Suggestions for Beethoven´s piano concertos
João Baptista
Hi there
I´m thinking of buying a full set of Beethoven´s Piano Concertos. I´ve
looked in some CD stores, and I´m considering the sets:
1 - Murray Perahya/Haytink at Sony
2 - Claudio Arrau/Davies at Philips
Have anyone heard them? What do you think of them? Any other alternatives?
Thanks in advance for your help
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------
João Pedro Baptista
Lisboa - Portugal
Simon Roberts
João Baptista (JBat...@mail.EUnet.pt) wrote:
: Hi there
: I´m thinking of buying a full set of Beethoven´s Piano Concertos. I´ve
: looked in some CD stores, and I´m considering the sets:
: 1 - Murray Perahya/Haytink at Sony
: 2 - Claudio Arrau/Davies at Philips
: Have anyone heard them? What do you think of them? Any other alternatives?
: Thanks in advance for your help
Perahia is gentle and pretty and Mozartean in the (bad) old Dresden Doll
sense which just won't go away in some quarters; he finally comes to life
in the finale of 5, but by then it's too late (of course, you may like
that sort of thing; if so, don't hesitate). Haitink's accompaniments are
OK, but it hardly matters. Arrau/Davis is too late for Arrau; slow,
underaminated, utterly devoid of what I think of as Beethovenian fire,
wit, etc. You can do much better for much less money; my choice for a
complete set would probably be Kovacevich/Davis on Philips or conducting
himself on EMI (I think he combines the various masculine and feminine
aspects of the music better than any in a complete set); I also admire
Kuerti/Davis for similar reasons; Fleisher/Szell on Sony is fairly
impressive in its rather gruff, straightforward way. The only recent set
that impresses me is, much to my surprise, Schiff/Haitink: Haitink's
accompaniments are magnificent, and Schiff is far more imaginative (great
left hand work in 1 and 2) and Beethovenian than I would have expected.
If you are open to mono, there's a thrilling set of live performances by
Gilels/Sanderling on Multisonic (far more spontaneous than his other
recordings); and of course there's always Schnabel/Sargent. There are, of
course, various thrilling one-off performances, such as
Michelangeli/Freccia in 5, but that's getting rather off-topic, I suppose.
There's probably no recommendable HIP set available at the moment, but
given the terms of your question I suspect that's rather off-topic too....
Simon
Tag Gallagher
Berkshire has Josef Hofmann playing 4 and 5.
Michael Subotin
Simon Roberts wrote:
<...>
> If you are open to mono, there's a thrilling set of live performances by
> Gilels/Sanderling on Multisonic (far more spontaneous than his other
> recordings); and of course there's always Schnabel/Sargent.<...>
Speaking of... I just noticed that BMG has Schnabel/Stock in 4 and 5.
Is this recommendable to a new Schnabel convert?
Thanks,
Michael
--
E-mail: mvsst3+@pitt{DOT}edu Replace {DOT} with a dot
john harkness
John Harkness writes:
Yes, very much so -- the sound is far better than his early 30s cycle,
and the Fourth was always, I think, Schnabel's best Concerto. There's
also a very funny article, BTW, by Glenn Gould, about studying this
recording prior to playing it at his debut and how, into adulthood, he
could never appreciate a recording of the fourth that did not sound as
if it were recorded in four minute takes.
John
Rascalj
My vote would be as follows:
1 & 2: Vogt/Rattle (a clear first choice)
3 Serkin/Bernstein
4 Gilels/Ludwig
5 Kovacevich w/Australian Chamber Orch.
For HIP, The Gardiner 1 & 2 is thrilling.
Joel Warren Lidz, Ph.D.
Department of Philosophy
Bentley College
Waltham, MA 02154
Donald Patterson
João Baptista wrote:
>
> Hi there
>
> I´m thinking of buying a full set of Beethoven´s Piano Concertos. I´ve
> looked in some CD stores, and I´m considering the sets:
>
> 1 - Murray Perahya/Haytink at Sony
> 2 - Claudio Arrau/Davies at Philips
>
> Have anyone heard them? What do you think of them? Any other alternatives?
> Thanks in advance for your help
If you are to own only one, an excellent choice
is Fleischer/Szell on Sony. These are refined,
uneccentric performances that bristle with
energy. The 4th displays an elegance that
often eludes many interpreters. The price is
right, too. The sound, even if it does belie
its age, is fine.
--
Don Patterson <don...@erols.com>
Arranger
Professional Music Copyist
Asst. Principal Trombone
"The President's Own"
United States Marine Band
Visit the U.S. Marine Band website
http://www.marineband.hqmc.usmc.mil
The views expressed are my own and in no way
reflect those of the U.S. Marine Band or the U.S.
Marine Corp.
Martha Oppenheim
João Baptista wrote:
>
> Hi there
>
> I´m thinking of buying a full set of Beethoven´s Piano Concertos. I´ve
> looked in some CD stores, and I´m considering the sets:
>
> 1 - Murray Perahya/Haytink at Sony
> 2 - Claudio Arrau/Davies at Philips
>
> Have anyone heard them? What do you think of them? Any other alternatives?
> Thanks in advance for your help
>
----
> -------------------------------------
> João Pedro Baptista
>
> Lisboa - Portugal
Fleisher/Szell - especially if you can find the original set that also
includes the Mozart K 503. I have not heard the Arrau, but based on all
the other Arrau I >>have<< heard I would imagine it to be quite slow and
pedestrian.
Russ O
--
----------------------
Martha Oppenheim
mopp...@ix.netcom.com
----------------------
Joe
Well - so much to choose from.
Perahia is cool, has great sound and a great orchestra in great form.
Arrau is a bit too introspective with this set, but otherwise fine.
Kovacevich on Philips is also very good, if a bit glossy.
Keurti / Davis on CBC is typically interesting - not for beginners.
Fleischer and Szell offer passion and limitied sound - frequently thick.
The Kempff / Leitner set on DG is also magnificent , has better sound than Szell
and
more fire than Perahia, less indulgences than Keurti or Arrau.
If your a first time listener then either (which ever is cheaper):
Kovacevich / Davis on Philips
Perahia / Haitink on CBS/Sony
Kempff / Leitner on DG
then any of the above.
But in all honesty all are very very good and will give hours of pleasure
JOE
Leroy Curtis
In article <19980314125...@ladder03.news.aol.com>, Rascalj
<ras...@aol.com> writes
>My vote would be as follows:
>
>1 & 2: Vogt/Rattle (a clear first choice)
>3 Serkin/Bernstein
>4 Gilels/Ludwig
>5 Kovacevich w/Australian Chamber Orch.
>
>For HIP, The Gardiner 1 & 2 is thrilling.
>
her Tchaikowsky 1. How's her Beethoven?
--
Regards
Leroy Curtis
Please delete the asterisks in my address if you wish to reply by Email
Nat228
>I惴 thinking of buying a full set of Beethoven愀 Piano Concertos. I扉e
>looked in some CD stores, and I惴 considering the sets:
I have the same question. BMG offers Ashkenazy, Brendel, and Pollini. Are
these any good?
Tony Movshon
Donald Patterson <NOS...@erols.com> writes:
> Jo=E3o Baptista wrote:
> > I'm thinking of buying a full set of Beethoven=B4s Piano Concertos. I've
> > looked in some CD stores, and I=B4m considering the sets:
> > 1 - Murray Perahya/Haytink at Sony
> > 2 - Claudio Arrau/Davies at Philips
> If you are to own only one, an excellent choice
>
> is Fleischer/Szell on Sony. These are refined,
> uneccentric performances that bristle with
> energy. The 4th displays an elegance that
> often eludes many interpreters. The price is
> right, too. The sound, even if it does belie
> its age, is fine.
Fleisher/Szell is an excellent inexpensive recommendation. But I have
recently come to prefer the equally inexpensive set by
Bishop-Kovacevich/C. Davis on a pair of cheap Philips Duos. Bishop is
superb and characterful, and Davis' accompaniments are wonderfully
expressive. You also get an excellent Beethoven violin concerto
(Krebbers/Haitink), an OK triple concerto (Inbal), and some lesser
pieces. The sound is good, better than on Fleisher/Szell.
With bargain sets like these around, there's no need to pay premium
price for the likes of Perahia and Arrau (especially for performances
that aren't as exciting).
Tony Movshon
Center for Neural Science New York University
http://www.cns.nyu.edu mov...@nyu.edu
Alan Cooper
Leroy Curtis <Leroy@baram.*demon.co.uk*> wrote:
>I saw a recording of Martha Argerich in 1 & 2 at HMV recently. I love
>her Tchaikowsky 1. How's her Beethoven?
I assume you're talking about Argerich/Sinopoli. Nothing to write
home about, IMO. On the other hand, Argerich's earlier self-conducted
#2 with the London Sinfonietta is one of the best recordings ever, and
it is coupled with a scintillating Haydn concerto. I don't know if
it's currently available, but it's well worth seeking out.
Alan Cooper
Donald Patterson
Tony Movshon wrote:
>
> Donald Patterson <NOS...@erols.com> writes:
> > Jo=E3o Baptista wrote:
> > > I'm thinking of buying a full set of Beethoven=B4s Piano Concertos. I've
> > > looked in some CD stores, and I=B4m considering the sets:
>
> > > 1 - Murray Perahya/Haytink at Sony
> > > 2 - Claudio Arrau/Davies at Philips
>
> > If you are to own only one, an excellent choice
> >
> > is Fleischer/Szell on Sony. These are refined,
> > uneccentric performances that bristle with
> > energy. The 4th displays an elegance that
> > often eludes many interpreters. The price is
> > right, too. The sound, even if it does belie
> > its age, is fine.
>
> Fleisher/Szell is an excellent inexpensive recommendation. But I have
> recently come to prefer the equally inexpensive set by
> Bishop-Kovacevich/C. Davis on a pair of cheap Philips Duos. Bishop is
> superb and characterful, and Davis' accompaniments are wonderfully
> expressive. You also get an excellent Beethoven violin concerto
> (Krebbers/Haitink), an OK triple concerto (Inbal), and some lesser
> pieces. The sound is good, better than on Fleisher/Szell.
>
Well, Tony, I certainly can't argue with you. First of all, I haven't
heard the BK Beethoven set. Secondly, what I have heard of BK's work,
I have admired very much. I do, however, have concerns about the Davis
part. In my experience, Davis' Beethoven has lacked energy. Could this
set be different than what I have heard before?
Tony Movshon
Leroy Curtis <Leroy@baram.*demon.co.uk*> writes:
> I saw a recording of Martha Argerich in 1 & 2 at HMV recently. I love
> her Tchaikowsky 1. How's her Beethoven?
Not recommendable. She plays with her trademark whipcrack intensity,
but the performances are wholly undone by flaccid, sluggish
accompaniments by Sinopoli. It's as if the two principals inhabit
entirely different worlds.
RIVAS
Joe <jos...@avint.net> wrote in article <350AA471...@avint.net>...
> Well - so much to choose from.
>
.
> The Kempff / Leitner set on DG is also magnificent , has better sound
than Szell
> and
> more fire than Perahia, less indulgences than Keurti or Arrau.
>
> If your a first time listener then either (which ever is cheaper):
> Kovacevich / Davis on Philips
> Perahia / Haitink on CBS/Sony
> Kempff / Leitner on DG
> then any of the above.
> But in all honesty all are very very good and will give hours of pleasure
> JOE
>
The Kempff/Leitner is good, but I prefer Kempff earlier cycle with Van
Kempen (DG).
Tony Movshon
Donald Patterson <NOS...@erols.com> writes:
> Tony Movshon wrote:
> >
> > Fleisher/Szell is an excellent inexpensive recommendation. But I have
> > recently come to prefer the equally inexpensive set by
> > Bishop-Kovacevich/C. Davis on a pair of cheap Philips Duos. Bishop is
> > superb and characterful, and Davis' accompaniments are wonderfully
> > expressive. You also get an excellent Beethoven violin concerto
> > (Krebbers/Haitink), an OK triple concerto (Inbal), and some lesser
> > pieces. The sound is good, better than on Fleisher/Szell.
>
> Well, Tony, I certainly can't argue with you. First of all, I haven't
> heard the BK Beethoven set. Secondly, what I have heard of BK's work,
> I have admired very much. I do, however, have concerns about the Davis
> part. In my experience, Davis' Beethoven has lacked energy. Could this
> set be different than what I have heard before?
There's no lack of energy in Davis' conducting; it's propulsive,
full-force Beethoven, which doesn't stint the gruffness and bumpiness
of some of these pieces. This is not the same as the bland Davis of
the Dresden Beethoven cycle; think more of the young Davis who
recorded that rip-roaring 7th with the RPO in 1961. The collaboration
between Bishop and Davis produced some excellent recordings around the
same time -- Brahms 1 & 2, Mozart 21 & 25, Grieg (I think ...) ...
Buy without hesitation.
Simon Roberts
Tony Movshon (to...@cns.nyu.edu) wrote:
: Leroy Curtis <Leroy@baram.*demon.co.uk*> writes:
: > I saw a recording of Martha Argerich in 1 & 2 at HMV recently. I love
: > her Tchaikowsky 1. How's her Beethoven?
: Not recommendable. She plays with her trademark whipcrack intensity,
: but the performances are wholly undone by flaccid, sluggish
: accompaniments by Sinopoli. It's as if the two principals inhabit
: entirely different worlds.
Not only that, but the sound is pretty much unlistenable also: the
orchestra is reduced by excessive reverberation to homogeneous mush (it
was based on this and his rosette winning Mendelssohn 4/Schubert 8 that I
wrote Sinopoli off as a conductor; he's improved dramatically since then);
Argerich is supposed to have recorded all the concertos with Harnoncourt,
which should be far superior. Meanwhile, look for her superlative EMI
disc of Beethoven 2/Haydn 11....
Simon
Simon Roberts
Nat228 (nat...@aol.com) wrote:
: >I惴 thinking of buying a full set of Beethoven愀 Piano Concertos. I扉e
: >looked in some CD stores, and I惴 considering the sets:
: I have the same question. BMG offers Ashkenazy, Brendel, and Pollini. Are
: these any good?
Which Ashkenazy? I think he recorded them three times. Brendel is quite
good, benefitting from Levine's more alert support than Haitink provided
for him the last time around and from better sound and accompaniments than
Vox gave him in the early 1960s. Forget Pollini; all concerned sound
bored by the music, including Abbado and the BPO. You would never know
this was "live" or that the same pianist could be responsible for an
inspired Waldstein sonata (or at least so his new recording seems after
one listen).
Simon
Gerrit Stolte
si...@dept.english.upenn.edu (Simon Roberts) wrote:
>Tony Movshon (to...@cns.nyu.edu) wrote:
>: Leroy Curtis <Leroy@baram.*demon.co.uk*> writes:
>: > I saw a recording of Martha Argerich in 1 & 2 at HMV recently. I love
>: > her Tchaikowsky 1. How's her Beethoven?
>: Not recommendable. She plays with her trademark whipcrack intensity,
>: but the performances are wholly undone by flaccid, sluggish
>: accompaniments by Sinopoli. It's as if the two principals inhabit
>: entirely different worlds.
>Not only that, but the sound is pretty much unlistenable also: the
>orchestra is reduced by excessive reverberation to homogeneous mush
Well, time to throw in an oppsing viewpoint. I just listened to parts
of this recordings. While Sinopoli certainly doesn't do a good job,
Argerich's playing transcends that of other performer's mentioned so
far in this thread, be it Kempff, Fleisher, Ashkenazy or Brendel. And
since these are Concertos for PIANO and orchestra and not Concertos
for Orchestra and Piano, I'm not really bothered with Sinopoli. Five
minutes into the first movement, I'm all ears to Martha. However, the
following remark by Simon...
> Meanwhile, look for her superlative EMI disc of Beethoven 2/Haydn 11....
...already seconded by some people in this discussion, leads me to
recommend an ideal addition to this disc. ABM's recording of 1 and 3
(with the VSO/Guilini) on DGG Originals. Again, Michelangeli's pianism
surpasses anything by the aforementioned. He also recorded the 5th
concerto. Another great 5th is the Cliburn/Reiner collaboration on
RCA. I can't really recommend a decent 4th concerto, because after
happily trading in the Fleisher/Szell and Kempff/Leitner sets I don't
have a recoding of this.
>Argerich is supposed to have recorded all the concertos with Harnoncourt,
>which should be far superior.
Oh, this will provide me with a performance of the 4th. Any details on
the date of release? Definetely a canditate for a (**) rating in the
PG....;-)
Gerrit
to reply, remove nospam* from my e-mail adress
Simon Roberts
Gerrit Stolte (stolte@nospam*stud.uni-frankfurt.de) wrote:
: Well, time to throw in an oppsing viewpoint. I just listened to parts
: of this recordings. While Sinopoli certainly doesn't do a good job,
: Argerich's playing transcends that of other performer's mentioned so
: far in this thread, be it Kempff, Fleisher, Ashkenazy or Brendel. And
: since these are Concertos for PIANO and orchestra and not Concertos
: for Orchestra and Piano, I'm not really bothered with Sinopoli. Five
: minutes into the first movement, I'm all ears to Martha. However, the
: following remark by Simon...
: > Meanwhile, look for her superlative EMI disc of Beethoven 2/Haydn 11....
: ...already seconded by some people in this discussion, leads me to
: recommend an ideal addition to this disc. ABM's recording of 1 and 3
: (with the VSO/Guilini) on DGG Originals. Again, Michelangeli's pianism
: surpasses anything by the aforementioned. He also recorded the 5th
: concerto. Another great 5th is the Cliburn/Reiner collaboration on
: RCA. I can't really recommend a decent 4th concerto, because after
: happily trading in the Fleisher/Szell and Kempff/Leitner sets I don't
: have a recoding of this.
Agree re the ABM 1/3, but I think his older 5s are better (they don't have
as good sound, of course).
: >Argerich is supposed to have recorded all the concertos with Harnoncourt,
: >which should be far superior.
: Oh, this will provide me with a performance of the 4th. Any details on
: the date of release? Definetely a canditate for a (**) rating in the
: PG....;-)
I have no idea when it will be released; I'm basing this on an interview
with the producer of the Schiff/Haitink set, who commented on how
interesting it was to be working simulataneously on that and
Argerich/Harnoncourt. Perhaps someone out there knows something a little
more definite.
Simon
Gerrit Stolte
si...@dept.english.upenn.edu (Simon Roberts) wrote:
>Agree re the ABM 1/3, but I think his older 5s are better (they don't have
>as good sound, of course).
I haven't heard any of them. Somebody picked up the collaboration with
Celibidache just as I was about to do the same...
>: >Argerich is supposed to have recorded all the concertos with Harnoncourt,
>: >which should be far superior.
>: Oh, this will provide me with a performance of the 4th. Any details on
>: the date of release? Definetely a canditate for a (**) rating in the
>: PG....;-)
>I have no idea when it will be released; I'm basing this on an interview
>with the producer of the Schiff/Haitink set, who commented on how
>interesting it was to be working simulataneously on that and
>Argerich/Harnoncourt. Perhaps someone out there knows something a little
>more definite.
Oh, I feel like a kid wating for Santa to bring the goodies...
Simon Roberts
Tony Movshon (to...@cns.nyu.edu) wrote:
: There's no lack of energy in Davis' conducting; it's propulsive,
: full-force Beethoven, which doesn't stint the gruffness and bumpiness
: of some of these pieces. This is not the same as the bland Davis of
: the Dresden Beethoven cycle; think more of the young Davis who
: recorded that rip-roaring 7th with the RPO in 1961. The collaboration
: between Bishop and Davis produced some excellent recordings around the
: same time -- Brahms 1 & 2, Mozart 21 & 25, Grieg (I think ...) ...
: Buy without hesitation.
Yes. Back when I sold the things this cycle was available as three
separate budget priced discs (his op 109 filled out the Emperor) this was
always the cycle I recommended to people who asked for such things. I had
a devil of a time persuading people to buy them because they were so cheap
(also, I suspect, because few had heard of B-K back then) but I could
usually persuade them to try one of the discs; they invariably came back
for the rest and thanked me for the suggestion. I suspect many more would
agree. With regard to Davis, he seems an extremely inconsistent
conductor; he seems to have become dreadfully stolid when he gave up
London and Amsterdam for Munich (he may have improved since), but these
were all done before that unfortunate transition.
Simon
Donald Patterson
Tony Movshon wrote:
>
> There's no lack of energy in Davis' conducting; it's propulsive,
> full-force Beethoven, which doesn't stint the gruffness and bumpiness
> of some of these pieces. This is not the same as the bland Davis of
> the Dresden Beethoven cycle; think more of the young Davis who
> recorded that rip-roaring 7th with the RPO in 1961. The collaboration
> between Bishop and Davis produced some excellent recordings around the
> same time -- Brahms 1 & 2, Mozart 21 & 25, Grieg (I think ...) ...
>
> Buy without hesitation.
Thank you.
john harkness
John Harkness writes:
Simon Roberts wrote:
> Tony Movshon (to...@cns.nyu.edu) wrote:
> : Leroy Curtis <Leroy@baram.*demon.co.uk*> writes:
> : > I saw a recording of Martha Argerich in 1 & 2 at HMV recently. I love
> : > her Tchaikowsky 1. How's her Beethoven?
> : Not recommendable. She plays with her trademark whipcrack intensity,
> : but the performances are wholly undone by flaccid, sluggish
> : accompaniments by Sinopoli. It's as if the two principals inhabit
> : entirely different worlds.
> Not only that, but the sound is pretty much unlistenable also: the
> orchestra is reduced by excessive reverberation to homogeneous mush (it
> was based on this and his rosette winning Mendelssohn 4/Schubert 8 that I
> wrote Sinopoli off as a conductor; he's improved dramatically since then);
> Argerich is supposed to have recorded all the concertos with Harnoncourt,
> which should be far superior. Meanwhile, look for her superlative EMI
> disc of Beethoven 2/Haydn 11....
According to my WEA guy, the Argerich Beethoven Concerto Cycle is
suspended at the moment. The recordings are NOT in the can at this
point.
Regards,
John
> Simon
john harkness
John Harkness writes:
Simon Roberts wrote:
Contrarian opinon on Brendel/Levine -- one of the first CDs I ever
bought was the Emperor from this cycle, and it turned me off the
concerto itself. The band is just too big and sounds it, Brendel is not
really in synch with Levine (oddly, though I've rarely heard a Beethoven
sonata recording by Brendel that I dislike, I've never heard a Beethoven
concerto recording from him that I do.)
John
Mario Taboada
As someone said, there are lots of choices. For a complete set,
Rubinstein/Leinsdorf is a near-perfect all-around choice; Kempff/Van
Kempen or Kempff/Leitner are also superb. Fleisher/Szell is very good
and cheap. I like Arrau/Galliera (the sound is not modern, but
listenable). Schnabel/Sargent is the benchmark, I'm afraid, and thus
mandatory. There are also wonderful performances of individual concertos
by Richter (1st), Serkin (Emperor), Moravec (Fourth), Gieseking
(several), Fischer (Emperor),and Arrau's Emperor with Davis is
extraordinary. Avoid Gilels and Michelangeli.
Regards,
Mario Taboada
Simon Roberts
Mario Taboada (matr...@sprintmail.com) wrote:
: Avoid Gilels and Michelangeli.
Which ones (there are several from both of at least some concertos), and
why?
Simon
Grant
>
I'm going to take a risk by saying this here in this ng, but I would recommend
the set by Gould as one to have in your collection. No, I don't believe these
are definitive performances; and, there are a lot of inconsistencies with the
sound and such since they were recorded over a long period of time with
different orchestras and conductors. I really like the first concerto from
this set a lot. I think it's worth owning the set just for this performance
alone. The virtuosity displyed in this performance is thrilling along with
the energy of the performance in general. I love Gould's cadenza in the first
movement, but the one in the third movement is a bit strange (full of
relatively harsh disonances for Beethoven). Still, a great rendering of the
piece in my opinion. The only performance of the set that I really don't like
is the 2nd. I've only had the set for a short time, so hopefully I'll have
more detailed insights into the performances in the future after further
listenings.
Grant
PGoldst515
I haven't heard the Pollini/Abbado set, but the Pollini/Bohm Beethoven 4 is one
of my favorites, achieving to me a sort of ideal of classical balance (a good
thing, I think, in this music). I have rarely if ever heard the VPO play
better, too.
Paul Goldstein
Simon Roberts
Grant (gran...@nospam.nr.infi.net) wrote:
: >
: I'm going to take a risk by saying this here in this ng, but I would recommend
Good for you; I think the set is indispensable and, like you, love his
recording of #1 (partly the underrated Golschmann's doing, I expect: the
accompaniment is unusually alive); #4 is pretty amazing as well
(especially the first movement), but I disagree about #2. Even so, you
may agree that this is probably not the place to start....
Simon
kevin rayburn
Martha Oppenheim wrote:
>
> João Baptista wrote:
> >
> > Hi there
> >
> > I´m thinking of buying a full set of Beethoven´s Piano Concertos. I´ve
> >
> > 1 - Murray Perahya/Haytink at Sony
> > 2 - Claudio Arrau/Davies at Philips
> >
> > Thanks in advance for your help
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----
> > -------------------------------------
> > João Pedro Baptista
> >
> > Lisboa - Portugal
> Fleisher/Szell - especially if you can find the original set that also
> includes the Mozart K 503. I have not heard the Arrau, but based on all
> the other Arrau I >>have<< heard I would imagine it to be quite slow and
> pedestrian.
>
> Russ O
> --
> ----------------------
> Martha Oppenheim
> mopp...@ix.netcom.com
> ----------------------
I'll second Fleischer/Szell. Alert pianism and animated accompaniment.
And CHEAP. Acceptable stereo sound. A perfect starter set. Fun for such
a non-controversial approach.
--
Kevin Rayburn ---->>> (To email me: remove the pound # sign from my
address)
In Real Life: Editor--research, alumni titles, University of Louisville
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Mahesh Sardesai
In article <6egpmd$k8k$2...@netnews.upenn.edu>, si...@dept.english.upenn.edu
(Simon Roberts) wrote:
> Nat228 (nat...@aol.com) wrote:
> : >I惴 thinking of buying a full set of Beethoven愀 Piano Concertos. I扉e
> : >looked in some CD stores, and I惴 considering the sets:
>
> : I have the same question. BMG offers Ashkenazy, Brendel, and Pollini. Are
> : these any good?
>
> Which Ashkenazy? I think he recorded them three times.
The Decca set with the Cleveland Orchestra, in which he conducts from the
piano. I've heard the 3rd and 5th from this set on the radio, and while
not first choices, I found both to be pretty solid and commendable.
For the record, this is what I own for the piano concertos:
1&2: Argerich/Philharmonia/Sinopoli (DG)
3&4: Perahia/Concertgebouw/Haitink (Sony)
5: Fleisher/Cleveland/Szell (with Triple Concerto) (Sony)
I haven't been disappointed with any of these, though I'm always on the
lookout for other fine performances.
Specifically, I'm looking for a good "Choral Fantasia" -- any suggestions?
--
Mahesh P. Sardesai
Brown University (A.B. 1998)
Mahesh_...@brown.edu
Check out: http://www.brown.edu/Students/Brown_University_Chorus/
Tony Movshon
Mahesh_...@brown.edu (Mahesh Sardesai) writes:
> Specifically, I'm looking for a good "Choral Fantasia" -- any suggestions?
Well, the first is to find one not by Beethoven -- it's, um, not among
the Master's greatest works ...
If you won't take that advice, try Barenboim/Klemperer -- they make
the most of it!
Simon Roberts
Mahesh Sardesai (Mahesh_...@brown.edu) wrote:
: In article <6egpmd$k8k$2...@netnews.upenn.edu>, si...@dept.english.upenn.edu
: (Simon Roberts) wrote:
: >
: > Which Ashkenazy? I think he recorded them three times.
: The Decca set with the Cleveland Orchestra, in which he conducts from the
: piano. I've heard the 3rd and 5th from this set on the radio, and while
: not first choices, I found both to be pretty solid and commendable.
I've never heard that one.
: For the record, this is what I own for the piano concertos:
: 1&2: Argerich/Philharmonia/Sinopoli (DG)
: 3&4: Perahia/Concertgebouw/Haitink (Sony)
: 5: Fleisher/Cleveland/Szell (with Triple Concerto) (Sony)
: I haven't been disappointed with any of these, though I'm always on the
: lookout for other fine performances.
: Specifically, I'm looking for a good "Choral Fantasia" -- any suggestions?
Yes, several, though I don't know how available all these are. My
favorite non-HIP recordings are, in no particular order, Serkin/Bernstein;
Katchen/Gamba; and Barenboim/Klemperer -- as much for the conducting as
the pianist in each case -- it's important to keep this work on a fairly
tight rein and bring out the excitement at the end; most fail to, but
these three don't. All these have been on CD, Katchen's on a cheap
London collection of Beethoven odds and ends, but only Bernstein's may be
generally accessible now. For HIP, Levin/Gardiner (Tan/Norrington is
good too, but is harnessed to an unacceptable Emperor, wrecked in part by
the dull piano used (he switches to another for the Fantasy)), superbly
played, conducted, sung, and recorded. There are also such curiosities as
Yudina and Richter, who offer superlative piano playing hobbled by (or
rendered amusing by, depending on your mood) a Russian translation, mono
sound and odd Russian orchestral noises (horns especially).
Simon
raj...@starmail.com
In article <Mahesh_Sardesai-...@bootp-37.tsq-a.brown.edu>,
Mahesh_...@brown.edu (Mahesh Sardesai) wrote:
>
I spent quite a while comparing all available versions at HMV. What I came up
with is Ashkenazy's earlier cycle on Decca, CSO/Solti, and this will have to
be my all-round recommendation for all 5 concerti. You get the late
Bagatelles as a Bonus. The Achilles Heel is No. 1, for which you will have to
get (in order of preference) : Lars Vogt/CBSO/Simon Rattle (EMI) Glenn
Gould/Columbia SO/Vladimir Golshmann (sp.?) (Sony) Martha
Argerich/Philharmonia/Sinopoli (loses because of Sinopoli) (DG)
This first Ashkenazy is extremely vibrant, and he and Solti really strike
sparks off each other. Check out what Gramophone says (if you are so
inclined) by checking out Mar 89 issue on the issue of the Cleveland cycle.
They prefer Cleveland, apparently, but they never say why. I listened to
Cleveland, but the piano is too closely miked.
For the Choral Fantasy you have to have a version with the soloists : 1.
Yevgeny Kissin/Soloists (what soloists!) /Ernst Senff Chorus/BPO/Abbado
(Live, DG) 2. Sounds funny, but : Peter Rosel (not Charles Rosen)/Dresden
State Orchestra and Chorus/Herbert Kegel. (Label unknown. Find it if you can.
Could be Capriccio or something). The Classical Catalogue lists this as
Franz-Peter Wiegl, who is actually the Chorus Master, not the pianist!
If you are interested in getting the catalogue nos., email me I will dig them
out for you. (all the mentioned versions)
Rajeev Aloysius
raj...@starmail.com
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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Ramon Khalona
By all means try to hear Casadesus's recordings of Nos. 1 & 4 (van
Beinum/Concertgebouw) and No. 5 (Rosbaud/Concertgebouw). These are
mandatory listening and I am not kidding.
--
Ramon Khalona "Die Sechste ist die Keckste"
Carlsbad, California - Anton Bruckner -
Yi-kuan Jong
In article <6ehnp1$gke$1...@news.nyu.edu>, Tony Movshon <to...@cns.nyu.edu> wrote:
"
"Mahesh_...@brown.edu (Mahesh Sardesai) writes:
"" Specifically, I'm looking for a good "Choral Fantasia" -- any suggestions?
"
"the Master's greatest works ...
"
"If you won't take that advice, try Barenboim/Klemperer -- they make
"the most of it!
"
" Tony Movshon
"Center for Neural Science New York University
"http://www.cns.nyu.edu mov...@nyu.edu
But it is a boring performacs as far as I remember, IMO.
Regards,
Joey
C.N. Chew
RIVAS wrote:
> The Kempff/Leitner is good, but I prefer Kempff earlier cycle with Van
> Kempen (DG).
Oh yes, if you respond to Kempff then the set with van Kempen is one of
the happiest investments you could make. Kempff plays with such delight
and daring that other pianists sound merely earnest afterwards. Every
minute of this set is a joy.
Naun.
John Harkness
John Harkness writes:
Mahesh Sardesai wrote:
> Specifically, I'm looking for a good "Choral Fantasia" -- any suggestions?
> Mahesh P. Sardesai
> Brown University (A.B. 1998)
> Mahesh_...@brown.edu
Check out Norrington with Melvyn Tan at the fortepiano -- I heard them
give it on a Sunday morning at SUNY-Purchase as part of Norrington's
Bethoven Experience Weekend, and it was the first time the piece made
sense to me -- it was preceeded by an interesting lecture on the
composition as a dialogue between the artist and the muse.
The recording comes coupled with the Emperor, which I quite like, and
which is as radically different a performance from the Fleisher/Szell as
you could want.
Regards,
John
Simon Roberts
Ramon Khalona (rkha...@adnc.com) wrote:
: By all means try to hear Casadesus's recordings of Nos. 1 & 4 (van
: Beinum/Concertgebouw) and No. 5 (Rosbaud/Concertgebouw). These are
: mandatory listening and I am not kidding.
Agree; are these on CD anywhere?
Simon
BrtherJohn
In article <19980315190...@ladder03.news.aol.com>, pgold...@aol.com
(PGoldst515) writes:
I think the old Pollini is about my favorite account as well. Nicely recorded
too. The newer is not bad though. Some may point out that Abbado's conducting
is a little more alert and characterful than Bohm. Surprisingly, Pollini's
views have altered little - very little, over the years. The older box set
also has the advantage of the Choral Fantasie as a bonus - not found on the
Berlin set.
Brthe...@aol.com (John Blair)
BrtherJohn
In article <350C4B...@homer.louisville.edu>, kevin rayburn
<kpra...@homer.louisville.edu> writes:
>
>I'll second Fleischer/Szell. Alert pianism and animated accompaniment.
>And CHEAP. Acceptable stereo sound. A perfect starter set. Fun for such
>a non-controversial approach.
>
Actually, Fleisher's 4th is probably the best recorded in the set, and was the
first taped, back in '58. Must have been a good year for CBS engineers. A lot
of good sounding discs came out at about the same time (Fleisher's Brahms' No.
1, and a few Philly recordings.)
I just wished that Fleisher played Beethoven's original cadenza.
Brthe...@aol.com (John Blair)
Andre T. Yew
For some reason, I can't get enough of Glenn Gould's 1 & 2, especially
the cadenzas. Anyone else with this problem?
--Andre
--
PGP public key available
John Harkness
John Harkness writes:
Neil Tingley wrote:
> The 2nd is really odd since it was nominally GG's favourite of the cycle. There
> are I think 3 live recordings - one from Stockholm, one from Lenningrad
> (available as part of the GG Sony edition) and another which might be from
> Canada. The Lenningrad performance is much more playful and loving than the
> Berstein collaboration. Gould wasn't happy with Lenny's conducting I think and
> that might have soured the collaboration.
The Canadian 2nd is from december 1951 with Sir Ernest MacMillan the
Toronto Symphony and made when GG was 19. It WAS available on M&A
CD-284, but the Gould Estate has apparently gotten very huffy about the
M&A's since they own copyright on any pre-Columbian GG recordings.
> The 3rd is a performance which has little or no impact on me until the last
> moevement. I'm not sure why its such a loy key affair. His live collaboration
> with Karajan is in a different league - and no doubt why the Stuckenschmidt, the
> famous Berlin critic declared GG "the finest pianist since Busoni" !
There is another Third from Canadian sources, coupled with the
aforementioned second and on a CBC release -- February 21/55 coupled
with the Eroica varions and the Op 34 Six Variations on an original
theme, both from 1952. Disc is PSCD 2004.
Regards,
John
John Harkness
John Harkness writes:
Why do you consider this a problem?
John
Rascalj
Doesn't anyone agree with me that Rattle and Vogt and have set a
new standard for 1 & 2
Joel Warren Lidz, Ph.D.
Department of Philosophy
Bentley College
Waltham, MA 02154
Rob Woronuk
In article <350C4BA2...@nospam.nr.infi.net>,
gran...@nospam.nr.infi.net says...
>
I'm up and down over most of Gould's Beethoven but his first
movement cadenza to the Beethoven's 1st is one of the most astonishing
accomplishments in recent piano history. What an ending!
Rob
mtangent
Gerrit Stolte wrote:
> I can't really recommend a decent 4th concerto, because after
> happily trading in the Fleisher/Szell and Kempff/Leitner sets I don't
> have a recoding of this.
>
I can highly recommend the Moravec/Turnovsky 4th if you can find it.
It was on lp as part of the 'Connoisseur Society' set and I found it last year
on a'Vai Audio' cd.
A terrific recording of a terrific work, and just in case I'm repeating
myself... it's terrific.
Cheers,
John M.
Mario Taboada
[on Moravec/Turnovsky's Beeethoven Fourth Concerto]
<<A terrific recording of a terrific work, and just in case I'm
repeating
myself... it's terrific.>>
This one belongs squarely in the RMCR Hall of Fame. No matter how many
times you've heard this work, this performance paints it anew. It
deserves all the superlatives it usually gets, to which I'm always happy
to add...
Regards,
Mario Taboada
Simon Roberts
Rascalj (ras...@aol.com) wrote:
: Doesn't anyone agree with me that Rattle and Vogt and have set a
: new standard for 1 & 2
It's impressive, certainly, but in what ways do you think it sets a new
standard? I don't hear anything particularly individual or at least new
-- as I do with, to my surprise, Schiff/Haitink (which no-one but me seems
to have mentioned), or, for obvious reasons, Levin/Gardiner.
Simon
cw...@gmx.net
On 14 Mar 1998 03:05:10 GMT, "João Baptista" <JBat...@mail.EUnet.pt>
wrote:
>
>Hi there
>
>I´m thinking of buying a full set of Beethoven´s Piano Concertos. I´ve
>looked in some CD stores, and I´m considering the sets:
>
>1 - Murray Perahya/Haytink at Sony
>2 - Claudio Arrau/Davies at Philips
>
>Have anyone heard them? What do you think of them? Any other alternatives?
>Thanks in advance for your help
Nowadays my preference goes to Kempff/Van Kempen by far, in spite of
its being mono.
Man F Wong
Gerrit Stolte <stolte@nospam*stud.uni-frankfurt.de> wrote in article
<6egrm8$lre$1...@grapool30.rz.uni-frankfurt.de>...
> si...@dept.english.upenn.edu (Simon Roberts) wrote:
>
> >Argerich is supposed to have recorded all the concertos with
Harnoncourt,
> >which should be far superior.
>
> Oh, this will provide me with a performance of the 4th. Any details on
> the date of release? Definetely a canditate for a (**) rating in the
> PG....;-)
>
This I really don't understand. AFAIK, PG seems to like Argerich very much
in general although they often prefer Horowitz or some other highly
regarded pianist that may be better known outside of classical circles. I
often see Argerich's playing compared to Horowitz in terms of bravura,
range of tone color and electricity by PG. Whenever someone else is
prefered by PG for a particular work, it is usually prefered by a narrow
margin.
Regards,
_Man_
--
To reply via email, just remove **NOSPAM** from my address.
Man F Wong
Nat228 <nat...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19980314192...@ladder03.news.aol.com>...
> >I惴 thinking of buying a full set of Beethoven愀 Piano Concertos. I扉e
> >looked in some CD stores, and I惴 considering the sets:
>
> I have the same question. BMG offers Ashkenazy, Brendel, and Pollini.
Are
> these any good?
>
Given how cheaply Kovacevich/Davis and other older recordings can be found,
you don't need to limit yourself to what BMG offers. While I have not
heard any of the ones you mentioned, I'm sure plenty around here and in
various magazines/guides (particularly PG) can at least recommend
Kovacevich/Davis more highly than those three. Kovacevich/Davis's cycle
plus other Beethoven concertos, etc. can be found on 2 Philips Duos which
should be comparable to or cheaper than the BMG offerings.
David
Ramon Khalona wrote:
>
> By all means try to hear Casadesus's recordings of Nos. 1 & 4 (van
> Beinum/Concertgebouw) and No. 5 (Rosbaud/Concertgebouw). These are
> mandatory listening and I am not kidding.
Couldn't agree more about 4 & 5. Haven't heard 1.
-david gable
D. Stephen Heersink
I'm a new-found admirer of Stephen Kovacevich on EMI. His stellar
performances almost make orchestral consideration an afterthought.
Simon Roberts
D. Stephen Heersink (dsh...@sprintmail.com) wrote:
: I'm a new-found admirer of Stephen Kovacevich on EMI. His stellar
: performances almost make orchestral consideration an afterthought.
But his conducting/their playing is impressive too, no?
Simon
8-H Haggis
On Mon, 16 Mar 1998 00:48:04 -0500, John Harkness <j...@netcom.ca>
wrote:
>John Harkness writes:
>
>Mahesh Sardesai wrote:
>
>> Specifically, I'm looking for a good "Choral Fantasia" -- any suggestions?
>
>
>> Mahesh P. Sardesai
As far as I am concerned, I would collect ALL recordings of the Choral
Fantasy! My first LP copy was the early-50s performance by
Richter/Gauk, on Monitor, which I while attending high school: I was
hooked! I am sure that I have listened to the piece far more often
than the Ninth Symphony.
At present, I have:
Dorfmann/NBC/Toscanini: pianist is clumsy, but conductor, orchestra,
and chorus are riveting; 1939 sound is slightly below the quality of
the same conductor's live "Eroica" of that year on RCA CD. Avoid the
Grammophono transfer with much fake stereo echo: the Music&Arts
transfer (with the great 1940 Missa Solemnis) is fine.
Serkin/NYP/Bernstein: recently reissued on CD in a Sony 2-fer with an
odd assortment of 1960s Columbia Beethoven readings: Ormandy's AWFUL
superficial and boring Ninth, Schippers' very good "Emperor Joseph"
cantata and Crespin's "Ah! Perfido", and Boulez' "Calm Sea". Serkin
is a powerhouse, and almost seems to take off in flight! The
performance is rowdy.
Barenboim/NPO/Klemperer: a moral lesson in sobriety in comparison to
the above. But I am not altogether certain that I did not prefer
Barenboim's new version with the BPO, which I saw on A&E Television a
few weeks ago, despite the pianist/conductor's agogics in the opening
solo.
Klien, St. Louis Sym/Semkow: a great budget recording in superb sound,
once available on a single Vox disk, and now in a 2-fer with some
decent Wagner snippets: a great orchestra, and a very honest "concert
hall" recording by Mark Aubort.
Kootz, Berlin RSO, Koch - Pilz. This strange CD cost me exactly $1;
it is from the Pilz "East German Revolution" broadcast aircheck
series. A decent performance in the Germanic tradition.
Tan, Norrington: very fine if you like period interpretations and
instruments.
Katchen, LSO, Gamba: this was one of the highlights of the
Katchen/Gamba cycle of the Beethoven piano/orchestra works, and is a
resonant ffss recording. Vigorous and unsubtle, but bracing.
Ax, NYP, Mehta: live reading from 1983, on RCA Gold Seal, with the
Ax/Previn Emperor. Not bad, but does not generate the voltage of
Serking/Bernstein; yet it has nice, modern digital sound with good
balances.
Rosl, Dresden Orch/Kegel - Capriccio. This fine performance was
coupled with a good Triple Concerto, and was done at the same time as
the interesting Kegel set of the 9 symphonies. Very realistic sound
for a solid reading in traditional central-European style.
Brendel, Stuttgart PO, Boettcher. One of the very early Brendel
stereo recordings from the late 50s/early 60s on Vox: scrappy
orchestra but exciting playing and singing. Sound is coarse and
screechy, but a raw vitality clearly comes through.
Yours,
8-H Haggis
Allison DiCecio
8-H Haggis (nos...@noEmail.com) wrote:
[snip]
: Serkin/NYP/Bernstein: recently reissued on CD in a Sony 2-fer with an
: odd assortment of 1960s Columbia Beethoven readings: Ormandy's AWFUL
: superficial and boring Ninth, Schippers' very good "Emperor Joseph"
: cantata and Crespin's "Ah! Perfido", and Boulez' "Calm Sea". Serkin
: is a powerhouse, and almost seems to take off in flight! The
: performance is rowdy.
THE way to get this magnificent performance is in the Sony Royal Edition,
attached to Bernstein's comparably wonderful NYPO Missa Solemnis and
L.S.O. Haydn Theresa Mass; much more appropriate company.
: Barenboim/NPO/Klemperer: a moral lesson in sobriety in comparison to
: the above. But I am not altogether certain that I did not prefer
: Barenboim's new version with the BPO, which I saw on A&E Television a
: few weeks ago, despite the pianist/conductor's agogics in the opening
: solo.
Maybe; but the wind playing Klemperer elicits....
[snip]
Simon
mtangent
D. Stephen Heersink wrote:
> I'm a new-found admirer of Stephen Kovacevich on EMI. His stellar
> performances almost make orchestral consideration an afterthought.
My first rave pianist was Arrau... he seemed to be able to open up the
works he performed.
As I listened more I became fond of Kempff and others for their warmth
and more quiet[?] excitement. But I have always found Kovacevic well
placed in the middle ground.
He has that 'layering' technique [perhaps there is a better term ?] that
is so enjoyable.
Cheers,
John M.
Chuck Nessa
My first recording of this (I still have it) was on Vox - Friedrich
Wuehrer/Clemens Krauss/VSO. It was the 4th side of the 9th by Horenstein.
CN
8-H Haggis wrote:
> On Mon, 16 Mar 1998 00:48:04 -0500, John Harkness <j...@netcom.ca>
> wrote:
>
> >John Harkness writes:
> >
> >Mahesh Sardesai wrote:
> >
> >> Specifically, I'm looking for a good "Choral Fantasia" -- any suggestions?
> >
> >
> >> Mahesh P. Sardesai
>
> As far as I am concerned, I would collect ALL recordings of the Choral
> Fantasy! My first LP copy was the early-50s performance by
> Richter/Gauk, on Monitor, which I while attending high school: I was
> hooked! I am sure that I have listened to the piece far more often
> than the Ninth Symphony.
>
> At present, I have:
>
> Dorfmann/NBC/Toscanini: pianist is clumsy, but conductor, orchestra,
> and chorus are riveting; 1939 sound is slightly below the quality of
> the same conductor's live "Eroica" of that year on RCA CD. Avoid the
> Grammophono transfer with much fake stereo echo: the Music&Arts
> transfer (with the great 1940 Missa Solemnis) is fine.
>
> Serkin/NYP/Bernstein: recently reissued on CD in a Sony 2-fer with an
> odd assortment of 1960s Columbia Beethoven readings: Ormandy's AWFUL
> superficial and boring Ninth, Schippers' very good "Emperor Joseph"
> cantata and Crespin's "Ah! Perfido", and Boulez' "Calm Sea". Serkin
> is a powerhouse, and almost seems to take off in flight! The
> performance is rowdy.
>
> Barenboim/NPO/Klemperer: a moral lesson in sobriety in comparison to
> the above. But I am not altogether certain that I did not prefer
> Barenboim's new version with the BPO, which I saw on A&E Television a
> few weeks ago, despite the pianist/conductor's agogics in the opening
> solo.
>
Paul Kintzele
8-H Haggis (nos...@noEmail.com) wrote:
: As far as I am concerned, I would collect ALL recordings of the Choral
: Fantasy!
I would add to your list Masur/Gewandhaus on Philips. I'm usually a bit
hesitant about Masur, but this disc is magnificent. Comes with a
resplendent Triple Concerto (with the Beaux Arts Trio). My only quibble
with this recording of the Choral Fantasy is that the solo singing isn't
as robust as it could (or should) be. But it's a wonderful performance,
to be sure.
I too saw that televised Barenboim/BPO Choral Fantasy (also coming after
a Triple Concerto, with Perlman and Ma) and it was darn good.
raj...@starmail.com
> Rosl, Dresden Orch/Kegel - Capriccio. This fine performance was
> coupled with a good Triple Concerto, and was done at the same time as
> the interesting Kegel set of the 9 symphonies. Very realistic sound
> for a solid reading in traditional central-European style.
I second this version, and wish to add Evgeny Kissin's second (not the first
one with Karajan), with Claudio Abbado live in Berlin. What soloists! It's in
the Beethoven DG edition, chosen in preference to Pollini, and so many others
who have recorded for the company.
Rajeev
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
Vladislav Panferov
raj...@starmail.com wrote:
>
> > Rosl, Dresden Orch/Kegel - Capriccio. This fine performance was
> > coupled with a good Triple Concerto, and was done at the same time as
> > the interesting Kegel set of the 9 symphonies. Very realistic sound
> > for a solid reading in traditional central-European style.
>
> I second this version, and wish to add Evgeny Kissin's second (not the first
> one with Karajan), with Claudio Abbado live in Berlin. What soloists! It's in
> the Beethoven DG edition, chosen in preference to Pollini, and so many others
> who have recorded for the company.
>
> Rajeev
>
That Pollini recording with Abbado is in my list of candidates to a worst
recording of anything. Not only because Pollini's playing is rather dull,
but mainly due to the horrible, too often out of tune chorus (or were that
soloists? frankly I don't remember). There must have been a big off-day for
them all. So there's no wonder with regard to choice of Kissin.
/vlad
--
My e-mail address is vk...@math.chalmers.se