Brahms 4 preferences

[Bob Harper]

I know there was a thread about this not too long ago, but I'm unable to
find it. Recommendations, either alone or in a set.

TIA.

Bob Harper

[gggg...@gmail.com]

This 2007 review article may be of interest:

http://www.classicalnotes.net/classics2/brahmsfourth.html

[stanpu...@gmail.com]

Reiner/RPO Chesky
Bernstein/NYPO
Munch/BSO

There are three. DFD/Czech Philharmonic is an interesting alternative or if going historical Furtwangler or Toscanini/Philharmonia.

Stan Punzel

[Randy Lane]

Carlos Kleiber/DG

[MIFrost]

Levine/Chicago
https://www.amazon.com/Brahms-Symphonies-Concerto-German-Requiem/dp/B004H6P2LU/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_15_img_0?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=ZFG3NGXX4DZDWQZBFZDR

Outstanding set of the whole Brahms cycle.

MIFrost

[Oscar]

We don’t promote James L_v_n_ around here anymore. #timesup

[Oscar]

FWIW, Hurwitz is on the record as preferring L_v_n_’s VPO Brahms cycle from the 1980’s (DG) to the earlier RCA set.

[MIFrost]

On Wednesday, July 25, 2018 at 7:00:13 PM UTC-4, Oscar wrote:
> FWIW, Hurwitz is on the record as preferring L_v_n_’s VPO Brahms cycle from the 1980’s (DG) to the earlier RCA set.

I wouldn't say that. Here's the pertinent passage:

His RCA complete symphony cycle with the Chicago Symphony is one of the best ones, but is only available at present in Japan. This DG set never was released in its entirety in the USA, making its appearance “on demand” from Arkivmusic.com one of the most important and valuable of all of its major-label licensed productions. The performances are stunning, a bit weightier than the Chicago recordings, but still taut, rhythmically sharp, and exciting.

[MIFrost]

On Wednesday, July 25, 2018 at 7:05:25 PM UTC-4, dk wrote:
>
> Bernstein/NYPO is no match for Bernstein/VPO.
>

Really? You like his VPO cycle? I find it horribly slow and almost painful to listen to. Just my two cents.

MIFrost

[Bozo]

>On Wednesday, July 25, 2018 at 6:05:25 PM UTC-5, dk wrote:
> All the others are nothing more
> than mere semi-conductors! ;-)


Bruno Walter , Columbia Symphony.

[MIFrost]

Agree. Excellent. The whole cycle. Anyone but me care for Chailly's cycle?

MIFrost

[AB]

On Wednesday, July 25, 2018 at 7:05:25 PM UTC-4, dk wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 25, 2018 at 9:58:18 PM UTC+2, stanpu...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Reiner/RPO Chesky
> > Bernstein/NYPO
> > Munch/BSO
>
> Reiner sounds too slick and driven.

> Bernstein/NYPO is no match for Bernstein/VPO.

> Munch is not even in the running!
>
> Celibidache is the only conductor
> that makes the music unfold and
> develop naturally as it it were
> improvised right then and there.

>
> All the others are nothing more
> than mere semi-conductors! ;-)
>

> dk

I am 'shocked' at your comments.

AB

[MIFrost]

On Wednesday, July 25, 2018 at 7:05:25 PM UTC-4, dk wrote:
>
> Celibidache is the only conductor
> that makes the music unfold and
> develop naturally as it it were
> improvised right then and there.
>

> dk

With which orchestra?

MIFrost

[Frank Berger]

On 7/25/2018 6:58 PM, Oscar wrote:
> We don’t promote James L_v_n_ around here anymore. #timesup
>

To the trash heap with him; along with Mark Twain.

[Bob Harper]

Look at Dan's first preference and the reasons behind his opinion are clear.

Bob Harper

[Oscar]

Frank, I tore off all the spines of the tray cards of my L_v_n_ CDs so I don’t have to look at his name. I know where to find the music should I need to listen to it. For reference, of course, not for pleasure.

[Frank Berger]

On 7/25/2018 7:05 PM, dk wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 25, 2018 at 9:58:18 PM UTC+2, stanpu...@gmail.com wrote:
>> Reiner/RPO Chesky
>> Bernstein/NYPO
>> Munch/BSO
>
> Reiner sounds too slick and driven.

> Bernstein/NYPO is no match for Bernstein/VPO.

> Munch is not even in the running!
>

> Celibidache is the only conductor
> that makes the music unfold and
> develop naturally as it it were
> improvised right then and there.
>

> All the others are nothing more
> than mere semi-conductors! ;-)
>
> dk
>

I personally own 5 different Celi versions: Berlin PO (1945), Milan
Radio SO (1959), Munich PO (1985 on EMI), Munich PO (1986 on Altus), and
Stuttgart Radio SO (1974). IIRC it's the EMI 4th that's so special. I
think these are all live recordings.

[Frank Berger]

On 7/25/2018 9:06 PM, Oscar wrote:
> Frank, I tore off all the spines of the tray cards of my L_v_n_ CDs so I don’t have to look at his name. I know where to find the music should I need to listen to it. For reference, of course, not for pleasure.
>

I've filed mine with my "Hatto" CDs which I still have even though I got
a full refund from B-C and was supposed to return them. He didn't offer
to pay for shipping so I kept them.

[Frank Berger]

I don't think I've ever seen 2 or 4 except in a complete box that seems
available on CD-R from Arkivmusic. The used copies on Amazon may be the
Arkiv CD-Rs. Often that is not advertised. I have no problem with
CD-Rs (I am certain they will outlive me), but sellers ought to reveal
that fact. I've never seen the "real" box set sold anywhere.

[Raymond Hall]

Courtesy of the author, I quote his remarks below. These refer to Haitink's Boston account of the Brahms 4th on Philips. I've often thought Haitink an ideal Brahms conductot. I have C. Kleiber, Walter stereo, Solti, and Bohm. All are ok but something intangible is missing from this great work. Maybe it was never there in the first place. Anyway, it might be Haitink that suits some ears.

Quote:-
There is a little more separation of timbre in the sound of Haitink's new Brahms Fourth and Haydn Variations than in his previous 1972-3 recordings (see below); perhaps marginally less ambient warmth in tuttis, though certainly more than in Kleiber's famously lean and exciting 1981 Vienna recording of the symphony. However, the 20 years that separate Haitink's accounts have brought some much more marked musical changes, not only in his overall view—he adds a minute to each of the symphony's first two movements—but in a more acute moment-by-moment control (comparable, at times to Carlos Kleiber's), pliant pacing and communicative phrasing. A pianissimo is now a pianissimo, which was not always the case in Amsterdam; the same can be said for the Brahmsian dolce; for example, the third subject of the symphony's first movement (at 2'52'') is now eased into (just a fractional slowing but it makes all the difference), and the solo oboe and horn that follow are not only sweeter but more sad.
This new first movement is not so much an older man's Brahms as an older Brahms, more poignantly reflective, more given to mysterious depths, less heroic and purposeful in overall cast though still able to bestir himself mightily, and when the coda arrives, to declaim with the terrifying rage of age. The second movement (smoother clarinet tone in Boston), now serene and very slow indeed—timings here are almost identical with Solti and Bernstein—has a timeless Brucknerian tread. It will not be to everyone's taste, and I well remember Trevor Harvey remarking that he tired of it at Solti's pace. Like the first movement, I found it profoundly affecting, but hard-headed reason tells me that, after Kleiber, 'tired' sounding might well be your reaction to the more active central 'development' (from bar 75 at 7'31'') at this tempo.
There is nothing remotely weary about the Scherzo: quite as fearsomely jocular as before, though with more interesting shadings. The momentous finale includes a startling effect Brahms obviously intended but which I have never heard so well timed and balanced, namely from bar 201 (7'58'') the rhythmic clash of duplets and triplets—the second note of the duplet (mainly trombones) is precisely placed between the second and third note of the triplet (most of the rest of the wind band).
If it is not already obvious, this is Brahms playing, conducting and recording of real stature, not as intensely dramatic in the symphony as the fanatically exacting Kleiber (who has no coupling), but worthy to stand alongside him.'

Gramophone September 1994, John Steane
End of quote.

Ray Hall, Taree

[HT]

> Anyone but me care for Chailly's cycle?

I love the Chailly Brahms 4 but can only compare it with Van Beinum/KCO and Jochum/Berliner.

Henk

[Kerrison]

Stokowski at the age of 92 conducted the work for the last time at the Royal Albert Hall with the New Philharmonia and not only received audience 'bravos' at the end of the first movement but also had critics reaching for their superlatives ... "the most exciting, galvanizing and convincing of all Stokowski's efforts" ...

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2007/Mar07/Stokowski_bbcl42052.htm

Thanks to You Tube, the excellent 'BBC Legends' release can be readily sampled by clicking this link ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0l_Go4pYc8A

[Frank Berger]

Not to take anything away from the performance, but ANY performance by a
92 year old deserves standing ovation.

[Herman]

On Thursday, July 26, 2018 at 6:54:37 AM UTC+2, Raymond Hall wrote:
> Courtesy of the author, I quote his remarks below. These refer to Haitink's Boston account of the Brahms 4th on Philips. I've often thought Haitink an ideal Brahms conductot. I have C. Kleiber, Walter stereo, Solti, and Bohm. All are ok but something intangible is missing from this great work. Maybe it was never there in the first place. Anyway, it might be Haitink that suits some ears.
>

Haitink's Boston Brahms cycle (including a terrific 2nd piano concerto with Emm Ax on Sony) is the Cinderella of Brahms recordings. The orchestra is in great shaoe and Haitink (at this point) brings out the light in this music.

Of course if you like heavy cholesterol Brahms the Boston Haitink sounds unusual, but there is no indication whatsoever that Brahms wanted his music to sound that way in works later than the 1st piano concerto.

[Herman]

On Thursday, July 26, 2018 at 9:11:05 AM UTC+2, Frank Berger wrote:

>
> Not to take anything away from the performance, but ANY performance by a
> 92 year old deserves standing ovation.

I disagree. I find it a little morbid that some people seem to think that you need a tremor-rid semi-corpse in front of an orchestra. Did this start with Klemps?

[Frank Berger]

You completely missed my point.

[Herman]

look at your writing.

[Frank Berger]

What, I left out an "a?" That doesn't change my meaning. Can't you
figure out what I meant?

[Andrew Clarke]

Little Jewish guy walks into a Catholic Church and goes into a confessional. Bless me father, he says, last night I went to a bar, picked up three college girls, took them to a motel and had them screaming for more all night long.
For your penance, says the priest, say five Our Fathers, five Hail Marys ...
Sorry, Father, he says, but I'm not a Catholic -
Then why are you telling me all this?
Listen, buster, I'm 92 years old and I'm telling everybody ...

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

[Gerard]

Op donderdag 26 juli 2018 07:49:01 UTC+2 schreef HT:

> > Anyone but me care for Chailly's cycle?
>
> I love the Chailly Brahms 4 but can only compare it with Van Beinum/KCO and Jochum/Berliner.
>
> Henk

There are 2 Chailly cycles.
Which one do you love?

[Gerard]

Op donderdag 26 juli 2018 01:07:41 UTC+2 schreef MIFrost:

> On Wednesday, July 25, 2018 at 7:00:13 PM UTC-4, Oscar wrote:
> > FWIW, Hurwitz is on the record as preferring L_v_n_’s VPO Brahms cycle from the 1980’s (DG) to the earlier RCA set.
>
> I wouldn't say that. Here's the pertinent passage:
>
> His RCA complete symphony cycle with the Chicago Symphony is one of the best ones, but is only available at present in Japan. This DG set never was released in its entirety in the USA, making its appearance “on demand” from Arkivmusic.com one of the most important and valuable of all of its major-label licensed productions. The performances are stunning, a bit weightier than the Chicago recordings, but still taut, rhythmically sharp, and exciting.

AFAIK the RCA cycle is availabe everywhere. Like:
https://www.amazon.com/Brahms-Symphonies-Concerto-German-Requiem/dp/B004H6P2LU/
https://www.dodax.nl/nl-nl/muziek-cds-dvds-vinylplaten/concerten-symfonien-orkestmuziek/johannes-brahms-james-levine-conducts-brahms-dpOOO1EF8PRCI/

[MIFrost]

On Thursday, July 26, 2018 at 8:08:25 AM UTC-4, Gerard wrote:
>
> There are 2 Chailly cycles.
> Which one do you love?

This one, for me ...
https://www.amazon.com/Brahms-Symphonies-CD-Riccardo-Chailly/dp/B00E6G23TA

MIFrost

[Bozo]

>On Wednesday, July 25, 2018 at 7:27:11 PM UTC-5, dk wrote:
> ROTFL! This is the orchestral
> equivalent of piano rolls! ;-)

Walter's " low-cal " approach here works for me :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_8KiPA7C38

From the YT poster :

" Despite criticisms of the Columbia Symphony Orchestra, an ensemble of 60 some musicians, for its overall proficiency and ensemble sound, Walter himself considered this his orchestra, the members of which he auditioned personally, to be as fine as any in his long career."

Also : http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Bio/Columbia-Symphony-Orchestra.htm :

" In 1957, while living in California, he was approached by Columbia's executives with a new proposal. Told of the advent of stereo recording and the threat that it constituted to the future sales of monaural records, Bruno Walter was asked to undertake a new series of recordings in stereo to preserve his interpretations in the most modern sound possible, and to allow them to reach new generations of listeners.

The result was a new Columbia Symphony Orchestra, chosen specifically by and for Bruno Walter. This group was an ensemble of 50 to 70 members, assembled from the best freelance musicians on the West Coast, many of whom typically never took on orchestral work, but made the exception to work with Bruno Walter. It was one of the best recording orchestras ever assembled in the USA, incorporating many of the best characteristics of the Wiener Philharmoniker and the Gewandhausorchester Leipzig - which Bruno Walter had conducted in Austria and Germany during the 1920's and 1930's - as well as the New York Philharmonic Orchestra. This orchestra recorded much of the core Classical and Romantic repertoire under Bruno Walter's baton, including the late W.A. Mozart symphonies, Gustav Mahler's symphonies Nos. 1 and 9, the four Johannes Brahms symphonies, Dvorak's Symphonies Nos. 8 and 9, Schubert's Ninth, the Wagner orchestral music, and the complete Beethoven symphonies."

[HT]

> There are 2 Chailly cycles.

I only know the Decca Gewandhaus version, the one available at MDT.

Henk

[Ricardo Jimenez]

Strange that nobody has put in a vote for Toscanini. Here is one.

[mswd...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, July 26, 2018 at 9:27:32 AM UTC-5, Ricardo Jimenez wrote:
> Strange that nobody has put in a vote for Toscanini. Here is one.

I could say the exact same about Furtwangler. Nobody turns up the heat in the fourth movement as much. Maybe Jochum in his own BPO cycle.

For myself, I think there are plenty of fine 4s and no reason to be picky. Was just listening to a Blomstedt LGO live recording on Decca the other day and enjoying it.

[O]

In article <57a80408-8fc8-4ba3...@googlegroups.com>,

Since I may soon be a tremor-rid semi-corpse, I hope that I can still
make semi-valuable contributions to society at that time.

-Owen

[O]

In article <9fed04b2-958a-44dd...@googlegroups.com>, dk

<dan....@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wednesday, July 25, 2018 at 9:58:18 PM UTC+2, stanpu...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Reiner/RPO Chesky
> > Bernstein/NYPO
> > Munch/BSO
>
> Reiner sounds too slick and driven.
> Bernstein/NYPO is no match for Bernstein/VPO.
> Munch is not even in the running!
>
> Celibidache is the only conductor
> that makes the music unfold and
> develop naturally as it it were
> improvised right then and there.
>
> All the others are nothing more
> than mere semi-conductors! ;-)

I disagree with your remarks! Does that make me a resistor?

-Ohms, er, -Owen

[Bozo]

WQXR picks 2 sets of the complete Brahms symphonies as among the best July releases :

https://www.wqxr.org/story/best-new-classical-releases-july-2018

[MiNe109]

On 7/25/18 5:06 PM, MIFrost wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 25, 2018 at 2:37:37 PM UTC-4, Bob Harper wrote:
>> I know there was a thread about this not too long ago, but I'm unable to
>> find it. Recommendations, either alone or in a set.
>>
>> TIA.
>>
>> Bob Harper
>
> Levine/Chicago
> https://www.amazon.com/Brahms-Symphonies-Concerto-German-Requiem/dp/B004H6P2LU/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_15_img_0?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=ZFG3NGXX4DZDWQZBFZDR
>
> Outstanding set of the whole Brahms cycle.

There's a Dutton Vocalion reissue of the 4th with Mahler 1 on hybrid
sacd that includes the quadrophonic mix. I haven't heard it.

Stephen

[drh8h]

On Thursday, July 26, 2018 at 10:27:32 AM UTC-4, Ricardo Jimenez wrote:
> Strange that nobody has put in a vote for Toscanini. Here is one.

It was the high point of his recorded cycle. Only the heavy-handed third movement detracts a little. The BBC and NYP performances and some of the NBC (particularly 1948) were superior in some respects. I have never heard of any issue of the 1939 broadcast, which is reported to have the fastest first movement of them all.

[Oscar]

I second hernan’s recommendation of Haitink’s mid-to-late ‘90s recording of Brahms 4 w/ Boston SO on Philips. The whole cycle is remarkable and beautifully played, but the Fourth is simply outstanding.

[Frank Berger]

On 7/26/2018 3:14 PM, Oscar wrote:
> I second hernan’s recommendation of Haitink’s mid-to-late ‘90s

1992 to be precise

[AB]

On Wednesday, July 25, 2018 at 8:26:06 PM UTC-4, dk wrote:
> On Thursday, July 26, 2018 at 2:17:40 AM UTC+2, AB wrote:

> > On Wednesday, July 25, 2018 at 7:05:25 PM UTC-4, dk wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, July 25, 2018 at 9:58:18 PM UTC+2, stanpu...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > Reiner/RPO Chesky
> > > > Bernstein/NYPO
> > > > Munch/BSO
> > >
> > > Reiner sounds too slick and driven.
> > > Bernstein/NYPO is no match for Bernstein/VPO.
> > > Munch is not even in the running!
> > >
> > > Celibidache is the only conductor
> > > that makes the music unfold and
> > > develop naturally as it it were
> > > improvised right then and there.
> > >
> > > All the others are nothing more
> > > than mere semi-conductors! ;-)
> >

> > I am 'shocked' at your comments.
>
> Then take anti-shock medicine quickly!
>
> dk

thanks, the medicine woiked!

AB

[AB]

On Wednesday, July 25, 2018 at 8:27:11 PM UTC-4, dk wrote:
> On Thursday, July 26, 2018 at 2:10:22 AM UTC+2, Bozo wrote:

> > >On Wednesday, July 25, 2018 at 6:05:25 PM UTC-5, dk wrote:
> > > All the others are nothing more
> > > than mere semi-conductors! ;-)
> >

> > Bruno Walter, Columbia Symphony.

>
> ROTFL! This is the orchestral
> equivalent of piano rolls! ;-)
>

> dk

you are right, but i am not laughing!

AB

[AB]

Horozowski (sp?)played piano recitals into his late 90s!

AB

[Frank Berger]

I'm getting up. Now I'm applauding.

(Horszowski)

[Gerard]

Op donderdag 26 juli 2018 16:18:20 UTC+2 schreef HT:

> > There are 2 Chailly cycles.
>
> I only know the Decca Gewandhaus version, the one available at MDT.
>
> Henk

There's also his older Concertgebouw Orchestra cycle, on Decca too:
https://www.amazon.com/Symphonies-CD-Box-Set/dp/B000I8OFI2/

[Oscar]

I bet it sounds even better on yr loudspeakers, Gerard.

[Gerard]

Op donderdag 26 juli 2018 23:39:32 UTC+2 schreef Oscar:

> I bet it sounds even better on yr loudspeakers, Gerard.

That's quite possible (specially since I have connected them to a wonderful amplifier) ;-)
But I should have another listening, and comparing both cycles by Chailly a little. Although it is rather time consuming.

BYW did someone mention Giulini already? His EMI Chicago recording?

[MIFrost]

On Thursday, July 26, 2018 at 3:15:02 PM UTC-4, Oscar wrote:
> I second hernan’s recommendation of Haitink’s mid-to-late ‘90s recording of Brahms 4 w/ Boston SO on Philips. The whole cycle is remarkable and beautifully played, but the Fourth is simply outstanding.

I have nothing but praise for Haitink's set with the Concertgebouw.

MIFrost

[gggg...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, July 25, 2018 at 8:37:37 AM UTC-10, Bob Harper wrote:
> I know there was a thread about this not too long ago, but I'm unable to
> find it. Recommendations, either alone or in a set.
>
> TIA.
>
> Bob Harper

The following review articles may be of interest:

https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=vYlaW8GwD4XW_wSGzYuICQ&q=%22best+brahms+4th&oq=%22best+brahms+4th&gs_l=psy-ab.3...10794.17950.0.18286.17.16.0.0.0.0.227.2400.0j14j1.15.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..2.13.2155.0..0j35i39k1j0i67k1j0i131k1j0i20i264k1j0i131i20i264k1j0i20i263i264k1j0i22i30k1.0.3M9HxFPsn4w

[Bob Harper]

Seconded. seriously underrated.

Bob Harper

[HT]

> Then listen to these:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kV-R4FvEEb0

I did enjoy Reizer. Thanks!

Henk

[Kerrison]

> > Not to take anything away from the performance, but ANY performance by a
> > 92 year old deserves standing ovation.
>

> I disagree. I find it a little morbid that some people seem to think that you need a tremor-rid semi-corpse in front of an orchestra. Did this start with Klemps?

I think you should listen forthwith to the very last complete unedited take of the Bizet Symphony in C's finale, conducted by Stokowski at the age of 95. It was the last time he ever conducted anything and if anyone thinks this is the work of a "tremor-rid semi-corpse" then their opinions on anything musical are clearly not worth considering! ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ypu1t3TUZVw

[Sol L. Siegel]

Ricardo Jimenez <rick...@earthlink.net> wrote in
news:efmjldp6mv541ks8h...@4ax.com:

> Strange that nobody has put in a vote for Toscanini. Here is one.

Actually, someone put in a vote for Toscanini/Philharmonia. My
favorite Toscanini is the one with BBCSO from 1935.

The versions I listen to the most all seem to date from about
the same period in the '70's: Giulini/Chicago, Kertesz and
DFD/Czech PO. The great trick in the symphony is to impose
discipline without putting it in a straitjacket, and these
three, in different ways, manage the feat without making the
effort audible. By now I should no longer be surprised how
well Kertesz and DFD have stood up to repeat listening.

- Sol L. Siegel, Philadelphia, PA USA

[Sol L. Siegel]

MiNe109 <pianof...@yahoo.com> wrote in news:pjd498$8bj$1
@gioia.aioe.org:

> There's a Dutton Vocalion reissue of the 4th with Mahler 1 on hybrid
> sacd that includes the quadrophonic mix. I haven't heard it.
>

I think you have it mixed up. It's the quad recordings of Mahler
1 & 4, plus a remix of Brahms 1 from the tapes used for the
stereo release.

https://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/classical/products/8389351--levine-
conducts-mahler-symphonies-nos-1-4-brahms-symphony-no-1

[yipeng...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, 26 July 2018 02:37:37 UTC+8, Bob Harper wrote:
> I know there was a thread about this not too long ago, but I'm unable to
> find it. Recommendations, either alone or in a set.
>
> TIA.
>
> Bob Harper

I am fond of Kleiber and the VPO among the older performances and Mackerras/s Telarc version with the Scottish Chamber Orchestra.

[MIFrost]

Agree with both, particularly Mackerras.

MIFrost

[Oscar]

On Saturday, July 28, 2018 at 12:03:38 PM, MIFrost wrote:
>
> Agree with both, particularly Mackerras.

I need to listen to that one again. Venzago with the Tapiolas is my current fave for that size ensemble. Avoid Zinman on Sony for traditional interpretation.

[markm...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, July 25, 2018 at 1:37:37 PM UTC-5, Bob Harper wrote:
> I know there was a thread about this not too long ago, but I'm unable to
> find it. Recommendations, either alone or in a set.
>
> TIA.
>
> Bob Harper

I have responded to similar queries over the past 25 years on this NG reminding people how fine Leinsdorf's Brahms symphonies are with the Boston Symphony from the 1960s. All are beautifully played by a large orchestra (my personal preference over slimmed-down ensembles in this repertoire). Leinsdorf's readings are slightly on the cool side, but things heat up in the Fourth. I've been told here that this set is available in Japan but, as far as I know, only the Second has made it to CD in the U.S. If you find these at a reasonable price, go for them.

[Alex Brown]

On 2018-07-25 19:37, Bob Harper wrote:
> I know there was a thread about this not too long ago, but I'm unable to
> find it. Recommendations, either alone or in a set.
>
> TIA.
>
> Bob Harper

There are just so many good ones. A couple of faves ATM:

Haitink/Concertgebouw (Philips/Decca 1972) - no messing, which benefits
this symphony. Beautiful without being glitzy and everything just right
... maybe to a fault?

C. Kleiber/Vienna (DGG 1980) - often has that special CK lean sonority
and tension - possibly hangs fire in the finale a little?

--
- Alex Brown

[mrs...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, July 25, 2018 at 8:37:37 PM UTC+2, Bob Harper wrote:
> I know there was a thread about this not too long ago, but I'm unable to
> find it. Recommendations, either alone or in a set.
>
> TIA.
>
> Bob Harper

Of newer recordings Ivan Fischer with Budapest Festival Orchestra is my favorite, very Hungarian.

Also maybe not clear cut recommendation but I found a lot of interesting touches and details in Berglund's Chamber Orchestra of Europe recording on Ondine.

Of older recordings there are many good ones. I like Carlos Kleiber VPO lean and mean classic, Furtwangler's VPO recording from Salzburg 1950, thou it is bit dim sounding in all transfers I heard. Markevitch with Lamoureux on DG is also excellent, love the sound of the orchestra. Also on DG (recently boxed) De Sabata with BPO in 1938 with daringly slow andante.

[mswd...@gmail.com]

On Monday, July 30, 2018 at 7:32:28 AM UTC-5, mrs...@gmail.com wrote:
> Markevitch with Lamoureux on DG is also excellent,

Excellent pick. Markevitch recorded more than a few gems at the time.

[Russ (not Martha)]

Agree wholeheartedly regarding the Leinsdorf/BSO Brahms cycle, although I do prefer Steinberg/Pittsburgh in Sym #2 with its electrifying finale. At one time I was able to borrow an open-reel of the Leinsdorf Brahms symphony cycle and remastered the 3rd & 4th symphonies to CD for myself. Alas, was not able to do the 1st symphony which had an uncorrectable defect in the 1st movt.

Other than the Tower Records Japan TWCL reissues of Leinsdorf's Brahms symphony cycle, I think there was a set on Retrospective which included also the German Requiem and the Tragic Overture (the latter kinda stodgy if memory serves).

Russ (not Martha)

[Lawrence Kart]

On Monday, July 30, 2018 at 11:21:11 AM UTC-5, Russ (not Martha) wrote:
> On Saturday, July 28, 2018 at 10:10:34 PM UTC-5, markm...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Wednesday, July 25, 2018 at 1:37:37 PM UTC-5, Bob Harper wrote:
> > > I know there was a thread about this not too long ago, but I'm unable to
> > > find it. Recommendations, either alone or in a set.
> > >
> > > TIA.
> > >
> > > Bob Harper
> >

Wand/NDR

https://www.amazon.com/Brahms-Symphony-No-minor-Op/dp/B00111T37I/ref=sr_1_5?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1532972761&sr=1-5&keywords=brahms+wand+4

Larry Kart

[MiNe109]

My mistake! Is the session in which the Mahler was completed so quickly
recording time was available for an unplanned Brahms?

Stephen

[MiNe109]

That's "is this..."

[jrsnfld]

The Brahms 1 was recorded with leftover time from the Mahler 3 sessions in July 1975. The rest of the cycle was then recorded a year later.

--Jeff

[Herman]

Since these topics tend to enumerate all the usual suspects I cannot help but notice how times have changed in that it took a long time for Kleiber VPO to emerge, and that Rudolf Kempe used to be mentioned consistently in the past, and not in 2018.

Other fallen-by-the-wayside: Kubelik / BRSO.

[Bob Harper]

On 7/31/18 12:05 AM, Herman wrote:
> Since these topics tend to enumerate all the usual suspects I cannot help but notice how times have changed in that it took a long time for Kleiber VPO to emerge, and that Rudolf Kempe used to be mentioned consistently in the past, and not in 2018.
>
> Other fallen-by-the-wayside: Kubelik / BRSO.
>

I have long wanted to hear the Kubelik/BRSO, which I cannot imagine to
be other than excellent, but to be honest I've been put off by the price.

Bob Harper

[Frank Berger]

I was surprised at how expensive the Orfeo set has become (I have it,
but I'm sure I paid nothing like that) and that there is a Kubelik
Brahms set on Eloquence, with the Vienna PO, from the late 50s. The one
reviewer said the performances are similar, with the Orfeo set being
somewhat more hands-on, and the VPO set with less of a Kubelik stamp on
it. And that the Orfeo set has better sound.

[Herman]

Orfeo doesn't seem to have a very ambitious distribution. Maybe the print runs aren't that big either. So whenever I spotted an Orfeo disc in the remainder bins I'd snap it up. Many wound up being real favorites. Recently I rediscovered the Ancerl disc with Suk playing the Dvorak violin concerto, a magnificent performance and it doesn't matter it's mono. It betas many stereo versions.

[Frank Berger]

On 7/31/2018 3:14 PM, Herman wrote:
> Orfeo doesn't seem to have a very ambitious distribution. Maybe the print runs aren't that big either. So whenever I spotted an Orfeo disc in the remainder bins I'd snap it up. Many wound up being real favorites. Recently I rediscovered the Ancerl disc with Suk playing the Dvorak violin concerto, a magnificent performance and it doesn't matter it's mono. It betas many stereo versions.
>

During the more intense period of my collecting I also learned to snap
up from the used bin Orfeo (and others like Ermitage, Arkadia, Artists,
LYS/Dante, Exclusive, Greenhill, Intaglio, Memories, Multisonic,
Originals). Not all gems, of course, but the used market was so active
in those days you could easily re-sell anything you didn't want to keep.

[Oscar]

On Tuesday, July 31, 2018 at 12:05:26 AM, herman wrote:
>
> ...Rudolf Kempe used to be mentioned consistently in the past, and not in 2018.

Kempe/RPO on Testament? Ah, no.

[jrsnfld]

Never saw that one before. (Also didn't realize until looking now that there is an RAI Milan Brahms 4 with Kempe.)

But the BP/Kempe cycle on Testament is excellent; also very satisfying is the stereo Munich cycle. However, I don't remember if the 4th in particular stood out in those cycles.

--Jeff

[jrsnfld]

On Wednesday, July 25, 2018 at 11:37:37 AM UTC-7, Bob Harper wrote:
> I know there was a thread about this not too long ago, but I'm unable to
> find it. Recommendations, either alone or in a set.
>
> TIA.
>
> Bob Harper

There are so many great Brahms cycles with excellent 4ths in good sound.

Recently my go-to cycle has been the superb Asahina/Osaka cycle on Pony Canyon--so many wonderful details rendered just right, so much logical force behind every decision, so satisfying, fine sound. A great 4th with a sense of inevitability.

One of my favorite 4ths is Mravinsky/Leningrad from 1973. Wonderful flow in his phrasing, as always, richly appointed orchestra. Maybe not perfect for every taste, and certainly the sound obscures some of the detail. Unless you're a Mravinsky fan, it might not separate itself from other elite performances. But stick around to the fourth movement and oh my , what a tour de force of imposing, intimidating orchestral utterance! Oozing from every pore its exquisite, precisely crafted expression. Well worth hearing--probably easy to find on YT for a test drive.

And: Dated but clear sonics are nicely balanced in the Markevitch/Lamoureux on DG, and Markevitch is equally clear eyed and clear headed, as always. He was born to conduct this music. Right from the opening, it moves smartly, confidently, beautifully. Very far from the (equally wonderful) wallows of the later Bernstein recording, closer to Kleiber but here we never lose warmth and refined color.

The Lamoreaux orchestra has gorgeous wind playing, especially the flute in the last movement, by the way--essentially to any successful Brahms.

-Jeff

[jrsnfld]

On Thursday, July 26, 2018 at 6:30:19 AM UTC-7, Bozo wrote:
> >On Wednesday, July 25, 2018 at 7:27:11 PM UTC-5, dk wrote:
> > ROTFL! This is the orchestral
> > equivalent of piano rolls! ;-)
>
> Walter's " low-cal " approach here works for me :
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_8KiPA7C38

Try also Walter with the BBC SO, from the '30s. I wouldn't call the approach low-cal--some interesting rubato, but not too heavy handed. Even the early, "exciting" Walter is insistently genial, even when he's exciting. The BBC SO plays fantastically at some points, driven by quick temp, but always Walter seems to smile with the music, and the symphony sings for him.

--Jeff

[Andrew Clarke]

On Tuesday, July 31, 2018 at 5:05:26 PM UTC+10, Herman wrote:
> Since these topics tend to enumerate all the usual suspects I cannot help but notice how times have changed in that it took a long time for Kleiber VPO to emerge, and that Rudolf Kempe used to be mentioned consistently in the past, and not in 2018.
>
> Other fallen-by-the-wayside: Kubelik / BRSO.

In about 60 years time we might have discovered Sir John Eliot Gardner with l'Orchestre Romantique et Revolutionnaire. Big Dave Hurwitz thinks it's terrible, and I can imagine no higher recommendation for a HIP performance.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

[Frank Berger]

On 8/1/2018 5:03 AM, jrsnfld wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 25, 2018 at 11:37:37 AM UTC-7, Bob Harper wrote:
>> I know there was a thread about this not too long ago, but I'm unable to
>> find it. Recommendations, either alone or in a set.
>>
>> TIA.
>>
>> Bob Harper
>
> There are so many great Brahms cycles with excellent 4ths in good sound.
>
> Recently my go-to cycle has been the superb Asahina/Osaka cycle on Pony Canyon--so many wonderful details rendered just right, so much logical force behind every decision, so satisfying, fine sound. A great 4th with a sense of inevitability.
>

No sign of this, but I see an Asahina Brahms with the New Japan
Philharmonic. Are you familiar with that? Amazing how little Asahina
is in print, even in Japan.

[jrsnfld]

On Wednesday, August 1, 2018 at 7:52:04 AM UTC-7, Frank Berger wrote:
> On 8/1/2018 5:03 AM, jrsnfld wrote:

> > Recently my go-to cycle has been the superb Asahina/Osaka cycle on Pony Canyon--so many wonderful details rendered just right, so much logical force behind every decision, so satisfying, fine sound. A great 4th with a sense of inevitability.
> >
>
> No sign of this, but I see an Asahina Brahms with the New Japan
> Philharmonic. Are you familiar with that? Amazing how little Asahina
> is in print, even in Japan.

I don't know that New Japan Philharmonic cycle, on Fontec. I'll take a listen to the Brahms with that orchestra on YouTube. The thumbnail picture suggests it's from the same cycle.

The Bruckner I have with that orchestra and Asahina is well played. None of these orchestras have the instantly seductive strengths of a Berlin Phil or a Philadelphia Orchestra, but they are much better than just "acceptable"--because of great attention to phrasing and balances, etc.

A way-back rmcr post from Henry Fogel (of course) mentioned three Asahina cycles in his collection:

BRAHMS Symphonies 1-4 (1979-80; Osaka Phil) Japanese Victor
VICC 40162-65
BRAHMS Symphonies 1-4; Haydn Variations (1989-90; New Japan Phil)
Fontec FOCD 9035-38
BRAHMS Symphonies 1-4 (1994-95; Osaka Phil) Canyon Classics
PCCL 00306

Obviously I haven't heard the first two. But I also see on Amazon another Brahms recording with the Tokyo Metropolitan SO, so maybe there is a fourth cycle on CD. And here someone mentioned a DVD cycle with the OsakaPO:

https://www.gramophone.co.uk/forum/recordings/takashi-asahina-and-bruckner

Here's a picture of the Pony/Canyon cycle from Osaka that I have on CD. Apparently someone uploaded a copy:

http://bayreuthclassical.blogspot.com/2013/01/brahms-complete-symphonies-takashi.html

--Jeff

[drh8h]

On Saturday, July 28, 2018 at 3:40:25 AM UTC-4, Sol L. Siegel wrote:
> Ricardo Jimenez <rick...@earthlink.net> wrote in
> news:efmjldp6mv541ks8h...@4ax.com:
>
> > Strange that nobody has put in a vote for Toscanini. Here is one.
>
> Actually, someone put in a vote for Toscanini/Philharmonia. My
> favorite Toscanini is the one with BBCSO from 1935.
>
> The versions I listen to the most all seem to date from about
> the same period in the '70's: Giulini/Chicago, Kertesz and
> DFD/Czech PO. The great trick in the symphony is to impose
> discipline without putting it in a straitjacket, and these
> three, in different ways, manage the feat without making the
> effort audible. By now I should no longer be surprised how
> well Kertesz and DFD have stood up to repeat listening.

>
> - Sol L. Siegel, Philadelphia, PA USA

Thanks to someone's good graces, I have been able to hear Toscanini's 1939 NBC account. Sound garbled in parts of the first two movements but it does not matter. Control, tension and flexibility all in one. None of the later performances I have heard have it to the same degree.

DH

[mswd...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, August 1, 2018 at 9:52:04 AM UTC-5, Frank Berger wrote:
> No sign of this, but I see an Asahina Brahms with the New Japan
> Philharmonic. Are you familiar with that? Amazing how little Asahina
> is in print, even in Japan.

I owned that at one point. Very "hall" sound. Mushy, if I recall. I got rid of it quickly.

[Frank Berger]

Oy. Just ordered it.

[jrsnfld]

On Thursday, August 2, 2018 at 6:19:06 AM UTC-7, Frank Berger wrote:

I wouldn't lament just yet.

If this is the same as the New Japan Philharmonic Brahms 4 uploaded to YT (from 19 March 2001), then you're getting Asahina at about 4 minutes quicker than he was in the recording I have--the Osaka set on Pony Canyon (28 May 1995). The interpretation benefits--I listened to it yesterday and would prefer it on that basis to my Osaka CD.

At the slower paces, the Osaka performance is too dignified and cautious for a lot of tastes and temperaments, and the differences in orchestra aren't major. I sensed the Osaka strings may be slightly better in a few passages, but the New Japan winds were more to my taste. As for sound, YT isn't the best way to judge, but on a decent sound system it was not bad at all. Not mushy by my standards .

All in all, if I come across the New Japan set at an attractive price, I might buy it even though I already have another Asahina set. On the other hand, of course, there's only so far one can go with Asahina's Brahms. It reminds me a bit the Kubelik set on Orfeo actually--beautifully done, serious, revealing, intelligent, central, polished--but not trying to grab anyone by the collar the way a Mravinsky, Furtwangler, Toscanini, or even a young Levine could do.

--Jeff

[mswd...@gmail.com]

Frank and Jeff- I've sent you both individual emails with a link to download the JVC cycle. Let me know if you don't get it.

[Frank Berger]

On 8/2/2018 10:07 PM, mswd...@gmail.com wrote:
> Frank and Jeff- I've sent you both individual emails with a link to download the JVC cycle. Let me know if you don't get it.
>

Thank you.

[jrsnfld]

On Thursday, August 2, 2018 at 7:07:58 PM UTC-7, mswd...@gmail.com wrote:
> Frank and Jeff- I've sent you both individual emails with a link to download the JVC cycle. Let me know if you don't get it.

Very generous...and thanks!

I am particularly taken by how masterfully Asahina tightens the screws of tension as Passacaglia progresses, by the weight of timpani and the color and attack of the orchestra. Basically just doing what the music gives him and no more.

--Jeff

[gggg...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, July 25, 2018 at 9:58:18 AM UTC-10, stanpu...@gmail.com wrote:
> Reiner/RPO Chesky
> Bernstein/NYPO
> Munch/BSO
>
> There are three. DFD/Czech Philharmonic is an interesting alternative or if going historical Furtwangler...

According to this:

- The finale, in particular, is terrifying in its extremes and persistent drive, an experience on record never equaled before or since, and an enduring testament to an utterly unique work of genius by both composer and artist.

http://www.classicalnotes.net/classics2/brahmsfourth.html

[Bob Harper]

On 11/10/18 7:28 PM, dk wrote:

> Which Furty recording?
> There are at least 4
> different ones!
>
> dk
>
Speaking of the Brahms 4th, Jun Märkl performed it with the Oregon
symphony about a month ago. A great performance, Furtwänglerian in
intensity. Quite a treat for the audience. It's possible that he's a
candidate to replace Carlos Kalmar, whose tenure is ending at the end of
next season. Based on the Brahms, I'd say bring him on!

Bob Harper

[Oscar]

On Sunday, November 11, 2018 at 4:27:57 PM UTC-8, Bob Harper wrote:
>
> Speaking of the Brahms 4th, Jun Märkl performed it with the Oregon

> symphony about a month ago. A great performance...

I have some Märkl CDs on Naxos in my collection. Will locate these and revisit. Thx.

[Frank Berger]

He has recorded Brahms 1, 3 and 4 with MDR Leipzig Radio SO. MDR being
Mitteldeutchser Rundfunk. No review that I could find.