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Tchaikovsky 6th: two Italian queries
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Christopher Webber
Jul 28, 2014, 10:21:46 AM7/28/14
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Two thoughts evoked by listening to Golovanov's extraordinary
performance, and reading the Italian directions in the score.
Movement 2 ('trio' subject) is marked "con dolcezza e flebile".
"Flebile" is translated as "feeble" (which is how Golovanov audaciously
interprets it.) But has anyone suggested this might be the composer's
misunderstanding of "flessibile" (which is how it is more usually played).
Movement 4 - second subject (the big tune). Marked "con lenezza y
devozione". "Lenezza" doesn't seem to exist in Italian (rather like
Elgar's "nobilmente"). It is usually interpreted as "gentleness", but if
it were a misprint of "lentezza" (slowness) that would surely make far
more sense? Again, I can't find any discussion of this online, which
doesn't mean that the discussion hasn't been had sometime, somewhere.
Any thoughts on these two textual oddities in Tchaikovsky's score? I
should say that these words are used in every PD edition I've been able
to look at, as well as my own Boosey's pocket edition.
performance, and reading the Italian directions in the score.
Movement 2 ('trio' subject) is marked "con dolcezza e flebile".
"Flebile" is translated as "feeble" (which is how Golovanov audaciously
interprets it.) But has anyone suggested this might be the composer's
misunderstanding of "flessibile" (which is how it is more usually played).
Movement 4 - second subject (the big tune). Marked "con lenezza y
devozione". "Lenezza" doesn't seem to exist in Italian (rather like
Elgar's "nobilmente"). It is usually interpreted as "gentleness", but if
it were a misprint of "lentezza" (slowness) that would surely make far
more sense? Again, I can't find any discussion of this online, which
doesn't mean that the discussion hasn't been had sometime, somewhere.
Any thoughts on these two textual oddities in Tchaikovsky's score? I
should say that these words are used in every PD edition I've been able
to look at, as well as my own Boosey's pocket edition.
MiNe109
Jul 28, 2014, 11:08:06 AM7/28/14
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Stephen
Christopher Webber
Jul 28, 2014, 11:20:13 AM7/28/14
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On 28/07/2014 16:08, MiNe109 wrote:
> He uses 'flebile' in the Trio as well.
Why, so he does - for Var.IX, "andante flebile ma non tanto" - well spotted!
> He uses 'flebile' in the Trio as well.
Yet here, the meaning "feeble" seems even more baffling, if it really is
PT's intention. "Flessible" again seems to fit the character of the
music more obviously. The bravura piano line is anything but "feeble" in
mood, and the richly expressive string lines are individually marked
"lamentoso".
Christopher Webber
Jul 28, 2014, 11:30:32 AM7/28/14
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6th symphony) has "flebile" translated as "plaintive", which I suppose
makes sense in that context, and doesn't stretch Italian dictionary
definitions too far - but that still wouldn't make very much sense in
your example of the usage in Var.IX of the Trio. A "plaintive andante"?
I wonder....
MiNe109
Jul 28, 2014, 1:30:11 PM7/28/14
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with lamentoso.
I guess Tchaikovsky doesn't want it too feeble.
Stephen
Christopher Webber
Jul 28, 2014, 2:02:58 PM7/28/14
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On 28/07/2014 18:30, MiNe109 wrote:
> I guess Tchaikovsky doesn't want it too feeble.
I expect that's right, Stephen. And "mournful" sounds convincing enough
> I guess Tchaikovsky doesn't want it too feeble.
for me, in both contexts!
On the other word ("lenezza") I see that Gunther Schuller, in 'The
Compleat Conductor' pre-empts my theory that this is simply a mistake:
"The annotation 'con lenezza e devozione' is partly in error.
There is no such word in Italian as 'lenezza'; it was
probably meant to be 'lentezza' (slowness)." (p.533).
So there we are.
I see that Schuller also picks up on the remarkable voice-crossings in
the violins at the very opening of the Finale of the 6th Symphony, which
were "at the time very innovative". The effect, by which the second
violins play one note of the melody, the firsts the next and so forth
for the whole phrase will of course only register where the 1st and 2nd
violins are correctly placed to extreme right and left of the platform,
giving a remarkable stereoscopic blur to the yearning, legato theme.
I've only seen one performance personally (by Handley) where this was
done, and the effect was electric. Although of course Boult used to do
it too as a matter of principle, following his own teacher Nikisch. I'm
glad to see, though, that this 'authentic' seating of the violins is
once again coming back into regular fashion.
Herman
Jul 28, 2014, 2:15:30 PM7/28/14
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On Monday, July 28, 2014 4:21:46 PM UTC+2, Christopher Webber wrote:
> Movement 2 ('trio' subject) is marked "con dolcezza e flebile".
>
> "Flebile" is translated as "feeble" (which is how Golovanov audaciously
>
> interprets it.) But has anyone suggested this might be the composer's
>
> misunderstanding of "flessibile" (which is how it is more usually played).
>
No, it's your misunderstanding of "flebile" which is from the Latin "flebilis" which means tearful.
> Movement 2 ('trio' subject) is marked "con dolcezza e flebile".
>
> "Flebile" is translated as "feeble" (which is how Golovanov audaciously
>
> interprets it.) But has anyone suggested this might be the composer's
>
> misunderstanding of "flessibile" (which is how it is more usually played).
>
Roland van Gaalen
Jul 28, 2014, 2:59:29 PM7/28/14
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The word is also related to 'flower', 'bloom', 'blow', 'flourish', 'bleat' & 'blare' as well as 'blood' & 'feeble' (yes!), not to mention 'bowl', 'ball', 'blister', 'bladder' & 'phallus'!
The Indo-European root appears to be '*bhel'=to swell.
And 'feeble'=so weak or inadequate as to cause tears to well up, as it were:
Latin 'flebilis'=causing/worthy of/accompanied by tears, lamentable, wretched, doleful,tearful, weeping.
The poetry of etymology: 'fascinating' isn't it?
Roland van Gaalen
Cape Town
Christopher Webber
Jul 28, 2014, 3:49:32 PM7/28/14
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On 28/07/2014 19:59, Roland van Gaalen wrote:
> The word is also related to 'flower', 'bloom', 'blow', 'flourish', 'bleat' & 'blare' as well as 'blood' & 'feeble' (yes!), not to mention 'bowl', 'ball', 'blister', 'bladder' & 'phallus'!
>
> The Indo-European root appears to be '*bhel'=to swell.
>
> And 'feeble'=so weak or inadequate as to cause tears to well up, as it were:
> Latin 'flebilis'=causing/worthy of/accompanied by tears, lamentable, wretched, doleful,tearful, weeping.
>
> The poetry of etymology: 'fascinating' isn't it?
It certainly is, Roland. And it's pleasant to have understanding
> The word is also related to 'flower', 'bloom', 'blow', 'flourish', 'bleat' & 'blare' as well as 'blood' & 'feeble' (yes!), not to mention 'bowl', 'ball', 'blister', 'bladder' & 'phallus'!
>
> The Indo-European root appears to be '*bhel'=to swell.
>
> And 'feeble'=so weak or inadequate as to cause tears to well up, as it were:
> Latin 'flebilis'=causing/worthy of/accompanied by tears, lamentable, wretched, doleful,tearful, weeping.
>
> The poetry of etymology: 'fascinating' isn't it?
enhanced by polite such respondents as yourself! The Latin "Flebilis"
certainly means a lot more than merely "tearful" - thank you.
Herman
Jul 28, 2014, 4:21:42 PM7/28/14
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He meant tearful, weepy. soft.
Christopher Webber
Jul 28, 2014, 4:53:26 PM7/28/14
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On 28/07/2014 21:21, Herman wrote:
> Youre getting it wrong again. Quoting all kinds of etymological ramifications doesn't mean Tchaikovksy could have had this in mind.
>
You miss the point, Herman. This is a friendly exchange of knowledge,
> Youre getting it wrong again. Quoting all kinds of etymological ramifications doesn't mean Tchaikovksy could have had this in mind.
>
not a competition where one poster is "right" and everyone else "wrong".
> He meant tearful, weepy. soft.
will not do in English translation, and certainly don't fit the musical
passages to which he applies the word).
Or he might equally have meant "mournful" (as Stephen suggested earlier,
and which seems to me very much closer to the pall-bearer spirit of the
passage in the Piano Trio at least.) Or he might conceivably have meant
"feeble", a prime Italian meaning of the word, as earlier critics
suggested - but which I was unsure about.
As the Italian word does not bear all the Latin senses which the
composer may have been tapping into, none of us - not even you - can be
quite sure what he "meant". This is a subtle and interesting matter, for
which Herman's semantic sledgehammer is alas too coarse!
Willem Orange
Jul 28, 2014, 6:01:30 PM7/28/14
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chriskh...@gmail.com
Jul 29, 2014, 1:56:30 AM7/29/14
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Il giorno lunedì 28 luglio 2014 21:49:32 UTC+2, Christopher Webber ha scritto:
>
> It certainly is, Roland. And it's pleasant to have understanding
>
> enhanced by polite such respondents as yourself! The Latin "Flebilis"
>
> certainly means a lot more than merely "tearful" - thank you.
The Dizionario Garzanti - a commonly used household tome - gives for flebile "di tono lacrimoso" but also adds "triste e sommesso" (sad and subdued). The interesting thing is that in modern Italian - not that it is a much-used word - flebile has assumed more and more the latter meaning and until I checked all this up - and I've been living in Italy for 39 years after all - I had understood a "voce flebile" to be something like a weak and wavery voice. However, another authority, the Dizionario Treccani, quotes usages by such authors as Leopardi and for them it certainly meant "tearful", so we may suppose that for the literary-minded Tchaikovsky it did so too.
>
> It certainly is, Roland. And it's pleasant to have understanding
>
> enhanced by polite such respondents as yourself! The Latin "Flebilis"
>
> certainly means a lot more than merely "tearful" - thank you.
"Lenezza" is an interesting question. Though very rare, some sources quote it as an alternative to "lenità", itself an exclusively literary word (the Dizionario Garzanti lists neither) meaning "meekness, sweetness, suavity". Interestingly, the Dizionario Hoepli adds another "rare, literary" meaning for "lenità" (and so by extension for "lenezza"): "breath, and in particular the speeding and slowing of breath after strong exertion".
Given that there's no logical reason to label a theme "con lentezza" when "lento" would do as well, and given, too, that Tchaikovsky used "lenezza" more than once, I think we may take it that he meant what he wrote. The latter definition would seem to fit the last movement of the "Pathétique" rather well and it would be nice to think that Tchaikovsky knew it and meant it. At this point, perhaps we need to know where and how Tchaikovsky learnt his Italian - mainly by struggling with Dante, I suspect.
Chris Howell
Christopher Webber
Jul 29, 2014, 4:19:24 AM7/29/14
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On 29/07/2014 06:56, chriskh...@gmail.com wrote:
> "Lenezza" is an interesting question. Though very rare, some sources quote it as an alternative to "lenit�", itself an exclusively literary word (the Dizionario Garzanti lists neither) meaning "meekness, sweetness, suavity". Interestingly, the Dizionario Hoepli adds another "rare, literary" meaning for "lenit�" (and so by extension for "lenezza"): "breath, and in particular the speeding and slowing of breath after strong exertion".
>
> Given that there's no logical reason to label a theme "con lentezza" when "lento" would do as well, and given, too, that Tchaikovsky used "lenezza" more than once, I think we may take it that he meant what he wrote. The latter definition would seem to fit the last movement of the "Path�tique" rather well and it would be nice to think that Tchaikovsky knew it and meant it. At this point, perhaps we need to know where and how Tchaikovsky learnt his Italian - mainly by struggling with Dante, I suspect.
Fascinating, Chris - thank you. Did Tchaikovsky use a "lenezza"
direction on more than this one occasion in the 6th Symphony, though?
Certainly Golovanov suggests a "speeding and slowing of breath" in the
way he phrases the famous theme.
On "flebile" (multiple uses) the case seems closed - it seems that he
did mean it, and that "mournful/tearful" is what he meant.
> "Lenezza" is an interesting question. Though very rare, some sources quote it as an alternative to "lenit�", itself an exclusively literary word (the Dizionario Garzanti lists neither) meaning "meekness, sweetness, suavity". Interestingly, the Dizionario Hoepli adds another "rare, literary" meaning for "lenit�" (and so by extension for "lenezza"): "breath, and in particular the speeding and slowing of breath after strong exertion".
>
> Given that there's no logical reason to label a theme "con lentezza" when "lento" would do as well, and given, too, that Tchaikovsky used "lenezza" more than once, I think we may take it that he meant what he wrote. The latter definition would seem to fit the last movement of the "Path�tique" rather well and it would be nice to think that Tchaikovsky knew it and meant it. At this point, perhaps we need to know where and how Tchaikovsky learnt his Italian - mainly by struggling with Dante, I suspect.
Fascinating, Chris - thank you. Did Tchaikovsky use a "lenezza"
direction on more than this one occasion in the 6th Symphony, though?
Certainly Golovanov suggests a "speeding and slowing of breath" in the
way he phrases the famous theme.
On "flebile" (multiple uses) the case seems closed - it seems that he
did mean it, and that "mournful/tearful" is what he meant.
chriskh...@gmail.com
Jul 29, 2014, 5:43:11 AM7/29/14
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Il giorno martedì 29 luglio 2014 10:19:24 UTC+2, Christopher Webber ha scritto:
Did Tchaikovsky use a "lenezza"
>
> direction on more than this one occasion in the 6th Symphony, though?
I thought he had, but I can't trace it so, unless someone knows better, we'll assume he didn't.
Did Tchaikovsky use a "lenezza"
>
> direction on more than this one occasion in the 6th Symphony, though?
All the same, I think on balance he meant "lenezza", but what about the MS? If "lenezza" is just a misprint for "lentezza", wouldn't the MS have it right?
Chris Howell
Christopher Webber
Jul 29, 2014, 7:13:59 AM7/29/14
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On 29/07/2014 10:43, chriskh...@gmail.com wrote:
> All the same, I think on balance he meant "lenezza", but what about the MS? If "lenezza" is just a misprint for "lentezza", wouldn't the MS have it right?
Good question. All I can say is, that the various imprints of the score
> All the same, I think on balance he meant "lenezza", but what about the MS? If "lenezza" is just a misprint for "lentezza", wouldn't the MS have it right?
I've seen accord with "lenezza". Although I take your point about PT's
literary leanings, there is no guarantee, as you also hint, that he got
it right himself (c.f. once again Elgar's "nobilmente"!)
All of which gets us no further, intriguing though it is. The jury
remains out on what Tchaikovsky did/did not/mean to write. It is worth
exploring, for sure: because if, as Schuller suspects, PT himself simply
made a mistake, that would significantly affect the meaning of his
instruction.
Certainly this "lenezza" does seem terribly obscure: although a composer
called Jack Norman Kimmell wrote a piece for four trumpets entitled "con
lenezza" he might well have found the phrase in PT's 6th! Here's the piece:
http://poiskm.com/song/27798776-James-Olcott-Con-Lenezza-by-Jack-Kimmell
Terry
Jul 29, 2014, 9:51:07 AM7/29/14
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As you say, "con lenezza" is usually translated "in a quiet and gentle way". I never gave it much thought -- in fact I never noticed it, tucked away under the "con espressione" in the other parts. There is a not-very-helpful mention of it here:
http://incidentlight.com/Music%20reviews/tchaikovsky110509.html
maestro...@yahoo.com
Jul 29, 2014, 12:35:39 PM7/29/14
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Although I take your point about PT's
>
> literary leanings, there is no guarantee, as you also hint, that he got
>
> it right himself (c.f. once again Elgar's "nobilmente"!)
In fact Elgar himself, in one of his letters (to Jaeger, I think) admitted that it wasn't real Italian, but he found it expressed exactly what he meant, so he decided to use it anyway!
>
> literary leanings, there is no guarantee, as you also hint, that he got
>
> it right himself (c.f. once again Elgar's "nobilmente"!)
Christopher Webber
Jul 29, 2014, 1:16:13 PM7/29/14
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On 29/07/2014 17:35, maestro...@yahoo.com wrote:
> In fact Elgar himself, in one of his letters (to Jaeger, I think) admitted that it wasn't real Italian, but he found it expressed exactly what he meant, so he decided to use it anyway!
Yes indeed. Going off-topic a little, my favourite Italian direction is
> In fact Elgar himself, in one of his letters (to Jaeger, I think) admitted that it wasn't real Italian, but he found it expressed exactly what he meant, so he decided to use it anyway!
Walton's, for the big tune in the 'Richard III' March. It is marked "con
prosciuto, agnello e confitura di fragole".
John Wiser
Jul 29, 2014, 1:59:33 PM7/29/14
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"Christopher Webber" <zarz...@zarzuela.invalid.net> wrote in message
news:c3q36u...@mid.individual.net...
Poetically, "ham, lamb and strawberry jam".
jdw
news:c3q36u...@mid.individual.net...
jdw
M forever
Jul 29, 2014, 11:30:23 PM7/29/14
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4ris...@gmail.com
Dec 25, 2019, 7:36:18 PM12/25/19
to
"Lenezza" might not exist in Italian today. However, I've heard a professional Italian music conductor explaining on TV last night that "lenezza" is an obsolete Italian word (non to be confused with "lentezza") which Tchaikovsky used for directing his score to be performed with the utmost gentleness and lightness like you would apply a soothing touch over a wound of a person dear to you. On the other hand the Italian language has "lenire" (to relieve, or soothe, or alleviate) as a verb and "lenitivo" (soothing) as an adjective. "Lenezza" or "lenità" as a noun seems to have the same root as "lenire" e "lenitivo".
Would this solve your doubts.
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