"ein Schwindel"

gggg...@gmail.com

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Nov 11, 2014, 1:57:14 PM11/11/14

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http://books.google.com/books?id=uXq4qfNwaNgC&pg=PA6&dq=schwindel+recordings&hl=en&sa=X&ei=lFtiVNfyCOT1iQKIoID4BA&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=schwindel%20recordings&f=false

William Sommerwerck

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Nov 11, 2014, 2:18:58 PM11/11/14

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Most people would disagree -- correct one mistake is hardly ein Schwindel.
Editing a poor performance to make it acceptable is the swindle.

Mort

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Nov 11, 2014, 4:54:05 PM11/11/14

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William Sommerwerck wrote:
> Most people would disagree -- correct one mistake is hardly ein
> Schwindel. Editing a poor performance to make it acceptable is the swindle.

This reminds me of the story, which I cannot verify, of Leopold
Stokowski recording a piano concerto with an unnamed young pianist who
thought very highly of himself. It was in the early L.P. era, when tape
recording was in general use, and Scotch tape and razor blades were the
tools of the trade, so to speak. During the recording sessions, the
pianist made mistake after mistake. The engineer, spurred on by the
producer's cost considerations of overtime for the orchestra, told them
that he could fix the errors and patch together a master tape. When the
finished master tape was being played in the studio, the cocky pianist
crowed about what a magnificent piano performance it was. Maestro
Stokowski then retorted, "Yes, and don't you wish that you could play
like that.".

Mort Linder

---
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Russ (not Martha)

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Nov 11, 2014, 11:51:42 PM11/11/14

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On Tuesday, November 11, 2014 3:54:05 PM UTC-6, Mort wrote:
> William Sommerwerck wrote:
> > Most people would disagree -- correct one mistake is hardly ein
> > Schwindel. Editing a poor performance to make it acceptable is the swindle.
>
>
> This reminds me of the story, which I cannot verify, of Leopold
> Stokowski recording a piano concerto with an unnamed young pianist who
> thought very highly of himself. It was in the early L.P. era, when tape
> recording was in general use, and Scotch tape and razor blades were the
> tools of the trade, so to speak. During the recording sessions, the
> pianist made mistake after mistake. The engineer, spurred on by the
> producer's cost considerations of overtime for the orchestra, told them
> that he could fix the errors and patch together a master tape. When the
> finished master tape was being played in the studio, the cocky pianist
> crowed about what a magnificent piano performance it was. Maestro
> Stokowski then retorted, "Yes, and don't you wish that you could play
> like that.".
>

A great story, but probably attributed to a number of conductors and pianists. Back in the 50's I heard it where Rodzinski and Badura-Skoda were the personnel involved.

Russ (not Martha)

Lionel Tacchini

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Nov 12, 2014, 2:03:18 AM11/12/14

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On 11.11.2014 20:18, William Sommerwerck wrote:
> Most people would disagree -- correct one mistake is hardly ein
> Schwindel. Editing a poor performance to make it acceptable is the swindle.

I never knew making something better was a swindle. Some people have
lousy dictionaries.
--
Lionel Tacchini

richard...@gmail.com

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Nov 12, 2014, 6:59:58 AM11/12/14

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Perhaps it is not a swindle, but a misrepresentation of the artist. You get a recording you can enjoy but to the extent that it builds the artist's representation it's a swindle. I have been to concerts where the artist failed, shall we say, to live up to his reputation from recordings.
(Graffman, Richter-Haaser, Ozawa many times)

Lionel Tacchini

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Nov 12, 2014, 7:11:17 AM11/12/14

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On 12.11.2014 12:59, richard...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 12, 2014 2:03:18 AM UTC-5, Lionel Tacchini
> wrote:
>> On 11.11.2014 20:18, William Sommerwerck wrote:
>>> Most people would disagree -- correct one mistake is hardly ein
>>> Schwindel. Editing a poor performance to make it acceptable is
>>> the swindle.
>>
>> I never knew making something better was a swindle. Some people
>> have lousy dictionaries. -- Lionel Tacchini

> Perhaps it is not a swindle, but a misrepresentation of the artist.

Value is in the art, not in the artist. The rest is fandom or show
business. Useful for sure, but not nearly as valuable.
Performance is nothing but a necessary intermediate.

> You get a recording you can enjoy but to the extent that it builds
> the artist's representation it's a swindle. I have been to concerts
> where the artist failed, shall we say, to live up to his reputation
> from recordings. (Graffman, Richter-Haaser, Ozawa many times)

Are we going to see people demanding laws to protect people from
building expectations of supernatural capabilities in other people?

Think about all that disappointment at realising that Superman cannot
really fly. Shouldn't we avoid it?

--
Lionel Tacchini

Herman

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Nov 12, 2014, 7:18:28 AM11/12/14

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On Wednesday, November 12, 2014 1:11:17 PM UTC+1, Lionel Tacchini wrote:

>
> Think about all that disappointment at realising that Superman cannot
> really fly. Shouldn't we avoid it?
>

most adult are aware that Superman is a fictional character.

Lionel Tacchini

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Nov 12, 2014, 7:41:00 AM11/12/14

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Oh, I must have mixed him up with that guy they elected then. My mistake.

--
Lionel Tacchini

William Sommerwerck

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Nov 12, 2014, 9:11:48 AM11/12/14

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"Lionel Tacchini" wrote in message news:m3v0nk$477$1...@gwaiyur.mb-net.net...

On 11.11.2014 20:18, William Sommerwerck wrote:

>> Most people would disagree -- correcting one mistake is hardly

>> ein Schwindel. Editing a poor performance to make it acceptable
>> is the swindle.

> I never knew making something better was a swindle.

Ever heard of "salting a mine"?

> Some people have lousy dictionaries.

I have three versions of the OED. Do you?

William Sommerwerck

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Nov 12, 2014, 9:14:32 AM11/12/14

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"Lionel Tacchini" wrote in message news:m3vip3$odu$1...@gwaiyur.mb-net.net...

> Think about all that disappointment at realising that Superman
> cannot really fly.

Oh, but he can, based on a non-ontic Relational interpretation of quantum
mechanics. I'm working on screenplay based on just that subject, and
corresponding with the physicist (one of your countrymen) who developed the
Relational interpretation.

arri bachrach

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Nov 12, 2014, 10:29:20 AM11/12/14

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never knew it until now....

AB

Lionel Tacchini

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Nov 12, 2014, 10:34:13 AM11/12/14

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See what you've done Herman? Monster.

--
Lionel Tacchini

O

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Nov 12, 2014, 12:06:58 PM11/12/14

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In article <c0d59880-2be1-41c4...@googlegroups.com>,

And, and, Santa and the Easter Bunny????

Say it ain't so!

-Owen

William Sommerwerck

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Nov 12, 2014, 1:09:55 PM11/12/14

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"O" wrote in message news:121120141206559851%ow...@denofinequityx.com...

> And, and, Santa and the Easter Bunny???

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1vJ4sXetw4

"I still ain't made up my mind yet about Toledo."

Gerard

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Nov 12, 2014, 2:11:25 PM11/12/14

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"arri bachrach" wrote in message
news:c0d59880-2be1-41c4...@googlegroups.com...

=============

It's never too late to become an adult ;)

Mort

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Nov 12, 2014, 6:59:03 PM11/12/14

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Hi,

It was Otto Klemperer who called edited recordings a swindle, not our
group's posters. He grew up in an era and a country where perfection was
the standard. He was a product of his time in this regard.

richard...@gmail.com

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Nov 12, 2014, 7:37:35 PM11/12/14

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You may be correct. I had heard that he used the phrase when first conducting in Israel, after he discovered that he was expected to donate his fee. He was reported to have said (in german) "Lotte, it is a swindle." I hadn't heard that he applied it to edited recordings too.

Herman

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Nov 13, 2014, 1:59:28 AM11/13/14

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On Thursday, November 13, 2014 12:59:03 AM UTC+1, Mort wrote:

>
> It was Otto Klemperer who called edited recordings a swindle, not our
> group's posters. He grew up in an era and a country where perfection was
> the standard. He was a product of his time in this regard.
>

OvK may have expected perfection from his orchestra players, but today's players are much more perfection oriented, and capable of it.

That doesn't make today a better time.

arri bachrach

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Nov 13, 2014, 12:08:03 PM11/13/14

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its too late now..

AB

FrankB

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Nov 13, 2014, 3:08:22 PM11/13/14

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One version about Klemperer and the Israel Philharmonic was in the book "Klemperer Stories." The conductor ran into the orchestra manager and wondered why he had never been invited to conduct the IPO. "Dr. Klemperer, you have been baptised and therefore are a heretic to us." Klemperer pointed out that Serge Koussevitzky, another Jew who converted, had led the orchestra. "Yes, but Koussevitzky conducted without fee." To which Klemperer replied, "I am still Jewish enough to not do that!"

gggg...@gmail.com

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Feb 28, 2015, 5:21:43 AM2/28/15

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On Tuesday, November 11, 2014 at 8:57:14 AM UTC-10, gggg...@gmail.com wrote:
> http://books.google.com/books?id=uXq4qfNwaNgC&pg=PA6&dq=schwindel+recordings&hl=en&sa=X&ei=lFtiVNfyCOT1iQKIoID4BA&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=schwindel%20recordings&f=false

Would you consider this a schwindel?:

- In the early 1950s, Schwarzkopf became the center of a heated musical controversy when it was revealed that she had dubbed two youthful high C's to a recording of "Tristan und Isolde" by the aging Kirsten Flagstad, who was having difficulties with her upper register. The substitution was carefully accomplished and nobody would have likely found out about it had it not been for the voracious hunger for gossip within the opera world. Purists were scandalized -- they thought the whole thing smacked of fakery. The pianist Glenn Gould thought otherwise: He considered the loan of the two C's a professional courtesy from one artist to another, all to the creation of a more perfect "Tristan."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/03/AR2006080301681.html

gggg...@gmail.com

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Feb 28, 2015, 5:23:14 AM2/28/15

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On Tuesday, November 11, 2014 at 9:18:58 AM UTC-10, William Sommerwerck wrote:
> Most people would disagree -- correct one mistake is hardly ein Schwindel.
> Editing a poor performance to make it acceptable is the swindle.

- What once were vices are manners now.

Seneca

Willem Orange

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Feb 28, 2015, 8:41:29 AM2/28/15

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OH for Christ's sake this AGAIN?????? it's so old news.

arri bachrach

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Feb 28, 2015, 11:42:17 AM2/28/15

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I have heard that story for years and never have actually heard the recording!!is it on youtube or somewhere else??

AB

Lionel Tacchini

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Feb 28, 2015, 11:50:39 AM2/28/15

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It's an important discussion because it clearly separates performance
circus idiots from people interested in music.

--
Lionel Tacchini

Willem Orange

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Feb 28, 2015, 5:04:08 PM2/28/15

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Its the 1952 EMI Tristan recording and has been discussed here and in many other places ad infinitum. EMI would have been better off if they had just put a note in the recording about the splice (or if Flagstad would just have omitted the notes)- they didn't and some didn't like the idea and raised a stink. Its the reason Flagstad left EMI and joined Decca. That's all.

Mort

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Feb 28, 2015, 8:40:37 PM2/28/15

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It started when a worker in the recording studio told her boyfriend that
that day's session included 2 sopranos. He knew that what they were
recording called for 1 soprano.

This stuff is over 50 years old. Why dredge it up again?

Mort

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Feb 28, 2015, 8:41:45 PM2/28/15

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It's on EMI CDs.

Willem Orange

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Feb 28, 2015, 8:56:06 PM2/28/15

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Culshaw says that his housemate at the time in London was a member of the orchestra, came home from one of the recording sessions and told him there were three woman singing. Culshaw assumed he was just mistaken since the score only has two women and the Philharmonia was a young orchestra with no operatic experience.

weary flake

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Mar 1, 2015, 11:57:58 AM3/1/15

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>> Would you consider this a schwindel?:

a swindle or a schwindel, i'm not sure which.
EMI, so probably a swindle.

>>>>>
>>>>> - In the early 1950s, Schwarzkopf became the center of a heated
>>>>> musical controversy when it was revealed that she had dubbed two
>>>>> youthful high C's to a recording of "Tristan und Isolde" by the
>>>>> aging Kirsten Flagstad, who was having difficulties with her
>>>>> upper register. The substitution was carefully accomplished and
>>>>> nobody would have likely found out about it had it not been for
>>>>> the voracious hunger for gossip within the opera world. Purists
>>>>> were scandalized -- they thought the whole thing smacked of
>>>>> fakery. The pianist Glenn Gould thought otherwise: He considered
>>>>> the loan of the two C's a professional courtesy from one artist
>>>>> to another, all to the creation of a more perfect "Tristan."

editing is not necassarily a swindle, the swindle is the
lack of disclosure.

>>>>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/03/AR2006080301681.html
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>> OH for Christ's sake this AGAIN?????? it's so old news.

it's old news but the lesson is fairly new;
editing is not a crime, it's the lack of
disclosure that constitutes a great wrong in
some people's ears.

>>> I have heard that story for years and never have actually heard the
>>> recording!!is it on youtube or somewhere else??
>>
>> It's an important discussion because it clearly separates performance>
>> circus idiots from people interested in music.

circus idiots are caused by circus performers.
we consumers are like babies watching magic,
and we need to have it pointed out to us the
nature of the magic to avoid being idiots.

> Its the 1952 EMI Tristan recording and has been discussed here and in
> many other places ad infinitum. EMI would have been better off if they
> had just put a note in the recording about the splice (or if Flagstad
> would just have omitted the notes)- they didn't and some didn't like
> the idea and raised a stink. Its the reason Flagstad left EMI and
> joined Decca. That's all.

That's all, but apparently a big deal. The
lack of disclosure is a marketing style and
the lesson that it is a bad style has not
fully sunk in by the record companies. I
agree that lack of description of a
specific recording is a general and long
lasting error that has not been learned by
our ignorant record companies, who are more
concerned with marketing than accuracy. So
we need this story pointed out again and
again.

Lionel Tacchini

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Mar 1, 2015, 12:00:36 PM3/1/15

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On 01.03.2015 17:57, weary flake wrote:
> circus idiots are caused by circus performers.

It is obviously the other way around.

--
Lionel Tacchini

dk

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Mar 1, 2015, 2:51:56 PM3/1/15

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On Wednesday, November 12, 2014 at 4:11:17 AM UTC-8, Lionel Tacchini wrote:
> On 12.11.2014 12:59, richard...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Wednesday, November 12, 2014 2:03:18 AM UTC-5, Lionel Tacchini
> > wrote:

> >> On 11.11.2014 20:18, William Sommerwerck wrote:
> >>> Most people would disagree -- correct one mistake is hardly ein
> >>> Schwindel. Editing a poor performance to make it acceptable is
> >>> the swindle.
> >>

> >> I never knew making something better was a swindle. Some people

> >> have lousy dictionaries. -- Lionel Tacchini
>
> > Perhaps it is not a swindle, but a misrepresentation of the artist.
>
> Value is in the art, not in the artist. The rest is fandom or show
> business. Useful for sure, but not nearly as valuable.
> Performance is nothing but a necessary intermediate.

I am pretty sure Joyce Hatto would agree with you ....

dk

Willem Orange

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Mar 1, 2015, 3:47:58 PM3/1/15

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Well that's a big shame because the result is the continued discussion of two notes and nobody is talking about the rest of the huge assumption of an operatic role by one of the great singers of all time, Arguably one of the real reasons recordings were created - to record greatness for posterity . But do go on..........

wade

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Mar 2, 2015, 1:24:52 AM3/2/15

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Oh dear, Do you really expect that EMI, having not admitted to the "insertion" for 60 years is suddenly going to "find Jesus" and confess? Please spare us all ... Go out and protest at the Warner corporate offices for "truth in advertising if its that important to you, but to rehash a story that was thoroughly hashed out so long ago is ludicrous.

Lionel Tacchini

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Mar 2, 2015, 1:41:55 AM3/2/15

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On 02.03.2015 07:24, wade wrote:
> Oh dear, Do you really expect that EMI, having not admitted to the
> "insertion" for 60 years is suddenly going to "find Jesus" and
> confess?

There is nothing to confess. Retouching a recording is part of making a
better product. Whoever feels "cheated" at it would better off watching
baseball.
--
Lionel Tacchini

Lionel Tacchini

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Mar 2, 2015, 1:43:34 AM3/2/15

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better product. Whoever feels "cheated" at it would *be* better off
watching baseball.

--
Lionel Tacchini - making a better posting