Vibrato - yes or no?
Andy Evans
surprised that two British CDs were preferred for Mozart's basson concerto.
What brought me up short was that all the recordings with vibrato on the basoon
were dismissed out of hand as "sentimental" and even "bleating", with a summing
up that they "used vibrato as a kind of general purpose form of expression
instead of using more interesting devices".
Well, tell a violin player that vibrato is just a general purpose form of
expression. But, further than this I wonder if in the search for that bleached
white vocal sound Brits seem to like, some sort of misguided 'purity' hasn't
spread to the whole of the orchestra. I for one hate that sine-wave British
clarinet tone, and I have to say that the moment I heard the worst offender -
bassoonist Milan Turkovic - my heart jumped for joy. At last a bassoon played
with real tone and feeling.
So is vibrato "non PC" these days? I can hardly believe it. What do you prefer,
and what do you think of all this?
=== Andy Evans ===
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Bob Lombard
Evans) wrote:
>Listening to Building a Library on Radio 3 this morning I was not so much
>surprised that two British CDs were preferred for Mozart's basson concerto.
>What brought me up short was that all the recordings with vibrato on the basoon
>were dismissed out of hand as "sentimental" and even "bleating", with a summing
>up that they "used vibrato as a kind of general purpose form of expression
>instead of using more interesting devices".
>Well, tell a violin player that vibrato is just a general purpose form of
>expression. But, further than this I wonder if in the search for that bleached
>white vocal sound Brits seem to like, some sort of misguided 'purity' hasn't
>spread to the whole of the orchestra. I for one hate that sine-wave British
>clarinet tone, and I have to say that the moment I heard the worst offender -
>bassoonist Milan Turkovic - my heart jumped for joy. At last a bassoon played
>with real tone and feeling.
>So is vibrato "non PC" these days? I can hardly believe it. What do you prefer,
>and what do you think of all this?
>
The existence of vibrato isn't as important as the width of the yaw,
but it just doesn't work in most pre-Romantic period music, That
includes the fiddle - and the human voice.
bl
ansermetniac
Evans) wrote:
Vibrato robs the phrase of its natural expression
Leopold Mozart
Vibrato is for people who do not like music
J.S. Powell
Vibrato is a tool for those who can't find the intinsic architecture
of a phrase.
J.S. Powell
Vibrato is a tool to show off one's voice or instument and not the
Music
J.S. Powell
Sidney Bechet got his vibrato by shaking his dick in front of the bell
Dave Liebman (while very stoned)
We listened to Bechet for an hour at 45 rpm without realizing it
should have been 33 1/3. I was straight.
Abbedd
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Simon Roberts
>
>Listening to Building a Library on Radio 3 this morning I was not so much
>surprised that two British CDs were preferred for Mozart's basson concerto.
>What brought me up short was that all the recordings with vibrato on the basoon
>were dismissed out of hand as "sentimental" and even "bleating", with a summing
>up that they "used vibrato as a kind of general purpose form of expression
>instead of using more interesting devices".
At least they recognized it as an expressive device and perhaps even style.
British reviewers are (or were) even more dismissive of horn playing that strays
from the British norm, especially if it's French or East European (or, heaven
forbid, Russian).
>Well, tell a violin player that vibrato is just a general purpose form of
>expression.
It often seems to be, though, the result being the equivalent of a meal
consisting of nothing but a range slightly differently flavored sugar. The
standard HIP line - I've no idea how true it is - is that at least until the
early Romantic period string vibrato was reserved for specific expressive
purposes and not employed continuously.
But, further than this I wonder if in the search for that bleached
>white vocal sound Brits seem to like, some sort of misguided 'purity' hasn't
>spread to the whole of the orchestra.
Why "misguided"?
I for one hate that sine-wave British
>clarinet tone, and I have to say that the moment I heard the worst offender -
>bassoonist Milan Turkovic - my heart jumped for joy. At last a bassoon played
>with real tone and feeling.
Interestingly enough, Turkovic is perhaps the pre-eminent HIP bassoonist (he
also plays modern bassoons). Which recording of his did you hear? (I think
he's recorded it both ways, as it were, modern with Hager (?), HIP with
Harnoncourt.)
>So is vibrato "non PC" these days? I can hardly believe it. What do you prefer,
>and what do you think of all this?
Depends on how much, how used, by whom, in what music.... My favorite
orchestral modern instrument wind playing is the Philharmonia's under Klemperer
(in particular, the "strong" sound he, but evidently no-one else, wanted from
them); one reason why his Das Lied is probably my favorite.
Simon
Lena
I think most goats sound a lot better with vibrato, also in
pre-Romantic repertoire. Otherwise, vibratos, their absence,
presence, or intermittent visitations, aren't the first issue I think
about in music. (Maybe with one exception: a wide vibrato can really
obscure pitch.)
Vibrato is a big coloristic tool of course, and the more you can vary
its use, the bigger expressive arsenal you have. So in that sense, I
do like a varied vibrato, and think a uniform use of vibrato and a
uniform lack of vibrato are both potential impoverishments...
But if the performer is good enough otherwise, I don't think the heavy
use of vibrato is automatically damning (you can make up for that
elsewhere).
Lena
Andy Evans
>
Stuttgart Chamber Orchestra with Milan Turkovic Conducted by Martin Sieghart.
Lovely sound, I thought. I certainly prefer some vibrato on the bassoon -
pre-Romantic or otherwise. It can get very bland without it to my ears. They
played a Russian version too, which had a fair bit of vibrato. Sounded nice,
and was the first for the chop. About 'purity' - surely the interesting parts
of the tone of instruments is the overtone characteristics. Who would want to
listen to a sine wave? And yet that seems to be the goal of a lot of Brits. I
just don't get it.
Bob Lombard
>Bob Lombard <mai...@sover.net> wrote in message news:<i80nc0tjih91et2cp...@4ax.com>...
>> The existence of vibrato isn't as important as the width of the yaw,
>> but it just doesn't work in most pre-Romantic period music, That
>> includes the fiddle - and the human voice.
>
>I think most goats sound a lot better with vibrato, also in
>pre-Romantic repertoire. Otherwise, vibratos, their absence,
>presence, or intermittent visitations, aren't the first issue I think
>about in music. (Maybe with one exception: a wide vibrato can really
>obscure pitch.)
>
>Vibrato is a big coloristic tool of course,
The result is either magenta or puce, and seldom fits the music
> and the more you can vary
>its use, the bigger expressive arsenal you have. So in that sense, I
>do like a varied vibrato, and think a uniform use of vibrato and a
>uniform lack of vibrato are both potential impoverishments...
Woodwinds played with vibrato remind me of Spike Jones; not sure why
that is.
>
>But if the performer is good enough otherwise, I don't think the heavy
>use of vibrato is automatically damning (you can make up for that
>elsewhere).
If the performer is 'good enough otherwise', the vibrato is an
unnecessary obscurant, cause for ridicule and or disgust if not
damnation.
>
>Lena
bl
Rob Barnett
violin.
I recall recordings of the Sibelius Violin Concerto where the vibrato-ridden
violin of Eugene Sarbu and Boris Belkin completely ruined the effect for me.
Oddly enough I revel in the French Horn vibrato you hear in Soviet
recordings of say Tchaik 5 and the wobble on the trombone in Sibelius 7
(Mravinsky, Leningrad PO, Moscow, 1965) all adds to the awe-struck bardic
monumentalism of the performance.
Turning to the human voice. Peter Pears' spavine bleating tenor may well
have put me off much of the vocal Britten for life. My ideal is vibrato-less
(or close) singing. Take Finzi's Intimations of Immortality - compare the
Ian Partridge version (old Lyrita LP SRCS 75) with the Hickox (Langridge)
and Best (?) conducted version on EMI and Hyperion. For me no contest. It's
the Lyrita every time. Partridge miraculously sustains the note without a
beat every time. The presence of vibrato somehow disrupts the communication
of the 'sense' of the words. Similarly in Finzi's Dies Natalis as taken by
Wilfred Brown - compare any of the other recorded versions. Another good
singer in my estimation Gerald English - listen to him in the Measham
conducted orchestral version of RVW's On Wenlock Edge (Unicorn).
I hope that this is because of my tastes rather than JUST because I happen
to be a Brit. Certainly, while I have been brought up on Radio 3 there I
encountered a fair share of both with and without vibrato singing.
I'll work on the basis that not everyone in the States shares the same view
on artistic matters and that we can all be allowed some individuality.
Rob
--
Rob Barnett
Editor, Classical Music on the Web
www.musicweb.uk.net
Editor, British Music Society Newsletter
"Andy Evans" <aeatarts...@aol.comnohawker> wrote in message
news:20040612172821...@mb-m12.aol.com...
John Gavin
The thing is, vibrato has been so overdone and abused, especially by
opera singers - and pop singers use it in the most cliched way
possible. It also has been over-used by aging singers to obscure
vocal problems.
If you want to hear vibrato employed in a most masterful and varied
way, listen to Jascha Heifetz.
Simon Roberts
>
>Turning to the human voice. Peter Pears' spavine bleating tenor may well
>have put me off much of the vocal Britten for life. My ideal is vibrato-less
>(or close) singing. Take Finzi's Intimations of Immortality - compare the
>Ian Partridge version (old Lyrita LP SRCS 75) with the Hickox (Langridge)
>and Best (?) conducted version on EMI and Hyperion. For me no contest. It's
>the Lyrita every time. Partridge miraculously sustains the note without a
>beat every time. The presence of vibrato somehow disrupts the communication
>of the 'sense' of the words.
But Ian Partridge *does* have vibrato. You probably notice it less than
Langridge's because it's "smaller" and even and constant and never sounds as
though it might one day end up as a wobble. If vibrato were Pears' only
problem....
Simon
ansermetniac
>If you want to hear vibrato employed in a most masterful and varied
>way, listen to Jascha Heifetz.
Broadus Earle too
Alan Cooper
>If you want to hear vibrato employed in a most masterful and varied
>way, listen to Jascha Heifetz.
Szigeti even more so. And if you want to hear a string quartet that
knows when and when not to use vibrato, get the Tatrai Quartet
recordings of the Haydn op. 20 Quartets or the Schubert Strng Quintet.
AC
DaNe
practically impossible to play long lines and to shape phrases expressively
with no vibrato at all. Even HIP violinists don't do this anymore. Excessive
vibrato is of course another thing.
Maybe there are other more competent wind players (and especially
bassoonists) to join the discussion?
Regards,
Darko
arri bachrach
> Turkovic is perhaps the pre-eminent HIP bassoonist (he also plays modern
> bassoons). Which recording..Hager (?), or HIP with Harnoncourt.)
> >
I have used a vibrato on my bassoon for over a 1/2 century but never
used "HIP"... what is HIP.... or are we talking about "hip, hip
hoorah" :-)
AB
BTW- a bassoon sound without a vibrato sounds like a cow mooing, IMO
Iain Neill Reid
[...snip ...]]
>What brought me up short was that all the recordings with vibrato on the basoon
>were dismissed out of hand as "sentimental" and even "bleating", with a summing
>up that they "used vibrato as a kind of general purpose form of expression
>instead of using more interesting devices".
>Well, tell a violin player that vibrato is just a general purpose form of
>expression. But, further than this I wonder if in the search for that bleached
>white vocal sound Brits seem to like, some sort of misguided 'purity' hasn't
>spread to the whole of the orchestra. I for one hate that sine-wave British
>clarinet tone, and I have to say that the moment I heard the worst offender -
OK - I'm confused here. the usual sniping at Brit clarinet players is
that they have too much vibrato, with accolades being heaped on the
straight-toned approach favoured by the likes of Leister, Wright et al.
Care to clarify?
Neill Reid - i...@stsci.edu
(who favours the natural singing style promoted by reginald Kell and my
old teacher, Frank Sabin.)
DaNe
"Andy Evans" <aeatarts...@aol.comnohawker> wrote in message
news:20040612172821...@mb-m12.aol.com...
> surprised that two British CDs were preferred for Mozart's basson
> concerto.
And these are...?
Andy Evans
I'm very glad to hear it!
Andy Evans
they have too much vibrato, with accolades being heaped on the straight-toned
approach favoured by the likes of Leister, Wright et al. Care to clarify?>
I believe that the Brits tend to fall between the German and French schools,
with more orchestral 'cred' going to the German style at pesent in the main
orchestras. This is from a a player in the French style who felt disadvantaged
at such auditions, though her teacher was in fact Andrew Marriner of the LSO.
An example of a British clarinettist who sounds very bland to me is Emma
Johnson. I don't personally like Leister at all.
Dan Koren
news:20040612172821...@mb-m12.aol.com...
> surprised that two British CDs were preferred for Mozart's basson
concerto.
> What brought me up short was that all the recordings with vibrato on the
basoon
> were dismissed out of hand as "sentimental" and even "bleating", with a
summing
> up that they "used vibrato as a kind of general purpose form of expression
> instead of using more interesting devices".
> Well, tell a violin player that vibrato is just a general purpose form of
> expression. But, further than this I wonder if in the search for that
bleached
> white vocal sound Brits seem to like, some sort of misguided 'purity'
hasn't
> spread to the whole of the orchestra. I for one hate that sine-wave
British
> clarinet tone, and I have to say that the moment I heard the worst
offender -
> bassoonist Milan Turkovic - my heart jumped for joy. At last a bassoon
played
> with real tone and feeling.
> So is vibrato "non PC" these days? I can hardly believe it. What do you
prefer,
> and what do you think of all this?
>
We need legislation ASAP to require
installation of catalytic converters
in all woodwind instruments ;-)
dk
Raymond Hall
> Turkovic is perhaps the pre-eminent HIP bassoonist (he also plays modern
> bassoons). Which recording..Hager (?), or HIP with Harnoncourt.)
> >
>
> Stuttgart Chamber Orchestra with Milan Turkovic Conducted by Martin
Sieghart.
> Lovely sound, I thought. I certainly prefer some vibrato on the bassoon -
> pre-Romantic or otherwise. It can get very bland without it to my ears.
They
> played a Russian version too, which had a fair bit of vibrato. Sounded
nice,
> and was the first for the chop. About 'purity' - surely the interesting
parts
> of the tone of instruments is the overtone characteristics. Who would want
to
> listen to a sine wave? And yet that seems to be the goal of a lot of
Brits. I
> just don't get it.
A bassoon sounds like a bassoon precisely because it *does not* produce a
sinewave. Vibrato has nothing whatsoever to do with musical phrasing. It is
merely a question of taste and preference as to the actual sound of an
instrument.
Ray, Taree, NSW
See You Tamara (Ozzy Osbourne)
Matthew B. Tepper
letters to be typed in news:caiafo$esi$1...@ls219.htnet.hr:
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Andy Evans
Hello Ray - surely vibrato is part of how you shape the sound, which is part of
how the phrase sounds? I would also have thought that players varied vibrato
with the type of phrase. For instance, when I was taught the double bass I was
taught to use a slower vabrato on lower notes than on higher ones.
ansermetniac
bachrach) wrote:
>BTW- a bassoon sound without a vibrato sounds like a cow mooing, IMO
its the other way around. it is a pity that you don' t like the sound
of your own instrument.
Alan Watkins
Not really qualified to say, probably, but I would think the practise
varies from country to country. I think the "careful" use of vibrato
adds great warmth to the wind section.
In the case of the saxophone I would think it pretty difficult to play
it without vibrato although others may know better.
As with all things I would think it depends on how much vibrato and
how much it alters the note but this is written by one incapable of
that art, save for the vibraphone where it comes "built in." and is
part of the beauty of the sound.
When I have heard it discussed, the general opinion has been that it
is very much down to the individual player. You could certainly abuse
such instruments by too much vibrato but might enhance them with just
the right amount?
I have had the good fortune to listen to some of my colleagues playing
wonderfully in such a work as Scheherazade and in that, at least, I
would think that the absence of vibrato would be a handicap. It seems
to me a work that cries out for it. It is not a "straight" piece for
the wind section as I hear it. In the same way, Smetana frequently
writes Lusingando for the wind players (coaxingly, teasingly) and I
would think the odd bit of vibrato might come in handy at such points.
In awe of wind players but not otherwise qualified.
Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins
Eric Nagamine
Geez. I guess that likes of the Tyslar Bros., Pokleh, Damm, Baumann
were/are horn players who don't like music :)
--
-----------
Aloha and Mahalo,
Eric Nagamine
http://home.hawaii.rr.com/mahlerb/broadcaststartpage.html
ansermetniac
wrote:
You forgot the long line of horn players who played in the Paris
Conservatory. Damm's constant shake is a joke . Too bad. He sounds
like if he straightened out his sound he would be a fine horn player.
I have heard Baumann play without vibrato.
And what about Myers. His playing on a certain Brahms Symphony I heard
on the radio ruined the performance. He stuck out like a sore thumb.
But Masur is ultimately at fault.
Dennis Brain used no vibrato. He did not have too.
BTW a tuba player played with a wide vibrato. After a loud note,
Beecham asked him if he would now pull the chain.
Dan Koren
news:62c8649c.04061...@posting.google.com...
>
> I have had the good fortune to listen to some of my colleagues playing
> wonderfully in such a work as Scheherazade and in that, at least, I
> would think that the absence of vibrato would be a handicap. It seems
> to me a work that cries out for it. It is not a "straight" piece for
> the wind section as I hear it. In the same way, Smetana frequently
> writes Lusingando for the wind players (coaxingly, teasingly) and I
> would think the odd bit of vibrato might come in handy at such points.
>
> In awe of wind players but not otherwise qualified.
>
This just reminds me:
Can you name an orchestral score
where the woodwinds are required
to play "con ancia umida" (with
wet reeds)?
dk
Andy Evans
suited the bassoon. Maybe not the horn. Judging by the sound of the trumpets in
the Czech Phil I'd say they use a little vibrato, and I like that effect more
than I thought I would. Maybe nostalgia for street bands which are such a
pleasure in Eastern Europe
Dan Koren
news:ra0nc0t6vltfmpuc6...@4ax.com...
>
> Vibrato robs the phrase of its natural expression
>
> Leopold Mozart
Mozart Sr. lived in very different times and
heard very different music than we do today.
And most of what he heard would not pass for
music today -- except to baroque fans.
> Vibrato is for people who do not like music
>
> J.S. Powell
An idiot.
> Vibrato is a tool for those who can't find
> the intinsic architecture of a phrase.
>
> J.S. Powell
A double idiot.
> Vibrato is a tool to show off one's voice or
> instument and not the Music
>
> J.S. Powell
A triple idiot.
> Sidney Bechet got his vibrato by shaking his
> dick in front of the bell
And a racist. Is this your own finding? Perhaps
you should follow Bechet's example and practice.
> Dave Liebman (while very stoned)
> We listened to Bechet for an hour at 45 rpm
> without realizing it should have been 33 1/3.
> I was straight.
Too bad, since you're warped. No wonder you
like Ansermet so much -- he was one of the
driest conductors ever, and his orchestra
sounded exactly like a Swiss clock ticking.
dk
Tatifan
Reginald Kell played with a wider vibrato than any clarinettist before
or since (well, Bechet and others in Jazz, obviously, but for a
Classical clarinettist).
I think it's funny to see such categorical approval or denial of
vibrato -- like it's some switch you turn on or off. How absurd...
it's something that used to be as a fingerprint for many performers...
no one could mistake Kreisler for Szigeti or Heifetz, and vibrato was
one of the personal signatures -- Ysaye gets credit for the first
violinist to use CONTINUOUS vibrato, but it was a matter of debate and
regional taste as well -- Joachim was more chaste with it; Sarasate
more wild and quick -- by contemporary standards. Soloists used more
of it generally, as careful listening to string sections of pre-war
orchestras will reveal --- compare the Czech PO in "Ma Vlast" in 1929
to the post war recordings. And even when orchestras use more of it,
they match each other more carefully than many a modern day orchestra
-- one of the ironies of Stokowski's Philadelphia Orchestra is this
close matching among all the players vibrati, amidst the well
documented "free" bowing he encouraged.
My biggest gripe with reading many opinions as to whether we need or
desire vibrato at all is that it promotes more of what we have today
-- many, many orchestras and soloists that sound far too much the SAME
as everyone else in the world -- I'm sure many would prefer the
Russian horn sound to cool it a notch -- and certainly Mravinsky was
the first of a number of Russian conducters to strive for a "bit" more
international sound from his group -- but must we sacrifice all
regional traditions and styles just to please someone's overly
sensitive nature toward vibrato -- in my opinion we've already lost
much of what was unique about the Czech PO, Vienna PO, and Asterdam
Concertgebouw Orchestras, because we have too many people getting jobs
who are trying to sound like they are "supposed" to -- like everyone
else, so they don't rock the boat and risk not getting that job, and
the many weak-willed teachers of the world without the creativity and
vision to encourage well-founded individuality!
The irony of all of this homogeneity is that we can point a big fat
finger at the development and industry of recordings. Now we can't
sell the damned records because we can't tell them apart!!
Eric Nagamine
> It could be that vibrato suits some instruments more than others - I'd say it
> suited the bassoon. Maybe not the horn. Judging by the sound of the trumpets in
> the Czech Phil I'd say they use a little vibrato, and I like that effect more
> than I thought I would. Maybe nostalgia for street bands which are such a
> pleasure in Eastern Europe
>
It's interesting that the British Brass Band tradition of vibrato didn't
transfer over to it's symphonic tradition that much. I can think of only
a few players, mostly those who came directly out the brass band
tradition to actively use vibrato.
Eric Nagamine
Humm. Considering all the honors both Damm & Baumann have garnered, I
think they know how to use vibrato in the right context. I've heard Damm
play Bruckner beautifully in solo horn part as well as in the context of
the section of the Staatskapelle. I think it takes great skill to
control vibrato with such security. Similarly, a friend once heard
Baumann do the Brahms 1 solo on natural horn with vibrato. Baumann said
the sound of today's valved instrument is nothing like what Brahms would
have heard.
In some ways it's a shame the Paris sound is lost. The sound of the PCO
& the BSO in the 50's was very unique and quite appropriate to the sound
of Ravel & Debussy. Today the sound is so homogenized, it could be the
L.A. Phil.
> And what about Myers. His playing on a certain Brahms Symphony I heard
> on the radio ruined the performance. He stuck out like a sore thumb.
> But Masur is ultimately at fault.
You really need to hear Phil live in a current concert. He was
magnificent in the Brahms 1 I heard last May. He certainly has a fuller
tone and sounds more secure since he switched to his Schmid.
> Dennis Brain used no vibrato. He did not have too.
I think when he was still playing the Raoux horn, he had a trace of
vibrato to cover up the thinness of tone on the instrument. I hear it
less so after he switched to the Alex.
> BTW a tuba player played with a wide vibrato. After a loud note,
> Beecham asked him if he would now pull the chain.
>
Considering Tommy's back ground of patent medicine....he probably was on
drugs most of the time. All the great tubists have used vibrato at
various times. Don Harry & Floyd Cooley most recently do a great job of
their judicious use of vibrato in the solo repertory.
Andy Evans
Kell played with a wider vibrato than any clarinettist before or since>
Nice post! I think the other factor with the clarinet is the reed - a more
reedy tone isn't the same as vibrato but it sure makes the sound less bland.
Good to hear the clarinets in the Czech PO which have that rich woody sound.
Andy Evans
transfer over to it's symphonic tradition>
Would you know the prevalence of brass bands in Europe? There certainly seems
more of a 'street' tradition with the Fanfares - closer to broad entertainment
and folk music than the British marches.
ansermetniac
wrote:
So anyone who disagrees with you is an idiot. What do you call someone
who agrees with you. And what is this racist shit. What does Bechet's
vibrato have to do with his race. And I atrributed ther quote to the
originator that is not me. I think you're stetching it a a bit.
Simon Roberts
>
>It could be that vibrato suits some instruments more than others - I'd say it
>suited the bassoon. Maybe not the horn. Judging by the sound of the trumpets in
>the Czech Phil I'd say they use a little vibrato, and I like that effect more
>than I thought I would. Maybe nostalgia for street bands which are such a
>pleasure in Eastern Europe
The principal trumpet of the Philadelphia Orchestra 15 years or so ago at times
went so far beyond mere vibrato that I would have sworn his model was Gwyneth
Jones on a bad day.
Simon
Lena
> >
> The existence of vibrato isn't as important as the width of the yaw,
> but it just doesn't work in most pre-Romantic period music, That
> includes the fiddle - and the human voice.
Yes, yes, but what happened to your important post about puce,
magenta, cerise, and chartreuse? I was about to answer and your
message has gone up in smoke. Sorcery? Or excessive vibrato? Who
knows.
Lena
arri bachrach
> I have used a vibrato on my bassoon for over a 1/2 century>
>
> I'm very glad to hear it!
>
> === Andy Evans ===
so were the people who heard it all these years :-))))
AB
arri bachrach
those statements about vibrato are nonsense (to be polite)
AB
arri bachrach
> On 13 Jun 2004 11:03:34 -0700, abac...@worldnet.att.net (arri
> bachrach) wrote:
>
> >BTW- a bassoon sound without a vibrato sounds like a cow mooing, IMO
>
> its the other way around. it is a pity that you don' t like the sound
> of your own instrument.
>
> Abbedd
>
where the hell did you get that impression..... your statement above is pitiable
AB
arri bachrach
> sinewave. Vibrato has nothing whatsoever to do with musical phrasing.
ridiculous..... vibrato is intergrated into the tone, phrase, etc.
using a vibrato without considering the phrase..... might as well play
with oneself..
AB
ansermetniac
bachrach) wrote:
Arri
In the Music Industry I am the very best at what I do. My product
backs me up on thta. You are a community orchesta level bassoonist who
after 50 years does not know if he uses a beat vibrato or a pitch
vibrato.
So who is the fool. I don't care if you are the Alter Kaker and I am
rthe Boychik, how about a little respect for someonw ho has proven
himself in the world of woodwinds.
Abbedd
>>
>> ________________
>>
>> Go To Abbedd's Place For the MP3S of the Week
>>
________________
Go To Abbedd's Place For the MP3S of the Week
http://members.aol.com/abbedd/abbedd
Dan Koren
"ansermetniac" <anserm...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:b4rrc0tc20dcu6di8...@4ax.com...
> On 14 Jun 2004 10:49:35 -0700, abac...@worldnet.att.net (arri
> bachrach) wrote:
>
> >ansermetniac <anserm...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:<po8rc0h1nh7bilnuo...@4ax.com>...
> >> On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 06:11:07 GMT, "Dan Koren" <dank...@yahoo.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> So anyone who disagrees with you is an idiot. What do you call someone
> >> who agrees with you. And what is this racist shit. What does Bechet's
> >> vibrato have to do with his race. And I atrributed ther quote to the
> >> originator that is not me. I think you're stetching it a a bit.
> >
> > I dont know if this guy is an idiot, but about music he is a fool....
> > those statements about vibrato are nonsense (to be polite)
>
> In the Music Industry I am the very best at what I do. My product
> backs me up on thta. You are a community orchesta level bassoonist who
> after 50 years does not know if he uses a beat vibrato or a pitch
> vibrato.
>
> So who is the fool. I don't care if you are the Alter Kaker and I am
> rthe Boychik, how about a little respect for someonw ho has proven
> himself in the world of woodwinds.
>
The War of the Bassoons has started! ;-)
I love it!
dk
PS. When we see the violists going to
war against each other we will know
the world is near its end! ;-)
Dan Koren
>
> So anyone who disagrees with you is an idiot. >
I reserve the right to call people
idiots even when they agree with me! ;-)
dk
Dan Koren
news:cag1i...@drn.newsguy.com...
> >
> > So is vibrato "non PC" these days? I can hardly believe it.
> > What do you prefer, and what do you think of all this?
>
Aren't all vibrators created equal ?!?
dk
ansermetniac
wrote:
>
>
>"ansermetniac" <anserm...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:b4rrc0tc20dcu6di8...@4ax.com...
>> On 14 Jun 2004 10:49:35 -0700, abac...@worldnet.att.net (arri
>> bachrach) wrote:
>>
>> >ansermetniac <anserm...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:<po8rc0h1nh7bilnuo...@4ax.com>...
>> >> On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 06:11:07 GMT, "Dan Koren" <dank...@yahoo.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> So anyone who disagrees with you is an idiot. What do you call someone
>> >> who agrees with you. And what is this racist shit. What does Bechet's
>> >> vibrato have to do with his race. And I atrributed ther quote to the
>> >> originator that is not me. I think you're stetching it a a bit.
>> >
>> > I dont know if this guy is an idiot, but about music he is a fool....
>> > those statements about vibrato are nonsense (to be polite)
>>
>> In the Music Industry I am the very best at what I do. My product
>> backs me up on thta. You are a community orchesta level bassoonist who
>> after 50 years does not know if he uses a beat vibrato or a pitch
>> vibrato.
>>
>> So who is the fool. I don't care if you are the Alter Kaker and I am
>> rthe Boychik, how about a little respect for someonw ho has proven
>> himself in the world of woodwinds.
>>
>
>
>The War of the Bassoons has started! ;-)
>
>I love it!
>
>
But first we dance to Rimsky-Korsakoff!!!!
Abbedd
>
>dk
>
>PS. When we see the violists going to
>war against each other we will know
>the world is near its end! ;-)
>
________________
ansermetniac
wrote:
>"ansermetniac" <anserm...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
Well I'm glad we got that straigthened out
Abbedd
>
>dk
DaNe
"Matthew B. Tepper" <oy兀earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:Xns95079998A5...@207.217.125.205...
> Maybe one of them was Gwydion Brooke with Beecham?
Wouldn't be surprised. After all, his Minuet finale really dances. I am less
happy with his Stravinskian cadenza and his articulation of the rapid
passagework in the first movement but at least he is far from being bland
(try Chapman/Marriner for IMHO really bland playing).
Regards,
Darko
Simon Roberts
I'm flattered that you think I know, but I'm afraid I must defer to those with
greater experience....
Simon
Bob Lombard
I sure don't. My point, other than the ridge on my head that looks
like a point from some perspectives, is that vibrato should be
controlled so as not to obscure the music. Some Romantic composers
_planned_ for vibrato soloists; the music allows for their excess.
One of the posts mentions Kell's vibrato in Mozart's concerto. That
works quite well, and I consider it a miracle of serendipity.
bl
Andy Evans
Wouldn't be surprised. After all, his Minuet finale really dances.>
This was well reviewed but the Manchester Camerata was one of the two top
recommendations, and the other was a woman.
John Turner
> aeatarts...@aol.comnohawker (Andy Evans) wrote in message news:<20040613041846...@mb-m22.aol.com>...
> > Turkovic is perhaps the pre-eminent HIP bassoonist (he also plays modern
> > bassoons). Which recording..Hager (?), or HIP with Harnoncourt.)
> > >
>
> I have used a vibrato on my bassoon for over a 1/2 century but never
> used "HIP"... what is HIP.... or are we talking about "hip, hip
> hoorah" :-)
>
> AB
>
> BTW- a bassoon sound without a vibrato sounds like a cow mooing, IMO
I was going to ask you directly, Arri, but I thought you might have
this kind of opinion . . . tried to send this link to you yesterday,
but expected you would respond in any event . . . "cow mooing" -- I
like that! ;-)))) -- I was thinking more about a goose doing whatever
it is to make a goose sound -- your explanation is better!!
John Turner
John Turner
> aeatarts...@aol.comnohawker (Andy Evans) wrote in message news:<20040613041846...@mb-m22.aol.com>...
> > Turkovic is perhaps the pre-eminent HIP bassoonist (he also plays modern
> > bassoons). Which recording..Hager (?), or HIP with Harnoncourt.)
> > >
>
> I have used a vibrato on my bassoon for over a 1/2 century but never
> used "HIP"... what is HIP.... or are we talking about "hip, hip
> hoorah" :-)
>
> AB
Oh, and BTW, just what is HIP? We really don't know. I've read that
Harnoncourt wants no strings' vibrato (presumably woodwinds, etc.,
too) in performances of Berlioz, esp. the Symphonie Fantastique! When
will this guy give up?? It's going to take a long time, I should
think, to get vibrato out of Philadelphia, and not *just* the
Orchestra!
John Turner
John Turner
> In article <20040614020328...@mb-m11.aol.com>, Andy Evans says...
> >
> >It could be that vibrato suits some instruments more than others - I'd say it
> >suited the bassoon. Maybe not the horn. Judging by the sound of the trumpets in
> >the Czech Phil I'd say they use a little vibrato, and I like that effect more
> >than I thought I would.
>
> went so far beyond mere vibrato that I would have sworn his model was Gwyneth
> Jones on a bad day.
>
> Simon
Are you referring to Gilbert Johnson, one of the finest orchestra
principal trumpets of the 20th century? Maybe you're thinking of
Frank Kaderabek, who was Herseth's assistant in Chicago before going
to Philadelphia to replace Johnson. Certainly Kaderabek developed
serious problems, was ultimately removed by Sawallisch (should have
been removed by Muti, who may have tried, I think he did, but
ultimately didn't have the b**** to see it through). Did you know,
for triva's sake, that Kaderabek is Czech (although trained entirely
in the US). Have you heard his solo CD make in Prague? It's quite
interesting, really -- probably worth having (which I do) . . .
John Turner, Philadelphia
arri bachrach
> >> So anyone who disagrees with you is an idiot. What do you call someone
> >> who agrees with you. And what is this racist shit. What does Bechet's
> >> vibrato have to do with his race. And I atrributed ther quote to the
> >> originator that is not me. I think you're stetching it a a bit.
> >>
> >I dont know if this guy is an idiot, but about music he is a fool....
> >those statements about vibrato are nonsense (to be polite)
> >
> >AB
> >
> Arri
>
> In the Music Industry I am the very best at what I do. My product
> backs me up on thta. You are a community orchesta level bassoonist who
> after 50 years does not know if he uses a beat vibrato or a pitch
> vibrato.
>
> So who is the fool. I don't care if you are the Alter Kaker and I am
> rthe Boychik, how about a little respect for someonw ho has proven
> himself in the world of woodwinds.
>
>
> Abbedd
how could you know much about vibrato.. American horn players do not
use vibrato
FYI "community orchestras" have among their memebers rank amateurs who
can hardly play their instruments to professional level
instrumentalists..... I happen to belong to the latter group. I
played a recital at the IDRS conferenc(Internation Double Read
Society), almost all recitalists are top professionals from top
orchestras and colleges.
Where have you played your horn?????
AB
Simon Roberts
says...
>
>Simon Roberts <sd...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>news:<cak87...@drn.newsguy.com>...
>> In article <20040614020328...@mb-m11.aol.com>, Andy Evans says...
>> >
>>>It could be that vibrato suits some instruments more than others - I'd say it
>>>suited the bassoon. Maybe not the horn. Judging by the sound of the trumpets in
>>>the Czech Phil I'd say they use a little vibrato, and I like that effect more
>> >than I thought I would.
>>
>>The principal trumpet of the Philadelphia Orchestra 15 years or so ago at times
>> went so far beyond mere vibrato that I would have sworn his model was Gwyneth
>> Jones on a bad day.
>>
>> Simon
>
>Are you referring to Gilbert Johnson, one of the finest orchestra
>principal trumpets of the 20th century? Maybe you're thinking of
>Frank Kaderabek, who was Herseth's assistant in Chicago before going
>to Philadelphia to replace Johnson. Certainly Kaderabek developed
>serious problems, was ultimately removed by Sawallisch (should have
>been removed by Muti, who may have tried, I think he did, but
>ultimately didn't have the b**** to see it through).
Yes, Kaderabek. His contribution to a Muti-conducted Scriabin Poem of Ecstasy
is one of the noisiest and most unpleasant sounds I've ever encountered (though
the rest of the racket going on around him didn't help). His replacement is
incomparably superior.
Did you know,
>for triva's sake, that Kaderabek is Czech (although trained entirely
>in the US). Have you heard his solo CD make in Prague? It's quite
>interesting, really -- probably worth having (which I do) . . .
No, and no. Thanks for the suggestion, but I'm afraid that trumpet solos don't
interest me much.
Simon
ansermetniac
bachrach) wrote:
<<how could you know much about vibrato.. American horn players do not
use vibrato>>
Gee, I designed the mouthpieces played by Michael Brecker, Branford
Marsalis, Tom Scott et al, for an instrument I do not play because I
know nothing about wind playing.
For a Science teacher, even one in NYC, you are not very scientific.
Even if you played in the Massapequa Symphony and not the Phil I would
not be impressed.
I gave up my spot at Juilliard to go into manufactruing. After putting
my horn under the bed for 10 years I came back, for fun, and was the
Principal in:
South Shore Symphony
Long Beach Symphony
Rockaway Five Towns
Island Senior Symphony-Almost ten years
among others
Ask Nancy Knopka how I play.
Arri, get serious. You are a player. I am a proven design and
manufacturing engineer. With the patents, reputatioin and postion to
back me up. As a man of science it may interest you that I introduced
CNC to the ENTIRE Music Industry.
Stop pissing on me
Jeffrey "Abbedd" Powell
Dan Koren
>
> As a man of science it may interest you
> that I introduced CNC to the ENTIRE Music
> Industry.
>
The you are without question the
most qualified person to make
vibrators for the entire music
industry.
dk
ansermetniac
wrote:
>"ansermetniac" <anserm...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
The guy next to me was a chemical engineer specialing in space age
polymers.r He wanted me to make the molds for him for that exact
purpose.
Abbedd
>
>dk
John Turner
> In article <10cba38e.04061...@posting.google.com>, John Turner
> says...
> >
> >Simon Roberts <sd...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> >news:<cak87...@drn.newsguy.com>...
> >> In article <20040614020328...@mb-m11.aol.com>, Andy Evans says...
> >> >
> >>>It could be that vibrato suits some instruments more than others - I'd say it
> >>>suited the bassoon. Maybe not the horn. Judging by the sound of the trumpets in
> >>>the Czech Phil I'd say they use a little vibrato, and I like that effect more
> >> >than I thought I would.
> >>
> >>The principal trumpet of the Philadelphia Orchestra 15 years or so ago at times
> >> went so far beyond mere vibrato that I would have sworn his model was Gwyneth
> >> Jones on a bad day.
> >>
> >> Simon
> >
> >Are you referring to Gilbert Johnson, one of the finest orchestra
> >principal trumpets of the 20th century? Maybe you're thinking of
> >Frank Kaderabek, who was Herseth's assistant in Chicago before going
> >to Philadelphia to replace Johnson. Certainly Kaderabek developed
> >serious problems, was ultimately removed by Sawallisch (should have
> >been removed by Muti, who may have tried, I think he did, but
> >ultimately didn't have the b**** to see it through).
>
> Yes, Kaderabek. His contribution to a Muti-conducted Scriabin Poem of Ecstasy
> is one of the noisiest and most unpleasant sounds I've ever encountered (though
> the rest of the racket going on around him didn't help).
Gilbert Johnson ca. 1971 is vastly better.
His replacement is
> incomparably superior.
Thoroughly agree.
arri bachrach
> > > those statements about vibrato are nonsense (to be polite)
> >
> > In the Music Industry I am the very best at what I do. My product
> > backs me up on thta. You are a community orchesta level bassoonist who
> > after 50 years does not know if he uses a beat vibrato or a pitch
> > vibrato.
> >
> > So who is the fool. I don't care if you are the Alter Kaker and I am
> > rthe Boychik, how about a little respect for someonw ho has proven
> > himself in the world of woodwinds.
> >
>
>
> The War of the Bassoons has started! ;-)
>
> I love it!
>
I dont know how dk can love this "War of Bassoons" since he probably
could not hear the diference between a human fart and a bassoon fart
as he so generously described the sound of a bassoon....
AB
arri bachrach
> Simon Roberts <sd...@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<cak87...@drn.newsguy.com>...
> > In article <20040614020328...@mb-m11.aol.com>, Andy Evans says...
> > >
> > >It could be that vibrato suits some instruments more than others - I'd say it
> > >suited the bassoon. Maybe not the horn. Judging by the sound of the trumpets in
> > >the Czech Phil I'd say they use a little vibrato, and I like that effect more
> > >than I thought I would.
> >
> > The principal trumpet of the Philadelphia Orchestra 15 years or so ago at times
> > went so far beyond mere vibrato that I would have sworn his model was Gwyneth
> > Jones on a bad day.
you should have heard the first trumpet of the Boston back in the 40s
and 50s with a wild vibrato. Forgot his name for the moment.....
AB
>
arri bachrach
> >The you are without question the
> >most qualified person to make
> >vibrators for the entire music
> >industry.
> >
> >
>
> The guy next to me was a chemical engineer specialing in space age
> polymers.r He wanted me to make the molds for him for that exact
> purpose.
>
yes, I think I know who you are talking about..... Matt, an excellent
trumpet player..
Nancy K. is a lovely lady. if you play the horn on her level of
bassoon playing........
AB
ansermetniac
bachrach) wrote:
>Nancy K. is a lovely lady. if you play the horn on her level of
>bassoon playing........
yes I play up to her level. And to her level when she was young and in
the Havana Symphony under Igor Markevitch. But what does that have to
do with my knowledge of wind playing?
Playng is one thing. Designing is another.
Abbedd
ansermetniac
bachrach) wrote:
>yes, I think I know who you are talking about..... Matt, an excellent
>trumpet player..
No I meant that factory owner next to me
Abbedd
Simon Roberts
>>Yes, Kaderabek. His contribution to a Muti-conducted Scriabin Poem of Ecstasy
>>is one of the noisiest and most unpleasant sounds I've ever encountered (though
>> the rest of the racket going on around him didn't help).
>That recording is pretty tough to take, all right. Ormandy's with
>Gilbert Johnson ca. 1971 is vastly better.
Actually, I was referring to a live concert (haven't heard the Muti recording);
despite the acoustics of the Academy of Music, I've never heard an orchestra
generate so much sheer noise - and despite that, his effing vibrato managed to
cut throught.
Simon
Lena
Hey, Lo-ooombard! (Btw, I'm simply calling the ultimate expert - no
mere lack of experience can stand in the way of his expertise... :) )
Lena
Bob Lombard
The only vibrator I am intimately familiar with is designed to be
applied to the back. Panasonic EV 328. My hopes for relief were
dashed. Its benefit is even more ephemeral than that purportedly
bestowed by more storied models designed for other regions of the
anatomy. I suspect that useful testimonials can be obtained by
'surfing the internet'. Personally, I'm too old and decrepit to give a
damn.
bl
Raymond Hall
news:20040613185527...@mb-m01.aol.com...
> Vibrato has nothing whatsoever to do with musical phrasing.>
>
> Hello Ray - surely vibrato is part of how you shape the sound, which is
part of
> how the phrase sounds? I would also have thought that players varied
vibrato
> with the type of phrase. For instance, when I was taught the double bass I
was
> taught to use a slower vabrato on lower notes than on higher ones.
Yes, agreed to some extent, which answers another post by Arri, but I was
trying to address the fact that from the purely mechanical point of view,
some musicians use more vibrato than others. Musicality can be expressed
with little or no vibrato, such as the line and sweep of a phrase, etc.
In jazz, as you well know, Lee Konitz uses hardly any vibrato to my ears,
yet his *cool* approach still pays enormous dividends musically. One just
has to listen more closely.
Ray, Taree, NSW
See You Tamara (Ozzy Osbourne)
Andy Evans
yet his *cool* approach still pays enormous dividends musically.>
I was just thinking that few of the bop saxists used vibrato - for a start they
played too fast. But another great disc you must know well is Coltrane's
Ballads - again pure tone, and expressive enough for me. In fact since I listen
mainly to bop I find it hard to think of a saxist with a wide vibrato - there
was some guy in the Ellington band. Trumpets the same, especially Miles. Maybe
no vibrato was consciously part of the 'birth of the cool'. Konitz was in on
that too.
Raymond Hall
> Hello, Ray.
> <In jazz, as you well know, Lee Konitz uses hardly any vibrato to my ears,
> yet his *cool* approach still pays enormous dividends musically.>
>
> I was just thinking that few of the bop saxists used vibrato - for a start
they
> played too fast. But another great disc you must know well is Coltrane's
> Ballads - again pure tone, and expressive enough for me. In fact since I
listen
> mainly to bop I find it hard to think of a saxist with a wide vibrato -
there
> was some guy in the Ellington band. Trumpets the same, especially Miles.
Maybe
> no vibrato was consciously part of the 'birth of the cool'. Konitz was in
on
> that too.
Yes, Andy, I have all of Coltrane's later albums, including Ballads. Very
little vibrato (but a tad even), and as you know, it is a sort of spiritual
thing listening to Coltrane. He exudes that feeling in a strangely mournful
way.
But even in classical music, I can think of one example where I think any
sort of noticeable vibrato would be most damaging. Notably in Mozart's
glorious clarinet concerto. Surely vibrato would damage the glorious slow
movement. I fail to see how it can do anything else. But I do know tastes
differ.
Andy Evans
vibrato would be most damaging. Notably in Mozart's glorious clarinet concerto>
I think the most important thing here is a woody tone. For instance I
personally like Benny Goodman and the Budapest. Hate that bland Emma Johnson
kind of tone. I'm sure the original instrument would have had quite a woody
tone.
Andrew Clarke
> Listening to Building a Library on Radio 3 this morning I was not so much
> surprised that two British CDs were preferred for Mozart's basson concerto.
> What brought me up short was that all the recordings with vibrato on the basoon
> were dismissed out of hand as "sentimental" and even "bleating", with a summing
> up that they "used vibrato as a kind of general purpose form of expression
> instead of using more interesting devices".
> Well, tell a violin player that vibrato is just a general purpose form of
> expression.
The HIP answer to this seems to be that in Mozart's day vibrato was
considered as a form of ornamentation, to be used sparingly. I think
it may have been Joachim [?????]who was the first to use continuous
vibrato -- if not, it was one of his contemporaries.
What's happened, I think, is that a lot of people, after the initial
shock, found that they rather preferred the sound of instruments
played without vibrato, and made this into a convenient rule of thumb
which may or may not be fair to the recording in question.
> But, further than this I wonder if in the search for that bleached
> white vocal sound Brits seem to like, some sort of misguided 'purity' hasn't
> spread to the whole of the orchestra. I for one hate that sine-wave British
> clarinet tone,
There seems to be a widespread feeling (and not only in Britain)that
the clarionet should be played like a small clarion, with a clean,
bright sound. I suspect Reginald Kell wouldn't get a job these days,
even though he had his own special magic.
I have a recording of the Brahms quintet played 'straight down the
middle' by Keith Puddy. Ironically Mr Puddy writes in the recording
notes that an investigation of Muhlfeld's very own mouthpieces
suggests that the dedicatee played with vibrato!
> and I have to say that the moment I heard the worst offender -
> bassoonist Milan Turkovic - my heart jumped for joy. At last a bassoon played
> with real tone and feeling.
I assume the Mr Turkovic was playing a modern German-system instrument
with a much more robust tone (and ease of articulation) than was
possible in Mozart's day. Again the HIP movement has made some people
actually prefer the lighter, more subdued tone of the instrument
Mozart wrote for. Whether any critic should automatically demand this
kind of tone in Mozart or Vivaldi is another matter, and my personal
view is that there is room for both the "old" and the "new" sound to
coexist: you pay your money and you take your choice. I would cite
this review of Vivaldi's bassoon concertos as HIPpy rule of thumbism
at its most prejudiced:
I own this record. Virtuoso bassoon playing, energetic performances
(the continuo players sound as if they are about to take off rather
than doze off). Incidentally the Phonnograph redeems itself by giving
an enthusiastic review of the Naxos recording of the Vivaldi
*recorder* concertos with the same orchestra and similarly with
Hungarian soloists: see
so we can't speak of national bias here.
> So is vibrato "non PC" these days?
Yup!
>I can hardly believe it. What do you prefer,
> and what do you think of all this?
I don't know if this apocryphal, but I have been told that Stravinsky
abominated the way that the bassoon solo at the beginning of the Rite
of Spring was usually recorded, because he had in mind the lighter,
reedier tone of the French-system bassoon used in Russia at the time
the piece was written, and not the German-system instrument on which
it was usually played in the American and Western European orchestras
that recorded it.
>
> === Andy Evans ===
andrew clarke
canberra
Andy Evans
jazz:
Avoiding vibrato was one of the big keys to the distinctive sound that
Claude Thornhill was known for; his band, which Miles, Mulligan, Monk,
and lots of others really liked around '46-'48, was a major influence
on the so-called "cool" sound. That degree of a whole band _avoiding_
vibrato I associate with the "cool" movement -- as it got called in
retrospect -- that was getting going '46-'47-'48. (The bands who were
doing this kind of stuff in the '40s often had arrangers or musicians
who admired people like Lester Young and Bix Beiderbecke, various
isolated major musicians who happened to be cool before cool was
cool.)
But there wasn't all that much vibrato in '40s bop either, generally,
before '46 or after. For instance, there were guys out there in the
'40s who were trying to play a lot like Louis Armstrong and/or Harry
James, and Fats Navarro and Red Rodney would not be two of them,
right?
An interesting thing about Claude Thornhill is he was already into
mixing "sweet"/"easy" with "modern"/"progressive" at a time when most
jazz fans would have said those were opposite ends of the spectrum,
and many jazz fans didn't like either end, or at least thought they
didn't! But what a rich idea it turned out to be. For instance,
without the existence of the "cool" movement, Milt Jackson might not
have grown into that distinct sound of his, might have sounded a lot
more like Lionel Hampton.
Joseph Scott
Andy Evans
Helaerts (principle bassoon under Ansermet) which is nicely light and
expressive. I guess this is the French style?
arri bachrach
> installation of catalytic converters
> in all woodwind instruments ;-)
>
>
>
> dk
also, one should be installed in your mouth and maybe in the other end too...
AB
arri bachrach
> "Matthew B. Tepper" <oy兀earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:Xns95079998A5...@207.217.125.205...
> > Maybe one of them was Gwydion Brooke with Beecham?
>
> Wouldn't be surprised. After all, his Minuet finale really dances. I am less
> happy with his Stravinskian cadenza and his articulation of the rapid
> passagework in the first movement but at least he is far from being bland
> (try Chapman/Marriner for IMHO really bland playing).
> Regards,
> Darko
IMO, Allard on the French bassoon plays with outstanding musicality
and control of the vibrato(and amazing accuracy of intonation as well)
McGill has an excellent recent commerical recording of the Mozart and
I also have a tape he sent me of a live performacne which is
absolutely spectcular. He plays with a lighter tone, rather similar
to the French sound. He is the greatest basoonist-musician of his
generation...
AB
arri bachrach
> Helaerts (principle bassoon under Ansermet) which is nicely light and
> expressive. I guess this is the French style?
not necessarily....... Allard I think truly represents the epitome of
excellence in French bassooning. I have many recordings. Helaerts was
an excellent bassoonist with a somewhat questionable technique..
AB
arri bachrach
> Helaerts (principle bassoon under Ansermet) which is nicely light and
> expressive. I guess this is the French style?
not necessarily....... Allard I think truly represents the epitome of
excellence in French bassooning. I have many recordings. Helaerts was
an excellent bassoonist with a somewhat questionable technique..
AB
>
arri bachrach
> Helaerts (principle bassoon under Ansermet) which is nicely light and
> expressive. I guess this is the French style?
not necessarily....... Allard I think truly represents the epitome of
excellence in French bassooning. I have many recordings. Helaerts was
an excellent bassoonist with a somewhat questionable technique..
AB
>
Andrew Clarke
> > Talking of the 'French' sound I have an old Vivaldi concerto disc by Henri
> > Helaerts (principle bassoon under Ansermet) which is nicely light and
> > expressive. I guess this is the French style?
The point about traditional French bassoon playing was, I understand,
more than a matter of style. The instrument itself was different in
terms of the arrangement of the keys and I think, the size of the
bore, giving a more restrained, reedy sound. The French instrument is
apparently more difficult to play in tune than the more robust
German-system instrument, which is why the latter is now generally in
use all over the world.
For a delightful (and inexpensive) example of the French bassoon's
grandfather, try the Boismortier concerto on one of the two discs of
Symphonies francaises. About seven minutes long. There are some even
quainter instruments on the rest of the recording ...
>
> not necessarily....... Allard I think truly represents the epitome of
> excellence in French bassooning. I have many recordings. Helaerts was
> an excellent bassoonist with a somewhat questionable technique..
>
> AB
And with a name like that, he was a Belgian perhaps?
ajc
canberra
gggg...@gmail.com
> Listening to Building a Library on Radio 3 this morning I was not so much
> surprised that two British CDs were preferred for Mozart's basson concerto.
> What brought me up short was that all the recordings with vibrato on the basoon
> were dismissed out of hand as "sentimental" and even "bleating", with a summing
> up that they "used vibrato as a kind of general purpose form of expression
> instead of using more interesting devices".
> Well, tell a violin player that vibrato is just a general purpose form of
> spread to the whole of the orchestra. I for one hate that sine-wave British
> with real tone and feeling.
>
> Visit our Website:- http://www.artsandmedia.com
> Audio, music and health pages and interesting links.
- Joachim was the last violin virtuoso who did not use vibrato all the time, as is customary today.
https://books.google.com/books?id=hGp0DwAAQBAJ&pg=PA204&dq=%22Joachim+was+the+last+violin+virtuoso+who+did+not+use+vibrato+all+the+time,+as+is+customary+today.%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwim-d_P0bjiAhX1GDQIHepGCiAQ6AEIKjAA#v=onepage&q=%22Joachim%20was%20the%20last%20violin%20virtuoso%20who%20did%20not%20use%20vibrato%20all%20the%20time%2C%20as%20is%20customary%20today.%22&f=false
gggg...@gmail.com
> Listening to Building a Library on Radio 3 this morning I was not so much
> surprised that two British CDs were preferred for Mozart's basson concerto.
> What brought me up short was that all the recordings with vibrato on the basoon
> were dismissed out of hand as "sentimental" and even "bleating", with a summing
> up that they "used vibrato as a kind of general purpose form of expression
> instead of using more interesting devices".
> Well, tell a violin player that vibrato is just a general purpose form of
> expression. But, further than this I wonder if in the search for that bleached
> white vocal sound Brits seem to like, some sort of misguided 'purity' hasn't
> spread to the whole of the orchestra. I for one hate that sine-wave British
> clarinet tone, and I have to say that the moment I heard the worst offender -
> bassoonist Milan Turkovic - my heart jumped for joy. At last a bassoon played
> with real tone and feeling.
> So is vibrato "non PC" these days? I can hardly believe it. What do you prefer,
> and what do you think of all this?
>
> === Andy Evans ===
> Visit our Website:- http://www.artsandmedia.com
> Audio, music and health pages and interesting links.
Music Chat: Yes! Beethoven's Orchestra Played With Vibrato