Great Pianists and their Pianos
Robert Newman
Steinway & Sons and I presume that nearly all of the
living Great Pianists play Steinways. I'd be interested
to know what makes of pianos were used in the earlier
recordings featured in the series and whether artists
such as Rachmaninoff, Schnabel, Cortot, etc., would stick
to one type of piano or be happy to play whatever was
available at the concert venue. Were certain makes of
piano associated with a particular type of sound? And
what type of pianos were available in the USSR? Were they
Western models or was there an official Soviet piano company?
I know there are recordings of e.g. Mozart and Beethoven
played on fortepianos, but would it not add extra interest
to new recordings of familiar repertoire if the pianos varied
more than they do? I guess it's partly a result of non-stop
travelling: the pianist flies from Tokyo to London to New
York and with little time for rehearsals needs the pianos to
be as similar as possible.
Rob
Nicolas Hodges
>Steinway & Sons and I presume that nearly all of the
>living Great Pianists play Steinways.
Imogen Cooper for example), but Schiff has recently been won back to
Steinways.
When the Wigmore was refurbished Cooper was the piano adviser and chose
a Bo:sendorfer which she said was the best piano she'd ever played. Now
Steinway Hall has the contract again the Bo:sendorfer was in the
Steinway Hall bargain basement! I haven't played the new Wigmore
Steinways.
The Southbank Centre still has a big fleet of oldish Steinways 'looked
after' by the appalling Peter Salisbury. Last time I was in there the
piano had an unnoticed broken treble string; the previous time the third
pedal didn't work and he refused to come to fix it until I threatened to
cancel the recital. When he arrived he told me I wasn't pushing the
pedal down hard enough (he's a piano tuner, I'm an international prize
winning pianist...), but when _he_ tried it still didn't work, so he
blamed the piano saying 'Steinway's 3rd pedal action is f***ing crap'.
It still didn't work properly after his 'fixing' it.
My next recital there I'm hiring one from Steinway Hall...
>I'd be interested
>to know what makes of pianos were used in the earlier
>recordings featured in the series and whether artists
>such as Rachmaninoff, Schnabel, Cortot, etc., would stick
>to one type of piano or be happy to play whatever was
>available at the concert venue.
Schnabel: Bechsteins, Cortot: Pleyel. I believe Bechsteins were
predominant at the start of the century. Not sure when Steinways came
in. Anyone have any more info?
>And
>what type of pianos were available in the USSR? Were they
>Western models or was there an official Soviet piano company?
I once asked a friend who was a student in the 1950s at the Moscow
Conservatoire this: she said no they weren't Russian pianos, they were
all Steinways. When I said surely that meant buying off the West, she
shrugged her shoulders and said 'but they were the best pianos'.
Be suspicious of people who say that recent (German) Steinways are bad -
the more I play them the more impressed I am by them. You need to play
at least 50 different ones to start making a judgement...
--
Nic (not a Steinway owner (alas))
Gyorgy Sajo
[snip]
> Schnabel: Bechsteins, Cortot: Pleyel. I believe Bechsteins were
> predominant at the start of the century. Not sure when Steinways came
> in. Anyone have any more info?
[snip]
I do not know, but there are some facts that suggest that it happened
quite early. As regarding Arthur Rubinstein, he was quite used to the
Bechstein in his youth, which he loved for the "beautiful tone and easy
action". Nevertheless, he chosed the Steinway already by 1917, when he was
able to acquire a good piano for himself, and the Steinway was the piano
he played during his first post-World War I visits to North America.
Though he previously played a great variety of pianos on his concerts -
Bechstein, Gaveau, Knabe, Bo:sendorfer etc. -, he also had the opportunity
to play the Steinway on various occasions. On his concert tour in Spain in
1916 he even played the Steinway that the Queen of Spain generously lent
to him.
Already at the turn of the century there was - at least in North America
- a hard competition among the various piano manufacturers, like the
Baldwin, the Knabe and the Steinway, which all hired pianist to play
exclusively their instruments on their concert tours. One of this early
"champions" of Steinway in the pre-World War I era was Joseph Levinne.
But all these say nothing about, when the predominance of Steinway has
began. Maybe someone else has the answer?
Gyorgy
Don Drewecki
For the longest time I have wanted to determine why the Steinway pianos
I have heard in recordings usually sounded brighter than actual
Steinways in the concert hall. This always disturbed me. In May, I got
the answer -- the different sound of the Hamburg Steinway from the
American. And I got lengthy explanations from Grigory Sokolov and his
friend, the piano technician Aleksandr Markovich of Steinway in New
York. The Hamburg Steinway's brighter, more ringing and clear sound
is the difference, and what I have heard mostly is the Hamburg
Steinway -- however, the less finicky, more robust American Steinways
can be altered to sound like the German ones, starting with different
hammers. What I heard in May at the Union College Chapel, and what I
recorded that evening, sounds just like those Hamburg Steinways, because
it was: Trucked up just for Sokolov (at a cost of $3,000) was CD-190,
and it was fantastic. And the recording is fantastic too. Now if only
GS would approve some of it for airplay on Performance Today!
--
Don Drewecki
<dre...@rpi.edu>
Matthias Schneider
preferred Baldwin pianos due to their special bass timbre.
Matthias Schneider
ral...@my-dejanews.com
and action, which he liked very much also....but....then his last years
were spent recording on the Bechstein....
ralf
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Nicolas Hodges
>Jorge Bolet
>preferred Baldwin pianos due to their special bass timbre.
His Decca Liszt Transcendentals is on a Bechstein, which sounds god-
awful to my ears.
--
Nic
Andy Evans
often very good - Ronnie Scott's jazz club in London had one which was
played by many of the great jazz pianists. I played one or two in East
Germany in the 70s and liked them.
I never played a Pleyel, but several pianists told me the action of these
pianos (as played by Cortot etc..) was light, and enabled a different
playing technique. I'm sure experienced concert pianists can say more about
this. Andy.
ANicholls
> Jorge Bolet preferred Baldwin pianos due to their special bass timbre.
In the UK he played Bechstein, or at least did on the occasions when I heard
him live.
Mark
ral...@my-dejanews.com
"Andy Evans" <arts.ps...@cwcom.net> wrote:
> The 'Soviet' piano for quite a while was the Petrov. 70s and 80s models were
> often very good - Ronnie Scott's jazz club in London had one which was
> played by many of the great jazz pianists. I played one or two in East
> Germany in the 70s and liked them.
I believe Ivan Moravec recorded some on the Petroff, but can't say
which ones...
> I never played a Pleyel, but several pianists told me the action of these
> pianos (as played by Cortot etc..) was light, and enabled a different
> playing technique. I'm sure experienced concert pianists can say more about
> this. Andy.
>
There is a recent recording of a Chopin concerto w/Emanuel Ax playing
a Pleyel...haven't heard it yet, so cannot comment as to the
sounds, etc....
ral...@my-dejanews.com
Last night a broadcast :"Live From Lincoln Center" was the anniverary
concert of the the Lincoln Center Chamber Society (or something
like that...) ....prominently
featured in the program were 2 gorgeous Hamburg Steinway Ds....
maybe Alice Tulley Hall had them specially brought in for
this concert....mostly "Live From Lincoln Center" has had
American Steinway Ds when they have something w/piano in it....
Both pianos sounded good, but it was broadcast miking after
all....no big difference between one Hamburg D or the other.
The Hamburg pianos tend to sound the same, no matter who
plays them...the American pianos, reveal more about the
artist....the Hamburg piano has more of a "ready made" sound...
maybe that's why so many of todays' pianists sound the same?
Have you noticed?...can you tell the pianist by his tone?
You can put Hamburg Steinway hammers on an american piano...
but...you also have to change the bass strings, etc....Hamburg
hammers are alot heavier, so you'll have to re-weigh the
action and regulation will have to be completely re-done
[you're talking about alot of money]...you will add innertia
to the key feel, too,no doubt.....and you may not like
or want the change....[generally the Hamburg Steinways have
fewer colors, and are clear, but a bit colder sounding (to me)
than the American Steinways....the Hamburg sound relects
the European taste and is also heard in the voicing of
the Bechstein,Boesendorfer,Bluthner, etc...Each piano has
its own signature, but the clear, bright sound and the
attack is characteristic of many European pianos. Part of it
has to do with the hammers they use, usually Renner or
sometimes Abel. Another "clear" sounding piano is the
Fazioli. Clear is not always better, however.....its a
matter of taste, and what you want....and is beautiful
in its own way....
i believe Horowitz used the American Steinway for that
reason...yes...he had used the Hamburg Steinway in Europe,
but found the American sound with its orchestral color
pallet more to his liking....and being
who he was, was able to travel with his own American piano.
You will find that other pianists like Rubinstein were using
both Hamburg or American Steinways ....
Either NY or Hamburg pianos can be made bright or mellow, that's just
voicing....I've played side by side an American D
and a Hamburg D...and since they were well used NY concert
pianos, prepped by the same techs...i didn't see or hear that much
difference in either...both instruments were voiced bright to
project in larger halls. Both instruments played about the same....
i also did not experience with these pianos anything
too special about the Hamburg Steinway....they both are wonderful
when properly prepped and properly voiced....take your choice...
ralf
In article <700s7j$g...@lecture.its.rpi.edu>,
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
Nicolas Hodges
>The 'Soviet' piano for quite a while was the Petrov. 70s and 80s models were
>often very good - Ronnie Scott's jazz club in London had one which was
>played by many of the great jazz pianists. I played one or two in East
>Germany in the 70s and liked them.
Of course it's a Soviet piano by nationality, but it's not THE piano in
the sense of their first choice. The piano in the Great Hall in the
Conservatoire for example has always been a Steinway as far as I know
(from both personal reminiscence and photos).
>I never played a Pleyel, but several pianists told me the action of these
>pianos (as played by Cortot etc..) was light, and enabled a different
>playing technique.
Light and very flexible - lovely. I once played exactly the model which
Cortot used and it was remarkable (it had just been restored).
If I were rich I would certainly buy a Pleyel grand, as well as a
Steinway, a Graf, a Broadwood (1828-ish, no earlier: to get the range
for Schubert) and a Streicher (for Schumann). Oh and a Pleyel Cottage
piano for the Chopin Preludes (those who know why get a Brownie
point...)
--
Nic
Nicolas Hodges
>The Hamburg pianos tend to sound the same, no matter who
>plays them...the American pianos, reveal more about the
>artist....the Hamburg piano has more of a "ready made" sound...
>maybe that's why so many of todays' pianists sound the same?
>I've played side by side an American D
>and a Hamburg D...and since they were well used NY concert
>pianos, prepped by the same techs...i didn't see or hear that much
>difference in either...both instruments were voiced bright to
>project in larger halls. Both instruments played about the same....
>i also did not experience with these pianos anything
>too special about the Hamburg Steinway....they both are wonderful
>when properly prepped and properly voiced....take your choice...
These two paragraphs seem contradictory.
Do you mean that an American D is innately better than a German D?
Or that they are usually just set up better?
--
Nic
Don Drewecki
Ralf:
Thanks very much for the additional information on the Hamburg D.
I should add that Aleks Markovich also prefers the American
Steinway, as it can cut through an orchestra in a big hall better
than the Hamburg. But in part, my dissatisfaction may result from
hearing our local American Steinways abused or mistuned.
Sadly, the piano tuner never showed up for Boris Berezovsky's
recital at Union College last week, which I taped. It was a
disaster, and broke my heart because the program -- Ravel La
Valse, Gaspard de la Nuit, and Musorgsky's Pictures -- was an
outstanding one and drew a large and appreciative crowd. But the
recording is worthless, and BB just hung in there like a trouper
despite the lack of tuning.
--
Don Drewecki
<dre...@rpi.edu>
Jeremy Cook
[snip]
> Oh and a Pleyel Cottage piano for the Chopin Preludes (those
> who know why get a Brownie point...)
I'm willing to take a shot at it... didn't Pleyel send Chopin a piano
when he travelled with George Sand to Mallorca, where he finished the
Preludes?
Wayne Reimer
>
> In article <36251...@news1.mcmail.com>, Andy Evans
> <arts.ps...@cwcom.net> writes
> >The 'Soviet' piano for quite a while was the Petrov.
Just for those who might be interested, the part of the Soviet Union in
which Petrovs were made was Czechoslovakia. And were being made long
before the Soviet days, having been founded in 1864.
Wayne
Peter Lemken
>Both pianos sounded good, but it was broadcast miking after
>all....no big difference between one Hamburg D or the other.
>The Hamburg pianos tend to sound the same, no matter who
>plays them...the American pianos, reveal more about the
>artist....the Hamburg piano has more of a "ready made" sound...
Do you know how to spell BS?
>maybe that's why so many of todays' pianists sound the same?
>Have you noticed?...can you tell the pianist by his tone?
Well, maybe (or probably) not all of them, but I guess my hit
rate in guessing recordings (in blind listening sessions)
by Brendel, Afanassiev, Zhukov, Richter, Ashkenazy, Backhaus,
Kempff, Cortot, Horowitz, Schnabel and some others exceeds
90%.
Does that qualify?
It is a fact that every American piano dealer concedes that
European Steinways are much better, be it only simply for the
fact that the Hamburg factory takes a lot more care in finishing
the piano than the one in New York, which leaves it to the
sales outlet to prep them as good as they can. And - no offence -
meant, American piano technicians are nowhere near the class
of any European Steinway technician prepping a concert grand.
Christ, they are even giving credits to an American piano
technician on a recording (and I am talking about someone with
a big name and a reputation) that records a piano badly out
of tune right on from the first bar.
Apart from that, the American way of prepping the piano's action
is doomed to hide the dynamic and coloristic characteristics
the pianist in question has: It is way too light, unresponsive,
does not hat a point to fix the hammer's position after striking
the key and does not respond to anything above Forte or below
Piano. And this is the quotation of a remark by a pianist who
hasn't only overcome these obstacles, but also has played Steinway
pianos for more than 50 years.
Peter Lemken
Chicago
Peter Lemken
>In article <36251...@news1.mcmail.com>, Andy Evans
>If I were rich I would certainly buy a Pleyel grand, as well as a
>Steinway, a Graf, a Broadwood (1828-ish, no earlier: to get the range
>for Schubert) and a Streicher (for Schumann). Oh and a Pleyel Cottage
>piano for the Chopin Preludes (those who know why get a Brownie
>point...)
Oh, you mean the dreadful one he had to use in Mallorca when he
composed the Preludes. Can you get me my Brownie point in giving out an
e-mail address that actually works?
Peter Lemken
Chicago
Nicolas Hodges
<ple...@mail.blinx.de> writes
Ah, no, for that you need two Brownie points. The second can only be
obtained by listening to Pollini properly so that you finally appreciate
that he is a great pianist.
;-)
Newsreply@ is set to bounce automatically.
I've set the header on this one to nic@ which is the real one.
--
Nic
ral...@my-dejanews.com
> These two paragraphs seem contradictory.
>
> Do you mean that an American D is innately better than a German D?
> Or that they are usually just set up better?
> --
> Nic
NO....2 different pianists playing a Hamburg Steinway D will sound
more similar than those same 2 pianists playing an American Steinway.
There is no "better" about it....but a matter of choice/taste....
you either go for the American sound or the Hamburg sound...but...
they can be made to sound very close to each other...at least...
at first hearing...you'd have to play them side by side for a
couple of hours, i think to see what i mean...
ralf
ral...@my-dejanews.com
> hearing our local American Steinways abused or mistuned.
Don...an abused Hamburg Steinway also sounds bad... :-[ ...
>
> Sadly, the piano tuner never showed up for Boris Berezovsky's
> recital at Union College last week, which I taped. It was a
> disaster, and broke my heart because the program -- Ravel La
> Valse, Gaspard de la Nuit, and Musorgsky's Pictures -- was an
> outstanding one and drew a large and appreciative crowd. But the
> recording is worthless, and BB just hung in there like a trouper
> despite the lack of tuning.
R:...similar things happened here when Gustavo Romero appeared in
Rachmaninoff's 3rd to an unprepped and barely tuned American Steinway...
[left in the theater all summer ...temps up to 90 degrees and humidity
too....can't blame the piano...but can blame the people who take
care of/or own it...well...its one of those theaters where there's
no AC in the summer and no climate controlled store rooms for the
piano....you can imagine!...it could be a great piano...but...]
....like the college i visited this week...the piano was
back stage in a cold theater right next to the outside wall...and
a huge single pane glass window from 1895...with cracks and leaks
in it...i tried the piano out, just for fun
...even if it were tuned, it would still just be barely serviceable....
Gustavo played great...but the piano was a disgrace... :-|
Its amazing how these concert artists can make a piano sound
better than it really is...isn't it?...
ral...@my-dejanews.com
Peter....i'm splitting hairs....as they say...you might enjoy
the CD "Steinway Dynasty" hearing both the Hamburg and American
Steinway Ds played by the same pianist....
> Well, maybe (or probably) not all of them, but I guess my hit
> rate in guessing recordings (in blind listening sessions)
> by Brendel, Afanassiev, Zhukov, Richter, Ashkenazy, Backhaus,
> Kempff, Cortot, Horowitz, Schnabel and some others exceeds
> 90%.
R:...you have a good ear...but...Schnabel is playing Bechstein...
Horowitz is playing an American Steinway, the others sound like
a Hamburg Steinway to me...so...i'm more listening to the
sound of the piano, i guess....style of playing is also
a clue....however, i can also tell Rachmaninoff from Hoffman
on an American Steinway....yet...listining to the Nimbus piano
rolls of the above and others....recoreded on their Hamburg
Steinway....can't tell much difference in _tone_ one from
the other...perhaps a limitation of the Duo-art system....
ofcouse, now style is another story, huh?
P: Does that qualify?
>
R:..you have a much more sensitive ear than I, perhaps...
P:> It is a fact that every American piano dealer concedes that
> European Steinways are much better, be it only simply for the
> fact that the Hamburg factory takes a lot more care in finishing
> the piano than the one in New York, which leaves it to the
> sales outlet to prep them as good as they can. And - no offence -
> meant, American piano technicians are nowhere near the class
> of any European Steinway technician prepping a concert grand.
>
R:...i agree...but the tone and resonance is also very different...
and i wish we had the rigorous system here they have in
Germany....
P: Christ, they are even giving credits to an American piano
> technician on a recording (and I am talking about someone with
> a big name and a reputation) that records a piano badly out
> of tune right on from the first bar.
>
R:...and worse....uneven voicing....
P:> Apart from that, the American way of prepping the piano's action
> is doomed to hide the dynamic and coloristic characteristics
> the pianist in question has: It is way too light, unresponsive,
> does not hat a point to fix the hammer's position after striking
> the key and does not respond to anything above Forte or below
> Piano. And this is the quotation of a remark by a pianist who
> hasn't only overcome these obstacles, but also has played Steinway
> pianos for more than 50 years.
R:..tell that one to Horowitz.... :-)....the Hamburg D i played
didn't feel any better or more sensative than the American D
right next to it...and i was very miffed, as i'd sort of bought
into all the Hamburg is better hype....
your comments are well, taken, though...
Dan Koren
This shouldn't be too hard to figure out. Remember who won WWII and what
happened during WWII to the industries of a few European countries where
competing instruments were made? Another pretty obvious reason is that
after WWII concert halls started to get quite a bit larger and like it
or not Steinways can produce a more powerful sound than others.
Personally, I tend not to like Steinways. More often than not I find
they sound too bright and too metallic for my taste. There's also this
business of having three very distinct sounding registers (though it
certainly helps bring out inner voices in some music) and their rather
short and non-linear key travel. My favorite piani are Bechsteins from
the 1920's and '30s, with their magnificently clear, mellow and uniform
velvety sound and their medium actions. Listen to the recordings of
Lipatti, Schnabel and Harold Samuel to get an idea how wonderful these
instruments could be. I also like Pleyels for the French repertoire and
for Chopin. Among current production instruments, Yamaha's CF-3 come
closest to the Bechstein sound, just a tad brighter. I also heard
wonderful sound from Fazioli, and rumor has it that Orgato's are
even better (though I never managed to hear one).
dk
Nicolas Hodges
>Personally, I tend not to like Steinways. More often than not I find
>they sound too bright and too metallic for my taste. There's also this
>business of having three very distinct sounding registers (though it
>certainly helps bring out inner voices in some music) and their rather
>short and non-linear key travel. My favorite piani are Bechsteins from
>the 1920's and '30s, with their magnificently clear, mellow and uniform
>velvety sound and their medium actions.
recordings? I've never played one which wasn't god-awful - people say
they (the old ones) simply didn't have the strength to survive: however
much rebuilding one does it's not the same (or rather, it's not as
good). But then even ones with new soundboards have the characteristic
out of tune, out of focus, non-existent palette.
>Listen to the recordings of
>Lipatti, Schnabel and Harold Samuel to get an idea how wonderful these
>instruments could be.
_Then_ perhaps...
>I also like Pleyels for the French repertoire and
>for Chopin.
Sure
>Among current production instruments, Yamaha's CF-3 come
>closest to the Bechstein sound, just a tad brighter.
Been a time since I played that model - and also they never seem to last
too well either...
>I also heard
>wonderful sound from Fazioli
Hmm (mellow but anonymous was my judgement - after playing the whole UK
hire fleet)
>and rumor has it that Orgato's are
>even better (though I never managed to hear one).
Nor me.
The best piano I have ever played was a Hamburg Steinway, prepared by
Ammann. It was stunning.
--
Nic
Dan Koren
Nicolas Hodges <news...@nbh-beauval.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <dkF148...@netcom.com>, Dan Koren <d...@netcom.com> writes
>>Personally, I tend not to like Steinways. More often than not I find
>>they sound too bright and too metallic for my taste. There's also this
>>business of having three very distinct sounding registers (though it
>>certainly helps bring out inner voices in some music) and their rather
>>short and non-linear key travel. My favorite piani are Bechsteins from
>>the 1920's and '30s, with their magnificently clear, mellow and uniform
>>velvety sound and their medium actions.
>
>Have you actually played one which was like that?
Yes, I grew up in a house with 3 piani. My mother's 1929 Bechstein, my
father's 1936 Hamburg Steinway, and a Grotrian upright for the kid! :)
>Or do you mean from recordings?
No, very few commercial recordings were made on Bechsteins.
>I've never played one which wasn't god-awful - people say they (the
>old ones) simply didn't have the strength to survive: however much
They are sensitive instruments.
>rebuilding one does it's not the same (or rather, it's not as good).
>But then even ones with new soundboards have the characteristic out
>of tune, out of focus, non-existent palette.
I don't think the art of piano building has improved since the '20s
and '30s.
>>Among current production instruments, Yamaha's CF-3 come closest to
>>the Bechstein sound, just a tad brighter.
>
>Been a time since I played that model - and also they never seem to
>last too well either...
Sorry to hear that. I can't afford one anyway.
>>I also heard wonderful sound from Fazioli
>Hmm (mellow but anonymous was my judgement - after playing the whole
>UK hire fleet)
How many instruments is that? 3?
>>and rumor has it that Orgato's are even better (though I never
>>managed to hear one).
>Nor me.
>
>The best piano I have ever played was a Hamburg Steinway, prepared
>by Ammann. It was stunning.
Lucky you! Did you break any strings?
:)
dk
Paul Goldstein
eberha14 asked about . . .
>Some say the 10'2'' Fazioli F308 is the best piano ever made
>(too bad they only make 2 of them every year). You can see a picture of
>one at their website: http://www.telenia.it/fazioli/f308.htm
>Also an article and picture at: http://www.hkapa.edu/press_fazioli.htm
>Apparent price tag: ~$194,000
>
>I don't suppose anyone knows of any recordings that were made on this
>particular model of Fazioli?
I know that Tal and Groethuysen's wonderful 3-volume set of Schubert's
4-hands piano music on Sony was recorded on *a* Fazioli; not being a piano
connoisseur, I have no idea what the model number was, but it sounds like
the instrument described above.
Paul Goldstein
Dan Koren
eberha14 <eber...@pilot.msu.edu> wrote:
>Dan Koren wrote:
>> Personally, I tend not to like Steinways. More often than not I find
>> they sound too bright and too metallic for my taste. There's also this
>> business of having three very distinct sounding registers (though it
>> certainly helps bring out inner voices in some music) and their rather
>> short and non-linear key travel. My favorite piani are Bechsteins from
>> the 1920's and '30s, with their magnificently clear, mellow and uniform
>> Lipatti, Schnabel and Harold Samuel to get an idea how wonderful these
>> for Chopin. Among current production instruments, Yamaha's CF-3 come
>> closest to the Bechstein sound, just a tad brighter. I also heard
>> wonderful sound from Fazioli, and rumor has it that Orgato's are
>> even better (though I never managed to hear one).
>(too bad they only make 2 of them every year). You can see a picture of
>one at their website: http://www.telenia.it/fazioli/f308.htm
>Also an article and picture at: http://www.hkapa.edu/press_fazioli.htm
>Apparent price tag: ~$194,000
And what are the real prices? :)
>I don't suppose anyone knows of any recordings that were made on this
>particular model of Fazioli?
Pavane Records have issued a series of recordings made by
Queen Elisabeth competition winners (e.g. Vadim Rudenko or
Alexander Melnikov) using Fazioli piani. However I don't
know if they were specifically F308's or smaller models.
Their sound is gorgeous.
dk
Dan Koren
>>(too bad they only make 2 of them every year). You can see a picture of
>>one at their website: http://www.telenia.it/fazioli/f308.htm
>>Also an article and picture at: http://www.hkapa.edu/press_fazioli.htm
>>Apparent price tag: ~$194,000
>>
>>particular model of Fazioli?
>
>4-hands piano music on Sony was recorded on *a* Fazioli; not being a piano
>connoisseur, I have no idea what the model number was, but it sounds like
>the instrument described above.
9' and 10' instruments are rarely used for chamber music,
mostly for concerts with orchestra.
dk
Gaspard314
>particular model of Fazioli?
Marc-Andre Hamelin's Godowsky disc on CBC's Musica Viva label was recorded on
Fazioli, but the recording gives no information whatever as to which model
Fazioli it is. It's pictured on the cover, and it looks quite large. How large
I can't say.
Paul
Russell W. Miller
>
>I know that Tal and Groethuysen's wonderful 3-volume set of Schubert's
>4-hands piano music on Sony was recorded on *a* Fazioli; not being a piano
>connoisseur, I have no idea what the model number was, but it sounds like
>the instrument described above.
>
Yes, it's a 308, according to the CD booklet.
Wayne Reimer
>
<...>
> Some say the 10'2'' Fazioli F308 is the best piano ever made
> (too bad they only make 2 of them every year). You can see a picture of
> one at their website: http://www.telenia.it/fazioli/f308.htm
> Also an article and picture at: http://www.hkapa.edu/press_fazioli.htm
> Apparent price tag: ~$194,000
>
> particular model of Fazioli?
>
There is a recording specifically made to compare the sound (recorded
sound would be more accurate, I guess) of various pianos. Included in
the comparison is a Fazioli F 308, along with four other manufacturers'
pianos. The recording is Tacet 34, pianist is Gerrit Zitterbart, the
other pianos are Bechstein, Boesendorfer, Steinway, and Yamaha. The
piece used for straight-across comparison is Boris Blacher's "What about
this, Mr. Clementi". Then there is also each piano played in a piece
chosen by the pianist and the producer which they felt would show off
the best characteristics of each piano. For the Fazioli, the piece is
the Scriabin Sonata 4.
Wayne
Edward Jasiewicz
sale at a store in Manhattan in the 1980s. (It had what was to me an
unusual, "squared" back end to its design.) The management there allowed
me, a young student then, lots of time to practice on it (which was really a
godsend considering the competition over practice time at the school I
attended...). I completely fell in love with that piano, but unfortunately
didn't have the absurdly fair amount of $5,000.00 to purchase it (not to
mention the room in my 2'X2' living space called an apartment at the
time...). Since then, I've played a few decent newer Bechsteins, including
one at Pittsburgh's Chatham College's campus that had been really tweaked
well by a German technician as part of the purchase agreement. It, too, was
a beautiful instrument - much more to my liking than most newer Steinways in
the last 30 years or so. Technician's have described this decline in
Steinway's successes as in part a result of the lack of experience
accumulated by many of the technician's today on assembly lines (as the
standard was a generation ago at Steinway).
On the other hand, even the newer Bechsteins reflect a decline in quality
today, IMO. I practice everyday on a 1915 Steinway that is almost as
soulful as that early Bechstein I loved so much. BTW, Pianist Eunice Norton
(student of Schnabel's, yet a "Steinway Artist" in the 1920s and 30s)
commented that he stated that he likened Bechsteins (at least during his
active years) to *pearls* in tone quality, and Steinways to *diamonds*, and
added that he simply preferred pearls to diamonds. But, I believe the
comparative sensitivity and quality of each company's product (from the
early part of this century, at least) also had a lot to do with the quality
of materials that are no longer available today. Some affecting factors no
doubt include the mature wood of older trees (for, though the laws have
protected "some" of the world's rainforests, they haven't necessarily
benefited the piano industry), felt with a sufficient quality and amount of
lanolin left intact, duration of wood-preparing techniques, and of course
sheer time put in by an experienced technician after the instrument has left
the factory.
One final thought, Norton's recordings have mostly been recorded on her
~1915 Steinway "B." This is a piano that will definitely reveal a pianist's
questionable tone quality if it is played with anything less than the utmost
of attention to tending to the best sound. (Likewise, it has been quite fun
to hear many pianists who are used to newer instruments play it for the
first time over the years and confront this manner of a revealing test.) It
is really the opposite of what Chopin used to call the "ready-made tone
quality" of Erard pianos of his time - which strikes me as probably a propos
for a description of today's instrument's, at any rate.
E.J.
oh, and to stick to the topic of this thread a bit more closely for a
moment, anyone ever notice the tendency of most past great pianists to favor
light-actioned pianos, like Horowitz's touring instrument of a few years
ago?
Nicolas Hodges
>In article <tWakwGAN...@nbh-beauval.demon.co.uk>,
>Nicolas Hodges <news...@nbh-beauval.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>In article <dkF148...@netcom.com>, Dan Koren <d...@netcom.com> writes
>>>they sound too bright and too metallic for my taste. There's also this
>>>business of having three very distinct sounding registers (though it
>>>certainly helps bring out inner voices in some music) and their rather
>>>short and non-linear key travel. My favorite piani are Bechsteins from
>>>the 1920's and '30s, with their magnificently clear, mellow and uniform
>>>velvety sound and their medium actions.
>>
>
>Yes, I grew up in a house with 3 piani. My mother's 1929 Bechstein, my
>father's 1936 Hamburg Steinway, and a Grotrian upright for the kid! :)
So is your view based on your memories as a child? Romantic hindsight
perhaps?! ;-)
>>I've never played one which wasn't god-awful - people say they (the
>>old ones) simply didn't have the strength to survive: however much
>
>They are sensitive instruments.
So are Steinways. Perhaps you could be more specific?
>>rebuilding one does it's not the same (or rather, it's not as good).
>>But then even ones with new soundboards have the characteristic out
>>of tune, out of focus, non-existent palette.
>
>I don't think the art of piano building has improved since the '20s
>and '30s.
The art of precision engineering has though. A lot of the
characteristics of Bechsteins are a result of sloppiness - particularly
the tone and impossibility of getting them in tune.
>>>I also heard wonderful sound from Fazioli
>>Hmm (mellow but anonymous was my judgement - after playing the whole
>>UK hire fleet)
>
>How many instruments is that? 3?
Yup. You got it. But that's all there will ever be here at this rate, so
it's academic...
>>The best piano I have ever played was a Hamburg Steinway, prepared
>>by Ammann. It was stunning.
>
>Lucky you! Did you break any strings?
Yes, I was lucky; and no I didn't.
(next recording to be made in Germany on one of his - I hope)
So what's the piano you've most enjoyed performing on? Perhaps that's a
different question (which is why I ask it)...
--
Nic
Dan Koren
Nicolas Hodges <news...@nbh-beauval.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <dkF14y...@netcom.com>, Dan Koren <d...@netcom.com> writes
>>In article <tWakwGAN...@nbh-beauval.demon.co.uk>,
>>Nicolas Hodges <news...@nbh-beauval.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>In article <dkF148...@netcom.com>, Dan Koren <d...@netcom.com> writes
>>>>Personally, I tend not to like Steinways. More often than not I find
>>>>they sound too bright and too metallic for my taste. There's also this
>>>>business of having three very distinct sounding registers (though it
>>>>certainly helps bring out inner voices in some music) and their rather
>>>>short and non-linear key travel. My favorite piani are Bechsteins from
>>>>the 1920's and '30s, with their magnificently clear, mellow and uniform
>>>>velvety sound and their medium actions.
>>>
>>>Have you actually played one which was like that?
>>
>>Yes, I grew up in a house with 3 piani. My mother's 1929 Bechstein, my
>>father's 1936 Hamburg Steinway, and a Grotrian upright for the kid! :)
>
>So is your view based on your memories as a child?
My memories are quite accurate, thank you. Not to mention the fact that
I slaved so many hours on those instruments that I am not likely to ever
forget them even if I completely lose all my brain function... :)
>Romantic hindsight perhaps?! ;-)
Not at all. I've also heard and touched other Bechsteins than my own.
>>I don't think the art of piano building has improved since the '20s
>>and '30s.
>
>The art of precision engineering has though.
Unfortunately that hasn't filtered down into piano building quite as
much as it has into bikes and ski equipment :)
>So what's the piano you've most enjoyed performing on? Perhaps that's
>a different question (which is why I ask it)...
I am not a performing artist and I have not played for other people
since I was 18 (and that was very long time ago). So I'm afraid I
cannot answer your question... 8-(
dk
Dan Koren
Wayne Reimer <rei...@hooked.net> wrote:
>> >The 'Soviet' piano for quite a while was the Petrov.
>
>Just for those who might be interested, the part of the Soviet Union in
>which Petrovs were made was Czechoslovakia. And were being made long
>before the Soviet days, having been founded in 1864.
This is correct, but only partially so. The Petrov Piano Co.
also made piani in Russia, and that also started before the
Soviet days (I believe in the 1880's or '90s).
dk
Wayne Reimer
This isn't mentioned in the company's history found at their website,
but then it may not be part of their official history any more. BTW, I
noticed that the spelling they use is Petrof.
Wayne
A. F. T.
>... My favorite piani are Bechsteins from
>Lipatti, Schnabel and Harold Samuel to get an idea how wonderful these
>instruments could be.
I "second" Dan enthusiastically in regard to these wonderful
instruments! Thus, despite the charms of noise-free stereo and modern
depth of sound, there is a beautiful sensual elegance of tone in the
recordings of artists he mentions.
How about opinions of the Gieseking Debussy items on EMI, and their
replication of "piano sound" (disregarding the matters of
interpretation)?
I would enjoy the plangent tone of Martin Jones' recordings of Debussy
on Nimbus, were it not for the 'Tepper-detested' ambience and
phasiness (and I certainly wouldn't suggest that Jones is necessarily
a "Great Pianist" worthy of this discussion, but rather that he uses a
rich-sounding instrument.)
Our particular Yamaha C-7 had a brilliant harshness and prominent
overtones that made the typical Steinway seem "mellow"; luckily, our
skilled tuner and instrumental consultant modified the hammers, voiced
it, and ran little strips of felt around the strings near the tuning
posts to dampen some of the HF partials...now it sounds at least
"tolerable" though one longs for the richness of those incomparable
Bechsteins!
AFT
Yenda Smejkal
and having played one in a shop earlier in the year I can understand why -
tremendous sound; silver top register, and wonderful deep base. But for the
best base there is nothing which can compete with an old Bluthner! Pleyels are
also wonderful - listen to some of the sounds of Alfred Cortot (I am pretty
certain he used a Pleyel).
For a wonderful sound and a magnificent base register also listen to Magda
Tagliaferro on a Gaveau in the 1930s - Dante historical piano series - wonderful
performances, and the piano just adds the edge of wonderment1
Every good wish,
Yenda.
Dan Koren
It isn't mentioned simply because the Soviets took over the Petrov piano
factory in St. Petersburg after the 1917 revolution (just like everything
else), so from that point on it was no longer part of the mother company.
dk
Peter Breiner
Yes, but they not only renamed it, the quality of those instruments was
pretty dreadful...
Originally it's PETROF (based in Hradec Kralove, today Czech Republic) and
it's not a special spelling of a name....try to read it backwards.
Peter Breiner
pbre...@interlog.com
http://www.interlog.com/~pbreiner/pbh.htm
Wayne Reimer
>>> dk
Boy, am I getting confused. So there was/is a Soviet/Russian piano
factory in Leningrad/St. Petersburg that made/makes Petrovs and isn't
connected to the factory in the Czech Republic that makes Petrofs any
longer, but was in the pre-Revolutionary days. And the Czech factory
doesn't mention any of this on their website, although they do refer to
the state take-over of the Czech operations, and also go into some
detail about the pre-Communist history of the firm. Oh, well....
Wayne
Joao Baptista
Dan Koren wrote in message ...
|In article <362FFA49...@hooked.net>,
|Wayne Reimer <rei...@hooked.net> wrote:
|>Dan Koren wrote:
|>>
|>> In article <3626DE1E...@hooked.net>,
|>> Wayne Reimer <rei...@hooked.net> wrote:
|>> >Nicolas Hodges wrote:
|>> >>
|>> >> In article <36251...@news1.mcmail.com>, Andy Evans
|>> >> <arts.ps...@cwcom.net> writes
|
>> >> >The 'Soviet' piano for quite a while was the Petrov.
|>This isn't mentioned in the company's history found at their website,
|>but then it may not be part of their official history any more. BTW, I
|>noticed that the spelling they use is Petrof.
The question of the spelling is, I believe, a matter of taste. In russian,
all the words that finish with letter V ( better, with the correspondent, in
cyrilic, to V ), are read as if it were a F. That's a phonetic phenomenon
called deafness of the consonants.
Regards,
***********************************
Joao Pedro Baptista
Law Student
Lisbon - Portugal
JBat...@mail.EUnet.pt
***********************************
Jeremy Cook
>
> In article <712uu2$qn6$1...@news.interlog.com>,
> Peter Breiner <pbre...@interlog.com> wrote:
> >
> >Originally it's PETROF (based in Hradec Kralove, today Czech Republic)
> >and it's not a special spelling of a name....try to read it backwards.
>
> founder of the company, one Antonin Petrof. Pure coincidence?
> Or are you rewriting history?
Reminds me of an urban legend that went around some years ago regarding
high-priced athletic footwear. I was told that the name "Adidas" was an
acronym for "All Day I Dream About Sex," in some sort of subliminal
attempt to pervert the minds of inner-city youth. The person who told
me this scolded me for being "naive enough" to believe that the company
was founded and owned by an individual named Adi Daschler. But, as Yogi
(or was it Casey?) used to say, "You can look it up!"
Dan Koren
A. F. T. <Fictitious_Address@##NOSPAM##Juno.com> wrote:
>On Tue, 20 Oct 1998 07:58:44 GMT, d...@netcom.com (Dan Koren) wrote:
>>... My favorite piani are Bechsteins from
>>the 1920's and '30s, with their magnificently clear, mellow and uniform
>>velvety sound and their medium actions. Listen to the recordings of
>>Lipatti, Schnabel and Harold Samuel to get an idea how wonderful these
>>instruments could be.
>
>I "second" Dan enthusiastically in regard to these wonderful
>instruments! Thus, despite the charms of noise-free stereo and modern
>depth of sound, there is a beautiful sensual elegance of tone in the
>recordings of artists he mentions.
>
>How about opinions of the Gieseking Debussy items on EMI, and their
>replication of "piano sound" (disregarding the matters of
>interpretation)?
One cannot divorce interpretation (or at least touch) from sound.
An instrument will not sound the same in different hands. This is
a lesson I learned in the most surprising, and compelling fashion
when I heard in Kempff and Richter perform in the same hall on the
same instrument within 3 weeks of each other partially overlapping
programs (Beethoven op. 110). I can assure you that if one had not
known ahead of time, one would not have been able to tell that it
was the same instrument.
dk
Dan Koren
Peter Breiner <pbre...@interlog.com> wrote:
>
>Originally it's PETROF (based in Hradec Kralove, today Czech Republic)
>and it's not a special spelling of a name....try to read it backwards.
Regardless of which it happens to be the name of the actual
founder of the company, one Antonin Petrof. Pure coincidence?
Or are you rewriting history?
dk
A. F. T.
I would like to re-ask my question
>>How about opinions of the Gieseking Debussy items on EMI, and their
>>replication of "piano sound"
and grant that
>One cannot divorce interpretation (or at least touch) from sound.
AFT
Dan Koren
Yenda Smejkal <YSme...@mirfield.org.uk> wrote:
>It is interesting to note that Gieseking favoured the Gotrian-Steinweg piano -
>and having played one in a shop earlier in the year I can understand why -
>tremendous sound; silver top register, and wonderful deep base. But for the
>best base there is nothing which can compete with an old Bluthner!
For best base nothing can compete with timpani. Why bother with a
piano at all?
dk