Liszt's most difficult solo piano piece ?

[Dufus]

You be the judge.

Leslie Howard given a boost in his recording of Liszt's " Grosse
Concert-Phantasie uber Spanische Weisen " :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zKHcl_WEK4

Per the YT poster ( a very knowledgable poster ) :

" Performed by the interminably boring Leslie Howard. As such, I
increased the speed by 50%. Other than a couple of short, ornamental
passages of filigree which went above tempo, this is the actual marked
tempo. In fact, a few major passages are still below the written
tempo, despite the 150% speed. This is basically just a joke, and I'll
probably remove it in a while. But yes, this piece is definitely more
difficult than the Meyerbeer or Berlioz transcriptions, or the S. 137
Etudes. The original S. 140 Paganini Etudes are probably the only
thing that really challenge this."

Dufus

[John Wiser]

"Dufus" <steve...@gmail.com> wrote in message:

> You be the judge.
>
> Leslie Howard given a boost in his recording of Liszt's " Grosse
> Concert-Phantasie uber Spanische Weisen " :
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zKHcl_WEK4

Certainly very difficult to listen to. Edifying though.

jdw

[John Wiser]

"John Wiser" <cee...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:mlwMs.50697$uU.3...@newsfe11.iad...

Especially in the morning.

> jdw
>

[Dufus]

>On Jan 25, 8:09 am, "John Wiser" <ceec...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > Certainly very difficult to listen to. Edifying though.
> Especially in the morning.

I had thought this one was the most " difficult " ( although I suppose
honorable mention should go to the B minor Sonata ) :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZIKFrAa5EY

Listening to these 2 should cleanse the pallet for better music rest
of the day. I love the smell of trashy Liszt in the morning.

Dufus

[SPAM- @xs4all.nl HvT]

It is said that Marie d'Agoult was fed up with Liszt's talent for trash -
that it was one of the reasons why they finally grew apart. Even when played
well these fantaisies are very difficult to listen to. The B minor sonata is
different stuff. It's a monument, although not one I want to hear too
often - but the same goes for the Hammerklavier.

Henk

[Dufus]

>On Jan 25, 1:32 pm, "HvT" <hvtuijl- SPAM- @xs4all.nl> wrote:
> The B minor sonata is
> different stuff. It's a monument, although not one I want to hear too
> often - but the same goes for the Hammerklavier.

Agreed. We do need the occaisional " pallete cleanser " , though,
although perhaps gelatto works better ; or a Concannon Vineyards
"Crimson and Clover " petite sirah -cab - zin blend I recommend
( classier than these 2 Liszt ) .

[SPAM- @xs4all.nl HvT]

<g> Hamelin is my favourite musical 'pallete cleanser' - in particular his
etudes. In other matters new herring (no onions, please!) does the trick.

Henk

[William Sommerwerck]

"Palate cleanser"

Turpentine and odorless mineral spirits are "pallete cleansers".

[SPAM- @xs4all.nl HvT]

William Sommerwerck wrote:
> "Palate cleanser"
>
> Turpentine and odorless mineral spirits are "pallete cleansers".

<g> Many thanks!

Henk

[Dufus]

>On Jan 26, 11:01 am, "HvT" <hvtuijl- SPAM- @xs4all.nl> wrote:
>In other matters new herring (no onions, please!) does the trick.
>

I fondly recall ( at a hotel in Berlin in 1998 ) a gleaming silver ,
large herring filet wrapped around a sweet , gherkin pickle , with a
slice of a soft liver sausage and strong black coffee --- from their
breakfast buffet ( ! ). Both a " palate" and I suspect " pallete"
cleanser. Got my day going !

Also at a cafe on the WittenbergerPlatz, a wonderful meal of large
herring filets ( much larger than we see here in the Midwest USA ) in
a sour-cream white sauce with capers, cucumber, and perhaps some
onion, on lettuce with good bread. The wine pairing was a challenge ,
but went with a riesling kabinett.

Same trip I was embarrassed by an Ugly American couple in Prague who
complained about a tour's wonderful evening soiree we attended , put
on by local opera singers, highlights from various Mozart operas. They
groused loudly enough to be heard our European companions that the
evening was a waste because all the "songs" were in German, not
English.

Dufus

[cmling]

Wittenbergplatz.

--
Charles Milton Ling
Vienna, Austria

[Dufus]

>On Jan 27, 6:03 pm, cmling <cml...@teleweb.at> wrote:
>
> Wittenbergplatz.
\

Yes, sorry. Very near the KaDeWe, our hotel across from An der Urania
and the wrecked car .

Dufus

[kevin....@gmail.com]

Rondo fantastique
Sonata Quasi ana Fantasia
Ballade in b minor
Grandes Etude no.5

[Bozo]

>On Tuesday, January 26, 2016 at 5:34:58 PM UTC-6, kevin....@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Rondo fantastique
> Sonata Quasi ana Fantasia
> Ballade in b minor
> Grandes Etude no.5

Thanks for the suggestions.

With scores :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTpUJxXPhnI ( Rondo fantastique, Lisitsa )

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ahN-Z4KMdg ( Grandes Etude No. 5, Hamelin )

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgEI6LBcGts ( B minor Ballade, Cziffra )

[JohnGavin]

On Tuesday, January 26, 2016 at 10:22:17 PM UTC-5, Bozo wrote:
> >On Tuesday, January 26, 2016 at 5:34:58 PM UTC-6, kevin....@gmail.com wrote:
> >

>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ahN-Z4KMdg ( Grandes Etude No. 5, Hamelin )
>

Just a hunch - I think Kevin might be referring to the 5th Transcendental Etude "Feux Follets" which I would say is far more technically difficult than the 5th Paganini.

[laraine]

And the Mazeppa is extremely hard to play quickly.
(True, many play these, but that doesn't mean they're not hard.)

There is also a set of etudes, I believe a version of
the Transcendental etudes, but of greater difficulty.

The Mephisto Waltz seems rather hard technically too, at least
as much as the Sonata.

C.

[HT]

> The Mephisto Waltz seems rather hard technically too, at least
> as much as the Sonata.

The worst trainwrecks I heard in live recitals were in the leggiero molto at the end.

Henk

[Bozo]

>On Wednesday, January 27, 2016 at 2:35:25 PM UTC-6, HT wrote:
> The worst trainwrecks I heard in live recitals were in the leggiero molto at the end.

Agreed. Although I don't believe I had heard the "Rondo fantastique" before ; even Lisitsa dropped some notes.

I recall Artur Rubinstein in Minneapolis , probably 1968, in airplane hangar - like Northrup Auditorium, have a really bad night with an audibly huge clunker in the first mov.of "Appassionata " and also in the following "Fantasiestucke", and then after intermission, come completely off the rails at the end of Mephisto # 1, the last work on the programme, complete disaster. Of course, standing ovation , but he came back the very next year, unusual so soon, with an all-Chopin programme , i.e. he knew.

[Andy Evans]

Someone mentioned Mazeppa earlier. Here's a good piano roll from Emil von Sauer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHjU0aj7J_k

Unless he painstakingly punched all the holes in the right places .......

[Tony]

On Friday, January 25, 2013 at 3:44:00 PM UTC+2, Bozo wrote:
>
> Grosse Concert-Phantasie uber Spanische Weisen " :
>

Last year I uploaded a video of Pletnev playing the tail end of this piece

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcLBTPHrQu8

[Andy Evans]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfkvDR87dZQ

Here's Ervin Nyíregyházi playing Mazeppa on a piano roll. How come these piano roll performances are so technically good in terms of the pianism? Were they speeded up at all or was this exactly how they were played and recorded?

[gggg...@gmail.com]

The following on piano roll limitations may be of interest:

https://researchdirect.westernsydney.edu.au/islandora/object/uws%3A51228

[Alan Dawes]

In article <8ddbb58f-1033-4ffd...@googlegroups.com>,

Or not! This is an analysis of the limitations of one piano roll made on a
particular machine in Russia in 1906. In the following 30 years the
technology became much more advanced including much improved recording of
dynamic range.

Alan

--
alan....@argonet.co.uk
alan....@riscos.org
Using an ARMX6

[Rebuild Queens Hall London]

Does anyone posting on this question actually play the piano ?. If they have the technique and stamina to play difficult Liszt they would know it depends on how your hand is built and what you find difficult is the answer. It varies from pianist to pianist what passage work is difficult. I think the Don Juan fantasy is difficult but some non pianists think the Grand Gallop Chromatique is difficult just because it's played fast but lies comfortably under the hands. I wish people wont comment who don't play the piano but look at how fast a pianist plays and how much sweat they produce to determine how difficult a piece is.

[gggg...@gmail.com]

On Friday, January 25, 2013 at 5:44:00 AM UTC-8, Bozo wrote:

The following discussion may be of interest:

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=3568.0

[gggg...@gmail.com]

On Friday, January 25, 2013 at 5:44:00 AM UTC-8, Bozo wrote:

- Not everything that is more difficult is more meritorious.

Thomas Aquinas

[Bozo]

>On Tuesday, May 26, 2020 at 5:09:33 AM UTC-5, Rebuild Queens Hall London wrote:
>. I wish people wont comment who don't play the piano but look at how fast a pianist plays and how much >sweat they produce to determine how difficult a piece is.

I dont know , but wonder if the "Tannhauser" Overture, "Norma" Fantasy, and several of the Beethoven symphony transcriptions might qualify.I dont play any of them, on the piano.

[Owen]

My son, who is a professional pianist, told me once that Liszt's music
has a certain style, meaning that the difficult parts are often repeated
in Liszt's other works. So if you learn one Liszt piece pretty well,
you've already solved a lot of other challenges that are in his other
pieces, which equips you to learn other works with less effort, once
you've mastered his style.

I suppose this could be said of most any composer, but Liszt's music
does have a certain homogeneity which is not found in other composers,
notably Chopin.

-Owen

[Ricardo Jimenez]

On Wed, 27 May 2020 10:12:54 -0400, Owen <in...@clipboardinc.com>
wrote:

Is it possible that a pianist who has mastered all of the Chopin and
Liszt etudes but still run out of gas in longer works like the
Hammerkllavier fugue or Liszt sonata? Have you noticed pianists who
can play complete etude sets in public taking a minute or so after a
difficult one before going on the the next one in the sequence?

[JohnGavin]

Keeping in mind that Liszt’s complete piano music takes up 99 CDs - an honest inquiry would be quite an undertaking. A good guess would be the first version of the Etudes d’Execution Transcendente which everyone seems to bypass.

[Néstor Castiglione]

On Wednesday, May 27, 2020 at 7:13:02 AM UTC-7, Owen wrote:
> I suppose this could be said of most any composer, but Liszt's music
> does have a certain homogeneity which is not found in other composers,
> notably Chopin.
>
> -Owen

Homogeneity of style? Unevenness in quality, yes, but Liszt was anything but homogeneous. Chopin, on the other hand...

[Bozo]

>On Wednesday, May 27, 2020 at 5:06:33 PM UTC-5, JohnGavin wrote:
> Keeping in mind that Liszt’s complete piano music takes up 99 CDs - an honest inquiry would be quite an >undertaking. A good guess would be the first version of the Etudes d’Execution Transcendente which >everyone seems to bypass.

Bingo.And relatively few Beethoven symphonies.

[Raymond Hall]

The homogeneous quality is that there are far too many notes per bar, in Liszt's piano music. At least to these ears. Liszt was a master, no doubt, but one prays for someone like Satie to come along and save the day.

Ray Hall, Taree

[Néstor Castiglione]

Liszt’s late music can hardly be described as “having far too many notes per bar.” Volubility and homogeneity are not necessarily the same thing. Anyway, one man’s “too many” is another’s “just enough.”

[JohnGavin]

I wonder, after listening to all 99 CDs of Liszt’s piano music, how much would even an aficionado consider first or even second rate music. A hint might be that pianists who perform and record Liszt (except Mr. Howard) tend to gravitate around a relatively small percentage of his output. At the top of the pyramid undoubtedly stands the Sonata.

[Rebuild Queens Hall London]

On Friday, January 25, 2013 at 1:44:00 PM UTC, Bozo wrote:
> You be the judge.
>
> Leslie Howard given a boost in his recording of Liszt's " Grosse
> Concert-Phantasie uber Spanische Weisen " :
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zKHcl_WEK4
>
> Per the YT poster ( a very knowledgable poster ) :
>
> " Performed by the interminably boring Leslie Howard. As such, I
> increased the speed by 50%. Other than a couple of short, ornamental
> passages of filigree which went above tempo, this is the actual marked
> tempo. In fact, a few major passages are still below the written
> tempo, despite the 150% speed. This is basically just a joke, and I'll
> probably remove it in a while. But yes, this piece is definitely more
> difficult than the Meyerbeer or Berlioz transcriptions, or the S. 137
> Etudes. The original S. 140 Paganini Etudes are probably the only
> thing that really challenge this."
>
> Dufus

If you don't want the entire output on cd try if you can get hold of it the mostly complete original works with France Clidat. The playing on the whole is very fine. An underrated issue.

[MELMOTH13]

Le 28/05/2020 à 14:19, Rebuild Queens Hall London a écrit :
> If you don't want the entire output on cd try if you can get hold of it the mostly complete original works with France Clidat. The playing on the whole is very fine. An underrated issue.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=daniil+trifonov