Il Trovatore

[Christophe Schuwey]

Hello,

I recently bought an incredible recording from Verdi's "Il Trovatore".
This is the famous (I think) Pavarotti/Sutherland/Horne recording.
Sutherland is absolutly incredible, her voice is so easy, so perfectly
used, so fresh, so natural!! No high notes seems to give her a bit of
difficulty...
But I think that lots of you have ever heard this recording, and I got
three questions about it:

1) Does anyone know an other beautiful recording from Il Trovatore? I
saw Marton who is absolutly terrible, and Kabaivanska who is good but
nothing to compare with Sutherland in my personal opinion.

2) This is my very important question: in the great Leonora's aria "Di
Tale amor, che dirsi", Sutherland do at the end a wonderful high "thing"
(It's the second "moriro" from the time that Ines has entred) difficult
to describe, but those who heard this recording must know of what I'm
speaking about, absolutly fantastic thing). But in the two others
versions that I heard, the two other don't do this "thing"... It is
because it's not in the original score and this performing added it, or
it's because the two other aren't able to do it?

3)What is a "cabaletta"? What is the definition of a "cabaletta"?

[long_ter...@yahoo.com]

Glad to see your enthusiasm for this opera. I suggest you listen to the
Bjoerling, Milanov, etc. recording next. Hopefully after you have heard
many other singers your enthusiasm for Sutherland will vanish. I
suggest that
you look for singers that actually sing, rather than produce sounds,
like Sutherland. I'm sure there are lots of popular songs that you love
and know by heart, where you understand every word that the singer
sings, and where you easily identify with the emotions that are
communicated to you. That's how opera should sound too, but then
Sutherland is nothing more than a moaning fake.

[Chuck Klaus]

Dear Christophe,

Welcome to the highly rational world of opera fandom.

1. Try The Bjoerling/Milanov Warrne RCA, or if you can find it, the
first Leontyne Price recording. The sound quality of the voices, as
well as the emotions conveyed - probably not the recording quality,
admittedly - are both beautiful and dramatic.

2. Look up "vocal ornimentation" in an on-line musical glossary.
Basically, such passages are alternate versions of the score that were
either authorized by the composer, have come into general practice, or
are improvisations by the singer.

3. In fact, most musical terms, such as cabaletta, can be found in any
numbers of on-line musical glossaries.

Regards, and Good listening.

Chuck Klaus

[Christophe Schuwey]

Thanks everybody for the answers ;-) Even if I seems to be a very
beginner in the opera world, I'm not so a beginner ;-). If I'm so
enthiustast about Sutherland voice in this version it's because it
sounds special from the voice of my favorites interprets, and because I
found that Il Trovatore is a apart opera, with a fast rythm, lot of
action, and a music who's very interesting.
Sure that Sutherland would not be able to make a good Desdomona (Rysanek
or the wonderful Renée Fleming (surprising!) are unsurpassed in my
opinion) but in the part of Leonora especially, she sings in a very
interesting way... much better than this awful Eva Marton to take some
easy and extreme examples :-D

Thanks for your advices about the version, I will get it to continue my
exploration of this wonderful opera.

Thanks a lot!

[david...@aol.com]

Chuck Klaus's recommendations:

Milanov, Barbieri, Bjoerling, Warren, Cellini
Price, Elias, Tucker, Warren, Basile

would probably be my top recommendations, too . . . except that Milanov
sabotages the first set, dragging behind the beat and sagging beneath
the pitch all too often, lacking in agillity and generally sounding
matronly throughout, although she does float the occasional gorgeous
soft high note. Everybody else in the cast including the superb
conductor is well nigh ideal: it's a pity the young spitfire Price of
the second set couldn't be inserted in place of Milanov.

The second set is notable for the absolute burning conviction everybody
involved brings to his or her role (or to the podium). On the other
hand, Basile turns in a less nuanced piece of conducting than Cellini,
and this performance captures Tucker later in his career when his sound
had become somewhat dry. There are also some lingering provincialisms
in his performances--sobs and glottal attacks for expressive
purposes--that bother other listeners far more than they bother me, but
his musical and expressive instincts otherwise are very good. Still, a
fresher voiced Bjoerling exhibits virtues comparable to Tucker's
without any of the drawbacks. If Bjoerling could have been grafted
onto this set . . .

Somewhere in the Google archives there's a long survey by yours truly
of multiple recordings of Trovatore. You may not want to read it,
though. I can't stand Sutherland's Leonora despite her spectacular
technical abilities because she's a complete blank musically and
expressively. The only performance in the
Sutherland/Horne/Pavarotti/Bonynge affair that I admire is Pavarotti's
absolutely sensational Manrico, and there's an even better performance
of Manrico's double aria ("Ah, si, ben mio" & "Di quella pira") on a
slightly earlier Pavarotti aria recital with Rescigno conducting.
Richard Bonynge is the worst thing about that all-star Trovatore,
though. He's slow and dull and completely uninvolved. Cellini and
Basile are so much more incendiary you'd be shocked by the difference.

-david gable

[Christophe Schuwey]

Thanks a lot for this brillant review. I must definitly listen to the
two versiosn that you talked about. I'm juste surprised about your word
on Bonynge: slow? But to speak for instance about Di Tale Amor, Infidal
or Vivra Contende Il Giubilo, he's faster than Karajan (ok to say that
Karajan don't really know how to conduct Verdi) or Levine (who's an
excellent Verdi conductor --> see his Otello with Domingo/Fleming)...

[A. Brain]

<david...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1110317329.0...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

Here's a review of the recent Houston production that got mostly raver
reviews here:

I thought it was excellent, but this reviewer didn't. I'm reasonably
sure that the

Azucena I saw was Jill Grove, but this review covers another who subbed
for

Zajick, apparently quite successfully.

_______________________________________________________________

DATE: 01/31/05

DAY: Monday

PAPER: THE DALLAS MORNING NEWS

SECTION: OVERNIGHT

EDITION: SECOND

PAGE: 9B

HEAD: 'Il trovatore' production stumbles Leading men's vocals impress,
but

Houston show lacks polish

BYLINE: SCOTT CANTRELL

CREDIT: Classical Music Critic

DATELINE: HOUSTON

ART: PHOTO(S): (Brett Coomer) Bruno Caproni (from left), Sandra
Radvanovsky

and Marcello Giordani star in the Houston Grand Opera's Il trovatore.

TEXT:

HOUSTON-"Who's the father?"

Those billboards, disturbing signs of our time, could also advertise
Verdi's

opera Il trovatore. Is Manrico the son of the gypsy Azucena and some
unnamed

man, or of the late Count di Luna (and therefore brother of the current

count)? The ambiguity, by no means resolved at the opera's end, could be

cleared up with a modern DNA test.

Not that the current Houston Grand Opera Trovatore, a production
co-owned by

the Los Angeles and Washington National opera companies, updates the
story.

Set designer Benoît Dugardyn provides black plank walls that slide open
in

quite a variety of configurations, and Joan Sullivan-Genthe works many a

wonder of modern lighting. But costumer Martin Pakledinaz keeps the
dramatis

personae in medieval armor and dresses apt to the opera's 15th-century

Spanish milieu.

Unfortunately, Christopher Thomas' staging of the Stephen Lawless
production

alternates between the dramatically nondescript (Marcello Giordani's

portrayal of Manrico) and the silent-screen school of lurch and grimace

(Sandra Radvanovsky as Manrico's love interest, Leonora). And there's an

awful lot of fuss with swords - stuck in the floor, hung overhead, swung
by

almost everyone. Even the famous Anvil Chorus is turned into a mock

swordfight.

At least the leading men sing wonderfully. Mr. Giordani, who has a
history

of canceling Dallas Opera engagements, comes through for Houston with a
firm

lyric tenor and many a stirring phrase. Manrico's rival for Leonora's
hand,

the current Count di Luna, is persuasively played by Bruno Caproni, with
a

baritone of easy power and richness.

The production's star draw was to have been Dolora Zajick, Verdi

mezzo-soprano in excelsis, as Azucena. But, two weeks before opening
night,

Ms. Zajick was sidelined by a knee injury. Jill Grove was booked in her

place and sang the first three performances, then had to withdraw
because of

tracheitis.

From Saturday's performance at the Wortham Center, you'd never have
known

that Eugenie Grunewald had flown in only that afternoon to take the
role.

She's the very incarnation of the gypsy hag's vulnerability and
tenderness

as well as her burning rage - and sheer weirdness. The voice lacks Ms.

Zajick's heroism, but this is an all-out performance, the tone lava-hot
on

top, blazing down into chest voice below.

Ms. Radvanovsky gives Leonora her all - no one could accuse her of

under-acting - but vocally this isn't a good thing. Her soprano can make
a

huge sound, but there's a strangely unfocused quality, intonation isn't

entirely reliable, and her Italian might as well be Urdu.

If this is what's passing for a Verdi soprano these days, and in major

houses, we're in trouble. (She was hardly more persuasive as Violetta in
the

Dallas Opera's 2004 La traviata.) But go figure: the normally reserved

Houston audience applauded and brava-ed loudly after Ms. Radvanovsky's
every

appearance. Two company apprentices, Daniel Borowski and Marjorie Owens,

give arresting performances as Ferrando and Ines.

The chorus, prepared by Richard Bado, is fabulous. Too bad the men are

required to do a dorky sword ballet for the stirring Act 3 "Squilli,
echeggi

la tromba guerriera." Music director Patrick Summers gets taut, finely

gauged playing from the orchestra, but Verdi, of all composers, could
use a

little more sheer passion.

E-mail scan...@dallasnews.com

--
A. Brain

Remove NOSPAM for email.

[Richard Loeb]

I would second David's recommendation for the Cellini led Trovatore but I
certainly add Milanov as an asset. Her line has a finish to it that no one
else approaches - added to that are the superb legato and the ravishing
piano tones. The arias are magnificent ; she has a way of phrasing in this
performance that lends a continuity and poise to the vocalism. The other
performers are up and down the line at least the equal of anyone since and
usually better. A special recording that captured all of the principals in
their absolute primes. Cellini's conducting has no flashes of insight
(e.g.Karajan) but is quick and sure. Very nicely remastered by Obert-Thorn
for Naxos.
I actually prefer Price on the Basile recording to the later one under Mehta
(which has a ruinous mastering in any case) - the voice has the freshness
and spin of her youth - along with her first Aida - shows her off to great
advantage. Its the other soloists on that recording that let the side down a
bit - Tucker is very reliable but has nowhere near the style or finish of
Bjoerling, Warren has gotten shakier and huskier but still sails off some
great high phrases, Elias just doesn;t have Verdian mezzo this role
requires. Basile is OK. I'm not sure the set is currently available but it
should be. Richard

. Brain" <abr...@NOSPAMatt.net> wrote in message
news:MopXd.115438$Th1.1...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...

[david...@aol.com]

Christophe asks what a cabaletta is. Operas in 19th-century Italy were
composed of a series of "numbers" each of which is made up of a series
of individual "movements." Hence the basic formal unit of 19th-century
Italian opera is frequently referred to as "the multi-movement number."
When a number falls into the normal or usual form--"la solita forma"
in Verdi's own words--it is built around a "double aria" (or duet or
trio, etc.) the first component of which is referred to as the
cantabile, the second as a cabaletta. When a finale involving a large
number of characters plus the chorus falls into this form, the
cantabile-like movement is referred to by its tempo marking as the
largo, the adagio, the andante, etc., while the cabaletta-like
concluding movement is referred to as the stretta. The basic form
remains the same.

The cantabile and the cabaletta are lyric movements in strict form.
The cantabile may or may not be prefaced by a movement or two in freer
forms, while the cantabile and the caballetta are usually connected by
a movement in freer form referred to as the "tempo di mezzo" or "the
movement in the middle," that is between the cantabile and the
cabaletta. Action generally occurs in the freer movements while the
cantabile and the cabaletta, the movements in stricter form, are
generally reserved for lyric expression (or, more rarely, for the
narration of some past event).

The following numbers from Il Trovatore unambiguously fall into this
double aria pattern:

Act I, Scene 1
Essentially a double aria for Ferrando, this scene consists of a single
number.
cantabile: "Abbietta zingara"
cabaletta: "Sull'orlo dei tetti" (launched by the chorus)
The construction of the cantabile is somewhat unusual in that both
verses of "Abbietta zingara" are prefaced with the same material, which
is first sung by Ferrando to the words "Di due figli vivea"

Act I, Scene 2, Double aria for Leonora
cantabile: "Tacea la notte placida"
cabaletta: "Di tale amor"

Act II, Scene 1, Duet for Manrico and Azucena
cantabile: "Mal reggendo"
cabaletta: "Perigliar ti ancor languente"

Act II, Scene 2 Double aria for the Count
cantabile: "Il balen del suo sorriso"
cabaletta: "Per me ora fatale"

Act III, Scene 1 Double aria for Azucena
cantabile: "Giorni poveri vivea" [although Verdi naturalistically
breaks this off with dialogue]
cabaletta: "Deh, rallentate, o, barbari"

Act II, Scene 2
This entire scene consists of a single number built around a double
aria for Manrico.
cantabile: "Ah, si, ben mio"
cabaletta: "Di quella pira"

Act IV, Scene 1
This scene consists of two numbers that fall into the normal form, a
double aria for Leonora and a duet for Leonora and the count.

Double aria for Leonora
cantabile: "D'amor sull'ali rosee"
cabaletta: "Tu vedrai che'amore in terra"
This double aria is unusual in that there is a particularly formal and
elaborate "tempo di mezzo" linking cantabile to cabaletta, the
so-called "Miserere" launched with Leonora's "Quel suon, quelle preci."

Duet for Leonora and the Count
cantabile: "Mira, di acerbe lagrime"
cabaletta: "Vivra! Contende il giubilo"

-david gable

[david...@aol.com]

Richard,

I'm always surprised when people don't like Rosalind Elias, Azucena in
the Price-Tucker-Basile Trovatore. She may not have had as big an
instrument as Simionato or Barbieri, the reigning Azucena's of her age,
or as big, fat, and gorgeous a one as Cossotto, but she's got the right
temperament for the role and more of it than Cossotto.

-david gable

[Richard Loeb]

But David the voice is just too light - I like her but there just isn't
enough of her

Richard
<david...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1110323332.8...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...

[david...@aol.com]

Here's a footnote to my post on cabalettas.

Obviously, in 19th-century Italy librettist and composer were both
working in the same tradition attempting to produce the same kind of
dramatic structure. When the composer received a libretto from his
librettist, he could immediately see where the individual movements
were to occur because of the verse forms supplied by the librettist.
The different kinds of movements used in the number made use of
different kinds of verse forms, and the librettist laid out the opera
as a succession of numbers divided into different kinds of movements
before the composer ever got his hands on the libretto. The cantabile
and cabaletta movements were the movements based on the most regular
and formal verse forms.

-david gable

[david...@aol.com]

One more footnote to my post on cabalettas, this one on usage. The
average listener quite reasonably refers to cantabile movements from
19th century Italian opera as arias, since “arias” are “airs.” Oddly
enough, though, this is not historically correct usage.

Nineteenth-century Italian composers never refer to the individual
cantabile movement as an aria. They use the term aria to refer to an
entire multi-movement number including the entire double aria
construction typical of the number. For example, Verdi would refer to
the entire number for Leonora at the opening of Act 1, Scene 2, of Il
Trovatore beginning with Inez’s recitative, “Che piu t’arresti” and
including Leonora’s cantabile and cabaletta, “Tacea la notte placida”
and “Di tale amor,” as an aria. He would refer to “Tacea la notte” as
the cantabile.

More terminological mischief. You frequently find the two movements of
the double aria construction characteristic of the number referred to
as the “cavatina” and the “cabaletta.” Unfortunately, this familiar
usage is not correct, either. A cavatina is an entrance aria or “aria
di sortita,” a first formal aria sung by a principal character to
introduce him or her, and once again the term aria here refers to the
entire double aria construction characteristic of the multi-movement
number.

When a number is a cavatina, it generally opens with the cantabile:
the cantabile of a cavatina is not normally prefaced with freer
movements made up of recitative and arioso. By mid-century, Verdi had
basically stopped introducing principal characters through formal
cavatinas, but you frequently find them in Rossini and Donizetti.
Although it introduces her to us for the first time, Leonora’s initial
double aria, “Tacea la notte placida”/”Di tale amor,” is not really an
old fashioned cavatina, a formal portrait of the lady. The number
begins in medias res with Inez asking Leonora in recitative what’s
bothering her.

-david gable

[david...@aol.com]

Elias's voice may be too small for you, Richard, but it's not for me.
She's one of my favorite "Italian" mezzos of the period along with
Simionato and especially Barbieri. I love every smoldering performance
in an Italian opera from Elias I've ever heard.

-david gable

[Richard Loeb]

I really can't compare her favorably to either of those two; an intelligent
singer with weak low notes (esp on that Basile Trovatore) but the voice is
not of sufficient stature, size, weight or color to be really effective in
the Italian dramatic mezzo repertory. Having heard them both in the
house - I can easily say that Cossotos voice was about three sizes larger
but more than that was able to to play and color the voice in ways that
Elias was unable to simply because Cossoto had more to work with. . I know
you are a fan but I really prefer others in just about every mezzo role she
sang on recordings - the Azucena, Laura, the Verdi Requiem. On the other
hand I like her Meg Page in the Solti Falstaff amd her Suzuki in the Price
Butterfly- the voice seems just right for those roles. For me sometimes
intelligence and temperament are not enough if the voice itself is not
enough. Just my opinion, naturally. Richard

<david...@aol.com> wrote in message
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[stephenmead]

"A. Brain" <abr...@NOSPAMatt.net> wrote in message
news:MopXd.115438$Th1.1...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...

> <david...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:1110317329.0...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >
>

> Ms. Radvanovsky gives Leonora her all - no one could accuse her of
>
> under-acting - but vocally this isn't a good thing. Her soprano can make
> a
>
> huge sound, but there's a strangely unfocused quality, intonation isn't
>
> entirely reliable, and her Italian might as well be Urdu.
>
> If this is what's passing for a Verdi soprano these days, and in major
>
> houses, we're in trouble. (She was hardly more persuasive as Violetta in
> the
>
> Dallas Opera's 2004 La traviata.) But go figure: the normally reserved
>
> Houston audience applauded and brava-ed loudly after Ms. Radvanovsky's
> every
>
> appearance.

I wasn't there of course but I wish I could have been. After hearing
Radvanovsky in the Vespri broadcast that opened the MET broadcast sesaon I
have become an ardent fan. I believe that the audience's reaction to her
performance - thrilled, enthralled, bravoing and applauding after every
appearance - was more likely to be the right one than this critic's. What a
ridiculous thing to say, if this is what passes for a Verdi soprano in major
houses today, we're in big trouble.I am counting down the days like the
Studertroll waiting for his idol in Elektra until the broadcast form the MET
of Don Carlos with her as Elisabetta, only I've been keeping it to myself.
Just shows that even the best singers get bad reviews sometimes.

[Richard Loeb]

I haven't had the chance to hear her live but I have been very impressed
with the broadcasts. Perfect - no - and a few things have to be ironed out
but the basic quality is, for me, the real thing. I look forward to hearing
her in the future. Richard
"stephenmead" <ste...@mead9720.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
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[stephenmead]

"Richard Loeb" <loe...@comcast.net> wrote in message

> I actually prefer Price on the Basile recording to the later one under
Mehta
> (which has a ruinous mastering in any case)

Yes that recording has always had distortion, pre-echo and generally bad
sound in every form it has been released in. I used to have it on LP and now
I have the CD's. But I would not part with it for the world. In fact if the
house was on fire that would be one of the things I would grab to rescue. It
is the perfect opera recording to me. All the singers and the conductor
superb and the opera performed note complete, not with cuts at all, which I
simply cannot stand and would never have a recording that omitted the
cabaletta repeats.

[Richard Loeb]

Well you know, I have it as well, and its very very good but there is
something missing - a sense of urgency - I fear it suffers from being one
of those overly spliced together things. Its a great reference recording -
the whole thing and well sung but for me the frisson isn't there. best

Richard
"stephenmead" <ste...@mead9720.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message

news:d0lgoi$rnd$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...

[david...@aol.com]

Richard, I never heard Elias, Barbieri, or Simionato live (unless you
count "live" recordings), but I've heard Cossotto as Amneris and
Azucena at the Met. An enormous and gorgeous sound. Still, as
terrific as she was, I prefer the other three. You're not going to be
able to talk me out of loving Elias's Azucena for Basile. She's got
absolutely everything I need in an Azucena. Objecting that she doesn't
have things I don't need won't work.

-david gable

[Richard Loeb]

Not trying to talk you out of anything David - (I know better) - just
expressing an opinion and trying to give reasons for it. Better than my
saying "she's better and that"s that" I would think. Enjoy Elias - we could
do with more of her today thats for sure. Richard
<david...@aol.com> wrote in message
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[david...@aol.com]

Mr. Brain,

So you're the culprit who gets these threads running simultaneously at
rmo and rmcr! Ouch!

-david gable

[Richard Loeb]

To add further - I will go way out on a limb and give a nod to some of the
old Cetra recordings - there are many others better sung and conducted but
there was sometimes an urgency and fervor in those sets - most recorded on
the spot with no retakes - that gave a flavor of what is sometimes missing
from the more glamorously cast modern sets. And some still take their place
way up on the list e.g. the Francesca da Rimini is very idiomatic and well
conducted and the 1941 Forza is in many ways the best of all. Richard
<david...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1110332439.7...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> I'm definitely with Richard on the Mehta Trovatore. As he says, it
> entirely lacks ugency . . . not to mention anything distinctive. This
> is one of Mehta's blander and under-energized pieces of conducting from
> the period when he still sometimes gave riveting performances, and it
> completely lacks any special feel for Italian style. Price's voice is
> not what it once was--for that, you have to turn to Basile--and for all
> of the sumptuous vocalism that Domingo, Milnes, and Cossotto supply in
> abundance, they're not the kind of intense, committed, and hair raising
> performers you find in older sets. At least Domingo phrases with some
> elegance, but you purists can keep this one. (If you must have note
> complete, though, better Mehta than Bonynge, although Bonynge's
> Pavarotti is the real deal.)
>
> What I object to in so many of the would be purists is that they make
> legalistic and moralistic and archaeological decisions primary rather
> than aesthetic ones. I'd rather have a vivid performance of a slightly
> cut Trovatore than a bland document of the whole thing. And in the
> case of the three famous middle period Verdi operas, easily the worst
> music in them is to be found in the cabalettas that used to be standard
> cuts: the Duke's unbelievably blank and simple minded cabaletta
> following "Parmi veder," the cabaletta for Leonora following the
> Miserere, and the cabalettas for the two Germonts in Act II, Scene 1,
> of Traviata. I can easily live without them. (Nobody ever dreamed of
> cutting "Sempre libera" or "Di quella pira.")
>
> In practice I collect performances I like, obviously, although I try to
> have one uncut one in the mix. But if there's not an uncut one I like,
> I think of the one I keep as a "document" rather than as a
> "performance." Mehta's Trovatore is a document.
>
> -david gable
>

[Richard Loeb]

Boy are we in perfect agreement on this one Richard
<david...@aol.com> wrote in message

[david...@aol.com]

[Mitchell Kaufman]

Richard Loeb <loe...@comcast.net> wrote:

> Well you know, I have it as well, and its very very good but there is
> something missing - a sense of urgency - I fear it suffers from being one
> of those overly spliced together things. Its a great reference recording -
> the whole thing and well sung but for me the frisson isn't there. best

I know what you mean, but it's still a helluva recording (sonics aside,
which are dreck). Cossotto's performance especially is by my reckoning
one of the great Verdi performances on record--she's just spectacular in
every possible way--fiery, faithful to the score, and in sensational
voice. As for Price, even at this relatively late date (still, she was
only 42), the last-act aria is about as perfect a performance of this
piece as I've ever heard--listen to it again; it's literally flawless.
Milnes is in his youthful prime; only Domingo leaves me wanting more.
It's a "scholarly" performance--he's excellent on detail--but it lacks
the "animale" quality the role requires: too polite, and the voice not
quite up to the demands of the part.

The best Manrico on commercial recordings is probably Bergonzi on the
Serafin recording on DG (Stella, Cossotto, Bastianini). Best ever? That
would have to be Björling at Covent Garden in 1939. If I never hear a
better performance of the part in my life, I can die happy knowing I
heard this one.

MK

[A. Brain]

<david...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1110332589.8...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...

>
> Mr. Brain,
>
> So you're the culprit who gets these threads running simultaneously at
> rmo and rmcr! Ouch!

No, David, this is only the second time I have done that.
Usually, I don't even realize that there is more than one
group involved. In this case, I thought that the question
(and I think you have answered it now) was of interest
to both groups.

I was in the middle of sending a book called _Opera 101_
to a young friend when the "cabaletta" question came up,
so I thought I would post to both groups, as I am here,
even if only to plug the Opera 101 book, though it is
apparently wrong about "cavatina".

Ok, maybe it's the third time counting my "Trovatore"
post.

[Richard Loeb]

Wasn't it Domingo's first commercial recording??? Richard
"Mitchell Kaufman" <forg...@iaint.disclosinit> wrote in message
news:1gt4iil.fn2yx81lt6nb0N%forg...@iaint.disclosinit...

[Mitchell Kaufman]

Richard Loeb <loe...@comcast.net> wrote:

> Wasn't it Domingo's first commercial recording???

Yes, I believe so--his first complete.

MK

[and...@comcast.net]

"Mitchell Kaufman" <forg...@iaint.disclosinit> wrote in message
news:1gt4iil.fn2yx81lt6nb0N%forg...@iaint.disclosinit...
>

> The best Manrico on commercial recordings is probably Bergonzi on the
Serafin recording on DG (Stella, Cossotto, Bastianini). Best ever? That
would have to be Björling at Covent Garden in 1939. If I never hear a better
performance of the part in my life, I can die happy knowing I heard this
one.
>
> MK

But, MK, why do folks insist on having so 'refined' a Manrico as
Bergonzi? I'd prefer a rather more 'involved' actor/Manrico.
Is there a recording extant of Martinelli's Manrico. That's the kind of
tenor I prefer in Trovatore.
The Bjoerling is sui generis, I don't ever expect to hear _that_
Manrico again.
Æ S

[Mitchell Kaufman]

<and...@comcast.net> wrote:

> But, MK, why do folks insist on having so 'refined' a Manrico as
> Bergonzi? I'd prefer a rather more 'involved' actor/Manrico.

Well, the complete commercial recording list of Manrico's isn't really
that impressive. Del Monaco and Corelli would seem to the manner born,
but I don't feel their studio recordings show them at their best. (Nor
could I recommend the recordings as performances of the opera.)
Unfortunately, Corelli is the polar opposite of Bergonzi in the Karajan
Salzburg performance--slurpy, slovenly, and ungainly.

While he's "correct," I never feel slighted in terms of the drama when
Bergonzi sings. He can sound urgent when he wants to, particularly in
live performance (as in the Moscow Trovatore with La Scala in '64).

> Is there a recording extant of Martinelli's Manrico. That's the kind of
> tenor I prefer in Trovatore.

There are two Met broadcasts with Milanov (1938 and '39--extensive
excerpts only), and a '36 broadcast with Rethberg and Bonelli (of which
only bits and pieces exist), so no, nothing note-complete. The Milanov
performances find him past his prime. I'd give almost anything to hear
him sing the role in, say, 1915.

> The Bjoerling is sui generis, I don't ever expect to hear _that_
> Manrico again.

No, indeed. But he's "refined," too--as much as Bergonzi, if not more
so.

MK

[Richard Loeb]

Well yes Bjoerling was never sloppy - the vocalism is in such a high level I
don't mind a little refinement. Best Richard

"Mitchell Kaufman" <forg...@iaint.disclosinit> wrote in message

news:1gt4oxq.3t37691r64fmuN%forg...@iaint.disclosinit...

[david...@aol.com]

The Opera 101 book is wrong about the usage, cavatina. But so is the
latest edition of Grout/Palisca's History of Western Music, the
standard text read by college and conservatory music students
everywhere.

-david gable

[Matthew B. Tepper]

forg...@iaint.disclosinit (Mitchell Kaufman) appears to have caused the
following letters to be typed in
news:1gt4iil.fn2yx81lt6nb0N%forg...@iaint.disclosinit:

How do you like the 1941 Met broadcast, also with Bjoerling?

--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Take THAT, Daniel Lin, Mark Sadek, James Lin & Christopher Chung!

[Mitchell Kaufman]

Matthew B. Tepper <oy˛@earthlink.net> wrote:

> How do you like the 1941 Met broadcast, also with Bjoerling?

It's O.K. (very good from the standpoint of Björling's performance), but
the rest of the cast (incl. Norina Greco) is no great shakes and the
conducting is pedestrian.

The Covent Garden isn't only a great Björling performance, it's a great
performance of the opera (Cigna, Wettergren, Basiola, conducted by Gui).

MK

[Christophe Schuwey]

I find very sad to cut apart "Tu Vendrai Che Amore in Terra"... it's a
wonderful cabaletta, with a very intense final emetionnaly fulled... But
it's just my opinion ;-)

Best,
Christophe

[Richard Loeb]

Yes the Fedora is wonderfull; ditto the L"Amore de Tre Rei . The Forza is
front line top to bottom - Caniglia (in great form), Massini, Stignani,
Pasero under the great Marinuzzi. In great sound on Naxos Richard
news:1110402501.2...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>I don't think you are going out on a limb at all. I have quite a lot
> of the old Cetra boxed LP sets and indeed I "learned" Fedora from one
> of them when we were going to do it for a radio performance long before
> the parts turned up (so did half of the orchestra!)
>
> Francesca da Rimini is, I think, a wonderful performance. I think that
> in some of the Cetra recordings there is a wonderful sense of "winging
> it" although I do not know the 1941 Forza.
>
> These are, of course, house artists as it were and having spent my life
> playing for house artists I may have a natural sympathy. I would only
> make the point that while the great international stars undoubtedly
> bring wonderful things to music there may be sometimes advantages in
> playing/performing works in a "local" idiom.
>
> I like to think that I have done some decent "local" composer
> performances over the years of some quality with artists unknown on the
> international stage.
>
> Kind regards,
> Alan M. Watkins
>

[alanwa...@aol.com]

[Mitchell Kaufman]

Richard Loeb <loe...@comcast.net> wrote:

> Yes the Fedora is wonderfull; ditto the L"Amore de Tre Rei . The Forza is
> front line top to bottom - Caniglia (in great form), Massini, Stignani,
> Pasero under the great Marinuzzi. In great sound on Naxos

The Francesca is stupendous, one of the most exciting performances of
Italian opera I've ever heard. I'll have to part company with you (and
many others) on the Forza, which I've always found overrated: Caniglia
is O.K., but lacks the glamor of a Tebaldi, Milanov, or Price; as for
Masini, I find the timbre nondescript and the style weepy. Pasero is
fine, though many great bassos recorded the part (and as good as he is,
he's not quite as good as his reputation might lead you to expect). The
conducting to my ears is nothing special, and I wouldn't recommend it
for the sonics.

For me, the best performances of Forza are from the '50's and '60's.

MK

[long_ter...@yahoo.com]

"Pasero is
fine, though many great bassos recorded the part (and as good as he is,
he's not quite as good as his reputation might lead you to expect)."

I wonder who are these "many great bassos"?
I can only think of a couple of bassos who could have been superior to
Pasero in this part, but I don't think they recorded the complete role.

[Mitchell Kaufman]

<long_ter...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Well, you have to include live performance recordings. There, I'd
consider Christoff in the '58 Naples performance and Siepi in the '56
Met broadcast. Then there's Pinza in the '43 Met broadcast, and Ghiaurov
in '78 at La Scala. I also like Giaiotti very much in the second Price
recording, though I don't know if I'd consider him better than Pasero
(though I prefer him).

There's a few for you. And remember: I didn't say many great bassos were
*superior* to Pasero--just that many other great bassos recorded the
part.

I'm sorry, but I've always been underwhelmed by Pasero.

MK

[long_ter...@yahoo.com]

Of the basses you mention, I would only consider Pinza as great (and
generally superior to Pasero), but that Met broadcast of Forza is very
far from great, and I would take
Pasero over Pinza here.

Given the competition, I am a bit puzzlled as to why you are
underwhelmed by Pasero. There are a couple of cds on Preiser featuring
Pasero, and in case you didn't get a chance to hear them already, they
may change your opinion of him.

I also disagree with you about the Marinuzzi recording as a whole. I
don't know any better recording of Forza.

[Richard Loeb]

I agree - Caniglia is a shade flat sometimesbut the most of the time she is
gleaming, powerful and dramatic. Massini is a superb Alvaro - extremely
accurate with a good ring to the voice - Tagliabue, in his prime, is steady
and warm - Stignani is better than anyone else recorded since (please don't
say Verrett!) Marinuzzi is wonderful - more than that the whole has an
idiomatic feel to it that makes this wartime performance more vibrant and
alive than any of the studios efforts since- though many of them have
excelelnt points. Richard
<long_ter...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1110419215....@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...

[Mitchell Kaufman]

<long_ter...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Of the basses you mention, I would only consider Pinza as great (and
> generally superior to Pasero), but that Met broadcast of Forza is very
> far from great, and I would take
> Pasero over Pinza here.
>
> Given the competition, I am a bit puzzlled as to why you are
> underwhelmed by Pasero. There are a couple of cds on Preiser featuring
> Pasero, and in case you didn't get a chance to hear them already, they
> may change your opinion of him.

I'm puzzled as to why a lot of people don't like a lot of the things I
like. It's called "de gustibus," and it's what makes horse races.

BTW, Siepi, Christoff, and Ghiaurov are great singers by my reckoning,
if not by yours.

I think it's time to stop going back and forth about something that's
clearly a matter of taste. Nothing anybody says will make you like what
I like and vice versa.

> I also disagree with you about the Marinuzzi recording as a whole. I
> don't know any better recording of Forza.

Yes, I know.

MK

[Richard Loeb]

Are you kidding??? Those three are wonderful singers - BTW where are the
basses today?????? Richard

"Mitchell Kaufman" <forg...@iaint.disclosinit> wrote in message

news:1gt6dvs.1cwhma3e6heirN%forg...@iaint.disclosinit...

[Matthew B. Tepper]

alanwa...@aol.com appears to have caused the following letters to be
typed in news:1110402501.2...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com:

> I don't think you are going out on a limb at all. I have quite a lot
> of the old Cetra boxed LP sets and indeed I "learned" Fedora from one
> of them when we were going to do it for a radio performance long before
> the parts turned up (so did half of the orchestra!)

The only Fedora I'm interested in is the battered gray one, badly in need
of re-blocking, that I put on my head when I go out in cold weather.