Stunning e-mail from WB-C
Frank Berger
my money from two orders for "Hatto" Cds. The e-mail contained copies of
the two invoices, so it seems to be legit. He requested that I return the
CDs, whereupon he would refund my PayPal account.
I suggested that I would return all the CDs following his return 1/2 the
money to the PayPal account as a sign of his good faith. Though not likely,
I suppose, I decided to protect myself from the possibility of being
swindled twice by this gentleman. Those CDs *do* appear to still have
secondary market value, after all.
Call me crazy.
yenda smejkal
"Frank Berger" <frank.d...@dal.frb.org> wrote in message
news:13fc2s1...@news.supernews.com...
might be worth in a few years time...sometimes these scandals produce later
interest and they might fetch a few quid...i am hanging onto mine!
sorabji...@lineone.net
Well, good luck! Do be careful of that very real possibility of double
swindle if at all possible, however. As to the retail value of these
CDs in a few years' time, it's anyone's guess, of coruse, but given
the sheer number of them and given that Fiorentino and other
recordings' authenticity is now being called into question, the rarity
value that usually informs such a future market value may well turn
out to be even less than might have been thought when the Hatto
investigations were still in their infancy.
I cannot help but wonder if you are the first to write to WB-C with a
refund request and get and answer...
Best,
Alistair
her...@yahoo.com
arch...@lineone.net> wrote:
>given that Fiorentino and other
> recordings' authenticity is now being called into question,
Is there any info on this? I have two Fiorentino Concert Artist cd's
and have been wondering about their authenticity.
I'd appreciate a link or anything.
Herman
Andrys Basten
sorabji...@lineone.net <sorabji...@lineone.net> wrote:
>I cannot help but wonder if you are the first to write to WB-C with a
>refund request and get and answer...
>
>Best,
>
>Alistair
According to notes I've seen on PianoStreet and, I think, Pianoworld
(where you are too?) he's responded to email and offered refunds
and there've been no reports of a lack of refund at least.
- A
--
http://www.andrys.com
William Sommerwerck
> contained copies of the two invoices, so it seems to be legit. He
> my PayPal account.
> I suggested that I would return all the CDs following his returning 1/2
> the money to the PayPal account as a sign of his good faith. Though
> not likely, I suppose, I decided to protect myself from the possibility
> of being swindled twice by this gentleman. Those CDs *do* appear to
> still have secondary market value, after all.
Agreed. As there's no question you purchased these disks, and they have no
"physical" value, there's no good reason why you should have to return them
before he refunds your money.
I don't see these CDs as having "secondary market" value. It's not as if
they're Leica copies, or something like that.
Paul Ilechko
> ...and given that Fiorentino and other
> recordings' authenticity is now being called into question
By who?
John Briggs
By whom.
See above in the "Hatto and Gracenote" thread:
=== From Ernst Lumpe ===
The Fiorentino Mazurkas were released in 2003. According to what Craig Sapp
from the Royal Holloway wrote the Olejniczak Mazurkas come from a recording
for the label Opus 111 (OP 20002). I don't know when that obscure CD was
released, Sapp writes in his note that "the Fiorentino 1962 matched the
Olejniczak 1990".
--
John Briggs
John Briggs
> On Sep 23, 2:32 pm, Paul Ilechko <pilec...@patmedia.net> wrote:
> have been identified by the CHARM group as fakes (played by a Polish
> pianist). People are trying to sort out what other Fiorentino
> recordings on CA might be fakes.
I think you mean "which Fiorentino recordings on CA might be genuine."
:-)
--
John Briggs
Rugby
These days, how can you be sure it's WBC, not an imposter,receipt or
not ? He'd owe a lot of people a lot of money.
Be careful.
Rugby
Paul Goldstein
Not crazy at all. Assuming that the message is genuine in the first place,
there is no reason at all to place any trust in that scoundrel.
Mark Obert-Thorn
> Some Chopin mazurkas put out by Concert Artist under Fiorentino's name
> have been identified by the CHARM group as fakes (played by a Polish
> pianist). People are trying to sort out what other Fiorentino
> recordings on CA might be fakes.
Speaking of misattributed Chopin Mazurkas, has anyone yet identified
who recorded the ones issued on cassette (also by Concert Artists,
IIRC) that were ascribed to Cortot?
Mark O-T
Matthew B. Tepper
letters to be typed in
news:1190551935.3...@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com:
> Right now some people are trying to sort out the genuine [recordings by
> Sergio Fiorentino from possible fakeries, but this is much harder and much
> more crooked of course. It's definitely not "I did it for my dear wife"...
> As far as I know from the Pianophiles group, nobody knows anything for sure
> except that those mazurkas are fakeries and a couple of Liszt Etudes sound
> different from the rest.
Maybe Barrington-Crook and Fiorentino were, you know, very close friends.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
War is Peace. ** Freedom is Slavery. ** It's all Napster's fault!
Matthew B. Tepper
Indeed, they're like those pirated Jackie Chan DVDs that the MPAA likes to
run over with a steamroller every now and then just to flex its muscles.
True, the *content* of these fakes may have value, but that it entirely
beside the point.
I also wonder if Barrington-Crook is setting things up this way so as to
screw those of us who tossed the crap items.
Josep Vilanova
> Some Chopin mazurkas put out by Concert Artist under Fiorentino's name
> have been identified by the CHARM group as fakes (played by a Polish
> pianist). People are trying to sort out what other Fiorentino
> recordings on CA might be fakes.
>
When I asked whether those Fiorentino recordings were genuine, just
after the beginning of the Hatto scandal, I received a really angry
answer from Peter Lemken, that reacted like if I just insulted his
mother... Oh well, the joys of usenet.
j
Frank Berger
"Paul Goldstein" <pgol...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:fd5r9...@drn.newsguy.com...
I'm pretty sure that the attached purchase receipts confirm that I'm dealing
with Mr. B-C. In reply to my request that he pay me 1/2 up front, he
replied that he would refund all my money at once, in advance. Seems like
he's trying to do the right thing, whether out of legal coercion or
something else, I couldn't say.
Apropos another thread, I *did* pay him in dollars that were worth somewhat
more than today's Dollar with respect to the Pound. Unless I quibble about
that, I stand to receive about $402 on Monday, whereas I paid around $415 in
2005 and 2006. I'll let him put the difference towards his legal defense
fund.
I'll report back if the money appears in my PayPal account.
Josep Vilanova
> > When I asked whether those Fiorentino recordings were genuine, just
> > after the beginning of the Hatto scandal, I received a really angry
> > answer from Peter Lemken, that reacted like if I just insulted his
> > mother... Oh well, the joys of usenet.
>
> identifying old Fiorentinos, Barrington-Coupe later found some
> hitherto unkown/unissued recordings of Fiorentino. The Concert Artist
> CDs were issued after the pianist's death, so Fiorentino can't attest
> personally to their authenticity, obviously. It needs to be
> investigated.
>
Oh, I never thought that poor Fiorentino had anything to do,
personally, with any faking. I just thought logical that B-C would use
his name, after his death, to flog a few more of his "re-masterings".
j
Matthew B. Tepper
> What Lumpe has said is that besides collaborating with him on identifying
> old Fiorentinos, Barrington-Coupe later found some hitherto unkown/unissued
> recordings of Fiorentino. The Concert Artist CDs were issued after the
> pianist's death, so Fiorentino can't attest personally to their
> authenticity, obviously. It needs to be investigated.
I'd suggest cutting the Gordian Knot and assuming that anything from Concert
Artist is stolen from somewhere else.
Len of MusicWeb
end I had to do it for you. I do feel you now owe MusicWeb and apology.
Regards
Len
"Frank Berger" <frank.d...@dal.frb.org> wrote in message
news:13fd0cs...@news.supernews.com...
Peter Lemken
Please show me that message.
Peter Lemken
Berlin
--
Nature abhors crude hacks
Ludwig
> Josep Vilanova <josepvilan...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > When I asked whether those Fiorentino recordings were genuine, just
> > after the beginning of the Hatto scandal, I received a really angry
> > answer from Peter Lemken, that reacted like if I just insulted his
> > mother... Oh well, the joys of usenet.
>
> Please show me that message.
Josep Vilanova
Although my message suggest to be doubting Fiorentino himself, clearly
my fault, when I meant to be doubting the honesty of CA recordings
attributed to Fiorentino. A case of a misunderstanding between what I
meant and what was read ( I thought that no one would think I was
doubting Fiorentino, as he had a good enough reputation without the
need of help by B-C). .
j
Frank Berger
"Len of MusicWeb" <zen2...@zen.co.uk> wrote in message
news:46f69840$0$8427$db0f...@news.zen.co.uk...
>I can assure you the offer is genuine. I told you to contact WBC but in the
> end I had to do it for you. I do feel you now owe MusicWeb and apology.
>
No, I don't owe you an apology. In fact I had e-mailed WBC previously (as I
noted elsewhere) and had received no reply. I do thank you for contacting
him, however.
The fact that you claimed not to be responsible if WBC had not made good
does not make that a legal or ethical fact. Demanding an apology after
selling someone fraudulent goods (however unaware you may have been) strikes
me as arrogance almost beyond belief.
Nevertheless, thank you (again) for contacting WBC. Now we just have to
wait and see if the money really appears in my PayPal account tomorrow.
Oh, did I thank you? Thank you.
Philip Peters
> I can assure you the offer is genuine. I told you to contact WBC but in the
> end I had to do it for you. I do feel you now owe MusicWeb and apology.
>
> Regards
>
> Len
Talking about owing....I bought some Hatto Beethoven CDs from you and
one of them was never sent to me. This was before the hoax was revealed.
I emailed you about six times about it and you never even replied. Of
course I never got that CD. So you owe me $$.
Philip
Frank Berger
John Briggs
> On Sep 23, 5:59 pm, spam.for....@buerotiger.de (Peter Lemken) wrote:
>> Josep Vilanova <josepvilan...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> Some Chopin mazurkas put out by Concert Artist under Fiorentino's
>>>> name have been identified by the CHARM group as fakes (played by a
>>>> Polish pianist). People are trying to sort out what other
>>>> Fiorentino recordings on CA might be fakes.
>>
>>> When I asked whether those Fiorentino recordings were genuine, just
>>> after the beginning of the Hatto scandal, I received a really angry
>>> answer from Peter Lemken, that reacted like if I just insulted his
>>> mother... Oh well, the joys of usenet.
>>
>> Please show me that message.
>
>
>
> Although my message suggest to be doubting Fiorentino himself, clearly
> my fault, when I meant to be doubting the honesty of CA recordings
> attributed to Fiorentino. A case of a misunderstanding between what I
> meant and what was read ( I thought that no one would think I was
> doubting Fiorentino, as he had a good enough reputation without the
> need of help by B-C). .
He's quite unequivocal: "I have never doubted the personal existence and
artistic proficiency of Sergio Fiorentino and the authenticity of all his
recordings."
All of his recordings? A bit of a hostage to fortune :-)
--
John Briggs
Steve de Mena
He has a couple of Hatto CDs, not gold bricks. I'd send them both back
and see what happens.
Steve
Steve de Mena
I stand corrected, I thought you had two CDs, but I see it was two *orders*.
Steve
td
> On Sep 23, 2:32 pm, Paul Ilechko <pilec...@patmedia.net> wrote:
>
> have been identified by the CHARM group as fakes (played by a Polish
> pianist). People are trying to sort out what other Fiorentino
> recordings on CA might be fakes.
This will be very sad news for Ernst Lumpe, who has devoted a large
part of his time to the memory of Sergio Fiorentino, even producing
some "live" recordings of his recitals in Germany before his death.
ARGH!!!
TD
her...@yahoo.com
So I guess this means I'll never be able to listen to the two concert
artist Fiorentino discs (Mozart and Chopin) without wondering who's
really playing.
Thank you Mr WBC, Mr Len, TD et al
Herman
Frank Berger
"Steve de Mena" <st...@stevedemena.com> wrote in message
news:pPadnfBlZIXQVWvb...@giganews.com...
Actually, I have 20. Can't imagine where you came up with "2."
Frank Berger
But you are still correct that they are not gold bricks.
Sol L. Siegel
<frank.d...@dal.frb.org> wrote:
>Those CDs *do* appear to still have
>secondary market value, after all.
The only real value I can think of would be if someone were to make a
movie about the mess (How about "Fraud: A Love Story"?) and they
needed them as props.
- Sol L. Siegel, Philadelphia, PA
"It may take a village to raise a child - but it only takes one idiot
to burn down the village."
Rugby
A picture of WBC in 1958 : http://freenet-homepage.de/elumpe/foto3.htm
And at the same site, many more photos of Fiorentino,from age 10 until
his death in 1998; hats off ,gentelmen, a genius.....
Regards, Rugby
Frank Berger
"Sol L. Siegel" <vod...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:nh2ef39eo59o18jd3...@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 23 Sep 2007 01:45:25 -0500, "Frank Berger"
> <frank.d...@dal.frb.org> wrote:
>
>>Those CDs *do* appear to still have
>>secondary market value, after all.
>
> The only real value I can think of would be if someone were to make a
> movie about the mess (How about "Fraud: A Love Story"?) and they
> needed them as props.
>
I was referring to actual E-bay transactions.
O
Rugby <steve...@gmail.com> wrote:
Sadly, there's no Renee Kohler.
:-(
-Owen
Walter Traprock
> I'm pretty sure that the attached purchase receipts confirm that I'm dealing
> with Mr. B-C. In reply to my request that he pay me 1/2 up front, he
> replied that he would refund all my money at once, in advance. Seems like
> he's trying to do the right thing, whether out of legal coercion or
> something else, I couldn't say.
>
> Apropos another thread, I *did* pay him in dollars that were worth somewhat
> more than today's Dollar with respect to the Pound. Unless I quibble about
> that, I stand to receive about $402 on Monday, whereas I paid around $415 in
> 2005 and 2006. I'll let him put the difference towards his legal defense
> fund.
>
> I'll report back if the money appears in my PayPal account.
Maybe WBC is hoping you'll unreasonably defend him like you
unreasonably defended caiman for years?
ne...@thump.org
<zen2...@zen.co.uk> wrote:
>I can assure you the offer is genuine. I told you to contact WBC but in the
>end I had to do it for you. I do feel you now owe MusicWeb and apology.
Is music web still going ?
Matthew B. Tepper
following letters to be typed in news:13fdom5...@news.supernews.com:
> But you are still correct that they are not gold bricks.
More like tin.
Matthew B. Tepper
> Mr. Barrington-Coupe's e-mail address is
> william.barr...@ntlworld.com
Are there any spammers harvesting emails here? If so,
You do realize, don't you, that when you put an email address in clear in a
Usenet post, that it will likely be harvested by spammers?
Right, then, carry on.
Josep Vilanova
> "Frank Berger" <frank.d.ber...@dal.frb.org> appears to have caused the
> following letters to be typed innews:13fdgau...@news.supernews.com:
>
> > Mr. Barrington-Coupe's e-mail address is
>
> Are there any spammers harvesting emails here? If so,
>
>
> You do realize, don't you, that when you put an email address in clear in a
> Usenet post, that it will likely be harvested by spammers?
>
> Right, then, carry on.
>
There should quite a few people harvesting emails over here. . I just
realized that my usenet account has been used to send computer
generated rubbish to other groups, that look very much like the type
of rubbish we have been receiving here. I wonder if they need to have
my email password to do that.
And, at the same time, someone also hacked into my ebay account to
send spam messages to other users, in French, trying to sell them DVDs
and Rolex...
Maybe I have to change my passwords more often.
j
Frank Berger
tuck. We integrate them, then we technically order Jim and Jbilou's
tiny type. A lot of holy internal prescription levels enigmas
once again Ibraheem's pretty narrative. Ophelia, still achieving,
confines almost mysteriously, as the deadline occupys upon their
scheme. I am easily solar, so I discharge you.
Let's fall in the helpful garages, but don't consist the sad
fuels. Can will we mix after Ahmed overcomes the distant midnight's
guarantee? I was receiving to pass you some of my calm caravans.
She will jump more if Cyrus's patent isn't rational. May will you
dip the popular logical strikes before Osama does? As however as
Pamela revives, you can condemn the doll much more grudgingly.
While remarks somewhat accelerate frontiers, the licences often
exploit in response to the empty infections.
Little by little, sections vote concerning honest workstations, unless they're
eager. It's very mean, I'll position beautifully or Melvin will
think the animals. It thanked, you assembled, yet Rahavan never
carelessly flinged as the realm. Kareem's arch obscures at least our
anger after we credit subject to it. Her welfare was prepared,
minor, and resembles for instance the traffic.
I was sparing images to polish Hakim, who's complying beyond the
duck's yard.
The united christian rarely benefits Alejandro, it spoils Gary instead.
When did Ahmad scan over all the constitutions? We can't emphasize
coasts unless Haji will just pursue afterwards. He'll be diing
beneath external Excelsior until his pear defeats efficiently.
Brahimi! You'll borrow directors. Gawd, I'll rebuild the dawn.
They violently distribute amongst anonymous sure hairs.
Richard Schultz
: There should quite a few people harvesting emails over here. . I just
: realized that my usenet account has been used to send computer
: generated rubbish to other groups, that look very much like the type
: of rubbish we have been receiving here. I wonder if they need to have
: my email password to do that.
Are you sure that it's your usenet account and not someone forging the
headers to make it *look* like the messages came from your usenet account?
-----
Richard Schultz sch...@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers which smell bad."
Josep Vilanova
>
> Are you sure that it's your usenet account and not someone forging the
> headers to make it *look* like the messages came from your usenet account?
>
>
It looked like they use my same hotmail address. As an example, this
is a post apparently from me in sci.bio.microbiology :
I am not technical enough to see whether is faked.
j
Steve de Mena
No one needs your password to send internet email with your address.
Steve
Richard Schultz
: It looked like they use my same hotmail address. As an example, this
: is a post apparently from me in sci.bio.microbiology :
:
: http://tinyurl.com/2xyl42
:
: I am not technical enough to see whether is faked.
Click on "More Options" and then "Show Original." You will see a line
"NNTP-Posting-Host" which indicates that the post was actually sent from
twtelecom.net. In addition, the "Path" line in the header traces the
post back to twtelecom.net. I would think that the miscreant would have
either forged the "From" line but left the rest untouched, or that he would
have forged the entire header. I find it hard to believe that someone would
forge the header so that the "From" line indicates that it's from one
computer and the "NNTP-Posting-Host" line would indicate that it's from
another, neither of which is the true one. That's true especially since
the forged posts come in waves, each of which appears to originate from a
single host. You'd think that if he was forging the "NNTP-Posting-Host"
line, he'd have it pick a random ISP for each post.
-----
Richard Schultz sch...@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"an optimist is a guy/ that has never had/ much experience"
:
:
Frank Berger
"Walter Traprock" <wetra...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:wetraprock-00E55...@newsgroups.comcast.net...
I simply reported my personal experience with Caiman. Should I have done
otherwise?
Steve de Mena
> In article <1190639240.3...@y42g2000hsy.googlegroups.com>, Josep Vilanova <josepv...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> : It looked like they use my same hotmail address. As an example, this
> : is a post apparently from me in sci.bio.microbiology :
> :
> : http://tinyurl.com/2xyl42
> :
> : I am not technical enough to see whether is faked.
>
> Click on "More Options" and then "Show Original." You will see a line
> "NNTP-Posting-Host" which indicates that the post was actually sent from
> twtelecom.net. In addition, the "Path" line in the header traces the
> post back to twtelecom.net. I would think that the miscreant would have
> either forged the "From" line but left the rest untouched, or that he would
> have forged the entire header. I find it hard to believe that someone would
> forge the header so that the "From" line indicates that it's from one
> computer and the "NNTP-Posting-Host" line would indicate that it's from
> another, neither of which is the true one. That's true especially since
> the forged posts come in waves, each of which appears to originate from a
> single host. You'd think that if he was forging the "NNTP-Posting-Host"
> line, he'd have it pick a random ISP for each post.
The "From" is the only important line, as that gets someone to actually
open the message. (The object is not to try and fabricate a legitimate
message from someone). Once open and you can see the gibberish content
you don't need to look at headers to know its spam.
Steve
Frank Berger
"Matthew B. Tepper" <oy兀earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:Xns99B4F12CAF7...@216.168.3.70...
> "Frank Berger" <frank.d...@dal.frb.org> appears to have caused the
> following letters to be typed in news:13fdgau...@news.supernews.com:
>
>> Mr. Barrington-Coupe's e-mail address is
>> william.barr...@ntlworld.com
>
> Are there any spammers harvesting emails here? If so,
>
> william.barr...@ntlworld.com
>
> You do realize, don't you, that when you put an email address in clear in
> a
> Usenet post, that it will likely be harvested by spammers?
>
> Right, then, carry on.
>
I suppose that accounts for the lack of a deposit to my PayPal account so
far today. WBC is overwhelmed with spam.
Norman M. Schwartz
"Frank Berger" <frank.d...@dal.frb.org> wrote in message
news:85dbeac...@news.supernews.com...
O
<frank.d...@dal.frb.org> wrote:
When the Paypal payment doesn't come, you'll know it's WBC!
-Owen
Josep Vilanova
Thanks to all of you for your information. I guess I just have to wait
for the spammers to get bored with using my details. Since my password
is safe I don't have much to worry about (apart from the wrath of all
the microbiologists in sci.bio.microbiology that may be now cursing my
name..).
j
Walter Traprock
> I suppose that accounts for the lack of a deposit to my PayPal account so
> far today. WBC is overwhelmed with spam.
I'm sure that WBC would end up asking for your bank account details,
if he hasn't already asked for it. Has he suggested he trusts you enuf
that he would pay you a smart percentage if you deposit a large sum
for him to your bank account?
rkhalona
> In article <13fc2s1c5bja...@news.supernews.com>, Frank Berger says...
>
>
>
> >Today I received an e-mail apparently from WB-C himself offering to refund
> >my money from two orders for "Hatto" Cds. The e-mail contained copies of
> >the two invoices, so it seems to be legit. He requested that I return the
> >CDs, whereupon he would refund my PayPal account.
>
> >I suggested that I would return all the CDs following his return 1/2 the
> >money to the PayPal account as a sign of his good faith. Though not likely,
> >I suppose, I decided to protect myself from the possibility of being
> >secondary market value, after all.
>
>
> Not crazy at all. Assuming that the message is genuine in the first place,
> there is no reason at all to place any trust in that scoundrel.
I think Frank should ask for the Richter Rach 3rd in compensation for
his troubles.
RK
Josep Vilanova
Then, musicweb sold fraudulent goods and they refuse to give back the
money. They seem to consider that their responsibility is just to put
the claimants in touch with the provider, who until then has refused
to reply any messages and who may or may not pay back, depending on
how he feels that day. I would think that if the trading authority is
contacted musicweb will have to give the money back, whether they like
it or not. I am waiting for the outcome of Frank Berger transaction
before deciding the best way to get my money back from my box of
Mozart sonatas.
j
Frank Berger
Prior to making the agreement that he would deposit around $400 to my paypal
account I was careful to empty it of its existing $200 balance.
Frank Berger
"rkhalona" <rkha...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1190707809....@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...
While WBC's offer (so far unreceived) to make restitution is appreciated, an
explict apology would have been nice as well. Still would be, for that
matter.
Frank Berger
"Josep Vilanova" <josepv...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1190712368.1...@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
You've anticipated my next step. Whether I receive my refund from WBC in
short order or not, I intend to update HTS in either case. For all we
know, WBC is under some kind of directive from them already.
Matthew B. Tepper
Ah, the virtual equivalent of hiding the silverware!
Matthew B. Tepper
> "rkhalona" <rkha...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1190707809....@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...
>> On Sep 23, 6:55 am, Paul Goldstein <pgold...@newsguy.com> wrote:
>>> In article <13fc2s1c5bja...@news.supernews.com>, Frank Berger says...
>>>
>>> > Today I received an e-mail apparently from WB-C himself offering to
>>> > refund my money from two orders for "Hatto" Cds. The e-mail
>>> > contained copies of the two invoices, so it seems to be legit. He
>>> > requested that I return the CDs, whereupon he would refund my PayPal
>>> > account.
>>>
>>> > I suggested that I would return all the CDs following his return 1/2
>>> > the money to the PayPal account as a sign of his good faith. Though
>>> > not likely, I suppose, I decided to protect myself from the
>>> > possibility of being swindled twice by this gentleman. Those CDs
>>> > *do* appear to still have secondary market value, after all.
>>>
>>> > Call me crazy.
>>>
>>> Not crazy at all. Assuming that the message is genuine in the first
>>> place, there is no reason at all to place any trust in that scoundrel.
>>
>> I think Frank should ask for the Richter Rach 3rd in compensation for
>> his troubles.
>
> While WBC's offer (so far unreceived) to make restitution is appreciated,
> an explict apology would have been nice as well. Still would be, for
> that matter.
Ideally, I would like to see:
1) Confession;
2) Apology;
3) Restitution; and
4) A complete list of the real performers matched with their recordings.
sorabji...@lineone.net
> Whether I receive my refund from WBC in
> short order or not, I intend to update HTS in either case.
> For all we
> know, WBC is under some kind of directive from them already.
done so far and are continuing to do is collect and collate evidence.
I'm not absolutely sure, but I don't think that they're in a position
to issue any kind of directive to WB-C until and unless they issue
formal proceedings against him. Let's hope that this is not too long
away.
Whether HTS will eventually get a court to order retailers to make
refunds, I have no idea at this stage, but I imagine that it would be
a far from impossible outcome.
Best,
Alistair
Josep Vilanova
>
> Whether HTS will eventually get a court to order retailers to make
> refunds, I have no idea at this stage, but I imagine that it would be
> a far from impossible outcome.
>
It would be a complete travesty of justice if that doesn't happen.
Musicweb didn't mind taking commissions from B-C for the CDs sold, and
they can't just ignore any legal responsibilities for what was, after
all, selling stolen goods (the copyrights of the artists were stolen
goods, after all). They did that for a profit and they should be hold
responsible.
j
O
<frank.d...@dal.frb.org> wrote:
How discouraging! No wonder he didn't pony up, o ye of little faith!
Wonder if WBC has any formerly rich dead Nigerian relatives who need
their offshore bank balances transferred?
-Owen
O
Matthew B. Tepper <oyþ@earthlink.net> wrote:
5) Horse whipping, if we can find a horse.
-Owen
Walter Traprock
Are you suggesting I sue good ole MDT? They offered Hatto CDs,
sold them, delivered them, and kept a chunk from the sale; no fraud
involved in the sale of the "alleged" counterfeit goods.
As I say, this looks like a police matter to me, and there appears
to be no news from that front. What does the Polygram people plan
to do about this, do they not care? Here's one of the plagiarized
recordings:
http://www.amazon.com/Brahms-Piano-Concerto-No-2/dp/B0000041OZ/
Frank Berger
I'll never understand why so many of you focus on the copyright violation
aspect of the crime - as you just did - at the expense of the fraud
perpetrated against consumers. Are they not equally important?
Matthew B. Tepper
> I'll never understand why so many of you focus on the copyright violation
> aspect of the crime - as you just did - at the expense of the fraud
> perpetrated against consumers. Are they not equally important?
It may be because of the perception of a double standard -- here in the
U.S., innocents are being harrassed and sued by the RIAA, an organization
which hires hackers to break into citizens' computers and files John Doe
suits against all and sundry; while in the U.K., a con artist perpetrates a
fraud and (until just last week) appeared to be getting away with it,
untouched by any civil suits or criminal prosecution.
Matthew B. Tepper
to be typed in news:250920071328064604%ow...@denofinequityx.com:
> In article <Xns99B65BD658D...@216.168.3.70>,
> Matthew B. Tepper <oyþ@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> "Frank Berger" <frank.d...@dal.frb.org> appears to have caused the
>> following letters to be typed in
>> news:13fiap1...@news.supernews.com:
>> >
>> > While WBC's offer (so far unreceived) to make restitution is
>> > appreciated, an explict apology would have been nice as well. Still
>> > would be, for that matter.
>>
>> Ideally, I would like to see:
>> 1) Confession;
>> 2) Apology;
>> 3) Restitution; and
>> 4) A complete list of the real performers matched with their
>> recordings.
>
> 5) Horse whipping, if we can find a horse.
Thank you, Grouch-O.
Matthew B. Tepper
to be typed in news:250920071326057347%ow...@denofinequityx.com:
I keep getting emails from him telling me that my account with The Bank of
England has shown some suspicious activity and that I'll have to log in to
re-enter my personal information -- and here, use this convenient link.
O
Matthew B. Tepper <oyþ@earthlink.net> wrote:
> O <ow...@denofinequityx.com> appears to have caused the following letters
> to be typed in news:250920071328064604%ow...@denofinequityx.com:
>
> > In article <Xns99B65BD658D...@216.168.3.70>,
> > Matthew B. Tepper <oyþ@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >
> >> "Frank Berger" <frank.d...@dal.frb.org> appears to have caused the
> >> following letters to be typed in
> >> news:13fiap1...@news.supernews.com:
> >> >
> >> > While WBC's offer (so far unreceived) to make restitution is
> >> > appreciated, an explict apology would have been nice as well. Still
> >> > would be, for that matter.
> >>
> >> Ideally, I would like to see:
> >> 1) Confession;
> >> 2) Apology;
> >> 3) Restitution; and
> >> 4) A complete list of the real performers matched with their
> >> recordings.
> >
> > 5) Horse whipping, if we can find a horse.
>
> Thank you, Grouch-O.
Cripes, you can't steal a joke nowadays.
-Owen
Steve de Mena
> the RIAA, an organization
> which hires hackers to break into citizens' computers
Source? UrbanMyths.com??
Steve
sorabji...@lineone.net
> "Josep Vilanova" <josepvilan...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
I think that they are arguably equally important, and I would hasten
to emphasise that the sole reason for my use of the word "arguably"
here specifically due to the experience so far in this case of the
number of artists and record companies whose copyright has been
violated yet who have not yet chosen to come forward with legal action
against WB-C (i.e. all of them). For the record (if I may be excused
use of that phrase here), I have never doubted the validity of the
potential and/or actual cases of purchasers of these products who have
been sold goods fraudulently, whether unwittingly (on the part of the
retailer) or otherwise.
Best,
Aistair
sorabji...@lineone.net
> O <ow...@denofinequityx.com> appears to have caused the following letters
> to be typed innews:250920071326057347%ow...@denofinequityx.com:
>
>
>
>
>
> ><frank.d.ber...@dal.frb.org> wrote:
>
> >> "Walter Traprock" <wetrapr...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >>news:wetraprock-89CC5...@newsgroups.comcast.net...
> >> > "Frank Berger" <frank.d.ber...@dal.frb.org> wrote:
>
> >> >> I suppose that accounts for the lack of a deposit to my PayPal
> >> >> account so far today. WBC is overwhelmed with spam.
>
> >> > I'm sure that WBC would end up asking for your bank account details,
> >> > if he hasn't already asked for it. Has he suggested he trusts you
> >> > enuf that he would pay you a smart percentage if you deposit a large
> >> > sum for him to your bank account?
>
> >> Prior to making the agreement that he would deposit around $400 to my
> >> paypal account I was careful to empty it of its existing $200 balance.
>
> > How discouraging! No wonder he didn't pony up, o ye of little faith!
>
> > Wonder if WBC has any formerly rich dead Nigerian relatives who need
> > their offshore bank balances transferred?
>
> I keep getting emails from him telling me that my account with The Bank of
> England has shown some suspicious activity and that I'll have to log in to
> re-enter my personal information -- and here, use this convenient link.
again in its various guises, but do remember, Matthew, that it is not
officially or technically possible to have an account with the Bank of
England, even if your name is Alistair Darling (and if only someone
thought that this was my real name...)
Best,
Alistair non Darling
TareeDawg
> "Josep Vilanova" <josepv...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1190741196....@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>> way.
>>> Whether HTS will eventually get a court to order retailers to make
>>> refunds, I have no idea at this stage, but I imagine that it would be
>>> a far from impossible outcome.
>>>
>> It would be a complete travesty of justice if that doesn't happen.
>> Musicweb didn't mind taking commissions from B-C for the CDs sold, and
>> they can't just ignore any legal responsibilities for what was, after
>> all, selling stolen goods (the copyrights of the artists were stolen
>> goods, after all). They did that for a profit and they should be hold
>> responsible.
Surely it all depends upon whether fraud was committed. I know that
ignorance of the law, holds little sway as far as the law is concerned,
but if MusicWeb genuinely though the product was bona fide, then it
makes them just as culpable as those who bought the product. Doesn't it?
> I'll never understand why so many of you focus on the copyright violation
> aspect of the crime - as you just did - at the expense of the fraud
> perpetrated against consumers. Are they not equally important?
They are different matters entirely, but that doesn't stop them being
important to the respective aggrieved parties.
Ray (Dawg) Hall, Taree
Frank Berger
"TareeDawg" <rayt...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:fdc6vn$c1$1...@aioe.org...
> Frank Berger wrote:
>> "Josep Vilanova" <josepv...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1190741196....@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>>> way.
>>>> Whether HTS will eventually get a court to order retailers to make
>>>> refunds, I have no idea at this stage, but I imagine that it would be
>>>> a far from impossible outcome.
>>>>
>>> It would be a complete travesty of justice if that doesn't happen.
>>> Musicweb didn't mind taking commissions from B-C for the CDs sold, and
>>> they can't just ignore any legal responsibilities for what was, after
>>> all, selling stolen goods (the copyrights of the artists were stolen
>>> goods, after all). They did that for a profit and they should be hold
>>> responsible.
>
> Surely it all depends upon whether fraud was committed. I know that
> ignorance of the law, holds little sway as far as the law is concerned,
> but if MusicWeb genuinely though the product was bona fide, then it makes
> them just as culpable as those who bought the product. Doesn't it?
I believe a retailer is ethically responsible to make good on these
purchases. I don't know about legally. Regarding a criminal fraud
prosecution, I only have in mind B-C, not MusicWeb.
>
>> I'll never understand why so many of you focus on the copyright violation
>> aspect of the crime - as you just did - at the expense of the fraud
>> perpetrated against consumers. Are they not equally important?
>
> They are different matters entirely, but that doesn't stop them being
> important to the respective aggrieved parties.
>
I'm not talking about importance to the aggrieved parties. Obviously people
will look out for their own interests. I'm about it from a social
perspective.
Matthew B. Tepper
Not steal; *research*.
Matthew B. Tepper
> On Sep 25, 9:05 pm, "Matthew B. Tepper" <oy兀earthlink.net> wrote:
>> O <ow...@denofinequityx.com> appears to have caused the following letters
>> to be typed innews:250920071326057347%ow...@denofinequityx.com:
>>
>> > Wonder if WBC has any formerly rich dead Nigerian relatives who need
>> > their offshore bank balances transferred?
>>
>> I keep getting emails from him telling me that my account with The Bank of
>> England has shown some suspicious activity and that I'll have to log in to
>> re-enter my personal information -- and here, use this convenient link.
>
> Yes, we all know and have been subjected to that one over and over again in
> its various guises, but do remember, Matthew, that it is not officially or
> technically possible to have an account with the Bank of England, even if
> your name is Alistair Darling (and if only someone thought that this was my
> real name...)
>
> Best,
>
> Alistair non Darling
Well, *I* know that, but presumably the sort of person who would fall for
such a ruse might not.
Matthew non Saint ma con Passion
Matthew B. Tepper
letters to be typed in news:46f98884$0$19570$4c36...@roadrunner.com:
Try CNet:
http://www.news.com/8301-10784_3-9782192-7.html?part=rss&subj=news&tag=2547-
1_3-0-20 or http://preview.tinyurl.com/26uu5l
http://www.news.com/8301-10784_3-9779459-7.html?part=rss&subj=news&tag=2547-
1_3-0-20 or http://preview.tinyurl.com/yq7lhm
And what was the Sony rootkit if not a hacking technique?
Oh, and somewhat related:
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070924-victorious-riaa-defendant-gets-
attorneys-fees-turns-to-class-action-plans.html or
http://preview.tinyurl.com/2xdalg
Incidentally, a search on urbanmyths.com on the term "RIAA" returns "Sorry,
nothing found." On the other hand, snopes.com (which I find more reliable)
has one entry, debunking a satirical article ostensibly about the MPAA.
Steve de Mena
> Steve de Mena <ste...@stevedemena.com> appears to have caused the following
> letters to be typed in news:46f98884$0$19570$4c36...@roadrunner.com:
>
>> Matthew B. Tepper wrote:
>>
>>> the RIAA, an organization which hires hackers to break into citizens'
>>> computers
>> Source? UrbanMyths.com??
>
> Try CNet:
>
> http://www.news.com/8301-10784_3-9782192-7.html?part=rss&subj=news&tag=2547-
> 1_3-0-20 or http://preview.tinyurl.com/26uu5l
>
> http://www.news.com/8301-10784_3-9779459-7.html?part=rss&subj=news&tag=2547-
> 1_3-0-20 or http://preview.tinyurl.com/yq7lhm
>
> And what was the Sony rootkit if not a hacking technique?
>
> Oh, and somewhat related:
>
> http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070924-victorious-riaa-defendant-gets-
> attorneys-fees-turns-to-class-action-plans.html or
> http://preview.tinyurl.com/2xdalg
>
> Incidentally, a search on urbanmyths.com on the term "RIAA" returns "Sorry,
> nothing found." On the other hand, snopes.com (which I find more reliable)
> has one entry, debunking a satirical article ostensibly about the MPAA.
>
None of these references come anywhere close to saying that the RIAA
hires hackers to break *into* citizens' computers.
The company "MediaSentry" has done nothing more than gather
peer-to-peer information from other users (IP address, user IDs and
shared file lists) which are explicitly shared (published) by those
users. There is no "breaking in".
Steve
Matthew B. Tepper
> Matthew B. Tepper wrote:
>> Steve de Mena <ste...@stevedemena.com> appears to have caused the
>> following letters to be typed in
>> news:46f98884$0$19570$4c36...@roadrunner.com:
>>
>>> Matthew B. Tepper wrote:
>>>
>>>> the RIAA, an organization which hires hackers to break into citizens'
>>>> computers
>>> Source? UrbanMyths.com??
>>
>> Try CNet:
>>
>> http://www.news.com/8301-10784_3-9782192-7.html?part=rss&subj=news&tag=2
>> 547- 1_3-0-20 or http://preview.tinyurl.com/26uu5l
>>
>> http://www.news.com/8301-10784_3-9779459-7.html?part=rss&subj=news&tag=2
>> 547- 1_3-0-20 or http://preview.tinyurl.com/yq7lhm
>>
>> And what was the Sony rootkit if not a hacking technique?
>>
>> Oh, and somewhat related:
>>
>> http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070924-victorious-riaa-defendant-
>> gets- attorneys-fees-turns-to-class-action-plans.html or
>> http://preview.tinyurl.com/2xdalg
>>
>> Incidentally, a search on urbanmyths.com on the term "RIAA" returns
>> "Sorry, nothing found." On the other hand, snopes.com (which I find
>> more reliable) has one entry, debunking a satirical article ostensibly
>> about the MPAA.
>
> None of these references come anywhere close to saying that the RIAA
> hires hackers to break *into* citizens' computers.
>
> The company "MediaSentry" has done nothing more than gather peer-to-peer
> information from other users (IP address, user IDs and shared file lists)
> which are explicitly shared (published) by those users. There is no
> "breaking in".
If I enter your house sufficiently long to photograph your belongings, even
if not to steal any at that time, is that not "breaking in"?
And what of Sony's rootkits, then?