Cziffra's Chopin Etudes redux

[Dufus]

While I probably dont need another set , the playing here is hard to
resist :

Op.10, # 1 : Look , Ma, no pedal (?) :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTwRyYIPmj4

Op.10, # 2 : There IS a left hand part :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMiAUz_u0Ng&feature=related

Op.25,# 6: What's so hard about thirds ?:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-crYvMLIjJk&feature=related

Op.25,#10 : Never heard the bell tolling among the octaves before:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0akgha74Dk&feature=related

Op.25, #11: " Not hot in here for violinists " :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bA8R_f7tiq4&feature=related

Op.10, # 7 : !!! :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dB5mavtkw4w&feature=related

Op.10, # 4 : Darkness from his past ? :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_lfwU1DfZ8&feature=related

TD's GROC 2-cd set is too pricey at Amazon-US just now. The EMI
Classics 5-cd Chopin set is very cheap but contains much other I'd
rather not duplicate, if possible,although perhaps I err there ? Were
his Etudes recordings ever issued in stand-alone cd's ? Available
anywhere ? A cheaper GROC source ? I have looked to no avail. Thanks !

Dufus

[Randy Lane]

But surely your discovery is enogh to jolt you into buying this set,
especially at the current asking prices:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001DUKI1W

[Dufus]

>On Feb 23, 6:39 pm, Randy Lane <randy.l...@gmail.com> wrote:
> But surely your discovery is enogh to jolt you into buying this set,
> especially at the current asking prices:

I'd heard some before, but not really focused until lately as, like
you, I have several sets already.

Plus I spent the $600 earlier this year ; mostly on cheap cabernet to
combat GOP-itis.

Dufus

[bassppn]

have had set for years........very uneven playing, at times rather
crude. The Winter Wind had some unclear sections......... the Op. 25
is played much better by Sokolov (beautiful playing)

AB

[Steve Emerson]

In article
<f559447c-6c19-4bbc...@p12g2000yqe.googlegroups.com>,

Dufus <steve...@gmail.com> wrote:

> While I probably dont need another set , the playing here is hard to
> resist :
>
> Op.10, # 1 : Look , Ma, no pedal (?) :
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTwRyYIPmj4
>
> Op.10, # 2 : There IS a left hand part :
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMiAUz_u0Ng&feature=related
>
> Op.25,# 6: What's so hard about thirds ?:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-crYvMLIjJk&feature=related
>
> Op.25,#10 : Never heard the bell tolling among the octaves before:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0akgha74Dk&feature=related
>
> Op.25, #11: " Not hot in here for violinists " :
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bA8R_f7tiq4&feature=related
>
> Op.10, # 7 : !!! :
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dB5mavtkw4w&feature=related
>
> Op.10, # 4 : Darkness from his past ? :
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_lfwU1DfZ8&feature=related
>
> TD's GROC 2-cd set is too pricey at Amazon-US just now. The EMI
> Classics 5-cd Chopin set is very cheap but contains much other I'd
> rather not duplicate, if possible,although perhaps I err there ?

You mean, duplicate with other pianists, or duplicate with Cziffra? He
did a lot of valuable Chopin. Personally I find his etudes dazzling but
vulgar. But you should probably get yourself into a position to make up
your own mind.

There are a number of far preferable sets, however, IMO, and since I
remember your getting around to Cortot's not all that long ago, one of
them ought to come first, again IMO. Sokolov's Op 25, as mentioned
already, would be my first stop -- and/or Grigory Ginsburg's Op 25, via
the newer transfer.

SE.

[mandryka]

All of those are taken from the set which wa on the GPE I think.

Did he make any other recordings of the Etudes? Are there any lives?

[mandryka]

On Feb 24, 3:49 am, Steve Emerson <eme...@n-n-nospamsonic.net> wrote:
> In article
> <f559447c-6c19-4bbc-bde9-932e91cc5...@p12g2000yqe.googlegroups.com>,

Have you heard either of Vorssaladze's.

By the way, Gekic's much anticipated record is due out fairly soon.

[mandryka]

On Feb 23, 11:51 pm, Dufus <steveha...@gmail.com> wrote:

I think you should try Pollini's first recording -- if your etudes
collection consists of Ginsburg, Sokolov and Cortot (as Steve
suggests) you just have three romantic readings, which is a bit one
sided.

[JohnGavin]

On Feb 23, 10:26 pm, mandryka <howie.st...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> On Feb 23, 11:51 pm, Dufus <steveha...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > While I probably dont need another set , the playing here is hard to
> > resist :
>
> > Op.10, # 1 : Look , Ma, no pedal (?) :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTwRyYIPmj4
>
> > Op.10, # 2 : There IS a left hand part :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMiAUz_u0Ng&feature=related
>
> > Op.25,# 6: What's so hard about thirds ?:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-crYvMLIjJk&feature=related
>
> > Op.25,#10 : Never heard the bell tolling among the octaves before:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0akgha74Dk&feature=related
>
> > Op.25, #11: " Not hot in here for violinists " :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bA8R_f7tiq4&feature=related
>
> > Op.10, # 7 : !!! :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dB5mavtkw4w&feature=related
>
> > Op.10, # 4 : Darkness from his past ? :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_lfwU1DfZ8&feature=related
>
> > TD's GROC 2-cd set is too pricey at Amazon-US just now. The EMI
> > Classics 5-cd Chopin set is very cheap but contains much other I'd
> > rather not duplicate, if possible,although perhaps I err there ? Were
> > his Etudes recordings ever issued in stand-alone cd's ? Available
> > anywhere ? A cheaper GROC source ? I have looked to no avail. Thanks !
>
> > Dufus
>
> I think you should try Pollini's first recording

Do you mean the Testament release (which was recorded first) or the DG
(which was released first)?

[Gerard]

Dufus <steve...@gmail.com> typed:

>
> TD's GROC 2-cd set is too pricey at Amazon-US just now. The

Which set is this exactly?

[Dufus]

>On Feb 23, 9:49 pm, Steve Emerson <eme...@n-n-nospamsonic.net> wrote:
> There are a number of far preferable sets, however, IMO, and since I
> remember your getting around to Cortot's not all that long ago, one of
> them ought to come first, again IMO. Sokolov's Op 25, as mentioned
> already, would be my first stop -- and/or Grigory Ginsburg's Op 25, via

I do have Cortot , and Fiorentino, Sokolov, Anda ( the Salzburg
recital), Badura-Skoda's 1956 Westminster lp, Browning,Backhaus, maybe
another, individual Rubinstein,Richter,etc. Cziffra is different from
those.

I understand from David Fox that young Trifonov is to play both sets
live at Verbier this Summer . Op.25 was a big work for him last year
at the Rubinstein and Tchaikovsky competitions.

Thanks for your suggestions.

Dufus

[bassppn]

If you are looking for a virtuosic version of the Etudes with a
reasonable amount of sensitivity, try Gavrilov, much nicer than
Cziffra. In his prime he was a big time pianist. Not sure of their
availibility.

AB

[mandryka]

I mean the Testament, which I prefer to the DG partly because I think
the tone is less harsh. From the point of view of interpretation they
are similar.Its extraordinary that Pollini should have developed such
an original and interesting and iconoclastic understanding of Chopin's
music so young. No doubt he was influenced by Godowsky and maybe
Rubinstein. But nevertheless he carries their project to extremes with
great courage and unerring vision.

[Steve Emerson]

In article
<2d77c922-d307-40ff...@gw9g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>,
mandryka <howie...@btinternet.com> wrote:

> Have you heard either of Virssaladze's.

I don't think so, I think I never pursued them because her Chopin mostly
doesn't do much for me; nothing like her Schumann. Bunin, OTOH, I like
very much.

> By the way, Gekic's much anticipated record is due out fairly soon.

I imagine that'll be interesting. No idea what to expect beyond that.
What label?

SE.

[Steve Emerson]

In article
<91d9b817-49c1-4cc5...@t15g2000yqi.googlegroups.com>,

Dufus <steve...@gmail.com> wrote:

> >On Feb 23, 9:49 pm, Steve Emerson <eme...@n-n-nospamsonic.net> wrote:
> > There are a number of far preferable sets, however, IMO, and since I
> > remember your getting around to Cortot's not all that long ago, one of
> > them ought to come first, again IMO. Sokolov's Op 25, as mentioned
> > already, would be my first stop -- and/or Grigory Ginsburg's Op 25, via
>
> I do have Cortot , and Fiorentino, Sokolov, Anda ( the Salzburg
> recital), Badura-Skoda's 1956 Westminster lp, Browning,Backhaus, maybe
> another, individual Rubinstein,Richter,etc. Cziffra is different from
> those.

No question about that. Different from everybody, in fact.

SE.

[JohnGavin]

I'll have to hear the Testament. Pollini's DG is my favorite set of
the 24 Etudes.

[mandryka]

On Feb 24, 6:12 pm, Steve Emerson <eme...@n-n-nospamsonic.net> wrote:
> In article

> <2d77c922-d307-40ff-8931-481d1d4ff...@gw9g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>,

>
>  mandryka <howie.st...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> > Have you heard either of Virssaladze's.
>
> I don't think so, I think I never pursued them because her Chopin mostly
> doesn't do much for me; nothing like her Schumann. Bunin, OTOH, I like
> very much.
>
> > By the way, Gekic's much anticipated record is due out fairly soon.
>
> I imagine that'll be interesting. No idea what to expect beyond that.
> What label?
>
> SE.

His own. Available for pre order from his website.

I've been listening to some Ginsburg, because you mentioned it:
Especially Winter Winds.

[mandryka]

Do you know if he's said anything about how he developed his ideas
about Chopin? Do you know if there are any live records of him playing
the Etudes.

I agree he's good: it's just the hard tone that I find hard to palate.
That must be deliberate of course -- all part of the aesthetic.

[mandryka]

On Feb 24, 6:14 pm, Steve Emerson <eme...@n-n-nospamsonic.net> wrote:
> In article
> <91d9b817-49c1-4cc5-904f-e9491722f...@t15g2000yqi.googlegroups.com>,

>
>  Dufus <steveha...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >On Feb 23, 9:49 pm, Steve Emerson <eme...@n-n-nospamsonic.net> wrote:
> > > There are a number of far preferable sets, however, IMO, and since I
> > > remember your getting around to Cortot's not all that long ago, one of
> > > them ought to come first, again IMO. Sokolov's Op 25, as mentioned
> > > already, would be my first stop -- and/or Grigory Ginsburg's Op 25, via
>
> > I do have Cortot , and Fiorentino, Sokolov, Anda ( the Salzburg
> > recital), Badura-Skoda's 1956 Westminster lp, Browning,Backhaus, maybe
> > another, individual Rubinstein,Richter,etc. Cziffra is different from
> > those.
>
> No question about that. Different from everybody, in fact.
>
> SE.

Everything is what it is and not another thing.

[bassppn]

On Feb 24, 1:14 pm, Steve Emerson <eme...@n-n-nospamsonic.net> wrote:
> In article
> <91d9b817-49c1-4cc5-904f-e9491722f...@t15g2000yqi.googlegroups.com>,
>

>  Dufus <steveha...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >On Feb 23, 9:49 pm, Steve Emerson <eme...@n-n-nospamsonic.net> wrote:
> > > There are a number of far preferable sets, however, IMO, and since I
> > > remember your getting around to Cortot's not all that long ago, one of
> > > them ought to come first, again IMO. Sokolov's Op 25, as mentioned
> > > already, would be my first stop -- and/or Grigory Ginsburg's Op 25, via
>
> > I do have Cortot , and Fiorentino, Sokolov, Anda ( the Salzburg
> > recital), Badura-Skoda's 1956 Westminster lp, Browning,Backhaus, maybe
> > another, individual Rubinstein,Richter,etc. Cziffra is different from
> > those.
>
> No question about that. Different from everybody, in fact.
>
> SE.

yes, Cortot is worth hearing. The first few are shaky technically, but
then things get much better......... some really beautiful, poetic
playing. Not mentioned, Anievas is also very impressive,(my former
teacher so I am a bit prejudised):-)

AB

[bassppn]

> the 24 Etudes.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I heard him play quite a few in concert many years ago in Carnegie
Hall. Every note in place of course, but just not enuf tonal
imagination .........

AB

[mandryka]

Yes. I too wish he would play with more tonal subtlety and variety,
and I'm very curious about why he's so restrained about timbres.
Sometimes it's more than restraint -- it's almost as if he's being
deliberately hard. I'm sure his ideas about tone are all part and
parcel of a project to find modernist interpretations of romantic
compositions.

But the rhetorical poetry of his interpretations can be very
disarming I think -- in the Testament Op 10/3 for example.

[mandryka]

I very much like Cortot's 1942 recording of Op 25.

[cmling]

op. 25, 10-12 I consider beyond praise, criticism, or comprehension.

Greetings to all,
Charley

--
Charles Milton Ling
Vienna, Austria

[bassppn]

> disarming I  think -- in the Testament Op 10/3 for example.- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

my feeling about him is that he just does not have a great ear for
sound... a very serious deficiency that can be minimized by his strong
and totally reliable technique and memory. Remember, a pianist does
not have to have a good ear to be a concert pianist.
In plain English I dont think that Pollini is a 'musical'
pianist.........

AB

[pianomaven]

On the contrary.

He has a FABULOUS ear for sound. It is just not the cushioned,
voluptuous sound you like, that's all. He hears music differently than
you do. His enormous following around the world proves that others
enjoy that individuality.

You don't. So what?

TD

[bassppn]

> TD- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

sorry.......most professional pianists tend to agree with me, of
course that does not make me, them or anybody else 'right or 'wrong'
but opinions coming from YOU......... that makes it suspect if not
worse.
The vast majority of the "enormous following" are not musicians but
music lovers.. they are certainly entitled to their likes and
dislikes, but they never make up juries in piano competitions. Maybe
my attitude strikes of elitism but so it goes........ Bloch said that
Pollini deserved to win the Chopin Competition because of his
overwhelming mastery of the piano but NOT for his musicality.

AB

AB

AB

[pianomaven]

Correct.

Moreover, I doubt that you have a "list" of "most professional
pianists" ready to go on the record to offer up as proof.

In other words, we have your opinion, such as it is.

Meanwhile Pollini's concerts continue to sell out concert halls around
the world.

Deal with it.

TD

[David Fox]

Interesting fact - there was a survey conducted by a major piano
magazine a few years ago in which they asked a broad array of famous
pianists to pick their favorite handful of all-time favorites (living
or dead). Rachmaninoff headed the list, followed by Rubinstein and
many of the usual suspects. I believe Sokolov faired the best among
the living. There are always things to agree and disagree upon on such
lists but what I found interesting is who wasn't mentioned. Pollini
did not receive a single vote.

Pollini's appeal has always eluded me. I have heard him live several
times. I don't even consider him to be a technical marvel by modern
standards. My minority opinion on Pollini served me well. When I
lived in New York I would finance my entire Carnegie Hall recital
series by selling my Pollini tickets to the highest bidder. Win/win.

DF

[mandryka]

It's one thing to say that you don't like what he does. It's a
statement of autobiography and no one can really argue with it.

It's another thing to say that what he does is misconceived or
unimaginative. That's more interesting because it's about the
performance. But it needs some supporting argument.

My own view is that Pollini's Chopin is valuable because it's an
extreme example of a tradition which goes at least as far back as
Godowsky.

[bassppn]

> Godowsky.- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

what 'tradition' are you talking about?????? Certainly Hofmann did not
play like Polini, nor any other pianist I can think of...

AB

[bassppn]

> DF- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

good for you. that makes 2 of us that 'diss' Polinii

AB

[David Fox]

Pollini as an extension of the Godowsky tradition? Please elaborate.
When I think of the Godowsky tradition I think of David Saperton,
Jorge Bolet, Abbey Simon, and to a certain degree Shura Cherkassky. I
could also put Marc-Andre Hamelin in the group. I don't think of
Pollini as anything like the players mentioned above, much less at all
like Godowsky based on the recorded legacy he left. For example,
compare the half-set of Chopin Nocturnes that Godowsky recorded in
1928 with Pollini's set. I can't hear any parallels at all.

As I wrote above, I don't question that Pollini is a major pianist
with a well-deserved reputation - well-deserved in the sense that 50
or so years of sold-out concerts proves there is a sizable public who
continually reaffirms his stature. I just don't happen to agree.
This happens. I can't think of a single major pianist (especially
those with strong personalities) that somebody I respect doesn't
happen to like. In the course of 50 years of recordings there are a
few of hisI like a great deal: Schubert D.958 and Beethoven Op.106 to
name two. Conversely I find his recording of the Chopin Nocturnes to
be something between bizarre and awful. De gustibus.

I just found his lack of inclusion (not a single vote!) in that poll
to be quite telling. There was a very wide range of pianists who
received votes ranging from Martha Argerich to Clifford Curzon. The
fact that not one single performing pianist in the sample thought to
include him is very interesting, at least to me.

DF

[bassppn]

the fact that his concerts sell out means nothing....... the average
concert goer could not tell the difference between Polini and any
number of competent pianists. (AND I AM SURE YOU COULD NOT EITHER),
being less than an average concert goer.
All you know is about bassoon vibratos........
As they say, "DEAL WITH IT"

AB

ab

[pianomaven]

There ARE parallels, but they do not flatter Leopold Godowsky. His
Nocturnes are among the most constipated readings of this sumptuous
music ever recorded. Cold almost to the freezing point.

Pollini's Nocturnes, if you have actually listened to them, are among
the more white-hot renditions of the music I can think of. They have
his characteristic clarity, of course, but simmering beneath that
clarity of texture and careful limning of the melodic line lies a
blazing temperament, one not usually associated with performances of
these Nocturnes. Indeed, they are unsettling, even somewhat
frightening to listen to, not to say intimidating, of course. Not
performances to listen to around the fireside on a cold winter's
night, I think.

Some would interpret these as cold in the same vein as Godowsky's
readings, but whereas with Godowsky there is nothing else there, with
Pollini everything is there.

TD

[pianomaven]

> the fact that his concerts sell out means nothing.. the average

> concert goer could not tell the difference between Polini and any
> number of competent pianists.

You sell yourself short, Arri. Although you haven't heard him in
decades - your own admission - I am sure you could recognize him if
you saw him in spite of his white hair.

TD

[bassppn]

> DF- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

lets see if "Leakin Deacon" responds to what you say above. I also
doubt that TD's pal, Brendel received a single vote. Lets see what TD
'thinks'

AB

[David Fox]

Actually, Brendel did receive several votes. As I indicated, the
votes were all across the stylistic spectrum.

DF

[mandryka]

What I meant was that I don't find Godowski's Chopin style
particularly romantic -- he's avoiding the sort of expression of
feeling, colour, flexibility that you hear in Friedman, for example.
Or in Cortot. And so the non-romantic Chopin you hear in Pollini has
some very early antecedents in those Godowski records.

By the way I listened again to Op 10 today on the two Pollini
recordings. I think the Testament CD is just fantastic -- warmer and
more nuanced than I'd remembered.

[Gerard]

mandryka <howie...@btinternet.com> typed:

Do you mean that the Testament CD is a reissue (and you remembered a first issue
of that recording)?
AFAIK the Testament CD is the first issue of these recording by Pollini, who did
not approve issuing it before.

[JohnGavin]

I think you just sold me on it! Thanks.

[bassppn]

surprised to hear that..........

AB

[bassppn]

[bassppn]

you are right......... I 'd rather look at him than listen to him
play:-)
AB

[mandryka]

Oh and by the way, another early antecedent to the non-romantic style
you hear in Pollini may be in Rubinstein's pre war recordings.

[bassppn]

> TD- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

more bullshit above.......you never quit.. "Blazing temperment"?
That is sickening...... You are certainly right about Godowsky.... his
recordings are surprsingly bland, but that does not make Pollini any
better........

AB

[JohnGavin]

I think that for most of Godowsky's studio efforts, he was like a deer
caught in the headlights - he didn't seem psychologically prepared for
the recording process.
I strongly believe he was a much much greater pianist than his
recordings convey. His genius does come through on occasion e.g. The
Grieg Ballade, Chopin Scherzo #4 etc.
The Nocturnes are curiously vacant - as if Godowsky the perfectionist
stifled the rest of his creative process.

I see no connection between Pollini and Godowsky - but certainly one
influence in Pollini's style (particularly in the 60s and 70s) it
would be ABM - the straightforwardness, the lean sound.
Also, I don't agree with the Pollini bashers. His playing had an
incredible purity and technical clarity in the 60s and 70s.

[mandryka]

ABM is a suggestion that I've heard made before. I can hear that
technically there are similarities -- especially rhythmically.

But I don't hear it from the point of view of the poetry, the
rhetoric.

But maybe I don't listen to enough virtuoso style ABM -- I tend to
favour the later recordings.

If I listen to my favourite ABM Chopin -- the RAI video, the Prato
concert with the second sonata and op 45 prelude, or the live mazurkas
in the brown Aura box -- they sound nothing at all like Pollini. Apart
maybe for some technical superficial things.

I suspect the link in Mozart may be clearer.

[David Fox]

On Feb 25, 12:03 pm, JohnGavin <dagd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I think that for most of Godowsky's studio efforts, he was like a deer
> caught in the headlights - he didn't seem psychologically prepared for
> the recording process.
> I strongly believe he was a much much greater pianist than his
> recordings convey.  His genius does come through on occasion e.g. The
> Grieg Ballade, Chopin Scherzo #4 etc.
> The Nocturnes are curiously vacant - as if Godowsky the perfectionist
> stifled the rest of his creative process.
>

I agree with the above. The best glimpse of what the legendary
"salon" Godowsky was probably like is his 1926 recording of his
transcription of "Morgengraus" from Schubert's "Die Schoen Mullerin"
available in Vol. 3 Marston's Complete Godowsky Edition and on the
GPOC Godowsky volume as well. It's a shame he didn't record more of
his own transcriptions, especially his Studies on the Chopin Etudes.
It's also a shame that the technology of his time couldn't capture his
live playing. The studio wasn't his friend.

DF

[pianomaven]

If Peter Andry could only have lived long enough to enjoy the release
of this CD. He dumped Pollini because Pollini wouldn't approve the
recordings he had made, among which were these Etudes. Later, he
admitted to me that he had made a mistake; he should have had more
patience. In the ensuing years Pollini has no doubt tried the patience
of many a DG executive.

TD

[pianomaven]

On Feb 25, 3:07 pm, "Gerard" <ghendrik_nospam-...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> mandryka <howie.st...@btinternet.com> typed:

He had listened to it before and commented here, I seem to recall.

TD

[pianomaven]

On Feb 25, 4:00 pm, mandryka <howie.st...@btinternet.com> wrote:

> > I see no connection between Pollini and Godowsky - but certainly one
> > influence in Pollini's style (particularly in the 60s and 70s) it
> > would be ABM - the straightforwardness, the lean sound.
> > Also, I don't agree with the Pollini bashers.  His playing had an
> > incredible purity and technical clarity in the 60s and 70s.
>
> ABM is a suggestion that I've heard made before. I can hear that
> technically there are similarities -- especially rhythmically.
>
> But I don't hear it from the point of view of the poetry, the
> rhetoric.
>
> But maybe I don't listen to enough virtuoso style ABM -- I tend to
> favour the later recordings.
>
> If I listen to my favourite ABM Chopin --  the RAI video, the Prato
> concert with the second sonata and op 45 prelude, or the live mazurkas
> in the brown Aura box -- they sound nothing at all like Pollini. Apart
> maybe for some technical  superficial things.
>
> I suspect the link in Mozart may be clearer.

I think it is rather in the perfectionism, the care and attention paid
to every single note, every musical utterance. In that, Pollini and
ABM share an affinity. Teacher and student, no doubt. Whereas it is
clear that MA learned little from the same teacher. She must have been
quite a mystery to him.

TD

[Tim Haricots]

> Pollini as an extension of the Godowsky tradition?  Please elaborate.
> When I think of the Godowsky tradition I think of David Saperton,
> Jorge Bolet, Abbey Simon, and to a certain degree Shura Cherkassky.  I
> could also put Marc-Andre Hamelin in the group.  I don't think of
> Pollini as anything like the players mentioned above, much less at all
> like Godowsky based on the recorded legacy he left.   For example,
> compare the half-set of Chopin Nocturnes that Godowsky recorded in
> 1928 with Pollini's set.  I can't hear any parallels at all.
>
> As I wrote above, I don't question that Pollini is a major pianist
> with a well-deserved reputation - well-deserved in the sense that 50
> or so years of sold-out concerts proves there is a sizable public who
> continually reaffirms his stature.  I just don't happen to agree.
> This happens.  I can't think of a single major pianist (especially
> those with strong personalities) that somebody I respect doesn't
> happen to like.  In the course of 50 years of recordings there are a
> few of hisI like a great deal:  Schubert D.958 and Beethoven Op.106 to
> name two.  Conversely I find his recording of the Chopin Nocturnes to
> be something between bizarre and awful.  De gustibus.
>
> I just found his lack of inclusion (not a single vote!) in that poll
> to be quite telling.  There was a very wide range of pianists who
> received votes ranging from Martha Argerich to Clifford Curzon.  The
> fact that not one single performing pianist in the sample thought to
> include him is very interesting, at least to me.
>

> DF- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

I remember that same poll, but the fact that the pianists who were
asked didn't mention Pollini doesn't mean his colleagues do not value
him. A lot of pianists have expressed their admiration for Pollini: I
would say when people like Nelson Freire, Vladimir Ashkenazy, Murray
Perahia and Martha Argerich express their awe, it means "something".

Actually, these polls don't mean much anyway. I remember Andras Schiff
was mentioned several times, but does that mean he is a "greater"
pianist than Pollini? Certainly not for me! I remember several
thrilling performances from Pollini in concert and absolutely none
from Schiff. None whatsoever, but hey, there is no accounting for
taste!

TH

[David Fox]

100 pianists each got three votes. Pollini didn't get any, and
Ashkenazy didn't get any votes either, though he was one of the
pianists included in the polling sample. That doesn't mean that
Pollini and Ashkenazy are considered worthless or even substandard by
their colleagues. It only means that they didn't make anybody's Top 3
in 100 tries.

Clearly Pollini is worthy of some respect for the reasons I've written
previously. I don't doubt that he is well-regarded by a good many of
his colleagues, but when push comes to shove he didn't make anybody's
short list. What this suggests to me is that his legacy, barring
some revisionist resurgence, is likelier to fade than to grow as his
career winds down. I'd draw a parallel to Georg Solti who had a huge
commercial impact for several decades, recorded and sold a ton of LPs/
CD's, and had some undeniable artistic triumphs (most notably his
Ring Cycle), but whose reputation in the decade since his death has
fallen dramatically. You don't hear many young conductors citing Solti
as a major influence and/or role model. Ashkenazy recorded
practically everything for the piano. Some of his recordings are
quite good, but he is "first choice" in virtually nothing. I don't
expect to hear many interviews by young pianists citing Ashkenazy as a
major influence.

What will be Pollini's legacy? Clarity and precision? That's been
done before and since. The current generation of young pianists is if
anything too precise, and I don't think they're actively following
Pollini's example. If they are, no one saw fit to cite him in the
poll. Detachment? That's not really a style, it's a pose. It's been
done before (and arguably far better) by ABM, and since by Andsnes,
who incidentally named Geza Anda as one of his Top Three. One could
make a case that Anda was a proto-Pollini. A number of us on this
forum know Geza Anda, but he isn't exactly a household name even among
the younger generation of pianists. Championing modern works?
Pollini likes to position himself as a modernist, but he has
championed the same handful of works for 50 years. Compare his record
in that regard to Ursula Oppens or Pierre-Laurent Aimard. Unlike
those two, Pollini has almost unquestionable box office clout. He
could program anything he wanted without having to worry about fees or
ticket sales, at least for half of his program. I would classify his
programs at or below the 50% percentile on the "adventurous" scale
compared to his peers.

I'm not trying to bash Pollini per se or to convince anyone who likes
him that they shouldn't. I'm just making the case that for a musician
with such an ostensibly major career over a considerable period of
time, his legacy is - and will continue to be - surprisingly small.

DF

[bassppn]

> incredible purity and technical clarity in the 60s and 70s.- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

I heard him in the 60s and there was nothing about his playing that i
found interesting, (but of course that was just one concert)

AB

[pianomaven]

Yes. We know. And for fifty years you have been peddling the same
impressions as though they were based on fresh experiences.

Get thee to a nunnery.

TD

[bassppn]

> TD- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

which one do you belong to?

AB

[Tim Haricots]

On Feb 25, 11:48 pm, David Fox <davidfox2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> 100 pianists each got three votes.  Pollini didn't get any, and
> Ashkenazy didn't get any votes either, though he was one of the
> pianists included in the polling sample.  That doesn't mean that
> Pollini and Ashkenazy are considered worthless or even substandard by
> their colleagues.  It only means that they didn't make anybody's Top 3
> in 100 tries.
>
> Clearly Pollini is worthy of some respect for the reasons I've written
> previously.  I don't doubt that he is well-regarded by a good many of
> his colleagues, but when push comes to shove he didn't make anybody's
> short list.   What this suggests to me is that his legacy, barring
> some revisionist resurgence, is likelier to fade than to grow as his
> career winds down.  I'd draw a parallel to Georg Solti who had a huge
> commercial impact for several decades, recorded and sold a ton of LPs/
> CD's,  and had some undeniable artistic triumphs (most notably his
> Ring Cycle), but whose reputation in the decade since his death has
> fallen dramatically. You don't hear many young conductors citing Solti
> as a major influence and/or role model.  Ashkenazy recorded
> practically everything for the piano.  Some of his recordings are
> quite good, but he is "first choice" in virtually nothing.  I don't
> expect to hear many interviews by young pianists citing Ashkenazy as a
> major influence.

>> DF- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

David,

Thanks for your interesting comments. I see what you mean re
Ashkenazy, although I do not agree. It is maybe true that he has been
somewhat "forgotten" since he doesn't play recitals any more. I also
agree that he recorded a lot of CD's and that not all of them are
equally "good" (partly due to the agressive miking of Decca. I always
thought that was according to Ashkenazy's wish, but I once interviewd
him and he seemed genuinely surprised about my comment that his CD's
sometimes sound "slightly agressive" (I didn't want to be too explicit
about it..)).

I do not agree when you say that he was "virtually no first choice in
anything". It really is a pity when people say this and I think this
assessment doesn't do Ashkenazy justice. To my surprise he is not
often quoted as someone with a "virtuosic technique", unlike Horowitz,
Cziffra, Argerich. It's true that Ashkenazy's technique was never a
"flashy" one, but he had absolutely everything in the 50's, 60's and
early 70's. Of course, all of this is a matter of taste, but for me
his recordings of Bach's D-minor concerto BWV 1052, Mozart's
Jeunehomme concerto with Kertesz, Mozart's sonatas K 310, 576 and
Rondo K 511 as well as his 2-piano sonata with Frager, Schumann's
Kreisleriana from 1972, Schubert's sonatas D 664 and 784,
Rachmaninov's concertos nos 2 and 3 (with Kondrashin and Fistoulari)
are definitely "first choices". I could think of musicians who played
these pieces equally well, but I can't think of pianists who did them
"better". And maybe the best exemple of Ashkenazy's technique: Feux
Follets in 1970, I can only think of Richter and Kissin. Or Liszt's
1st Mephisto waltz, where almost any pianist I have heard (live and on
record) slows down in the stretta section with the leaps in octaves
and where Ashkenazy plays in tempo. A really unbelievable achievement
imho. I heard a live recording from New York from the 70's where he
played it with exactly the same perfection!

I know he has been conducting a lot in the last 20 years. The last
time I heard him in 2001. He was supposed to play Gaspard de la nuit
and someone announced that he had had an accident with his left hand
the day before, but that he would play "everything". I was slightly
sceptical, but his playing was as good as anyone's, again I couldn't
think of any youngster who would have outplayed him!

TH

[pianomaven]

The one you're NOT going to.

TD

[O]

In article
<f952ea83-ef88-40d5...@s7g2000vby.googlegroups.com>, Tim

To further credit Ashkenazy, I'd recommend the recording of the
Rachmaninoff Suites he did with Previn, by far my favorite recording of
them. His London recording of the Etudes is still an outstanding
recording, and I haven't heard it eclipsed (in my limited hearings,
anyway). I have his mono Etudes somewhere and they're on my list of
things to listen to soon.

-Owen

P.S. While some do like them, I don't really care for his recordings
of the Brahms concerti he made for Joyce Hatto.

-O

[Dufus]

>On Feb 26, 10:41 am, O <ow...@denofinequityx.com> wrote:
> P.S.  While some do like them, I don't really care for his recordings
> of the Brahms concerti he made for Joyce Hatto.
>

B-C and Joyce apparently liked them !

I am very fond of his early 80's (?) Beethoven piano sonatas "Tempest"
and Op.109, his 109 perhaps my fav version.

Dufus

[David Fox]

Tim,

Thanks for writing the above. You are right about many of the
Ashkenazy recordings you highlighted - they are excellent. This
morning I've been re-listening to a number of them - the Bach 1052,
Mozart 9, the Mephisto Waltz from the Russian Pianists collection. He
was at one time an amazing pianist and a great musician. If he is
partially forgotten by the current generation of performers, it is
their loss.

I remember reading a magazine profile of Kissin several years ago. It
was done while he was working on some collaboration with Ashkenazy. I
was startled at some of the honesty in the article. Kissin clearly
liked and respected Ashkenazy, but he mentioned that he had recently
gone to an Ashkenazy piano recital and he was disappointed at
Ashkenazy's lack of engagement. What was even more surprising was
that Ashkenazy didn't disagree with Kissin's comments. I heard
Ashkenazy in recital once in the early 1980's and my experience was
very similar to Kissin's.

This has been an undercurrent in Ashkenazy's career for a while. It
seemed that he started to epically broaden his piano repertoire and
then branch out to conducting as an effort to stave off boredom.
Perhaps he should have just pulled back and performed/recorded less.
Who knows. Perhaps if he had withdrawn from musical life in the early
1970's there would be a rabid cult about him and he'd be enshrined as
one of the all-time greats. Reputations are funny things. It doen't
seem fair that an excellent body of work can be elevated or denigrated
based on the subsequent output of an artist, but life is not always
fair.

Again, thanks for taking the time to write what you did. Postings
like yours give me hope for this newsgroup.

DF

[David Fox]

n
>
> P.S.  While some do like them, I don't really care for his recordings
> of the Brahms concerti he made for Joyce Hatto.
>
> -O

I still can't believe that Barringon-Fraud lifted this recording of
Brahms PC2 and got away with it. It's identity didn't get revealed
until the entire scam collapsed. It's not so much that Ashkenazy
would be instantly recognizable, but passing the VPO - arguably the
most identifiable orchestra ever recorded - off as a pickup
orchestra? Amazing. Unlike much of the solo Hatto catalog, he didn't
digitally doctor the orchestral collaborations at all.

DF

[JohnGavin]

I heard Ashkenazy back in the 60s and 70s in recital. A truly
memorable Wanderer Fantasy was on the one of the programs. No
question that he was (is) a huge talent. I always get a feeling too
of liking him in interviews - straightforward, and down to earth.
I was told that he is a real workaholic - something that anyone can
deduce by his sheer output - both pianistic and orchestral. But I
have reservations about his playing itself. I've always noticed his
tendency to bang unreservedly. It's not only the London/Decca
engineering - it's Ashkenazy. In videos you see time and time again a
sort of lunging at the keys - it reminds me of a boxer. So perhaps
others don't mind this - it's a real obstacle for me.



So for me, he is a near- contender as one of the great pianists, but
he misses - particularly when compared to Richter or Gilels.

[bassppn]

> he misses - particularly when compared to Richter or Gilels.- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

yes, the banging is also something I noticed years ago

AB

[Steve Emerson]

In article
<f952ea83-ef88-40d5...@s7g2000vby.googlegroups.com>,
Tim Haricots <fees...@gmail.com> wrote:

Nice post. I'm a great devoté of his Kreisleriana too -- most of it
showing a very nice tone, if you listen to an LP. The Humoreske is
equally excellent, one of the few to accurately register the feeling of
hysteria that comes across in Schumann's own descriptions of the work.

I'm surprised you don't mention his Chopin etudes, both sets being
absolute classics in my opinion.

The Hammerklavier he recorded around 1967, possibly never reissued, is
also a strong contender.

SE.

[bassppn]

On Feb 26, 9:45 pm, Steve Emerson <eme...@n-n-nospamsonic.net> wrote:
> In article
> <f952ea83-ef88-40d5-b36e-9b501cce3...@s7g2000vby.googlegroups.com>,

> SE.- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

I remember that recording very well.......... one of the worst pianos
I have ever heard. Perhaps that is why it has not been reissued

AB

[mandryka]

Listen to this wonderful duet with Barenboim Is it on CD?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tgTS4Sq_OI&feature=player_embedded

I like quite a lot of his early Mozart concerto records -- the PC 6
with Isserstedt and the PC 8 and 9 with Kertesz. I should add that I
haven't heard the PC 20 with Isserstedt, but would very much like to.
The 1967 record of Mozart solo music on Decca was interesting, with a
good K448 with Malcolm Frager, and a good K310 too.

I like the early etudes too. I once compared the early and later
recordings etudes CDs. The latter are sweeter, and maybe there's some
rigidity starting to set in. In 10/5 for example.

[mandryka]

Duet . . . I meant Concerto for two pianos of course

[pianomaven]

Rule of thumb: with VA the earlier the better.

TD

[JohnGavin]

I remember that Hammerklavier as well. I liked it very much. Very
dynamic and suggestive of orchestral sonorities.
It probably wasn't reissued because Ashkenazy re-recorded it as part
of his complete set.

[mandryka]

I forgot to say that in his solo Beethoven I think the Op 27/1 is
outstanding. This is one of my favourite pieces of piano music and
Ashkenazy joins Arrau (live) and Andrea Lucchesini and Backhaus
(mono ) and Gould as one of my favourite performances of it.

[Steve Emerson]

In article
<f3ad085b-1dc5-43b1...@a15g2000yqf.googlegroups.com>,

JohnGavin <dag...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I remember that Hammerklavier as well. I liked it very much. Very
> dynamic and suggestive of orchestral sonorities.
> It probably wasn't reissued because Ashkenazy re-recorded it as part
> of his complete set.

Exactly. In fact I think he re-did it twice, with at least one of them
being DDD.

The below is, I believe, #3.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00000421B/

SE.

[Steve Emerson]

In article
<9c94787c-72a5-431d...@s9g2000yqj.googlegroups.com>,

But like a lot of such rules, it works only spottily. The Russian Disc
Chopin Ballades were the most fiery and pretty consistently interesting,
but the 1960s Decca set was very different interpretively and often
better considered. He made a beautiful recording of Schubert's
penultimate sonata as recently as 1997.

SE.

[pianomaven]

On Feb 27, 1:51 pm, Steve Emerson <eme...@n-n-nospamsonic.net> wrote:
> In article

> <9c94787c-72a5-431d-bed3-31df99466...@s9g2000yqj.googlegroups.com>,

The exception proves the law, Steve.

The "Russian Disc" would of necessity be an early reading, no?
Ashkenazy has been under an exclusive Decca contract through most of
his career, at least for solo piano recordings.

In any event, I am not sure I even know of this disc.

TD

[Al Eisner]

On Thu, 23 Feb 2012, Dufus wrote:

>> On Feb 23, 6:39 pm, Randy Lane <randy.l...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> But surely your discovery is enogh to jolt you into buying this set,
>> especially at the current asking prices:
>
> I'd heard some before, but not really focused until lately as, like
> you, I have several sets already.
>
> Plus I spent the $600 earlier this year ; mostly on cheap cabernet to
> combat GOP-itis.

But you can listen to a recording many times. You can only drink a bottle
of cabernet but once. [Not that I'm a fan of Cziffra....]
--

Al Eisner

[Tim Haricots]

> AB- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

The early Hammerklavier HAS been issued on Eloquence, not long ago!
Don't remember "the worst piano ever" though.

TH

[Tim Haricots]

On Feb 27, 3:45 am, Steve Emerson <eme...@n-n-nospamsonic.net> wrote:
> Nice post. I'm a great devoté of his Kreisleriana too -- most of it
> showing a very nice tone, if you listen to an LP. The Humoreske is
> equally excellent, one of the few to accurately register the feeling of
> hysteria that comes across in Schumann's own descriptions of the work.
>
> I'm surprised you don't mention his Chopin etudes, both sets being
> absolute classics in my opinion.
>
> The Hammerklavier he recorded around 1967, possibly never reissued, is
> also a strong contender.
>

> SE.- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

Hi Steve,

Couldn't agree more re the early Chopin-Etudes! I obviously wasn't
complete, because there are many Ashkenazy-recordings like. I realized
afterwards that I should have mentioned these, they are not only
vintage Ashkenazy, but simply one of the greatest (and most poetic)
renditions of the Etudes!

TH

[Dufus]

Good point, Al. But at $600, that's 100 bottles of 6 -buck Chuck !
So, not an easy decision. I'm sure Cziffra himself would agree.

Fortunately, I obtained a cheaper set of the Cziffra Chopin Etudes. So
I can have my Chuck, and Cziffra it,too.

Dufus

[Tim Haricots]

> DF- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Hi David,

Again thanks for your kind words and interesting comments. I am afraid
this is again off-topic (we probably should discuss this privately),
but since Pollini and Ashkenazy were brought up in this topic about
Cziffra, I would like to react to your last message.
It is very interesting you brought up Kissin in relation to Ashkenazy.
As per coincidence, I heard Kissin last night in Amsterdam and was
once again very disappointed. I wrote "once again" since he has
disappointed me many times. Actually, what TD wrote about Ashkenazy
"the earlier the better" also applies to Kissin imho. For me, his best
performances were probably the Chopin concertos he recorded at age 11.
I was hugely impressed by his first recital in the early 90'sm, but as
of the mid 90's something started to change. The playing became even
more virtuosic, but also more "exterior" ( I can't really find the
word, maybe "extravert"?). And his tone became louder and as far as I
am concerned, uglier. He played a lot of times in Amsterdam and
almost every time I was put off by his sound, that was/is huge, but
often downright ugly. Last night's concert was no exception: the first
two movements of the Moonlight sonata were nicely done, but the last
movement was again too much for my taste. The Barber sonata (a work I
didn't find easy to deal with on first hearing) was mainly loud,
although stunningly played. The Chopin 3rd sonata failed to move me,
it left me completely cold.

Now, back to Ashkenazy, you wrote that Kissin was disappointed by the
former's lack of engagement, but if I think back of my own
experiences, I remember that Ashkenazy never left me disappointed. On
the contrary, I found him often more compelling live than on records,
also in the 90's and remember impressive renditions of Brahms's 3rd
Sonata (such a pity it was not recorded live!) and Handel Variations,
Schumann's Kreisleriana, Ravel's Gaspard de la Nuit, Beethoven opus
110 and 111. I had the feeling that you were immediately captivated by
his way of communicating with the audience, something I cruelly missed
last night with Kissin. He was brillant, but it was cold fire. It was
such a strange phenomenon: to listen to a first class pianist (at
least technically speaking) and not having been touched for a
second...

TH

[Steve Emerson]

In article
<358347ca-3113-4b5f...@q12g2000yqg.googlegroups.com>,
pianomaven <1pian...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > > Rule of thumb: with VA [Ashkenazy] the earlier the better.

> >
> > But like a lot of such rules, it works only spottily. The Russian Disc
> > Chopin Ballades were the most fiery and pretty consistently interesting,
> > but the 1960s Decca set was very different interpretively and often
> > better considered. He made a beautiful recording of Schubert's
> > penultimate sonata as recently as 1997.
>
> The exception proves the law, Steve.
>
> The "Russian Disc" would of necessity be an early reading, no?

Yes, that's what I meant. Earlyish -- June 9, 1963, according to the
booklet. Live in the Large Hall of the Moscow Conservatory.

> Ashkenazy has been under an exclusive Decca contract through most of
> his career, at least for solo piano recordings.
>
> In any event, I am not sure I even know of this disc.

Worth tracking down. A 1993 issue - RD CD 11-208.

Beethoven Op 31/3
Chopin Four Ballades
Debussy l'Isle joyeuse, Serenade interrompue, Clair de lune

SE.

[Kip Williams]

Tim Haricots wrote:
> On Feb 27, 3:45 am, Steve Emerson<eme...@n-n-nospamsonic.net> wrote:

>> I'm surprised you don't mention his Chopin etudes, both sets being
>> absolute classics in my opinion.
>

> Couldn't agree more re the early Chopin-Etudes! I obviously wasn't
> complete, because there are many Ashkenazy-recordings like. I realized
> afterwards that I should have mentioned these, they are not only
> vintage Ashkenazy, but simply one of the greatest (and most poetic)
> renditions of the Etudes!

I have Ashkenazy's opus 10 and opus 25 on Everest, and was so hugely
disappointed by the lackluster, perfunctory getting-through-the-notes
performance that I disliked the performer for years.

What's the story on this LP? Is it actually somebody other than
Ashkenazy playing? I've seen mislabeled albums before.


Kip W

[Steve Emerson]

In article
<9666e61c-fc29-436f...@z31g2000vbt.googlegroups.com>,

> > I remember that recording very well.......... one of the worst pianos
> > I have ever heard. Perhaps that is why it has not been reissued
> >
>

> The early Hammerklavier HAS been issued on Eloquence, not long ago!
> Don't remember "the worst piano ever" though.

Interesting, thanks for the alert! 1967, right here:

http://www.buywell.com/cgi-bin/buywellic2/14988.html

From the downloadable new liner notes (Distler):

"However, the present
recording met with near-unanimous critical
praise. Alan Rich, writing for New York
magazine in 1968, claimed Ashkenazy, for him
to be Śthe most totally satisfying pianist of his
generation. Even in this immense and sprawling
score he succeeds (as few have done) inmaking
every note a moment of passage, every phrase
an urging toward the nextą. In High Fidelity,
Harris Goldsmith acknowledged Ashkenazyąs
extraordinary technical command and
willingness to rough up the musicąs surface
when necessary. He also took the pianist to task
concerning tempi slower than Beethovenąs
controversially brisk yet plausible metronome
markings.
"Comparison of both Ashkenazy Decca
ŚHammerklavierą recordings reveal similar
conceptions, but with differences in detail. For
starters, the 1967 engineeringąs closer
microphone placement creates sharper aural
delineation than the resonant 1980 ambience.
1967ąs first movement cadential ritardandi
emerge more simply thirteen years later, with the
Scherzoąs motto rhythm a little looser and more
playful. Yet the earlier Andante sostenuto
benefits from more spontaneous animation and
inflection, while Ashkenazy articulates the
fugueąs gnarlier sequences more incisively in
1967, albeit without 1980ąs more finely tuned
voice leading. In any event, Ashkenazyąs first
ŚHammerklavierą still commands attention in a
crowded field, and easily stands timeąs cruel test."

SE.

[td]

I heard Ashkenazy perform the 24 Etudes in 1963 in Toronto. It was
fabulous. He played the études as though they were one huge canvas.
Tone was liquid. Technique flawless.

A trifle bland I would add, although at that time I was less
particular. His early set has many good things as I recall, but the
sound is bad, regardless of the source. Moreover they seem inhibited
to me today. Not the overtly romantic works this music represents when
played really well.

Anievas is consistently satisfying, Pollini. consistently
intimidating, Freire very special, indeed, unique because of his
personal rubato. And so on. Not sure Ahkenazy's Decca isn't better
than the earlier Melodiya. Swings and roundabouts.

TD

[td]

On Feb 27, 4:43 pm, Steve Emerson <eme...@n-n-nospamsonic.net> wrote:
> In article

> <358347ca-3113-4b5f-a044-41cc848bf...@q12g2000yqg.googlegroups.com>,

I have ordered it, Steve.

Thanks for the info. Looking forward to more early VA.

Incidentally, while in Winnipeg in the 1970s VA was practising at a
friend's home the Debussy Préludes for a recording of all 24. Alas
this never came to be. Ditto Kovacevich's Rach 3.

TD

[Steve Emerson]

In article <3TS2r.22409$rS.1...@newsfe15.iad>,

Do you have a catalog number? Is there a date? Needless to say, the
description doesn't sound to me like either set.

The early set was recorded in 1959 and 1960 by Melodiya. It's mono.
Among other things, it appeared on a Saga LP carrying a 1973 date. Not
sure what other LP issues there are.

The second set was recorded in the UK and first appeared on LP from
Decca/London in 1975.

This is the record with liner notes recounting the story that George
Shearing decided to give up music and sell his piano after hearing
Ashkenazy play the etudes.

SE.

[bassppn]

> TD- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

have the Anievas. nothing fancy or exotic but very clear, effortless
playing. Very natural technqiue.......

AB

[Kip Williams]

Everest 3387 (per the sleeve — SDBR 3387 on the label), Copyright 1976.
I don't see the word "stereo" anywhere on it.

I bought the LP because my LP of Van Cliburn playing Chopin favorites
had a smashing version of the 'Revolutionary' Etude that was scratched
or noisy or something, so I went right to that one and was summarily
disappointed.

This being Everest, I don't expect it to have been the 1975 recording.
But who knows? Maybe it isn't even Vladimir.


Kip W

[Al Eisner]

On Fri, 24 Feb 2012, Dufus wrote:

>> On Feb 23, 9:49 pm, Steve Emerson <eme...@n-n-nospamsonic.net> wrote:
>> There are a number of far preferable sets, however, IMO, and since I
>> remember your getting around to Cortot's not all that long ago, one of
>> them ought to come first, again IMO. Sokolov's Op 25, as mentioned
>> already, would be my first stop -- and/or Grigory Ginsburg's Op 25, via
>
> I do have Cortot , and Fiorentino, Sokolov, Anda ( the Salzburg
> recital), Badura-Skoda's 1956 Westminster lp, Browning,Backhaus, maybe
> another, individual Rubinstein,Richter,etc. Cziffra is different from
> those.
>
> I understand from David Fox that young Trifonov is to play both sets
> live at Verbier this Summer . Op.25 was a big work for him last year
> at the Rubinstein and Tchaikovsky competitions.

Trifonov is doing Op. 10 in San Francisco tomorrow, and I'd guess at other
stops on his current tour.
--

Al Eisner

[Steve Emerson]

In article <DBV2r.14558$kq7....@newsfe10.iad>,

Kip Williams <mrk...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Steve Emerson wrote:
> > In article<3TS2r.22409$rS.1...@newsfe15.iad>,
> > Kip Williams<mrk...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> I have Ashkenazy's opus 10 and opus 25 on Everest, and was so hugely
> >> disappointed by the lackluster, perfunctory getting-through-the-notes
> >> performance that I disliked the performer for years.
> >>
> >> What's the story on this LP? Is it actually somebody other than
> >> Ashkenazy playing? I've seen mislabeled albums before.
> >
> > Do you have a catalog number? Is there a date? Needless to say, the
> > description doesn't sound to me like either set.
> >
> > The early set was recorded in 1959 and 1960 by Melodiya. It's mono.
> > Among other things, it appeared on a Saga LP carrying a 1973 date. Not
> > sure what other LP issues there are.
> >
> > The second set was recorded in the UK and first appeared on LP from
> > Decca/London in 1975.
> >
> > This is the record with liner notes recounting the story that George
> > Shearing decided to give up music and sell his piano after hearing
> > Ashkenazy play the etudes.
>

> Everest 3387 (per the sleeve ã SDBR 3387 on the label), Copyright 1976.

> I don't see the word "stereo" anywhere on it.
>
> I bought the LP because my LP of Van Cliburn playing Chopin favorites
> had a smashing version of the 'Revolutionary' Etude that was scratched
> or noisy or something, so I went right to that one and was summarily
> disappointed.
>
> This being Everest, I don't expect it to have been the 1975 recording.

No.

> But who knows? Maybe it isn't even Vladimir.

We can settle it -- here's the Melodiya Revolutionary. Very small file.
Please let us know.

http://www.4shared.com/mp3/ubJGZdyR/AshkOp10-xii1959.html

BTW, Cliburn doesn't seem to think his Revolutionary is his favorite
Chopin anymore; it doesn't appear on the CD of that name. OTOH there is
a terrific version of the Op 49 Fantasy.

SE.

[Kip Williams]

Steve Emerson wrote:
> In article<DBV2r.14558$kq7....@newsfe10.iad>,

Listening to it now. Fast but sounds like he doesn't really want to get
involved. It could be the same performance, but listening to an LP
involves firing up a computer I seldom use, so I'll have to leave that
for tomorrow.

> BTW, Cliburn doesn't seem to think his Revolutionary is his favorite
> Chopin anymore; it doesn't appear on the CD of that name. OTOH there is
> a terrific version of the Op 49 Fantasy.

Ah. I just looked, and the Cliburn was "Chopin's Greatest Hits," so he
might not have liked it in the first place — maybe he was just going by
Billboard numbers.


Kip W

[Steve Emerson]

In article <uJY2r.14848$np3....@newsfe05.iad>,

Kip Williams <mrk...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Steve Emerson wrote:
> > In article<DBV2r.14558$kq7....@newsfe10.iad>,
> > Kip Williams<mrk...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> But who knows? Maybe it isn't even Vladimir.
> >
> > We can settle it -- here's the Melodiya Revolutionary. Very small file.
> > Please let us know.
> >
> > http://www.4shared.com/mp3/ubJGZdyR/AshkOp10-xii1959.html
>
> Listening to it now. Fast but sounds like he doesn't really want to get
> involved.

Wow, really. Quite the opposite, to my ears. (Of course, I've listened
to the whole thing....)

> It could be the same performance, but listening to an LP
> involves firing up a computer I seldom use,

I will refrain from comment.

> so I'll have to leave that for tomorrow.

OK.

SE.

> > BTW, Cliburn doesn't seem to think his Revolutionary is his favorite
> > Chopin anymore; it doesn't appear on the CD of that name. OTOH there is
> > a terrific version of the Op 49 Fantasy.
>
> Ah. I just looked, and the Cliburn was "Chopin's Greatest Hits," so he

> might not have liked it in the first place ã maybe he was just going by
> Billboard numbers.
>
>
> Kip W

[td]

On Feb 27, 5:35 pm, Steve Emerson <eme...@n-n-nospamsonic.net> wrote:
> In article <3TS2r.22409$rS.19...@newsfe15.iad>,

>  Kip Williams <mrk...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Tim Haricots wrote:
> > > On Feb 27, 3:45 am, Steve Emerson<eme...@n-n-nospamsonic.net>  wrote:
>
> > >> I'm surprised you don't mention his Chopin etudes, both sets being
> > >> absolute classics in my opinion.
>
> > > Couldn't agree more re the early Chopin-Etudes! I obviously wasn't
> > > complete, because there are many Ashkenazy-recordings like. I realized
> > > afterwards that I should have mentioned these, they are not only
> > > vintage Ashkenazy, but simply one of the greatest (and most poetic)
> > > renditions of the Etudes!
>
> > I have Ashkenazy's opus 10 and opus 25 on Everest, and was so hugely
> > disappointed by the lackluster, perfunctory getting-through-the-notes
> > performance that I disliked the performer for years.
>
> > What's the story on this LP? Is it actually somebody other than
> > Ashkenazy playing? I've seen mislabeled albums before.
>
> Do you have a catalog number? Is there a date? Needless to say, the
> description doesn't sound to me like either set.

That Everest LP is the early Melodiya version in appalling sound.
Forget it.

Everest had fallen on hard times by then. Hardly Bert Whytes' old
home.

TD

[Kip Williams]

Steve Emerson wrote:
> In article<uJY2r.14848$np3....@newsfe05.iad>,

> Kip Williams<mrk...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Steve Emerson wrote:
>>> In article<DBV2r.14558$kq7....@newsfe10.iad>,
>>> Kip Williams<mrk...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> But who knows? Maybe it isn't even Vladimir.
>>>
>>> We can settle it -- here's the Melodiya Revolutionary. Very small file.
>>> Please let us know.
>>>
>>> http://www.4shared.com/mp3/ubJGZdyR/AshkOp10-xii1959.html
>>
>> Listening to it now. Fast but sounds like he doesn't really want to get
>> involved.
>
> Wow, really. Quite the opposite, to my ears. (Of course, I've listened
> to the whole thing....)

I'd listened to the whole thing by the time I sent the message, but
heard nothing to make me revise what I'd written.

I'm now listening to yours again, having re-listened to mine. The sound
on yours has less of a jangly edge, and there is some degree — not a
lot, but some — of dynamics on yours. My LP has little dynamic range,
with distortion being the only indicator that a note was played loud. It
has some audio quality as if the piano had been left in its crate for
the recording, with the mike inside.

It's hard for me to say if they are the same performance. I'd sooner
listen to your recording again, because it's less jagged.

In Van Cliburn's recording, the right hand melody and chords are louder
than the left hand's running figures. The melody and chords build to
climaxes, playing louder where Chopin indicated to, and softer as
requested. There is a sense of distinction, of drama. A sense that some
notes are actually more important than others. This was what I was
hoping for when I carried Everest 3387 two blocks from the record store
to my house. And there's the catastrophically large click near the end,
which my turntable at the time might have actually skipped on.

Well, hell, now that the Vaio is all fired up (and working today), I
might just go ahead and assimilate the Cliburn LP. I can take that pop
out and have my favorite Revolutionary Etude on my iPod again.

For the record, I've always been satisfied with Ashkenazy's "Symphonic
Etudes," even though I'd have gone with Casadesus if he'd included the
posthumous ones. I probably listened to Vladimir's performance four or
five score times before replacing it in rotation with Schiff's reading.


Kip W

[Tim Haricots]

> TD- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

No, there is no official recording of the Debussy preludes, I do have
a live recording though where he plays book 2 (New York, 1970 I
believe). He also plays the Alla Turca Sonata by Mozart, which he
hasn't recorded commercially either.

TH

[pianomaven]

It was in the early 1970s when he was scheduled to record both books.

It never happened, I guess, although who knows if he made one and
never approved it. By that time his pianism had taken on a punchy
quality which would have not been good for Debussy in any event. That,
together with Decca's woeful recording of solo piano, would have
produced disastrous results, I think.

I have always thought that Ashkenazy would have had a different career
- and sound - had he recorded for Philips or EMI instead of Decca. The
Decca amplified xylophone sound killed most pianists.

TD

[Steve Emerson]

In article <RL53r.16652$VR6....@newsfe14.iad>,
Kip Williams <mrk...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Ashkenazy's Melodiya Op. 10 No. 12.]

> >> Listening to it now. Fast but sounds like he doesn't really want to get
> >> involved.
> >
> > Wow, really. Quite the opposite, to my ears. (Of course, I've listened
> > to the whole thing....)
>
> I'd listened to the whole thing by the time I sent the message, but
> heard nothing to make me revise what I'd written.
>
> I'm now listening to yours again, having re-listened to mine. The sound
> on yours has less of a jangly edge, and there is some degree ‹ not a
> lot, but some ‹ of dynamics on yours. My LP has little dynamic range,
> with distortion being the only indicator that a note was played loud. It
> has some audio quality as if the piano had been left in its crate for
> the recording, with the mike inside.

The sound sucks on the Melodiya, even when it isn't an MP3. As you say,
differentiation of dynamics suffers; although it's there. The last thing
this needs is worsening by a label doing things on the cheap (which goes
for my Saga LP too).

> It's hard for me to say if they are the same performance.

Well, I trust TD when he says that it is.

> I'd sooner
> listen to your recording again, because it's less jagged.
>
> In Van Cliburn's recording, the right hand melody and chords are louder
> than the left hand's running figures. The melody and chords build to
> climaxes, playing louder where Chopin indicated to, and softer as
> requested. There is a sense of distinction, of drama. A sense that some
> notes are actually more important than others.

Ashkenazy's is not the last word, and it's certainly not my favorite
performance of the work, nor is he anywhere close to my pantheon of
pianists. But the idea that in his Revolutionary, he doesn't make some
notes more important than others, that he plays as if he's not involved,
that the left hand is just as loud as the right hand, that there are no
climaxes -- no, I don't buy any of that.

His pace and drive are extraordinary, and like everybody else, he
strikes his own balance between that and differentiation of internal
events. As I listened to portions of a dozen or so recordings this
morning, it crossed my mind that any two experienced listeners, hearing
any noteworthy recording, are not going to agree as to whether there's
the right amount of either of those two things. (FWIW, there's much more
internal differentiation in his later recording, which also happens to
be recorded with more detail.)

> This was what I was
> hoping for when I carried Everest 3387 two blocks from the record store
> to my house. And there's the catastrophically large click near the end,
> which my turntable at the time might have actually skipped on.
>
> Well, hell, now that the Vaio is all fired up (and working today), I
> might just go ahead and assimilate the Cliburn LP. I can take that pop
> out and have my favorite Revolutionary Etude on my iPod again.
>
> For the record, I've always been satisfied with Ashkenazy's "Symphonic
> Etudes," even though I'd have gone with Casadesus if he'd included the
> posthumous ones. I probably listened to Vladimir's performance four or
> five score times before replacing it in rotation with Schiff's reading.

Schiff? Try Richter, Sofronitsky, Gilels, Cherkassky.

SE.

[JohnGavin]

On Feb 28, 1:11 pm, Steve Emerson <eme...@n-n-nospamsonic.net> wrote:
> In article <RL53r.16652$VR6.7...@newsfe14.iad>,

Pertaining to a recent discussion on Pollini, I think his Symphonic
Etudes are outstanding - intensely lyrical would be my description -
with a wonderful sense of tension that sustains the piece from
beginning to end.

[pianomaven]

On Feb 28, 4:11 pm, Steve Emerson <eme...@n-n-nospamsonic.net> wrote:
> In article <RL53r.16652$VR6.7...@newsfe14.iad>,

I wonder if you have ever heard Steven de Groote's recording for DG.
There are some magical things in that performance I have never heard
equalled by anyone, even by the Russians. Only on LP in their
"Concours" series. Live from Munich, I think.

And then there's Myra Hess, of course. Nobody seems to speak of her,
but she was a wonderful musician and pianist. Somehow the British have
abandoned her. I am waiting for APR to do a "complete" box of her old
recordings. And then there are all those live things. The Etudes are
EMI recordings on tape, naturally, from the late 1950s. Monaural.

TD

[pianomaven]

His piano is probably out of tune, John, and anyway, he can't play a
chord evenly and has no tone. LOL.

TD