Brautigam fortepianos Haydn Sonatas
Rugby
equal time to this BBC Radio 3 recital :
"Part of a series of four concerts celebrating the music of Haydn in
the 200th anniversary year of his death. Leading Dutch pianist Ronald
Brautigam performs a solo programme on fortepiano in the banqueting
room of the newly refurbished Belfast City Hall, as part of the 47th
Belfast Festival at Queen's.
Haydn: Sonata No 42 in G H XVI 27; Sonata No 43 in E flat, H XVI 28;
Sonata No 55 in B flat, H XVI 41; Fantasia in C, H XVII 4; Variations
on Gott erhalte - after H III 77; Sonata No 58 in C, H XVI 58."
A whole recital of Haydn sonatas on fortepiano ; for those here who
self-flagellate ?
Rugby
Bob Lombard
> On Tue, 17 Nov 2009 10:42:56 +1100, Rugby wrote
> (in article
> <77f2a152-98ac-46c3...@l13g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>):
>
I think he is not a *great* player, because he doesn't 'rise to the
occasion' often enough; too many merely competent recordings.
bl
Gerard
> After going on and on about Iowa's Haydn quartet fest, I should give
> equal time to this BBC Radio 3 recital :
>
I don't know why you are referring to a recital (as so often).
Brautigam has recorded al those sonatas for BIS; these recordings are available.
What's your opinion about them?
CharlesSmith
You have to pay for BIS recordings. A recital on BBCR3 is FREE.
The BBC give the impression that it's a live recital:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00ntd52
But in fact it was recorded a few weeks ago:
http://tinyurl.com/ygcy5ho
And only one hour (including news bulletin) so any self-flagellation
should be relatively mild.
Charles
AN
The news is worse.
Gerard
> On 17 Nov, 09:34, "Gerard" <ghen_nospam_drik...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Rugby wrote:
> > > After going on and on about Iowa's Haydn quartet fest, I should
> > > give equal time to this BBC Radio 3 recital :
> >
> > I don't know why you are referring to a recital (as so often).
> > Brautigam has recorded al those sonatas for BIS; these recordings
> > are available. What's your opinion about them?
>
> You have to pay for BIS recordings.
In this case not much: 15 CD's for 60 Euro.
And if all those stories are true: BIS recordings can be heard free (each track
half?) on the Naxos site.
> A recital on BBCR3 is FREE.
But not exactly what /this/ newsgroup is about.
Rugby
> But not exactly what /this/ newsgroup is about.
Silly me ! I thought a Medici TV, YouTube, BBC Radio , NPR, PBS, or
the like, account of a performance, usually a few days or weeks or
older as Charles notes, but even if not, would be considered a
"recording" within the definition used by this NG just as would a CD,
Cd-r, SACD, 33 lp, 45, 78, roll, cylinder,reel tape,mp3,ma4,flac,wav,
and the like.
I even thought reviews of recitals were helpful in suggesting good
live efforts that might suggest purchasing their cd if the artist has
also recorded the pieces played, or may do so if performing them live
but not having yet recorded, as well as efforts of unrecorded artists
whose good live efforts would merit looking for hoped-for recordings.
Or that newsworthy events such as Dudamel's debut were worthy of note
and discussion as giving background and insight to related
recordings, eg in the Dudamel discussion many points were raised about
past great Mahler # 1 recordings by older conductors.
We must also avoid all cd's of live recitals ? DVD and VCR ?
Was going to post a review of Aimard's latest recital in NYC, some
pieces he either has or will probably record, but I'll keep it to
myself as I will all other discoveries made, and matters of interest,
that are not studio recordings so Gerard doesn't have to make the
effort to raise his finger and click past posts which offend his
definitions.
Rugby
Bob Lombard
Hmm. You seem to have taken umbrage. That is never done in this NG.
So... you have double-faulted, Steve.
bl
AN
Are you in the US able to view the video on the page to which you link?
O
Lombard <thorste...@vermontel.net> wrote:
Did someone Dare to speak about music in this political group, again??
-Owen
CharlesSmith
So I risk getting a severe reprimand from the moderators?
The recital has now appeared on the BBC iPlayer - same link as
earlier. My initial impression was quite negative. The instrument has
a hard steely tone and a tendency towards a uniform mezzoforte sound,
which was quite wearing (flagellation with little twigs?) especially
in the semiquaver passages in the earlier sonatas. However things
continually improved. Brautigam was obviously working very hard -
phrasing, dynamics - to get more exression out of his rather difficult
instrument. By the time we got to the emperor variations I was
enjoying it, and I thought the final H48 sonata was very good. I think
perhaps this sonata has more impact through having more textural
variety. That or my ears became accustomed to the timbre, or perhaps
the instrument itself had warmed up. I'd be interested to know whether
others hear this gradual improvement.
Since we are here to discuss recordings and only recordings, I went to
the BIS/Naxos site to listen to half of this final movement in the
integral product on sale from BIS (15 discs for the price of 3!). The
recorded instrument is much easier on the ear - less metallic. However
Brautigam doesn't seem to be putting in the same effort to shape the
music, and it comes over rather dull and expresionless. So in this one
instance I much prefer the live performance - far more drive and
exhuberance.
Charles
Gerard
> On Nov 17, 5:17 am, "Gerard" <ghen_nospam_drik...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > But not exactly what /this/ newsgroup is about.
>
> Silly me ! I thought a Medici TV, YouTube, BBC Radio , NPR, PBS, or
> the like, account of a performance, usually a few days or weeks or
> older as Charles notes, but even if not, would be considered a
> "recording" within the definition used by this NG just as would a CD,
> Cd-r, SACD, 33 lp, 45, 78, roll, cylinder,reel tape,mp3,ma4,flac,wav,
> and the like.
You might have noticed that most participants (almost all) mostly write about
commercially available (or have been available) recordings. There are so many of
those that it is impossible to listen also to everything you mention here coming
from one or more dozens of radio stations and youtubes. Who can?
>
> I even thought reviews of recitals were helpful in suggesting good
> live efforts that might suggest purchasing their cd if the artist has
> also recorded the pieces played,
No really, not always. There are so many differences between live performances
and recordings.
Have you never seen those comments about conductors who deliver many dull
recordings while in concert they are so, so "undull"?
>
> or may do so if performing them live
> but not having yet recorded, as well as efforts of unrecorded artists
> whose good live efforts would merit looking for hoped-for recordings.
While most of those hoped-for-recordings never will be made?
>
> Or that newsworthy events such as Dudamel's debut were worthy of note
> and discussion as giving background and insight to related
> recordings, eg in the Dudamel discussion many points were raised about
> past great Mahler # 1 recordings by older conductors.
>
> We must also avoid all cd's of live recitals ? DVD and VCR ?
>
> Was going to post a review of Aimard's latest recital in NYC, some
> pieces he either has or will probably record, but I'll keep it to
> myself as I will all other discoveries made, and matters of interest,
> that are not studio recordings so Gerard doesn't have to make the
> effort to raise his finger and click past posts which offend his
> definitions.
>
> Rugby
Right. You 'always' give me the feeling that you are 'operating' in the wrong
newsgroup (although the subjects are related). But maybe you're multi-posting
(posting everything in different ngs and forums that are related to classical
music).
There are so many "matters of interest" that nobody can see it all, unless one
spends the whole day. So some kind of restriction is very usefull (for those who
don't particiate in all ngs and forums about classical music and all what is
related) and not a bad thing.
Is that a problem?
Simon Roberts
Rugby says...
Umm.... some of us like Haydn sonatas, even several in a row played on
fortepianos, for reasons unrelated to masochism or self-punishment. That said,
I'm glad to see reports that Brautigam's playing is more interesting in this
concert than his studio efforts.
Simon
William Sommerwerck
> played on fortepianos, for reasons unrelated to masochism or
> self-punishment. That said, I'm glad to see reports that
> Brautigam's playing is more interesting in this concert than
> his studio efforts.
That's good to hear. His recorded performances are uncomfortably reminiscent
of Carlos Kleiber's conducting.
I happen to like the "wooden" sound of the fortepiano.
jrsnfld
> In article <77f2a152-98ac-46c3-aa34-e47d7d6cf...@l13g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>,
I don't know Brautigam's recordings (though BIS's price makes them
sorely tempting). I have heard him do much Haydn in broadcasts,
however, and he is consistently very good. His live complete Beethoven
sonata cycle was one of the highlights of the summer broadcast season.
--Jeff
CharlesSmith
wrote:
The fortepiano on Brautigam's BIS Haydn recordings sounds woody to me.
The instrument in yesterday's broadcast is different, quite metallic,
almost like a harpischord sound. There's a section in the broadcast
where Brautigam describes his instrument and why it has that sound.
The point I was trying to make yesterday is that he seemed to be able
to coax more expression out of this more metallic instrument. Of
course that might have been the excitement of the live concert, rather
than a simple property of the instrument.
The listen again link's still there. Does this work everywhere or is
it restricted to the UK?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00ntd52
Charles
Gerard
>
> The listen again link's still there. Does this work everywhere or is
> it restricted to the UK?
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00ntd52
>
> Charles
Here it says (as always):
"This content doesn't seem to be working. Try again later."
CharlesSmith
It's working fine from here, but obviously not everywhere. I've
uploaded a sample:
http://www.mediafire.com/?qzej2n3uhgy
Charles
wimpie
<grizzledgee...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> That's good to hear. His recorded performances are uncomfortably reminiscent
> of Carlos Kleiber's conducting.
>
> I happen to like the "wooden" sound of the fortepiano.
Ehr? Even in a recording studio Kleiber was a genius, can't say the
same about Brautigam!! He has recorded tons of Beethoven, Mozart and
Haydn and although he is a competent player, I have always found him
invariably boring. No match for someone like Andreas Staier, who has
done some very exciting Haydn and Mozart on fortepiano.
W.
td
> In article <UeyMm.34557$Vr1.11...@en-nntp-01.dc1.easynews.com>, Bob
If so, it would surely not have been you!
TD
William Sommerwerck
>> uncomfortably reminiscent of Carlos Kleiber's conducting.
> Ehr? Even in a recording studio Kleiber was a genius, can't
> say the same about Brautigam!! He has recorded tons of
> Beethoven, Mozart and Haydn and although he is a competent
> player, I have always found him invariably boring.
I was referring to the way Brautigam has an insistent "pressing forward"
quality, like many of Kleiber's recorded performances.
My favorite Haydn sonatas are the Capriccio set, which is at the moment
unavailable. The clavierist (I can't think of her name) uses multiple
instruments, and offers by far the most imaginative and committed
performances. Strongly recommended if you can find it.
jwl...@yahoo.com
catalog?
joel
Johannes Roehl
> My favorite Haydn sonatas are the Capriccio set, which is at the moment
> unavailable. The clavierist (I can't think of her name) uses multiple
> instruments, and offers by far the most imaginative and committed
> performances. Strongly recommended if you can find it.
Christine Schornsheim; she uses at least 5 different instruments (2
different fortepianos, 2 or more different harpsichords, and for one
disc a clavichord). I think that it may be available from European
sources without too much trouble.
Johannes
Ricky Jimenez
You only seem to get what they are currently broadcasting. Can
somebody post a link that will get you to the Bautigam Haydn recital?
Thanks.
William Sommerwerck
Rush right out in a buying frenzy!
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Haydn-Complete-Sonatas-Franz-Joseph/dp/B0007IK4WE
I remember paying around $50 for this set. Anything much more is too much.
laraine
I think many musicians would prefer to save
money and watch or listen to free 'recordings'
of music on YouTube, BBC3, etc. And they're
the ones who likely most need to do the
listening and analyzing. Plus, as you suggest,
more information before buying is often good.
I will try to listen to the Brautigam if and when
I get a chance because I'd like to learn more
about fortepianos. I get the feeling sometimes
that 18th century music doesn't sound quite
bright enough on a modern piano, and I'm
wondering if the fortepiano would help. Plus
I'm guessing that the touch would be easier
than that of the more resistant piano.
C.
Al Eisner
BBC Radio 3 "listen again" programs, including this one, work fine in
the U.S.A (although there have been criticisms of the sound quality).
It's only their videos which are apparently restricted to U.K. (There's
an example of one -- apparently an interview -- on that same web page.)
--
Al Eisner
Ricky Jimenez
Has anybody been able to listen to the entire Haydn/Bautigam program
in the past 24 hours?. Even though there is a link which seems to
claim it will play the program, it doesn't.
Al Eisner
There's something wrong at the moment -- it claims to be playing this
program, but it instead plays a duifferent luncheon concert. The link
to "Episode 2", Haydn piano trios including Brautigam, does give the
correct program.
--
Al Eisner
Simon Roberts
jrsnfld says...
>
>On Nov 17, 1:36=A0pm, Simon Roberts <s...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> In article <77f2a152-98ac-46c3-aa34-e47d7d6cf...@l13g2000yqb.googlegroups=
>.com>,
>> Rugby says...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >After going on and on about Iowa's Haydn quartet fest, I should give
>> >equal time to this BBC Radio 3 recital :
>>
>> >"Part of a series of four concerts celebrating the music of Haydn in
>> >the 200th anniversary year of his death. Leading Dutch pianist Ronald
>> >Brautigam performs a solo programme on fortepiano in the banqueting
>> >room of the newly refurbished Belfast City Hall, as part of the 47th
>> >Belfast Festival at Queen's.
>>
>> >Haydn: Sonata No 42 in G H XVI 27; Sonata No 43 in E flat, H XVI 28;
>> >Sonata No 55 in B flat, H XVI 41; Fantasia in C, H XVII 4; Variations
>> >on Gott erhalte - after H III 77; Sonata No 58 in C, H XVI 58."
>>
>> >A whole recital of Haydn sonatas on fortepiano ; for those here who
>> >self-flagellate ?
>>
>> fortepianos, for reasons unrelated to masochism or self-punishment. =A0Th=
>at said,
>> I'm glad to see reports that Brautigam's playing is more interesting in t=
>his
>> concert than his studio efforts.
>>
>> Simon
>
>I don't know Brautigam's recordings (though BIS's price makes them
>sorely tempting). I have heard him do much Haydn in broadcasts,
>however, and he is consistently very good. His live complete Beethoven
>sonata cycle was one of the highlights of the summer broadcast season.
I didn't mean to sound as negative about his studio recordings as my comment
looks. They're well-played and well-recorded (though I find the Mozart sonatas
etc. way too reverberant), but in Haydn he seems too concerned with smoothness,
both in terms of sonority (his fortepianos are rather far removed from the
wheezy rattletraps that were dragged out in many an early fortepiano recording;
I rather miss them...) and interpretation, especially compared with, say,
Schornsheim, Staier, Beghin, Bilson and a few others. It all sounds very easy
and modern. His Beethoven sonatas strike me as quite a bit more characterful,
though there's usually a hint of "safety first" about the proceedings (his
Hammerklavier i, for instance, is notably tamer than Peter Serkin's). On the
other hand, I can't summon up any enthusiasm for his Beethoven concertos (modern
piano this time) with Parrott, which sound awfully small-scale - almost timid.
Simon
jonathan morgan
> ([Brautigam's] Hammerklavier i, for instance, is notably tamer than Peter Serkin's).
Whose isn't?! Actually, I see that Gulda's (Brilliant) is even
quicker, but it doesn't sound quite as wild - mainly because he's got
a fully functioning instrument. I'm normally a great fortepiano fan,
but Serkin's Graf is just a bit too close to the edge for me...
Jonathan
Simon Roberts
jonathan morgan says...
>
>On Nov 19, 9:33=A0pm, Simon Roberts <s...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> ([Brautigam's] Hammerklavier i, for instance, is notably tamer than Peter=
> Serkin's). =A0
>
>Whose isn't?! Actually, I see that Gulda's (Brilliant) is even
>quicker, but it doesn't sound quite as wild - mainly because he's got
>a fully functioning instrument. I'm normally a great fortepiano fan,
>but Serkin's Graf is just a bit too close to the edge for me...
If you can find it, try Michael Korstick's in the first movement; well-behaved
modern piano, but much less "cool" than Gulda. (It's on Ars Musici and will
presumably reappear in the Oehms series, just as his Ars Musici Liszt sonata
reappeared on a Liszt disc on cpo.)
Simon
Rugby
> There are so many "matters of interest" that nobody can see it all, unless one
> spends the whole day. So some kind of restriction is very usefull (for those who
> don't particiate in all ngs and forums about classical music and all what is
> related) and not a bad thing.
You seem to spend much of each day here; perhaps your limited time
would be better utilized spending more time at those "matters of
interest" ? Some others here would encourage you to do so as well I'm
sure.
A very simple "restriction" is to use your index ( or perhaps more
appropriately your middle) finger and simply "click" past the
"offending" post. Seems preferable to the censorship you decry at the
other place.There are many posts here that do not interest me in the
least or may not technically be about " recordings" ( your "nazi"
jouts with M Forever for example ) , but I just click by rather than
bitch.
I cant find the post where this ng elected you moderator.Until I hear
complaints by others my judgments are faulty,my posts a hinderance,
I'll try to judge appropriately what is within the scope of this ng,
what not, and suggest you do likewise, so neither of us are problem
for our fellows here.
Regards, Rugby
Gerard
> On Nov 17, 9:22 am, "Gerard" <ghen_nospam_drik...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > There are so many "matters of interest" that nobody can see it all,
> > unless one spends the whole day. So some kind of restriction is
> > very usefull (for those who don't particiate in all ngs and forums
> > about classical music and all what is related) and not a bad thing.
>
> You seem to spend much of each day here;
Isn't that different from starting a new thread every time I see somewhere words
like "classical music"?
>
> I'll try to judge appropriately what is within the scope of this ng,
> what not, and suggest you do likewise,
See above.
Rugby
wrote:
>
> Isn't that different from starting a new thread every time I see somewhere words
> like "classical music"?
Not if one never brings anything new, depending on others to do so
then crticizing their efforts; and "new' certainly preferable to
"nazi" threads.Hey, just kill-file me so life will be good for you
again; and I'll ignore all yours; and everyone here will then live
happily ever after.
Rugby
Matthew�B.�Tepper
to be typed in news:e6b2af72-fb33-475e-b901-ae3e806b3dd9
@k19g2000yqc.googlegroups.com:
> On Nov 21, 10:44�am, "Gerard" <ghen_nospam_driksen�@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> Isn't that different from starting a new thread every time I see
>> somewhere words like "classical music"?
>
> Not if one never brings anything new, depending on others to do so then
> crticizing their efforts; and "new' certainly preferable to "nazi"
> threads. Hey, just kill-file me so life will be good for you again; and
> I'll ignore all yours; and everyone here will then live happily ever
> after.
Indeed; anybody who doesn't like me and/or what I write or how I write
should just killfile me. The option exists, and anybody who doesn't avail
himself of it is foolish to keep complaining.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
Read about "Proty" here: http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers
Gerard
> On Nov 21, 10:44 am, "Gerard" <ghen_nospam_driksen�@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > Isn't that different from starting a new thread every time I see
> > somewhere words like "classical music"?
>
> Not if one never brings anything new,
If you're referring to me here, you're telling a lie.
laraine
I managed to listen to Part 2, the Trios, and I thought it
was a good chamber performance, with a tight ensemble.
The fortepiano seemed to take some dominance.
Something about this particular fortepiano sound bothered
me, and it may have had to do with the acoustics, but at
times it sounded as though two manuals were playing the
same note (i.e., as though two people were playing two
pianos, same notes). Also, a bit of tinkling, which I'm
sure is undesirable to most. The bass, when you heard
it, did sound somewhat like that of a harpsichord, yet
darker.
I think the sound was definitely brighter than that of a
modern piano, and that contributed to making these
pieces sound more festive, as though you were outdoors
rather than in a concert hall. The violin sometimes had a
trumpet-like timbre too, and again maybe the acoustics
of the room were unusual. My impression is that this
style can work well with Haydn.
Brautigam said that an Alberti bass is more transparent
and not as overwhelming on fortepiano as it is on modern
piano, which can make a difference, he said particularly
in non-concerto pieces.
Similarly, I get the impression that, for example, when
the 1st movt of say the Waldstein is played with fortepiano,
one can achieve great speed that sounds light. That rolling
bass is so hard to keep soft on a modern piano --as
soon as one plays faster, it invariably gets louder and more
powerful (in places that are supposed to stay soft).
C.