed publicly to prefer Bernstein.
Nat228
>When he wrote Kaddish and Jeremiah, Bernstine
>
>When he wrote West Side Story, Bernsteen.
>
>Just kidding, he claimed publicly to prefer Bernstein.
>
>
Sorry to bring this up again, but he claimed to publicly to prefer
"Bernstein," which is how his name is spelled, but is pronounced...?
Simon Roberts
Peter Adamson (p...@st-and.ac.uk) wrote:
: All this talk of "difficult" names (many of which do at least seem to
: follow consistent national rules of spelling->pronunciation) reminds me
: that my own, simple, English name gets wildly differing treatment even
: in the UK (never mind from non-English speakers):
: SE England: Pay'-uh (long vowels and glottal stop half way)
: SW England: Peedurr (short rolled r)
: SE Scotland: Pi'urr (short 'ee', glottal stop and short trilled r)
: "foreigners": Peedurr (longer rolled r)
: Peetuh (first syllable long tight 'ee'),
: Pitairh (first syllable very short tight 'ee')
: etc, etc...
: None of these is how I pronounce it myself, but I don't mind in the
: least.
: Peter Adamson
I have a more-or-less English accent (with traces of my native Australian
thrown in occasionally to throw people off); you wouldn't believe the
difficulty I had once in a restaurant in central Illinois asking for a
glass of water with English pronunciation. I had to end up writing it
out. My pronunciation of my last name often ends up as "Rabbits" if I,
say, call a restaurant to make a reservation; usually I use my partner's
last name instead (it's difficult to screw up "Fox"). And as for all
those names the British dream up to fool foreigners (Cholmondeley =
Chumley; Trotterscliffe = Trosly; plus many worse that I can't remember
where the pronunciation suggests absolutely no connection with the
spelling) . . . .
Simon
CONSTANTIN MARCOU
Matthew B. Tepper wrote:
>
> Edwin wrote:
> >
> > Okay, I got some more.
> >
> > Couperin
>
> koo-puh-RAHN
>
> > Rameau
>
> rah-MOH
>
> > Mengelberg
>
> just like it's spelled
>
> > Stokowski
>
> Stokowski *was* indeed English (a Cockney of Irish and Polish ancestry,
> in fact), but he affected a phoney-baloney accent, so probably would
> have preferred stoh-KOFF-skee
>
> > Mieczyslaw Horszowski
>
> MYEH-chih-swoff hor-SHOFF-skee
>
> > Malcuzynski
>
> mahl-tsoo-ZIN-skee
>
Con
Lionel Tacchini
john harkness wrote:
>
> John Harkness writes:
>
> Edwin wrote:
> >
> > Hey,
> > I hate to do this again, but I believe after a few of this sort of
> > thread, we haven't come to much of a common consensus on pronounciation.
> > Anyway, the ones I'm really curious about are:
>
>
> Oy-gen yokum (the famous conductor from dogpatch)
More like "yorhoom".
German 'ch' is almost never like 'k' except when followed by an
's', like in "Lachs", "wachsen" ...
In "Jochum", it sounds like in "Nacht", "Bach" etc ...
German 'u' is 'oo', like in "room", even when followed by 'm'.
--
Lionel Tacchini ___ /---\
_.-| | (|~ ~|)
{ | | /=(_*_)=
Irren ist menschlich, "-.|___| / ( ) ))
aber wer richtigen Mist bauen will, .--'-`-. / ( ___ )))
braucht einen Computer .+|______|--- () ()
Rouat emmanuel
Lionel Tacchini wrote:
[snip]
>
> Sorry to have to correct you, but I had an original Dutch person
> pronounce it for me, and it sounded close to cow-ken, almost like
> cowr-ken, with a very guttural , unclear 'r' sound.
>
> --
> Lionel Tacchini
Hmm, sorry about that... I've only lived in Holland for 18 years
and speak fluently Dutch... ;-}
manu
Ryan Hare
Matthew B. Tepper (ducky....@deltanet.com) wrote:
: In article <5s96ki$s...@helka.iif.hu>, va...@dmi.szote.u-szeged.hu was
: heard to remark...
: >Sholty would be a better approximation. As for his original first
: >name, Gyo:rgy (which happens to be identical to Ligeti's, Szell's and
: >mine ;-)) I'm afraid I cannot give a hint in writing. It's totally
: >different from anything an English-speaking person can imagine.
: Trust me, we can imagine quite a bit. Such as the sad day many years
: from now, when you have passed on, and your funeral procession is
: accompanied by a ... dirge.
Well, what I've heard from my Hungarian acquitances is that it's something
like "djerdj," with the "er" being a sound similar to a German o with
umlaut. Sorta like "George" but with slightly different gs (harder
attack, more decay to the end) and the o umlaut.
Ryan Hare
rh...@u.washington.edu
Simon Roberts
Werner Sun (s...@cithe502.cithep.caltech.edu) wrote:
: Actually, it's pronounced "Stokovski". He once remarked that "there's
: no cow in my name" (or something like that).
No, it's in his conducting (sorry). This interesting thread proves
(inter alia) two things:
(1) If more people learned a little French and German at school,
most of these questions wouldn't arise; and
(2) It's awfully difficult to write out pronunciation. Which is much the
same as
(3) It's awfully difficult to write down music; which leads to
(4) one of the main problems with literalism in interpreting music.
Simon
Michael Subotin
Matthew B. Tepper wrote:
> > Emil Gilels
>
> AY-meel gil-ELZ (hard "g")
Sorry, that's not right.
a-MEEL GEEL-lels
"a" as in "apple"; "g" indeed hard.
For some reason Russian names tend be pronounced with incorrect
emphasis even by professional announcers. I've yet to hear
hear ANYONE on the radio saying "Rozhdestvensky" with the second
syllable stressed.
Michael
--
E-mail: mvs...@pitt.edu
Werner Sun
Werner Sun wrote:
>
Among the Romance
> languages, I think only French and German have this "u:" phoneme. But
> it also exists in some Asian languages, like Mandarin and Cantonese
> Chinese.
> --
> Werner Sun | s...@cithe502.cithep.caltech.edu
Whoops! German isn't a Romance language.
--
Werner Sun | s...@cithe502.cithep.caltech.edu
Peter Adamson
OK, folks, some more to play with:
Knudåge Riisager
Ruggero Gerlin [Italian? French? pronunciation; I'd like to know!]
Bidu Sayão
Szigeti [rhymes with Ligeti presumably, with initial 'ss' and stress on
first syllable, not as the zhi-GETTY we often get]
Hüe [problem there is partly a disagreement about whether the
the u or the e gets the uml-, uh, ?"tréma"]
Aüe [I think]
Hoérée [should be OK; I include it because it looks nice]
Purcell [!]
And while we're at it, we could start one on spelling -- the word
is PRONUNCIATION...
Peter Adamson
Jose Oscar Marques
On Tue, 05 Aug 1997 17:10:10 -0700 CONSTANTIN MARCOU
<conm...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> Heitor Villa-Lobos
>Eytor Viya-Lobosh
Ok, ey-TOR rhyming with "alligator".
Villa -> VEE-lah (in Portuguese the double L sounds just as a single L)
Lobos -> LOA-boos (as he was born in Rio he probably would pronounce it
"boosh"; as I live in the São Paulo State I pronounce it as above).
I am waiting for an answer to the question about which is the accented
syllable in Shostakovich.
--
Jose Oscar Marques
(to reply remove the X from my address)
Lani Spahr
Richard Schultz wrote:
>
> Edwin (tertu...@post1.com) wrote:
>
> : Mieczyslaw Horszowski
>
> It's *spelled* "Mieczyslaw Horszowski," but it's *pronounced*
> "Throatwobbler Mangrove."
I jsut KNEW this would happen eventually. (love it)
Cheers,
--
Lani Spahr
--------------
To reply, substitute .com for the .org in my address.
Matthew B. Tepper
In article <33ee2846...@snews.zippo.com>,
mar...@Xsuper.zippo.com was heard to remark...
>
>On Tue, 05 Aug 1997 17:10:10 -0700 CONSTANTIN MARCOU
><conm...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>>> Heitor Villa-Lobos
>>Eytor Viya-Lobosh
>
>Ok, ey-TOR rhyming with "alligator".
>
>Villa -> VEE-lah (in Portuguese the double L sounds just as a single
>L)
>
>Lobos -> LOA-boos (as he was born in Rio he probably would pronounce
>it "boosh"; as I live in the São Paulo State I pronounce it as above).
>
>I am waiting for an answer to the question about which is the accented
>syllable in Shostakovich.
Hope that helps! And thanks for the details regarding the
pronunciation of the great Brazilian composer.
>--
>Jose Oscar Marques
>(to reply remove the X from my address)
--
Michael Subotin
CONSTANTIN MARCOU wrote:
> Now, which is the accented syllable in Shostakovich,
I'm rooting for KO
> and what is
> "Shostak" analogous to (in the way that "Ivan" is John or "Stepan" is
> Stephen)?
We'll need someone who knows Ukranian or Belorussian to find that out,
I'm afraid.
>And is it pronounced "Borodin" or "Barodin"?
"Baradin", no less. There *is* an accent which would have it with o's,
though.
Michael
--
E-mail: mvs...@pitt.edu
HenryFogel
>
>CONSTANTIN MARCOU wrote:
>
>> Now, which is the accented syllable in Shostakovich,
>
>
It is shos tah KO vich. I can assure you of that because although I am
not Russian I worked for four years as executive director of the National
Symphony Orchestra in Washington, which was conducted by Rostropovich
(same syllable is accented, ros tra PO vich).
Henry Fogel
Brendan R. Wehrung
CONSTANTIN MARCOU (conm...@earthlink.net) writes:
> Matthew B. Tepper wrote:
>>
>> Edwin wrote:
>> >
>> > Okay, I got some more.
>> >
>> > Couperin
>>
>> koo-puh-RAHN
>>
>> > Rameau
>>
>> rah-MOH
>>
>> > Mengelberg
>>
>> just like it's spelled
>>
Wouldn't a Dutch-speaker say it Men-gel-behrg? At least in the U.S.
midwest the last "e" would come out short, like "iceberg".
Brendan Wehrung
lionel_...@mentorg.com
In article <33E83B...@dsys.ceng.cea.fr>,
Oh well ... could we be facing another one of those ugly dialect problems
a la Schtroumpf vert & vert Schtroumpf ? Are there different pronunciation
rules in various parts of holland (I know it's not that big, but you never
know) ?
To hell with it, let's get Harnoncourt's recordings instead ;-)
Lionel Tacchini.
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
T. J. Wood
Simon Roberts wrote:
>
> I have a more-or-less English accent (with traces of my native Australian
> thrown in occasionally to throw people off); you wouldn't believe the
> difficulty I had once in a restaurant in central Illinois asking for a
> glass of water with English pronunciation. I had to end up writing it
> out.
You should have asked for a sodee.
And I, from central Illinois, was once in a restaurant in Georgia, where
I was confounded when the waitress asked me if I wanted "rosa erba
toes." I finally figured out she meant "rolls or herbal toast."
The pronunciation thread always runs aground on problems of dialect:
someone pronounces
so-and-so's name like it's German, and then it's pointed out the he was
Dutch, and then that he was Frisian, and then it's pointed out that he
was raised in Poland, and then that he came to America and adopted a
"simplified" pronunciatiom, etc. etc. etc.
Purcell! pur-CELL or PUR-sul? I've heard English musicians say it both
ways.
Hank Purcell, who runs the grain elevator down the highway, says
per-CELL.
--
------------------------------------------------------
Thomas Wood
University of Illinois at Springfield
wo...@uis.edu
------------------------------------------------------
edgar m twamley
> Peter Adamson <p...@st-and.ac.uk> wrote in article
<5sc4jl$l...@calvin.st-and.ac.uk>...
> OK, folks, some more to play with:
> Bidu Sayão
>
> And while we're at it, we could start one on spelling -- the word
> is PRONUNCIATION...
>
> Peter Adamson
Finally there's one I can perhaps help out with.
Bidu Sayao is pronounced "Bee-Doo Sigh-Yow"
cheers.
PS. An old joke I'll have to convey to the ng. Eugene Goossens was in a
cab on the way to carnegie hall, and he and the driver started talking
musical conductors. The cabbie volunteered that he like Toscanini, and
his fare asked about several others, like Koussevitsky, Stokowski,
Fiedler, etc. The cab driver had positive opinions on all of them.
Finally Goossens asked, as casually as possible, "What do you think of
Goossens?"
The cabbie instantly replied "I think it's a damn dirty trick!"
Tom Brennan
On Thu, 07 Aug 1997 00:14:31 -0700, Michael Subotin
<th...@shalt.not.spam> wrote:
>CONSTANTIN MARCOU wrote:
>
>> Now, which is the accented syllable in Shostakovich,
>
>I'm rooting for KO
>
>> and what is
>> "Shostak" analogous to (in the way that "Ivan" is John or "Stepan" is
>> Stephen)?
>
>We'll need someone who knows Ukranian or Belorussian to find that out,
>I'm afraid.
Hmm, I remember being told by a Russian that it's the second syllable
in most names that is stressed, but don't know if that's true, or just
a figment of a foggy remembrance - as always take with a grain of
salt. :]
Tom
Michael Subotin
Tom Brennan wrote:
: Michael Subotin <th...@shalt.not.spam> wrote:
: >> Now, which is the accented syllable in Shostakovich,
: >
: >I'm rooting for KO
:
: Hmm, I remember being told by a Russian that it's the second syllable
: in most names that is stressed, but don't know if that's true, or just
: a figment of a foggy remembrance - as always take with a grain of
: salt. :]
You may be thinking of patronymic names, abour 80% of which do follow
this pattern. Surnames can have emphasis on any syllable. Names ending
with -ovich and -evich always have the penultimate syllable stessed.
Michael
--
E-mail: mvs...@pitt.edu
Curtis Croulet
> Sholty would be a better approximation. As for his original first name,
> Gyo:rgy (which happens to be identical to Ligeti's, Szell's and mine ;-))
> I'm afraid I cannot give a hint in writing. It's totally different from
> anything an English-speaking person can imagine.
Thank you for your authoritative answers. I've heard Gyorgy as (to use
English) "jerj" with very soft j's.
>
> >> George Szell
> >
> >Zell
> >
>
> Sell, except for the pronunciation of e. If you have Latin or Italian,
> think of the e in credo: it's the same.
>
Well, this means that in English it would approximately rhyme with
"sale." In his American years, I think he accepted "George Sell."
Michael Subotin
I wrote:
> Names ending
> with -ovich and -evich always have the penultimate syllable stessed.
Whoops! "Surnames", that is. Russian male patronymic names also have
these endings, but are pronounced differently.
Hope this helps
Michael
--
E-mail: mvs...@pitt.edu
Adam Komisaruk
>The 'u' in french is pronunced the same way as the 'ü' (u with ümlaut)
>in german. This is hard to describe in english since this phoneme
>doesn't exist. However, Dutoit would be pronounced like 'dü-twah'.
Well, when he conducts the Montreal Symphony, it's more like "du-TWOY"
Roland van Gaalen - Amsterdam - NL
Brendan R. Wehrung (ck...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA) wrote:
: > Matthew B. Tepper wrote:
: >> > Mengelberg
: >> just like it's spelled
: >>
: Wouldn't a Dutch-speaker say it Men-gel-behrg? At least in the U.S.
: midwest the last "e" would come out short, like "iceberg".
It's pronounced MENGelberg; first and last e's as in
"Wilhelm", "ng" as in "Furtwaengler" and the middle "e" like
Furtwaengler's last; last g like "ch" in "Eugen Jochum" (and "Bach")
Simon Roberts
Adam Komisaruk (*komi...@ucla.edu*) wrote:
: >The 'u' in french is pronunced the same way as the 'ü' (u with ümlaut)
: >in german. This is hard to describe in english since this phoneme
: >doesn't exist. However, Dutoit would be pronounced like 'dü-twah'.
: Well, when he conducts the Montreal Symphony, it's more like "du-TWOY"
Yes, but that's Canadian French, they make many sounds not recognizable in
France (and Switzerland, etc.), including the "oy" sound you noticed they
make for "oi."
Werner Sun
Mario De Angelis wrote:
>
> The 'u' in french is pronunced the same way as the 'ü' (u with ümlaut)
> in german. This is hard to describe in english since this phoneme
> doesn't exist. However, Dutoit would be pronounced like 'dü-twah'.
>
>
> - Mario De Angelis
> Montréal
Here are the best instructions I've heard on how to produce this sound:
pucker your lips as if you're about to kiss someone (leave a hole in the
middle for the sound to escape), and say "eeee". It seems unlikely, but
try it; it works (more or less)! This is one of those sounds (like the
"th" in "three") that are absolutely impossible to produce correctly
unless they exist in one's native language. Among the Romance
Matthew B. Tepper
Since when is German a "Romance language"? However, your intent was
obvious; "common Western European language" works just fine. :--)
And of course there are snobs such as myself who enjoy reminding people
that Catalan and Romanian are also Romance languages....
Werner Sun
Matthew B. Tepper wrote:
>
> Werner Sun wrote:
> >
> > Here are the best instructions I've heard on how to produce this
> > sound: pucker your lips as if you're about to kiss someone (leave a
> > hole in the middle for the sound to escape), and say "eeee". It seems
> > unlikely, but try it; it works (more or less)! This is one of those
> > sounds (like the "th" in "three") that are absolutely impossible to
> > produce correctly unless they exist in one's native language. Among
> > the Romance languages, I think only French and German have this "u:"
> > phoneme. But it also exists in some Asian languages, like Mandarin
> > and Cantonese Chinese.
> > --
> > Werner Sun | s...@cithe502.cithep.caltech.edu
>
> Since when is German a "Romance language"? However, your intent was
> obvious; "common Western European language" works just fine. :--)
>
> And of course there are snobs such as myself who enjoy reminding people
> that Catalan and Romanian are also Romance languages....
>
Quite true. I actually pointed out this error myself last week (my
original post got lost, so I reposted yesterday without thinking to
correct it).
So, I imagine that Catalan exhibits this odd phoneme, since its
pronunciation is heavily influenced by French, but does Romanian?
Come to think of it, I believe the Scandanavian languages (being
Germanic, except for Finnish, which is related to Japanese (!)) also use
this "u:". So, in fact, the question should probably be why _doesn't_
English have this sound?
--
Werner Sun | s...@cithe502.cithep.caltech.edu
Werner Sun
> Finnish is *not* related to Japanese (it's a Finno-Ugric language, and
> as such it's related to Hungarian (!));
Ah. Then I was misinformed. Sorry for spreading lies. I guess it
makes more sense this way...
>
> Homepage: ain't got one * * * Monteverdi rulez!
>
> Ockeghem rulez!
I wholeheartedly agree!
--
Werner Sun | s...@cithe502.cithep.caltech.edu
Matthew B. Tepper
Werner Sun wrote:
>
> Come to think of it, I believe the Scandanavian languages (being
> Germanic, except for Finnish, which is related to Japanese (!)) also
> use this "u:". So, in fact, the question should probably be why
> _doesn't_ English have this sound?
The only way in which Japanese and Finnish are related are via the fine
(yet little-known) conductor Akeo Watanabe, who had ancestors from both
those lands. He recorded a fine Sibelius cycle many years ago.
Don't know about the conductor Okko Kamu, though. :--)
Werner Sun
Matthew B. Tepper wrote:
>
> Werner Sun wrote:
> >
> > Come to think of it, I believe the Scandanavian languages (being
> > Germanic, except for Finnish, which is related to Japanese (!)) also
> > use this "u:". So, in fact, the question should probably be why
> > _doesn't_ English have this sound?
>
> The only way in which Japanese and Finnish are related are via the fine
> (yet little-known) conductor Akeo Watanabe, who had ancestors from both
> those lands. He recorded a fine Sibelius cycle many years ago.
>
> Don't know about the conductor Okko Kamu, though. :--)
>
Actually, I just did a quick search and came up with this, from
http://www.sal.tohoku.ac.jp/~nosem/main2.html:
"Linguistic studies on Internet, Uralic linguistics in Japan
Uralic & Finno-Ugric studies in Japan (For Uralic
researchers all over the world!)
Uralic languages and peoples are familiar with our Japanese. In
linguistics, for example, word order in Japanese (SOV) is very similar
to
Hungarian. Uralic languages and Japanese have many cases and
post-posed. Therefore, Uralic languages and peoples make us imagine
mysterious but familiar feelings. So, there are many Uralic researchers
in
Japan. For example, they are interested in Uralic in terms of
linguistics,
Ethnology, Anthropology, History, Literature, Sociology, Economics,
etc."
So, it seems that there is some similarity between Japanese and the
Finno-Ugric languages, but no firmly established familial relationship,
as I was claiming. Ah, well.
--
Werner Sun | s...@cithe502.cithep.caltech.edu
Varga Gyorgy
Werner Sun wrote:
>
> Matthew B. Tepper wrote:
> >
> > Werner Sun wrote:
> > >
> > > sound: pucker your lips as if you're about to kiss someone (leave a
> > > hole in the middle for the sound to escape), and say "eeee". It seems
> > > unlikely, but try it; it works (more or less)! This is one of those
> > > sounds (like the "th" in "three") that are absolutely impossible to
> > > produce correctly unless they exist in one's native language. Among
> > > the Romance languages, I think only French and German have this "u:"
> > > phoneme. But it also exists in some Asian languages, like Mandarin
> > > and Cantonese Chinese.
> > > --
> > > Werner Sun | s...@cithe502.cithep.caltech.edu
> >
> > Since when is German a "Romance language"? However, your intent was
> > obvious; "common Western European language" works just fine. :--)
> >
> > And of course there are snobs such as myself who enjoy reminding people
> > that Catalan and Romanian are also Romance languages....
> >
>
> Quite true. I actually pointed out this error myself last week (my
> original post got lost, so I reposted yesterday without thinking to
> correct it).
>
> So, I imagine that Catalan exhibits this odd phoneme, since its
> pronunciation is heavily influenced by French, but does Romanian?
>
> Germanic, except for Finnish, which is related to Japanese (!)) also use
> this "u:". So, in fact, the question should probably be why _doesn't_
> English have this sound?
> Werner Sun | s...@cithe502.cithep.caltech.edu
Uhmm... er... quite true, apart from two minor points, namely: 1.
Finnish is *not* related to Japanese (it's a Finno-Ugric language, and
as such it's related to Hungarian (!)); 2. Finnish has this sound,
marked "y" in writing.
And Hungarian also has this sound, marked u: (short) or u" (long). (u"
means an u with a double acute accent on it.)
--
Gyorgy Varga (umlaut on the o)
Szeged, Hungary, Europe, Earth, Solar system, Milky Way, Universe
Varga Gyorgy
Werner Sun wrote:
.....
> this "u:". So, in fact, the question should probably be why _doesn't_
> English have this sound?
But it might have had!
There is a recording titled "Worcester Fragments". It's 13th century
English sacred music, performed by the Orlando Consort (an English
all-male vocal ensemble). All texts are, of course, in Latin -- and they
pronounce *all* "u"s
as "u:"!
Now as the booklet says, they employed a pronunciation consultant, and
the ensemble's manifest aim is to take special care of the pronunciation
(as they state somewhere else).
So it seems possible that Middle English did have this sound. Whether it
was used generally, or just in Latin (church Latin?), I have no idea.
Interesting, anyway. Middle English scholars, please jump in!
The recording is fairly good, by the way.
Lis K. Froding
In article <33F17D...@cithe502.cithep.caltech.edu>,
Werner Sun <s...@cithe502.cithep.caltech.edu> wrote:
>this "u:". So, in fact, the question should probably be why _doesn't_
>English have this sound?
>--
>Werner Sun | s...@cithe502.cithep.caltech.edu
Scand-i-navian, okay?
Someone else has already mentioned that Japanese does not belong to
the Finno-Ugric language group, but Estonian and a language spoken in
the vicinity of the Ural Mountains do belong to that group.
Lis
Dudley Brooks
Michael Subotin <th...@shalt.not.spam> wrote:
<Tom Brennan wrote:
<
<: Michael Subotin <th...@shalt.not.spam> wrote:
<: >> Now, which is the accented syllable in Shostakovich,
<: >
<: >I'm rooting for KO
<:
<: Hmm, I remember being told by a Russian that it's the second syllable
<: in most names that is stressed, but don't know if that's true, or just
<: a figment of a foggy remembrance - as always take with a grain of
<: salt. :]
<You may be thinking of patronymic names, abour 80% of which do follow
<this pattern. Surnames can have emphasis on any syllable. Names ending
<with -ovich and -evich always have the penultimate syllable stessed.
I've heard (don't remember where, unfortunately) that Russian
accentuation, especially of names, varies regionally or even with speaker,
and that three composers' names are shos-TAK-ovitch, rimsky-kor-SAK-ov
(and "kor" would be pronounce "kahr", because unaccented before an
accented syllable), and even MUS-sorgsky.
And by the way -- is the story true about Dukas saying "'Helas' [accent
over e -- French for 'alas'] can be pronounced 'hela' or 'helasse'. My
name, helasse, is is pronounced 'Dukasse'."
-- Dudley Brooks
Run For Your Life!...
...it's a dance company!
San Francisco
http://www.best.com/~voices/