Conductors who didn't do Mahler
Bob Harper
Marsh to the effect that Bruno Walter once asked Toscanini to perform a
Mahler symphony, only to be greeted with the retort, "Mahler's music is
only fit to be used as toilet paper!"
Well, that was Toscanini, who one would not expect to be sympathetic to
Mahler's music (at least I wouldn't; YMMV, but I doubt it). But of the
conductors in the German-Austrian tradition, a number of the real greats
didn't do any (or, in one case, very little) Mahler. AFAIK Karl Böhm
didn't do any Mahler, and while Eugen Jochum made a fine recording of
DLvdE, I know of no other Mahler by him (at least recorded). But the
cases that really interest me are two of our finest Bruckner conductors
(not slighting Böhm or Jochum, to be sure): Celibidache and Gunter Wand.
I remember reading somewhere--perhaps in a liner note--that Wand refused
to conduct Mahler's music, but with no explanation as to why; with
respect to Celibidache, I know he didn't, but have never read why he didn't.
Any insights?
Bob Harper
pgaron
> But of the
> conductors in the German-Austrian tradition, a number of the real greats
> didn't do any (or, in one case, very little) Mahler. AFAIK Karl Böhm
> didn't do any Mahler...
I don't believe Bohm recorded any of the symphonies, but he did record
some of the Mahler lieder with Di Fi-Di. The combination worked well.
pgaron
ivanmaxim
Same with Furtwangler - strange. Wagner fan
Paul Goldstein
says...
Wand gave an interview to Fanfare many years ago in which he discussed his
attitude towards Mahler's music. As I recall, he could not come to grips with
what he considered (quite reasonably) to be the vulgarity of parts of Mahler's
symphonies. I remember him saying, for example, that he greatly admired the
first movement of the 9th symphony but found the Rondo-Burleske extremely
distateful, and therefore could not conduct the entire piece.
As for Bohm and Jochum, it should be kept in mind that they reached maturity at
a time when Mahler could not be performed in their homelands. As you and others
have noted, they did make excellent recordings of some of Mahler's vocal works
in the 1950s and early 1960s. Their semi-contemporary Karajan also came
famously late to Mahler, for the same reason. (As far as I'm concerned, he
should have left well enough alone, except for the live 9th. The studio 4th in
particular is one of the worst Mahler recordings I've ever heard, and the 5th
and 6th aren't much better.)
A long time ago, when RMCR was devoted to the discussion of recordings of
classical music, I started an interesting discussion prompted by my discovery of
Furtwangler's fabulous accompaniment of Fischer-Dieskau in the Lieder eines
fahrenden Gesellen. A Furt. expert commented that Furt. actually conducted
several Mahler symphonies in concert in the 1920s, including IIRC the 3rd! Oh,
for a time machine . . .
mark
Their semi-contemporary Karajan also came
> famously late to Mahler, for the same reason. (As far as I'm concerned, he
> should have left well enough alone, except for the live 9th. The studio 4th in
> particular is one of the worst Mahler recordings I've ever heard, and the 5th
> and 6th aren't much better.)
>
Karajan conducted DLVDE in 1960 with the Vienna Phil. Wunderlich was
soloist on some occasions, Konya on others. He didn't conduct any of
the symphonies until the mid-70s, at which point he racked up about 50
performances of Mahler 4, 5, 6 & 9, mostly 9, until his death.
Unlike you, I hold Karajan's Mahler recordings in very high regard. I
would rate his 6th as the top recommendation, and happen love that
4th you so disparage. I was also privileged to hear Mahler 9 at
Carnegie with Karajan & Berlin. It was an outstanding performance.
But then, I'm not that big of a Mahler fan these days.
mark
>
> Wand gave an interview to Fanfare many years ago in which he discussed his
> attitude towards Mahler's music. As I recall, he could not come to grips with
> what he considered (quite reasonably) to be the vulgarity of parts of Mahler's
> symphonies. I remember him saying, for example, that he greatly admired the
> first movement of the 9th symphony but found the Rondo-Burleske extremely
> distateful, and therefore could not conduct the entire piece.
"I'm not a Mahlerite. In fact, I am a very late convert to Mahler. In
all fairness, it should be said that some of Mahler's movements are
hypertrophic, and are not really capable of salvation." - George
Szell, in an interview with CBS Records' Paul Myers
Randy Lane
On the other side of the coin, Istan Kertesz was a Jew (born in
Hungary).
I see some evidence of a surviving Kindertotenlieder, but no
symphonies.
Has anyone ever read any interviews/documentaries that discuss his
stance on Mahler's music?
Randy Lane
Dorati was also part Jewish, but I've never heard his name associated
with Mahler.
Steve Emerson
Bob Harper <bob.h...@comcast.net> wrote:
I must say that I don't expect the lack of Mahler symphonies by Karl
Bohm is going to keep me up late at night gnashing my teeth.
SE.
Peter Greenstein
"Randy Lane" <randy...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:5e52966a-ed84-436f-976a-
>> On the other side of the coin, Istan Kertesz was a Jew (born in
>> Hungary).
> >I see some evidence of a surviving Kindertotenlieder, but no
> >symphonies.
> >Has anyone ever read any interviews/documentaries that discuss his
> >stance on Mahler's music?
>Dorati was also part Jewish, but I've never heard his name associated
>with Mahler.
Nothing in the recording studio, but Dorati conducted Mahler quite a bit:
Sym. #3 (1947, Dallas), Sym. #1 (1951, Mpls.), Das Lied (1953, Mpls), Sym.
#4, (1959, Mpls.), Sym. #9 (1964, BBC), Sym. No. 2 ( 1967Stockholm), Sym. #6
(1968, Chicago), and that's leaving out duplications and various
Kindertotenlieder, etc.
Come on over to SymphonyShare. The two excellent Mahler 6th's (Chicago and
Philadelphia) have just recently arrived.
peter
ronwhit
Kertesz conducted Mahler 2 with The Cleveland Orchestra in 1968. It
was his first apperance with the orchestra. Later he did
Kindertotenlieder and the Ruckert songs.
Ron Whitaker
Bob Harper
Thanks for all the responses. I thought of someone else, not in the
Austro-German tradition, but--for a reason I hope makes sense--might
well have been expected to conduct Mahler. I refer to Yevgeny Mravinsky.
Given how many of Shostakovich's symphonies he premiered and conducted,
and given the influence of Mahler on Shostakovich, it's a bit surprising
he didn't, AFAIK, perform any Mahler. Bruckner, yes (at least the 8th
and 9th), but no Mahler. Curious.
Bob Harper
jrsnfld
Kertesz also conducted the 4th--a recording with the Bamberg Symphony
shows up here and there; I think it may have been a live performance.
--Jeff
Matthew B. Tepper
following letters to be typed in news:i3dero$lfr$1...@speranza.aioe.org:
> "Randy Lane" <randy...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:5e52966a-ed84-436f-976a-
>>> On the other side of the coin, Istan Kertesz was a Jew (born in
>>> Hungary).
>>
>> > I see some evidence of a surviving Kindertotenlieder, but no
>> > symphonies. Has anyone ever read any interviews/documentaries that
>> > discuss his stance on Mahler's music?
>
>> Dorati was also part Jewish, but I've never heard his name associated
>> with Mahler.
>
> Nothing in the recording studio, but Dorati conducted Mahler quite a bit:
> Sym. #3 (1947, Dallas), Sym. #1 (1951, Mpls.), Das Lied (1953, Mpls),
> Sym. #4, (1959, Mpls.), Sym. #9 (1964, BBC), Sym. No. 2 (1967 Stockholm),
> Sym. #6 (1968, Chicago), and that's leaving out duplications and various
> Kindertotenlieder, etc.
Actually, there WAS something in the recording studio, namely #5, with the
Stockholm Philharmonic Orchestra, issued on LP by HNH.
> Come on over to SymphonyShare. The two excellent Mahler 6th's (Chicago
> and Philadelphia) have just recently arrived.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
Read about "Proty" here: http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
***** War is Peace **** Freedom is Slavery **** Fox is News *****
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers
jrsnfld
Mravinsky's discography suggests a rather restricted repertoire, but,
like Furtwangler, he might have done more pieces when he was younger.
(BTW, he also did Bruckner 7, which is found on disc these days).
Celibidache is another who did practically no Mahler (he did conduct
some of the songs) that I know of.
Keilberth did very little, as far as I can tell. There's a famous
DLvDE, and apparently now one can hear a recording of him doing one
movement of the 1st symphony, as well. Kempe was a name I never
associated with Mahler, but of course now one can buy his 1 and 2 and
DLvDE.
That leaves Abendroth and Konwitschny as two of the biggest names in
the Germanic tradition who, like Wand, seem totally clean of any
Mahler.
--Jeff
jrsnfld
> "Randy Lane" <randy.l...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:5e52966a-ed84-436f-976a-
>
> >> On the other side of the coin, Istan Kertesz was a Jew (born in
> >> Hungary).
> > >I see some evidence of a surviving Kindertotenlieder, but no
> > >symphonies.
> > >Has anyone ever read any interviews/documentaries that discuss his
> > >stance on Mahler's music?
> >Dorati was also part Jewish, but I've never heard his name associated
> >with Mahler.
>
> Nothing in the recording studio, but Dorati conducted Mahler quite a bit:
> Sym. #3 (1947, Dallas), Sym. #1 (1951, Mpls.), Das Lied (1953, Mpls), Sym.
> #4, (1959, Mpls.), Sym. #9 (1964, BBC), Sym. No. 2 ( 1967Stockholm), Sym. #6
> (1968, Chicago), and that's leaving out duplications and various
> Kindertotenlieder, etc.
Dorati's Mahler 5th did see release on LP. I'm blanking on the
orchestra (was that Stockholm?).
--Jeff
Juan Rey
> respect to Celibidache, I know he didn't, but have never read why he didn't.
>
> Any insights?
http://www.celibidache.de/glossar.html#mahler
Mahler, Gustav: Die Werke Gustav Mahlers schätzte Celibidache
grundsätzlich recht gering, er warf dem Komponisten mangelndes
Formgefühl vor und daß er "immer nur anfange und nie aufhöre", was in
dem Sinne zu verstehen ist, daß er Mahlers Fähigkeit zum Verarbeiten
und zu Ende führen von thematischen Entwicklungen in Frage stellte.
Eine gewisse Ausnahme von der Abneigung waren die Lieder Gustav
Mahlers, da diese in ihren einfachen und übersichtlichen Formen
diesbezüglich sich deutlich von den groß angelegten Strukturen der
Symphonien unterschieden. So ist denn auch das einzige Werk, das
Celibidache je von Gustav Mahler aufgeführt hat, ein Liederzyklus,
nämlich die "Kindertotenlieder" (1983 in München mit Brigitte
Faßbaender).
I'll leave it to someone else to translate
RiRiIII
Bob
FWIW, Harnoncourt never conducts Mahler...
Regarding Toscanini, I am pretty sure I read somewhere that he was in
La Scala after the war, and listened to a relearsal of DLVDE and was
very positevely astonished.
Alex
GP49
Mahler, Gustav: Celibidache held the large works of Mahler in low
esteem. He felt
that Mahler lacked a sense of form, and that he would "always begin
but never
finish what he had started." He felt Mahler unable to properly
develop his themes
to a conclusion.
However, he excluded certain of Mahler's songs, in that their clear
and simple form differed
from the too-large scale of the symphonies. The only Mahler work that
Celibidache ever performed was the song cycle
"Kindertotenlieder" (1983 in Munich
with Brigitte Fassbaender).
uncle dave
You mention the German-Austrian tradition, and I think it's been
covered pretty well. I wonder about Richard Strauss, though. I don't
even have a strong intuition one way or the other about him. And I
think you can include Knappertsbusch among the Brucknerians who did no
Mahler. What about Kleiber?
Someone already mentioned Mravinsky, and I, too, have always wondered
considering the Shostakovich Mahler connection.
As far as Italians after Toscanini, as I doubt there were any Cantelli
or de Sabata performances, one might ask who the first important
Italian conductor of Mahler might be. Maderna?
Likewise French conductors. I doubt that there were any performances,
again beyond songs, by Monteux, Munch, or Paray. Maybe Leibowitz.
Would their first important conductor of Mahler be Boulez?
Interesting topic.
Peace,
Uncle Dave
Johannes Roehl
> On Aug 4, 9:31 pm, Bob Harper<bob.har...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> I think everyone here will remember the story reported by Robert Charles
>> Marsh to the effect that Bruno Walter once asked Toscanini to perform a
>> Mahler symphony, only to be greeted with the retort, "Mahler's music is
>> only fit to be used as toilet paper!"
>>
>> Well, that was Toscanini, who one would not expect to be sympathetic to
>> Mahler's music (at least I wouldn't; YMMV, but I doubt it). But of the
>> conductors in the German-Austrian tradition, a number of the real greats
>> didn't do any (or, in one case, very little) Mahler. AFAIK Karl Böhm
>> didn't do any Mahler, and while Eugen Jochum made a fine recording of
>> DLvdE, I know of no other Mahler by him (at least recorded). But the
>> cases that really interest me are two of our finest Bruckner conductors
>> (not slighting Böhm or Jochum, to be sure): Celibidache and Gunter Wand.
>> I remember reading somewhere--perhaps in a liner note--that Wand refused
>> to conduct Mahler's music, but with no explanation as to why; with
>> respect to Celibidache, I know he didn't, but have never read why he didn't.
>>
>> Any insights?
>>
>> Bob Harper
>
> You mention the German-Austrian tradition, and I think it's been
> covered pretty well. I wonder about Richard Strauss, though. I don't
> even have a strong intuition one way or the other about him. And I
> think you can include Knappertsbusch among the Brucknerians who did no
> Mahler. What about Kleiber?
I do not know about Erich. Carlos did at leat DLvdE in concert, there is
a live recording with Kmentt and Ludwig in rather bad sound, but
otherwise very good. Do not only, whether any of them conducted Bruckner.
> Someone already mentioned Mravinsky, and I, too, have always wondered
> considering the Shostakovich Mahler connection.
It seems that Mahler was not so well liked in the Soviet Union.
Kondrashin recorded 1,3-7 and 9, but apparently was not allowed to do 2
and 8, because of the religious connotations
> As far as Italians after Toscanini, as I doubt there were any Cantelli
> or de Sabata performances, one might ask who the first important
> Italian conductor of Mahler might be. Maderna?
or Giulini, who, however recorded only a little Mahler.
> Likewise French conductors. I doubt that there were any performances,
> again beyond songs, by Monteux, Munch, or Paray. Maybe Leibowitz.
> Would their first important conductor of Mahler be Boulez?
Also Fricsay did only Rückert-Lieder on disc, but he might have
conducted more, if he had lived longer (no Bruckner either).
Ansermet and Markevitch conducted neither Mahler nor Bruckner, for all I
know.
Johannes
Sava Savanovic
> Ansermet and Markevitch conducted neither Mahler nor Bruckner, for all I
> know.
>
> Johannes
Markevitch did conduct Mahler's 1st Symphony, there are few live
recordings. According to this site Mravinsky did program Mahler's 5th
four times. How reliable is the concert listing on that site I don't
know.
Thornhill
What you left out, was that Szell also said that he grew up thinking
of Mahler as a great conductor, not composer because that was the
prevailing attitude at the time.
Anyway, none of that stopped him from conducting the 4th, 6th, 9th,
10th (mvt 1 and 3), DLVE, and DKW
Lewis Perin
Fascinating question, and you bring up the seemingly inevitable linkage
between Mahler and Bruckner. This makes me wonder about major
conductors who've espoused Mahler and avoided Bruckner. Boulez has come
around to at least some of Bruckner's symphonies. Are there others
who've completely shunned Bruckner?
/Lew
---
Lew Perin / pe...@acm.org
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html
Matthew B. Tepper
letters to be typed in
Shortly before Toscanini died, a congratulatory telegraph went out over his
name to Bruno Walter, with compliments on the latter's Mahler performances.
You will note that I suggest that I question its authorship.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
Read about "Proty" here: http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Matthew B. Tepper
be typed in
news:6b5490e1-f152-40cc...@d8g2000yqf.googlegroups.com:
> On Aug 5, 12:31 am, "Peter Greenstein" <pgree...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> "Randy Lane" <randy.l...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:5e52966a-ed84-
>> 436f-976a-
>>
>> >> On the other side of the coin, Istan Kertesz was a Jew (born in
>> >> Hungary).
>> >
>> > >I see some evidence of a surviving Kindertotenlieder, but no
>> > >symphonies.
>> > >Has anyone ever read any interviews/documentaries that discuss his
>> > >stance on Mahler's music?
>> >
>> >Dorati was also part Jewish, but I've never heard his name associated
>> >with Mahler.
>>
>> Nothing in the recording studio, but Dorati conducted Mahler quite a
>> bit: Sym. #3 (1947, Dallas), Sym. #1 (1951, Mpls.), Das Lied (1953,
>> Mpls), Sym. #4, (1959, Mpls.), Sym. #9 (1964, BBC), Sym. No. 2 (1967
>> Stockholm), Sym. #6 (1968, Chicago), and that's leaving out duplications
>> and various Kindertotenlieder, etc.
>
> Dorati's Mahler 5th did see release on LP. I'm blanking on the orchestra
> (was that Stockholm?).
Yes, as I already mentioned last night. The fourth side of this 2-LP set
(remember when Mahler symphonies used to stretch across three LP sides?)
was Dorati's own orchestration of a group of Allan Pettersson's "Barefoot
Songs," sung by Erik Saedén.
Matthew B. Tepper
letters to be typed in news:9982bcef-df34-49cf-9034-0a1d8715cac1
@i24g2000yqa.googlegroups.com:
> You mention the German-Austrian tradition, and I think it's been covered
> pretty well. I wonder about Richard Strauss, though. I don't even have
> a strong intuition one way or the other about him.
Didn't Richard Strauss *premiere* one of Mahler's symphonies? At least a
local premiere, anyway.
graham
"GP49" <gpo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:5c04393f-5756-497a...@l25g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
That's pretty much my reaction to Mahler's music.
Graham
Ed Presson
____________
I once had a Mahler Fifth on HNH LPs coupled with Dorati's orchestrations of
some of Pettersson's "Barefoot Songs."
Ed Presson
Randy Lane
> "Randy Lane" <randy.l...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> - Show quoted text -
I rememebred/found that recording too after my post.
I guess my point in my post was that, with the exception of Klemperer,
I can't recall any high-stature Jewish (or part Jewish) conductor that
has made Mahler's music a large/important part of their repertory.
Gerard
Wasn't Bernstein Jewish?
And Bertini?
Or weren't they "high-stature"?
GP49
> I guess my point in my post was that, with the exception of Klemperer,
> I can't recall any high-stature Jewish (or part Jewish) conductor that
> has made Mahler's music a large/important part of their repertory.
In no particular order:
Bruno Walter
Daniel Barenboim
Leonard Bernstein
Jascha Horenstein
Michael Tilson Thomas
Maurice Abravanel
Oskar Fried
Paul Kletzki
Erich Leinsdorf
and
Gustav Mahler
There are many more. For a list of Jewish conductors, go to:
http://www.jinfo.org/Conductors.html
Matthew B. Tepper
letters to be typed in news:i3ek75$jn3$1...@news.eternal-september.org:
> I once had a Mahler Fifth on HNH LPs coupled with Dorati's
> orchestrations of some of Pettersson's "Barefoot Songs."
I still have mine, and I made my own transfer of the songs.
graham
"Bob Harper" <bob.h...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:cop6o.373974$iG7.2...@en-nntp-12.dc1.easynews.com...
>I think everyone here will remember the story reported by Robert Charles
>Marsh to the effect that Bruno Walter once asked Toscanini to perform a
>Mahler symphony, only to be greeted with the retort, "Mahler's music is
>only fit to be used as toilet paper!"
>
> Well, that was Toscanini, who one would not expect to be sympathetic to
> Mahler's music (at least I wouldn't; YMMV, but I doubt it). But of the
> conductors in the German-Austrian tradition, a number of the real greats
> didn't do any (or, in one case, very little) Mahler. AFAIK Karl Böhm
> didn't do any Mahler, and while Eugen Jochum made a fine recording of
> DLvdE, I know of no other Mahler by him (at least recorded). But the cases
> that really interest me are two of our finest Bruckner conductors (not
> slighting Böhm or Jochum, to be sure): Celibidache and Gunter Wand. I
> remember reading somewhere--perhaps in a liner note--that Wand refused to
>
to take him on, so to speak.
Graham
Randy Lane
Bernstein came to mind too. But I was not off-the-top-of-my-head not
aware the others in your list were Jewish. Shows you how much I check
out the backgrounds of musicians I listen to or follow.
I have not followed Barenboim much lately. His name came to mind as
another long asociated with Bruckner but not with, or far less with,
Mahler.
I see he too admits his interest in Mahler came very late in his life/
career.
MELMOTH
05/08/2010, dans nos oreilles grandes ouvertes mais un peu sales tout
de même, et dans le message
<cop6o.373974$iG7.2...@en-nntp-12.dc1.easynews.com>, les doux
mélismes suivants :
> Well, that was Toscanini, who one would not expect to be sympathetic
> to Mahler's music (at least I wouldn't; YMMV, but I doubt it). But of
> the conductors in the German-Austrian tradition, a number of the real
> greats didn't do any (or, in one case, very little) Mahler. AFAIK
> Karl Böhm didn't do any Mahler, and while Eugen Jochum made a fine
> recording of DLvdE, I know of no other Mahler by him (at least
> recorded). But the cases that really interest me are two of our
> finest Bruckner conductors (not slighting Böhm or Jochum, to be
> sure): Celibidache and Gunter Wand. I remember reading
> somewhere--perhaps in a liner note--that Wand refused to conduct
> Mahler's music, but with no explanation as to why; with respect to
> Celibidache, I know he didn't, but have never read why he didn't.
> Any insights?
Except for "Kindertoten Lieder", *Monteux* did nether played Mahler
(nor Bruckner)...
--
Car avec beaucoup de science, il y a beaucoup de chagrin ; et celui qui
accroît sa science accroît sa douleur.
[Ecclésiaste, 1-18]
MELMOTH - souffrant
O
<f5ae63d1-a020-4477...@x20g2000pro.googlegroups.com>,
GP49 <gpo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Aug 5, 8:24 am, Randy Lane <randy.l...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I guess my point in my post was that, with the exception of Klemperer,
> > I can't recall any high-stature Jewish (or part Jewish) conductor that
> > has made Mahler's music a large/important part of their repertory.
>
> In no particular order:
>
> Bruno Walter
> Daniel Barenboim
> Leonard Bernstein
> Jascha Horenstein
> Michael Tilson Thomas
> Maurice Abravanel
> Oskar Fried
> Paul Kletzki
> Erich Leinsdorf
>
> and
>
> Gustav Mahler
>
Also Yoel Levi and Michael Gielen.
-Owen
mark
The Szell quote above came near the end of his life. The part I "left
out" has no bearing on the import of that quote.
I'm well aware of what Mahler Szell did conduct. I've always assumed
that the "hypertrophy" he referred to occurs in pieces like Syms 2, 3
& 8. For a conductor of Szell's stature to label certain Mahler
movements "not really capable of salvation" is pretty damning.
mark
> In article
> <f5ae63d1-a020-4477-8fbb-ab40f650b...@x20g2000pro.googlegroups.com>,
>
>
>
> GP49 <gpoo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Aug 5, 8:24 am, Randy Lane <randy.l...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > I guess my point in my post was that, with the exception of Klemperer,
> > > I can't recall any high-stature Jewish (or part Jewish) conductor that
> > > has made Mahler's music a large/important part of their repertory.
>
> > In no particular order:
>
> > Bruno Walter
> > Daniel Barenboim
> > Leonard Bernstein
> > Jascha Horenstein
> > Michael Tilson Thomas
> > Maurice Abravanel
> > Oskar Fried
> > Paul Kletzki
> > Erich Leinsdorf
>
> > and
>
> > Gustav Mahler
>
> Also Yoel Levi and Michael Gielen.
>
> -Owen
No mention of Maazel. That's strange, considering he's the only
conductor to have recorded the entire cycle with Vienna, and on a
major label, no less.
Bob Harper
(snip)
>
> I rememebred/found that recording too after my post.
> I guess my point in my post was that, with the exception of Klemperer,
> I can't recall any high-stature Jewish (or part Jewish) conductor that
> has made Mahler's music a large/important part of their repertory.
Bob Harper
Bob Harper
(snip)
>
> I'm well aware of what Mahler Szell did conduct. I've always assumed
> that the "hypertrophy" he referred to occurs in pieces like Syms 2, 3
> & 8. For a conductor of Szell's stature to label certain Mahler
> movements "not really capable of salvation" is pretty damning.
Of Mahler or of Szell?
Bob Harper
Paul Goldstein
>Fascinating question, and you bring up the seemingly inevitable linkage
>between Mahler and Bruckner. This makes me wonder about major
>conductors who've espoused Mahler and avoided Bruckner. Boulez has come
>around to at least some of Bruckner's symphonies. Are there others
>who've completely shunned Bruckner?
I'm unaware of any Bruckner conducted by the great Mahler pioneers Scherchen and
Mitropoulos. Bernstein did very little Bruckner, the 6th in concert in New
York, the 9th in the studio twice; I don't know of any others.
Of course, the linkage of Mahler and Bruckner is musically spurious. They have
very little in common musically except for the length of their symphonies.
Bob Harper
Bernstein, I suppose, comes closest, but he made two recordings of the
9th (neither particularly distinguished, I seem to recall), and there's
a reportedly excellent live recording of the 6th in one of NYP boxes
which I heard once some years back. I say reportedly only because I
don't remember much about it.
Carlos Kleiber, of course, but he did only DLvdE (and only two
performances, I believe), and given the size of his repertoire I can't
think of him as typical.
I'm sure others will add some names.
Bob Harper
Bob Harper
Bob Harper
Bruckner 8 out on Hänssler Profil, but I'm unaware of any Mahler.
And speaking of CT, any reactions to his recording of the Ring?
Bob Harper
jrsnfld
> "Ed Presson" <pe...@comcast.net> appears to have caused the following
>
> > I once had a Mahler Fifth on HNH LPs coupled with Dorati's
> > orchestrations of some of Pettersson's "Barefoot Songs."
>
> I still have mine, and I made my own transfer of the songs.
Yep, I still have mine too, though I didn't feel a need to make a
transfer.
--Jeff
Dontait...@aol.com
> "Randy Lane" <randy.l...@gmail.com> wrote in message
[in part]
> >Dorati was also part Jewish, but I've never heard his name associated
> >with Mahler.
>
> Nothing in the recording studio, but Dorati conducted Mahler quite a bit:
> Sym. #3 (1947, Dallas), Sym. #1 (1951, Mpls.), Das Lied (1953, Mpls), Sym.
> #4, (1959, Mpls.), Sym. #9 (1964, BBC), Sym. No. 2 ( 1967Stockholm), Sym. #6
> (1968, Chicago), and that's leaving out duplications and various
> Kindertotenlieder, etc.
>
> Come on over to SymphonyShare. The two excellent Mahler 6th's (Chicago and
> Philadelphia) have just recently arrived.
>
> peter
The Chicago 6th (1968) was the first time the CSO ever performed
Mahler's 6th Symphony, interestingly. It's a superb performance from
all concerned, including Dorati's conducting.
Don Tait
Peter Greenstein
<Dontait...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:abd5ce84-08c1-482d...@k19g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...
>Don Tait
Two examples from Dorati's Mahler 6th: some of the really hectic, wild
sequences in the last movement seem to have an almost Bartokian accent,
though this may be a projection on my part; the first few minutes of the
last movement have a wonderful, kind of dramatic narrative, something I
really miss in a Boulez's Chicago broadcast (1994) that I just listened to.
Also, the third movement is a real beauty.
I never investigated Dorati's Mahler 5th, and had completely forgotten about
it. Does anybody have any impressions?
peter
Doug McDonald
> I can't recall any high-stature Jewish (or part Jewish) conductor that
> has made Mahler's music a large/important part of their repertory.
Duh! Uh????
Leonard Bernstein.
mark
> Fascinating question, and you bring up the seemingly inevitable linkage
> between Mahler and Bruckner.
In the same interview I cited above, George Szell opined that Mahler
and Bruckner couldn't be more dissimilar, and felt that the most
likely reason for people linking them together is the fact that both
of their names end in the letters "e - r."
Dontait...@aol.com
> On Aug 4, 9:31 pm, Bob Harper <bob.har...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > I think everyone here will remember the story reported by Robert Charles
> > Marsh to the effect that Bruno Walter once asked Toscanini to perform a
> > Mahler symphony, only to be greeted with the retort, "Mahler's music is
> > only fit to be used as toilet paper!"
>
> > Well, that was Toscanini, who one would not expect to be sympathetic to
> > Mahler's music (at least I wouldn't; YMMV, but I doubt it).
The quoted comment sounds like fairly typical hyperbole from
Toscanini, but he evidently just didn't like Mahler's music. In Harvey
Sachs's "The Letters of Arturo Toscanini" (Knopf, 2002) there is a
translation of a fascinating letter Toscanini wrote to his friend
Enrico Polo on January 1, 1905. Toscanini begins by thanking Polo for
the unexpected gift of the score of Mahler's 5th Symphony (then brand-
new) and says "I cannot tell you how much joy and how much curiosity
its unexpected arrival brought me, but you can easily imagine. I read
through it immediately, or rather devoured it -- but unfortunately in
the course of this ferocious musical meal my initial joy and curiosity
gradually waned, and by the end they were transformed into sad, very
sad hilarity." Toscanini lists at least some of his objections in a
lengthy next paragraph. (Page 69.)
> You mention the German-Austrian tradition, and I think it's been
> covered pretty well. I wonder about Richard Strauss, though. I don't
> even have a strong intuition one way or the other about him. And I
> think you can include Knappertsbusch among the Brucknerians who did no
> Mahler. What about Kleiber?
It might be important to mention that Knappertsbusch's and Kleiber's
(Erich?) careers went back to the early years of the 20th century, and
they could have conducted some Mahler in the 1920s, for starters and
seem to have left none in extant recordings of any type. But you
probably meant that.
> Someone already mentioned Mravinsky, and I, too, have always wondered
> considering the Shostakovich Mahler connection.
> As far as Italians after Toscanini, as I doubt there were any Cantelli
> or de Sabata performances, one might ask who the first important
> Italian conductor of Mahler might be. Maderna?
> Likewise French conductors. I doubt that there were any performances,
> again beyond songs, by Monteux, Munch, or Paray. Maybe Leibowitz.
Again, Monteux's symphonic conducting career went back to before
World War I and one would want to see a complete listing of his
repertoire, if there is such a thing. Especially for his years as
conductor of the Boston Symphony. Munch doesn't seem to have conducted
much of Mahler's symphonic music, but he did do the two then-published
movements of the 10th Symphony with the BSO around 1958. Not very
idiomatic, as I recall. As for Paray, there is an in-concert recording
of him doing the 5th Symphony with the Detroit SO. An excellent
version.
> Would their first important conductor of Mahler be Boulez?
> Interesting topic.
Indeed.
Don Tait
Dontait...@aol.com
> In article
> <f5ae63d1-a020-4477-8fbb-ab40f650b...@x20g2000pro.googlegroups.com>,
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Aug 5, 8:24 am, Randy Lane <randy.l...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > I guess my point in my post was that, with the exception of Klemperer,
> > > I can't recall any high-stature Jewish (or part Jewish) conductor that
> > > has made Mahler's music a large/important part of their repertory.
>
> > In no particular order:
>
> > Bruno Walter
> > Daniel Barenboim
> > Leonard Bernstein
> > Jascha Horenstein
> > Michael Tilson Thomas
> > Maurice Abravanel
> > Oskar Fried
> > Paul Kletzki
> > Erich Leinsdorf
>
> > and
>
> > Gustav Mahler
>
> Also Yoel Levi and Michael Gielen.
>
> -Owen
And Serge Koussevitzky and Fritz Reiner and Leo Blech. And Sir Georg
Solti.
Don Tait
GP49
> I never investigated Dorati's Mahler 5th, and had completely forgotten about
> it. Does anybody have any impressions?
===============================
One quote from the Web.
"With the same orchestra Dorati also made his only commercial Mahler
recording, of the Fifth Symphony. It too is very well played and
recorded, but the interpretation is much too literal. In this and in
his radio broadcasts of other Mahler Symphonies, Dorati appears to be
completely out of sympathy with Mahler’s temperament and the results,
for me at least, are bloodless, however committed the playing."
Read more: http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2007/Oct07/Dorati_flynn.htm#ixzz0vkuYz1tR
Take it for what it's worth. I haven't heard it recently enough to
say for myself. However, this makes me think about converting my HNH
to digital files, and post 'em. Since it's long out of print and
apparently unavailable anywhere, that's a possibility, when I've got a
few hours to set aside for the project.
Dontait...@aol.com
> In article <pc762zp87n0....@panix5.panix.com>, Lewis Perin says...
>
> >Fascinating question, and you bring up the seemingly inevitable linkage
> >between Mahler and Bruckner. This makes me wonder about major
> >conductors who've espoused Mahler and avoided Bruckner. Boulez has come
> >around to at least some of Bruckner's symphonies. Are there others
> >who've completely shunned Bruckner?
Willem Mengelberg was a fanatical champion of Mahler's music and
conducted it constantly, but based upon what I've read his interest in
Bruckner was limited. I've read that he conducted Bruckner's
symphonies once in a while (I believe he did #9 with the New York
Philharmonic), but that when he had Eduard van Beinum (who loved
Bruckner's music) hired as second conductor of the Concertgebouw
Orchestra in 1931, Mengelberg essentially left Bruckner to him.
> I'm unaware of any Bruckner conducted by the great Mahler pioneers Scherchen and
> Mitropoulos. Bernstein did very little Bruckner, the 6th in concert in New
> York, the 9th in the studio twice; I don't know of any others.
I'm not aware of any Bruckner conducted by Mitropoulos either. At
the end of his life, Scherchen was conducting Bruckner's Symphony #2.
He did it in Toronto, I believe, and was scheduled to conduct it with
the Chicago Symphony (his CSO debut). I couldn't wait to hear him in
person. Then, sigh, he died. There might be a recording of him doing
it in North America; Bruckner experts here will know. I seem to recall
that he made cuts in the score. But he certainly never recorded any
Bruckner commercially.
Bernstein evidently just didn't like most of Bruckner's music and,
being Lenny, could cogently explain precisely why. Henry Fogel told me
a story about it. He was with Bernstein, and being Henry, who loves
Bruckner's music, he asked Lenny why he conducted so little Bruckner.
Especially the 8th Symphony, which Henry especially loves. Henry said
Bernstein went to a piano in the room and instantly began to play one
thing from the symphony after another from memory, explaining why he
thought what Bruckner had written was bad. Or worse.
> Of course, the linkage of Mahler and Bruckner is musically spurious. They have
> very little in common musically except for the length of their symphonies.
Yes, musically spurious for sure.
Don Tait
Dontait...@aol.com
[snip]
> I've taken a bit of an interest in the life of Carlos Kleiber, and as far as
> I can tell, he never performed Mahler. The same possibly goes for his father,
> Erich Kleiber, notwithstanding the fact that it was apparently Mahler who
> inspired him to become a conductor. Also, I don't recall Sir Thomas Beecham
> or Charles Dutoit being associated with Mahler.
Beecham conducted Mahler's 4th Symphony at one of his earliest
London concerts, around 1909. He seems to have never conducted any
music by Mahler again. Most of it certainly seems like music that
would not have appealed to him.
I haven't researched this information, sorry. I'll do so.
Don Tait
Juan Rey
> uncle dave <david.fors...@sbcglobal.net> appears to have caused the following
> letters to be typed in news:9982bcef-df34-49cf-9034-0a1d8715cac1
> @i24g2000yqa.googlegroups.com:
>
> > You mention the German-Austrian tradition, and I think it's been covered
> > pretty well. I wonder about Richard Strauss, though. I don't even have
> > a strong intuition one way or the other about him.
>
> local premiere, anyway.
I too am pretty sure that Strauss conducted Mahler. I can't find a
reference, but this rather suggests it:
"Strauss’s first major act upon becoming President of the Allgemeiner
Deutscher Musikverein, or General German Music Association, in 1901,
was to program Mahler’s Third Symphony for the festival the following
year; indeed, Mahler’s works dominated the Association’s programs for
several years running. So much Mahler was played under Strauss’s watch
that some critics took to calling the ADMV the Allgemeiner Deutscher
Mahlerverein. Others dubbed it the Annual German Carnival of
Cacophony."
Bob Harper
(snip)
>
> Bernstein evidently just didn't like most of Bruckner's music and,
> being Lenny, could cogently explain precisely why. Henry Fogel told
> me a story about it. He was with Bernstein, and being Henry, who
> loves Bruckner's music, he asked Lenny why he conducted so little
> Bruckner. Especially the 8th Symphony, which Henry especially loves.
> Henry said Bernstein went to a piano in the room and instantly began
> to play one thing from the symphony after another from memory,
> explaining why he thought what Bruckner had written was bad. Or
> worse.
>
> Don Tait
>
I've read that story before. Just goes to how how wrong someone who is
otherwise an admitted genius at what he does can be.
Bob Harper
M forever
> In article <pc762zp87n0....@panix5.panix.com>, Lewis Perin says...
>
> >Fascinating question, and you bring up the seemingly inevitable linkage
> >between Mahler and Bruckner. This makes me wonder about major
> >conductors who've espoused Mahler and avoided Bruckner. Boulez has come
> >around to at least some of Bruckner's symphonies. Are there others
> >who've completely shunned Bruckner?
>
> I'm unaware of any Bruckner conducted by the great Mahler pioneers Scherchen and
> Mitropoulos. Bernstein did very little Bruckner, the 6th in concert in New
> York, the 9th in the studio twice; I don't know of any others.
HIs second 9th is actually a live performance - it was also his last
appearance with the Wiener Philharmoniker in the Musikverein. Not that
that matters much, it's just an interesting detail.
M forever
> In article <cop6o.373974$iG7.279...@en-nntp-12.dc1.easynews.com>, Bob Harper
> says...
>
>
>
>
>
> >I think everyone here will remember the story reported by Robert Charles
> >Marsh to the effect that Bruno Walter once asked Toscanini to perform a
> >Mahler symphony, only to be greeted with the retort, "Mahler's music is
> >only fit to be used as toilet paper!"
>
> >Well, that was Toscanini, who one would not expect to be sympathetic to
> >conductors in the German-Austrian tradition, a number of the real greats
> >didn't do any (or, in one case, very little) Mahler. AFAIK Karl Böhm
> >didn't do any Mahler, and while Eugen Jochum made a fine recording of
> >DLvdE, I know of no other Mahler by him (at least recorded). But the
> >cases that really interest me are two of our finest Bruckner conductors
> >(not slighting Böhm or Jochum, to be sure): Celibidache and Gunter Wand.
> >I remember reading somewhere--perhaps in a liner note--that Wand refused
> >to conduct Mahler's music, but with no explanation as to why; with
> >respect to Celibidache, I know he didn't, but have never read why he didn't.
>
> attitude towards Mahler's music. As I recall, he could not come to grips with
> what he considered (quite reasonably) to be the vulgarity of parts of Mahler's
> symphonies. I remember him saying, for example, that he greatly admired the
> first movement of the 9th symphony but found the Rondo-Burleske extremely
> distateful, and therefore could not conduct the entire piece.
>
> a time when Mahler could not be performed in their homelands. As you and others
> have noted, they did make excellent recordings of some of Mahler's vocal works
> in the 1950s and early 1960s. Their semi-contemporary Karajan also came
> famously late to Mahler, for the same reason. (As far as I'm concerned, he
> should have left well enough alone, except for the live 9th. The studio 4th in
> particular is one of the worst Mahler recordings I've ever heard,
How so?
> and the 5th
> and 6th aren't much better.)
>
> A long time ago, when RMCR was devoted to the discussion of recordings of
> classical music, I started an interesting discussion prompted by my discovery of
> Furtwangler's fabulous accompaniment of Fischer-Dieskau in the Lieder eines
> fahrenden Gesellen. A Furt. expert commented that Furt. actually conducted
> several Mahler symphonies in concert in the 1920s, including IIRC the 3rd! Oh,
> for a time machine . . .
Yes, he conducted the 3rd, and some more Mahler symphonies. I have a
database with BP concerts of the period somewhere, but no access to it
right now.
Doug McDonald
>> Of course, the linkage of Mahler and Bruckner is musically spurious. They have
>> very little in common musically except for the length of their symphonies.
>
And their love of brass
Doug McDonald
M forever
Oh, I have the database here after all.
Furtwängler conducted LefG, #3, #1, #4, and several unspecified
Lieder.
BTW, Nikisch conducted a lot of Mahler in Berlin: #5, Kindertotenl.,
#3, #2, #4, DLvdE, LefG, #1, even #7 which is still comparatively
rarely played, and several Lieder.
Mahler himself conducted the Berliner Philharmoniker #2 and #3.
While his music was not played in Berlin nearly as often as it is
today, it was played far more often than many think. And contrary to
popular opinion, his music was played in Vienna *a lot*, again not as
much as today - but that is the case anywhere - but fairly often and
regularly, from early on and right until the forced hiatus after the
"Anschluss" of 1938, and picked up again immediately right after the
war. The first post-war concert of the Wiener Symphoniker was Mahler's
3rd (with Josef Krips).
Unfortunately, the online archive of the Musikverein only goes back to
1963, but the online archive of the Konzerthaus goes all the way back
to its opening in 1913. Searching for Mahler there reveals literally
hundreds of concerts even before the so-called "Mahler renaissance".
And that's in only one of Vienna's two major concert halls. Especially
in the 20s, his music was played very frequently. It is interesting to
see that particularly the 2nd and 8th symphonies were very popular,
especially given the large forces required for these works. In the
20s, Anton Webern also conducted several of the symphonies. That would
have been really interesting to see, too...
Bob Harper
(snip)
> While his music was not played in Berlin nearly as often as it is
> today, it was played far more often than many think. And contrary to
> popular opinion, his music was played in Vienna *a lot*, again not as
> much as today - but that is the case anywhere - but fairly often and
> regularly, from early on and right until the forced hiatus after the
> "Anschluss" of 1938, and picked up again immediately right after the
> war. The first post-war concert of the Wiener Symphoniker was Mahler's
> 3rd (with Josef Krips).
>
> Unfortunately, the online archive of the Musikverein only goes back to
> 1963, but the online archive of the Konzerthaus goes all the way back
> to its opening in 1913. Searching for Mahler there reveals literally
> hundreds of concerts even before the so-called "Mahler renaissance".
> And that's in only one of Vienna's two major concert halls. Especially
> in the 20s, his music was played very frequently. It is interesting to
> see that particularly the 2nd and 8th symphonies were very popular,
> especially given the large forces required for these works. In the
> 20s, Anton Webern also conducted several of the symphonies. That would
> have been really interesting to see, too...
That makes more sense than the 'prophet without honor in his own land'
narrative, and yes, it would have been fascinating to here Webern
conduct Mahler (or just about anything, come to think of it).
Given all that, how do you explain LB's (in)famous rehearsal tantrum
with the VPO? Was it simply a conflict of visions, or what?
Bob Harper
Paul
> On Aug 5, 12:22 pm, Paul Goldstein <pgold...@newsguy.com> wrote:
>
> > In article <pc762zp87n0....@panix5.panix.com>, Lewis Perin says...
>
> > >Fascinating question, and you bring up the seemingly inevitable linkage
> > >between Mahler and Bruckner. This makes me wonder about major
> > >conductors who've espoused Mahler and avoided Bruckner. Boulez has come
> > >around to at least some of Bruckner's symphonies. Are there others
> > >who've completely shunned Bruckner?
>
> > I'm unaware of any Bruckner conducted by the great Mahler pioneers Scherchen and
> > Mitropoulos. Bernstein did very little Bruckner, the 6th in concert in New
> > York, the 9th in the studio twice; I don't know of any others.
>
> HIs second 9th is actually a live performance - it was also his last
> appearance with the Wiener Philharmoniker in the Musikverein. Not that
> that matters much, it's just an interesting detail.
Yes, good point. Bernstein of course made his commercial recordings
"in concert" from the mid-1970s onwards. I actually like both of his
Bruckner 9 recordings quite a bit.
Paul
It is extremely constipated, joyless, and lacking a sense of wonder.
mark
Their semi-contemporary Karajan also came
> > > famously late to Mahler, for the same reason. (As far as I'm concerned, he
> > > should have left well enough alone, except for the live 9th. The studio 4th in
> > > particular is one of the worst Mahler recordings I've ever heard,
>
> > How so?
>
> It is extremely constipated, joyless, and lacking a sense of wonder.
Needless to say, I totally disagree. It's a beautifully played
performance.
M forever
Sorry, I don't understand the meaning of the term "constipated". I
mean, when it comes to music. I know what it means in non-musical
situations LOL
Can you explain your view in musical terms? Just curious, BTW, I don't
have an opinion about this recording since I never heard it (I have it
though, and may listen to it later even though I am on a Mahler diet
right now). But, as Mark pointed out, many hold K's Mahler recordings
in high esteem, and that includes Yours Truly, at least when it comes
to the ones I know which is 5, 9 (both versions) and DLvdE -
especially 9 of which I think K is among the very best (that I know).
Jeff
Yes, the live 1965 radio broadcast of Scherchen's strangely bipolar
Bruckner Second is available on a cheap CD-R from Disco Archivia (the
coupling is a live Copland First with the composer leading the Boston
Symphony). Scherchen inflicts an enormous cut in the Bruckner's finale
and then makes a mad dash to the finish line.
Jeff Lipscomb
Paul
Erich Leinsdorf counted a Webern-conducted Mahler 6 in Vienna among
the great experiences of his youth (Cadenza, p. 21). Ditto a Clemens
Krauss Mahler 7th.
uncle dave
I must get into Webern. Everything I learn about him is very
interesting, but it's all a jumble in my head.
Somewhere on the internet - not to get too specific, or be very
helpful - I found the second movement of Mahler 2 conducted by
Schoenberg. The orchestra is called the Cadillac Symphony. It's very
interesting. The style of playing seems very loose and old-style, and
every time I've listened to it, I'm drawn in completely. Does anyone
know anything about this performance? Is there more or only II? And
how much conducting did he do in general. I remember reading
somewhere a description of a Schoenberg performance - I think it was
Hindemith or Klemperer doing the talking, but that could be completely
wrong - of Brahms 3 where his mastery of the meter of I really made an
impression.
Demonstrating the science of remembering details,
Uncle Dave
Paul
I ditched my copy of the CD many years ago, so I can't cite specific
details. If you post an mp3 of the first movement, though, I will
listen to it again, at least for a little while.
M forever
Yes, Strauss conducted several of the Mahler symphonies. I know for
sure he conducted #1 and #4 in Berlin during Mahler's lifetime. And
probably more on other occasions.
wkasimer
> And speaking of CT, any reactions to his recording of the Ring?
I haven't heard the commercial release, and have no plans to purchase
it. I heard the broadcasts, and while the conducting was fine, the
singing varied between mediocre and atrocious.
There's potential for a good RING recording, at least in the studio -
once Pape takes on Wotan, he'll be an obvious choice, and with Brewer
and Heppner, that will cover the major roles reasonably well. But it
will have to be done soon.
Bill
Doru
> I'm unaware of any Bruckner conducted by the great Mahler pioneers Scherchen and
> Mitropoulos. Bernstein did very little Bruckner, the 6th in concert in New
> York, the 9th in the studio twice; I don't know of any others.
Scherchen made his conducting debut with Bruckner's 9th symphony.
Best regards,
Doru Ionescu
J.Martin
> several Mahler symphonies in concert in the 1920s, including IIRC the 3rd! Oh,
> for a time machine . .
I happen to know that's correct. If memory serves, Furtwangler also
conducted the 1st symphony.
And while we're wishing for a time machine, let me mention another
event worth pining for: Apparently, shortly after Mahler's death,
Nikisch conducted a memorial concert featuring the 5th.
J.Martin
> > movements "not really capable of salvation" is pretty damning.
>
> Of Mahler or of Szell?
>
Let me suggest a further alternative: perhaps what really deserves
damning is notion that has prevailed for some decades now that a
conductor isn't really great unless he conducts *everything* by
Beethoven, Brahms, Mahler etc. Earlier generations were allowed to
pick and choose, and nobody thought it was a damning statement about
anyone.
makropulos
> uncle dave <david.fors...@sbcglobal.net> appears to have caused the following
> letters to be typed in news:9982bcef-df34-49cf-9034-0a1d8715cac1
> @i24g2000yqa.googlegroups.com:
>
> > You mention the German-Austrian tradition, and I think it's been covered
> > pretty well. I wonder about Richard Strauss, though. I don't even have
> > a strong intuition one way or the other about him.
>
> Didn't Richard Strauss *premiere* one of Mahler's symphonies? At least a
> local premiere, anyway.
>
> Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
> Read about "Proty" here:http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
> To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
> Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers
Yes, Matthew - you're absolutely right.
Strauss's Mahler performances included:
January 16th 1901: Symphony No. 4, Berlin (that was the local
premiere, I think), and again January 15th 1909, Berlin
December 3 1909: Symphony No. 1
December 11 1911: Symphony No. 3
November 7 1913: DlvdE
November 25 1914: Symphony No. 2
So he was quite a serious Mahlerian....
mark
Agreed.
They can conduct Bruckner, but how do they do with Puccini (a composer
whose music is challenging to conduct on many levels and for many
reasons)?
Bob Harper
(snip)
>
> sure he conducted #1 and #4 in Berlin during Mahler's lifetime. And
> probably more on other occasions.
Do we know whether either performance made it past the 45 minute mark? :)
Bob Harper
Bob Harper
Bob Harper
Greg
> I ditched my copy of the CD many years ago, so I can't cite specific
> details. If you post an mp3 of the first movement, though, I will
> listen to it again, at least for a little while.
If you do, I doubt you will change your mind. Slow, heavy, thick,
badly recorded, etc...Not Karajan's best Mahler by a long shot. I'm
not much of a Karajan fan in general, but some of his Mahler is
surprisingly good (6, the live 9). But not his 4.
Greg
Peter Greenstein
"makropulos" <makro...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:b2c24a26-346f-4c86-b669-
>Yes, Matthew - you're absolutely right.
>Strauss's Mahler performances included:
>January 16th 1901: Symphony No. 4, Berlin (that was the local
>premiere, I think), and again January 15th 1909, Berlin
>December 3 1909: Symphony No. 1
>December 11 1911: Symphony No. 3
>November 7 1913: DlvdE
>November 25 1914: Symphony No. 2
>So he was quite a serious Mahlerian....
I can't remember the source, but I thought somebody Strauss told someone
that he had a score of the Mahler 2nd at his piano and always learned from
it.
peter
Edward Cowan
performances of Hermann Abendroth conducting the Leipzig Gewandhaus
Orch. in works by Bach, Handel, Haydn, Mozart, Schubert, Schumann, and
Brahms, contains a reproduction of the program for a postwar Gewandhaus
concert in a cinema, 26 July 1945. The program is as follows:
Beethoven: Leonore Overture no.1, Op.138
Mendelssohn: Violin con. in E-minor, Op.64 (Kurt Stiehler, vln.)
Mahler: Symphony no. 1
This remains, to my limited knowledge, just a single instance of
Abendroth's conducting a work by Gustav Mahler. --E.A.C.
jrsnfld <jrs...@aol.com> wrote:
> That leaves Abendroth and Konwitschny as two of the biggest names in
> the Germanic tradition who, like Wand, seem totally clean of any
> Mahler.
--
hrabanus
ronwhit
> Ce cher mammifère du nom de Bob Harper nous susurrait, le jeudi
> 05/08/2010, dans nos oreilles grandes ouvertes mais un peu sales tout
> de même, et dans le message
> <cop6o.373974$iG7.279...@en-nntp-12.dc1.easynews.com>, les doux
> mélismes suivants :
>
> > Well, that was Toscanini, who one would not expect to be sympathetic
> > to Mahler's music (at least I wouldn't; YMMV, but I doubt it). But of
> > the conductors in the German-Austrian tradition, a number of the real
> > greats didn't do any (or, in one case, very little) Mahler. AFAIK
> > Karl Böhm didn't do any Mahler, and while Eugen Jochum made a fine
> > recording of DLvdE, I know of no other Mahler by him (at least
> > recorded). But the cases that really interest me are two of our
> > finest Bruckner conductors (not slighting Böhm or Jochum, to be
> > sure): Celibidache and Gunter Wand. I remember reading
> > somewhere--perhaps in a liner note--that Wand refused to conduct
> > Mahler's music, but with no explanation as to why; with respect to
> > Celibidache, I know he didn't, but have never read why he didn't.
>
> Except for "Kindertoten Lieder", *Monteux* did nether played Mahler
> (nor Bruckner)...
>
> --
> Car avec beaucoup de science, il y a beaucoup de chagrin ; et celui qui
> accroît sa science accroît sa douleur.
> [Ecclésiaste, 1-18]
> MELMOTH - souffrant
Monteux conducted Mahler 1 during his tenure in Boston in the early
20's. The score he used in still in the Boston Symphony library, and
shows the many cuts (several of which are rather brutal) he inflicted
upon the score.
Ron Whitaker
GMS
> I never investigated Dorati's Mahler 5th, and had completely forgotten about
> it. Does anybody have any impressions?
>
> peter
The one and only time I ever got to play for Dorati was in Cleveland
around 1983. He conducted the Mahler 5 and my impression of his
interpretation at those concerts still remains strong. He made real
sense out of the piece for me.
Gary Stucka
MELMOTH
06/08/2010, dans nos oreilles grandes ouvertes mais un peu sales tout
les doux mélismes suivants :
> Monteux conducted Mahler 1 during his tenure in Boston in the early
> 20's. The score he used in still in the Boston Symphony library, and
> shows the many cuts (several of which are rather brutal) he inflicted
> upon the score.
I did not know that !...
But Monteux DID NOT like Mahler nor Bruckner !...
Bob Harper
thread, only to find an answer as I was surfing this evening. It's in here:
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2010/03/mahler-cycle-and-uncomfortable-silence.html
Excerpt:
> When there is no initial show of hands at the question & answer time,
> Küppers seems eager to wrap it up. He is preempted by three hands
> that hastily shoot up. The questions are for Thielemann and include:
> “What’s your relationship with Mahler”? “Why do you ask that?” CT
> shoots back, moodily. “Uh, oh… professional curiosity?” stumbles the
> journalist half cowed, half defiant. “Well, I have a troubled
> relationship with Mahler’s music. But then you knew that, which is
> why you asked, no?” Touché. But what follows changes the mood in the
> room completely. “Mahler’s music lends itself most to those
> conductors” Thielemann reflects, “who know how to hold back, who are
> good at understatement. That doesn’t exactly accommodate my
> conducting style; I’ve not been terribly successful at that yet. The
> music of Mahler is already so full of effects, if you are tempted to
> add anything, you only make it worse. I admire those conductors who
> achieve that certain noblesse—which is what I desire to achieve,
> eventually. Not always to enhance something. I’m currently trying to
> wean myself off that in Strauss, actually…” Thielemann thus continues
> a solid three minutes on his fallibility as a conductor in Mahler,
> about trying to break habits and improving—a touching, beautifully
> honest moment.
Interesting response. Applies to Kubelik, I would think, but to
Bernstein? But maybe he's the exception, as I suppose one could
substitute Karajan, or Haitink, or Chailly for Kubelik.
Bob Harper
Bob Harper
Even so, he's doing the 8th, though the post above seems to indicate, in
the paragraph preceding the one quoted, that he'd rather not:
Freitag, 15. Oktober 2010, 20:00 Uhr*
Sonntag, 17. Oktober 2010, 19:00 Uhr* Karten bestellen
Gustav Mahler
Symphonie Nr. 8 Es-Dur "Symphonie der Tausend"
Christian Thielemann, Dirigent
Adrianne Pieczonka, Sopran
Ricarda Merbeth, Sopran
Sibylla Rubens, Sopran
Lioba Braun, Mezzosopran
Birgit Remmert, Mezzosopran
Burkhard Fritz, Tenor
Roman Trekel, Bariton
Albert Dohmen, Bass
Philharmonischer Chor München, Einstudierung: Andreas Herrmann
Singverein der Gesellschaft der Musikfreunde in Wien, Einstudierung:
Johannes Prinz
Tölzer Knabenchor, Einstudierung: Gerhard Schmidt-Gaden und Ralf Ludewig
I'd love to be there.
Bob Harper
RiRiIII
> On Aug 5, 11:22 am, Paul Goldstein <pgold...@newsguy.com> wrote:
>
> > In article <pc762zp87n0....@panix5.panix.com>, Lewis Perin says...
>
> > >Fascinating question, and you bring up the seemingly inevitable linkage
> > >between Mahler and Bruckner. This makes me wonder about major
> > >conductors who've espoused Mahler and avoided Bruckner. Boulez has come
> > >around to at least some of Bruckner's symphonies. Are there others
> > >who've completely shunned Bruckner?
>
> Willem Mengelberg was a fanatical champion of Mahler's music and
> conducted it constantly, but based upon what I've read his interest in
> Bruckner was limited. I've read that he conducted Bruckner's
> symphonies once in a while (I believe he did #9 with the New York
> Philharmonic), but that when he had Eduard van Beinum (who loved
> Bruckner's music) hired as second conductor of the Concertgebouw
> Orchestra in 1931, Mengelberg essentially left Bruckner to him.
>
> > Mitropoulos. Bernstein did very little Bruckner, the 6th in concert in New
> > York, the 9th in the studio twice; I don't know of any others.
>
> the end of his life, Scherchen was conducting Bruckner's Symphony #2.
> He did it in Toronto, I believe, and was scheduled to conduct it with
> the Chicago Symphony (his CSO debut). I couldn't wait to hear him in
> person. Then, sigh, he died. There might be a recording of him doing
> it in North America; Bruckner experts here will know. I seem to recall
> that he made cuts in the score. But he certainly never recorded any
> Bruckner commercially.
>
> Don Tait
Exactly. Mitropoulos never touched Bruckner (perhaps a 7th IIRW once)
and in his correpondence (partly published in english in the early
70s) mentions in disdain something like "musicians of mentalite (in
french) Bruckner", whatever this meant.
A great discussion this one!
Alex
wanwan
> On Thu, 5 Aug 2010 16:27:21 +1000, jrsnfld wrote
> (in article
> <dbacd241-edfd-48a0-8d5f-6a6bb4245...@k19g2000yqc.googlegroups.com>):
>
>
>
> > On Aug 5, 1:29 am, Bob Harper <bob.har...@comcast.net> wrote:
> >> On 8/4/10 7:31 PM, Bob Harper wrote:
>
> >>> I think everyone here will remember the story reported by Robert Charles
> >>> Marsh to the effect that Bruno Walter once asked Toscanini to perform a
> >>> Mahler symphony, only to be greeted with the retort, "Mahler's music is
> >>> only fit to be used as toilet paper!"
>
> >>> Mahler's music (at least I wouldn't; YMMV, but I doubt it). But of the
> >>> conductors in the German-Austrian tradition, a number of the real greats
> >>> didn't do any (or, in one case, very little) Mahler. AFAIK Karl Böhm
> >>> didn't do any Mahler, and while Eugen Jochum made a fine recording of
> >>> DLvdE, I know of no other Mahler by him (at least recorded). But the
> >>> cases that really interest me are two of our finest Bruckner conductors
> >>> (not slighting Böhm or Jochum, to be sure): Celibidache and Gunter Wand.
> >>> I remember reading somewhere--perhaps in a liner note--that Wand refused
> >>> to conduct Mahler's music, but with no explanation as to why; with
> >>> respect to Celibidache, I know he didn't, but have never read why he
> >>> didn't.
>
> >>> Any insights?
>
>
> >> Thanks for all the responses. I thought of someone else, not in the
> >> Austro-German tradition, but--for a reason I hope makes sense--might
> >> well have been expected to conduct Mahler. I refer to Yevgeny Mravinsky.
> >> Given how many of Shostakovich's symphonies he premiered and conducted,
> >> and given the influence of Mahler on Shostakovich, it's a bit surprising
> >> he didn't, AFAIK, perform any Mahler. Bruckner, yes (at least the 8th
> >> and 9th), but no Mahler. Curious.
>
> >> Bob Harper
>
> > Mravinsky's discography suggests a rather restricted repertoire, but,
> > like Furtwangler, he might have done more pieces when he was younger.
> > (BTW, he also did Bruckner 7, which is found on disc these days).
> > Celibidache is another who did practically no Mahler (he did conduct
> > some of the songs) that I know of.
>
> > Keilberth did very little, as far as I can tell. There's a famous
> > DLvDE, and apparently now one can hear a recording of him doing one
> > movement of the 1st symphony, as well. Kempe was a name I never
> > associated with Mahler, but of course now one can buy his 1 and 2 and
> > DLvDE.
>
> > That leaves Abendroth and Konwitschny as two of the biggest names in
> > the Germanic tradition who, like Wand, seem totally clean of any
> > Mahler.
>
>
> I've taken a bit of an interest in the life of Carlos Kleiber, and as far as
> I can tell, he never performed Mahler. The same possibly goes for his father,
> Erich Kleiber, notwithstanding the fact that it was apparently Mahler who
> inspired him to become a conductor. Also, I don't recall Sir Thomas Beecham
> or Charles Dutoit being associated with Mahler.
>
> --
> Cheers!
>
> Terry
There is a CK Das lied from around 1967 with the VSO. Dutoit hasn't
recorded any Mahler, but he has performed a lot in concert.
---------
Eric
Walther von Stolzing
Kathleen Ferrier in 1949, I think).
Konwitschny conducted Mahler's 5 in 1960 and the 4th in 1953.
Paul van Kempen recorded the 4th for Telefunken. Knappertsbusch
broadcast the Kindertotenlieder.
Alan
LarryLap
> RiRiIII <alex_ri...@hotmail.com> appears to have caused the following
> letters to be typed innews:8e294ddc-7c9b-46dc...@f6g2000yqa.googlegroups.com:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 5 Aug, 05:31, Bob Harper <bob.har...@comcast.net> wrote:
> >> I think everyone here will remember the story reported by Robert
> >> Charles Marsh to the effect that Bruno Walter once asked Toscanini to
> >> perform a Mahler symphony, only to be greeted with the retort,
> >> "Mahler's music is only fit to be used as toilet paper!"
>
> >> Well, that was Toscanini, who one would not expect to be sympathetic to
> >> Mahler's music (at least I wouldn't; YMMV, but I doubt it). But of the
> >> conductors in the German-Austrian tradition, a number of the real greats
> >> didn't do any (or, in one case, very little) Mahler. AFAIK Karl Böhm
> >> didn't do any Mahler, and while Eugen Jochum made a fine recording of
> >> DLvdE, I know of no other Mahler by him (at least recorded). But the
> >> cases that really interest me are two of our finest Bruckner conductors
> >> (not slighting Böhm or Jochum, to be sure): Celibidache and Gunter Wand.
> >> I remember reading somewhere--perhaps in a liner note--that Wand refused
> >> to conduct Mahler's music, but with no explanation as to why; with
> >> respect to Celibidache, I know he didn't, but have never read why he
> >> didn't.
>
> >> Any insights?
>
> >> Bob Harper
>
>
> > FWIW, Harnoncourt never conducts Mahler...
>
> > Regarding Toscanini, I am pretty sure I read somewhere that he was in
> > La Scala after the war, and listened to a relearsal of DLVDE and was
> > very positevely astonished.
>
> > Alex
>
> Shortly before Toscanini died, a congratulatory telegraph went out over his
> name to Bruno Walter, with compliments on the latter's Mahler performances.
> You will note that I suggest that I question its authorship.
>
> --
> Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
> Read about "Proty" here:http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
> To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
>
> - Show quoted text -
There is a performance of the Third Symphony by Carl Schuricht on
Archiphon. According to the article on Schuricht in Wikipedia,
Schuricht, whose upbringing might lead one to expect a conductor with
limited or provincial taste, actually went so far as to organize a
festival of Mahler's music in Wiesbaden, when he was music director
there.
Peter Greenstein
peter
"GMS" <slidem...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:698eaa03-cba4-427a...@k19g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...
M forever
The database of BP concerts 1882-1942 I have says that Nikisch
conducted the 5th in 1905, and a program with Kindertotenlieder and
the 2nd in October 1911, a few months after Mahler's death.
However, I am not sure if the database is completely reliable or if it
there aren't any gaps. For instance, it does not list Karajan's debut
in 1938 and there are gaps in months in the middle of the season where
it only lists one program. That looks a little suspicious. Maybe it
only lists regular subscription concert
For the total of Mahler performances by Nikisch and Furtwängler, at
least according to my database, allow me to quote myself, from an
earlier post in this thread. There is also a correction included. I
said earlier that Nikisch conducted the 3rd, but that was an error:
Furtwängler conducted LefG, #3, #1, #4, and several unspecified
Lieder.
Nikisch conducted: #5, Kindertotenl., #2, #4, DLvdE, LefG, #1, even #7
which is still comparatively
rarely played, and several Lieder.
Mahler himself conducted the Berliner Philharmoniker in #2 and #3.
gns
> I think everyone here will remember the story reported by Robert Charles
> Marsh to the effect that Bruno Walter once asked Toscanini to perform a
> Mahler symphony, only to be greeted with the retort, "Mahler's music is
> only fit to be used as toilet paper!"
>
> Well, that was Toscanini, who one would not expect to be sympathetic to
> Mahler's music (at least I wouldn't; YMMV, but I doubt it). But of the
> conductors in the German-Austrian tradition, a number of the real greats
> didn't do any (or, in one case, very little) Mahler. AFAIK Karl Böhm
> didn't do any Mahler, and while Eugen Jochum made a fine recording of
> DLvdE, I know of no other Mahler by him (at least recorded). But the
> cases that really interest me are two of our finest Bruckner conductors
> (not slighting Böhm or Jochum, to be sure): Celibidache and Gunter Wand.
> I remember reading somewhere--perhaps in a liner note--that Wand refused
> to conduct Mahler's music, but with no explanation as to why; with
> respect to Celibidache, I know he didn't, but have never read why he didn't.
>
> Any insights?
>
> Bob Harper
No, but Furtwangler did very little Mahler and purportedly didn't much
care for his music, despite the fine LFG recording with F-D. And
Beecham conducted virtually none of his music, perhaps never. It seems
that conductos who excel with Bruckner don't care much about Mahler
and, as with Leinnie, vice-versa. No idea what the significance of
that is, but it seems to be true. Walter is an exception but he was
very picky about what he would conduct of both composers. The
completist disease hadn't yet spread.
mark
There seem to be many, many conductors from the early to mid 20th
century who didn't care much for Mahler's music. Toscanini,
Furtwangler and many others cited in this thread. There's also men
like Szell, who were very selective in the Mahler that they felt was
worth performing.
Yet many of these same men were great Brucknerians. I would imagine
that's because they saw Bruckner's use of form to be continuing in the
long line of classical symphonists, while Mahler's music comes off as
being more free form. In addition, it's been my experience in the
concert hall that Bruckner's music just "sounds" better than Mahler's.
By that, I mean that his orchestrations seem to work to take full
advantage of the harmony in the music and the overtone series in the
instruments. A conductor's instrument is, after all, the orchestra,
and playing music that tends to make that instrument sound good is
part of the package.
M forever
Neither Bruckner nor Mahler "sound better" than the other. They just
sound very different.
Mahler uses the orchestra in a more unusual, one could say more
"innovative" or "imaginary" way than Bruckner, but I don't mean to
imply that Bruckner is "unimaginative" either. He is just generally
more "by the book" which is typical for his character. But his
orchestration works very well for his music and sounds great.
Mahler uses color and color combinations very effectively for
expressive purposes. He uses a lot of "sound effects" which Bruckner
hardly ever does. Bruckner's orchestration is, if one wants to put it
that way, more "wholesome". Bruckner rarely writes for instruments
outside their "comfortable" range. He rarely uses extreme registers to
convey extreme emotions. He sometimes even avoids using the outer
range of an instrument's register even though it does not make strict
musical sense. For instance, in the first movement of the 7th, bar 262
(13 after N), the first horn plays e" - e" - c"- a'- e'- a instead of
e" - a" - c"- a'- e'- a which would make more musical sense as this is
the inversion of the main theme and at 250, the horn plays that
inverted motif just like that, only a step lower. But Bruckner hardly
ever writes for the horn above g", almost as if that wasn't "allowed".
Some conductors actually "correct" that. I remember Solti did in his
CSO recording.
"Sound effects" for expressive purposes hardly ever occur in
Bruckner's music. There are very few string soli in his symphonies,
and I think he only uses stopped horns in the 9th symphony (in the
development).
In Mahler's music, color is an added layer of emotional expression. Or
one could say, it expresses a different kind of range and emotions.
(Sinopoli was one of the conductors who understood that very well. He
was both a great Bruckner and Mahler conductor, BTW.)
But Mahler's orchestration sounds great, too, it is very finetuned and
nuanced but he also makes use of the full orchestra to great effect.
Actually, from a superficial point of view which does not take into
account how well the orchestration fits the musical substance of
either composer, Mahler's orchestra sounds "flashier", more
"extrovert" and "colorful" and more "impressive" for its own sake than
Bruckner's, so from the condcutor's point of view of "playing music
that makes the instrument (the orchestra) sound good", Mahler would
actually be the first choice. Which is probably why so many "young
hot" conductors see themselves as "Mahler specialists". It is maybe a
more flashy soundtrack for their posing.
M forever
Don't fall in love with that "the completist disease hadn't yet
spread" idea too much. If you look at old concert programs (say, from
the first decades of the 20th century), you will find that the typical
conductor actually conducted much more, and a much bigger variety of
pieces than most conductors do today. They didn't travel as much and
often were "in residence" at their actual job most of the time. Look
at, for instance, Mahler's programs in New York. He conducted nearly
all the concerts himself, and he conducted a *vast* repertoire,
including a lot of music from composers we have forgotten now. Same
about Nikisch at the same time in Berlin. Furtwängler also still
conducted the majority of BP concerts in the 20s and 30s, with
occasional guest conductors who often stayed for series of concerts
rather than one or two quick programs. And Furtwängler also conducted
a vast repertoire from all over the spectrum.
All that changed with the advent of long distance plane travel in the
50s, of course, but the theory you have there that conductors in the
past were much less "completist" than modern ones is actually
basically wrong. If anything, it is the other way around. It's just
that in earlier times, they recorded far less. So we have a very
distorted idea of the repertoire conductors actually had. Now anyone
can record anything anywhere.
CharlesSmith
Thanks for this - interesting observations. But there's something
about these "Bruckner and Mahler are completely different" arguments
that reminds me of my teenage self explaining to the girls in the
small town where we lived that I was nothing like my big brother. They
were excellent arguments, but in the end anyone could tell we were
brothers.
B & M are the descendents of Beethoven, Schubert, Weber and Wagner -
all of whom are there lurking in their music. And behind them both is
the ghost of JSB. Perhaps it's more difficult to pinpoint the
similarities? How about the hunting fanfares, the driven peasant
dances, the fondness for tremolo strings, or those Bach-like chorales
and arias (with wind solo obligato)? And can people really listen to
the opening of Bruckner 9 and then Mahler 2 and not hear the
connection?
Charles
Sol L. Siegel
news:cde3f7ee-e5a2-48d8...@f6g2000yqa.googlegroups.com:
> And can people really listen to
> the opening of Bruckner 9 and then Mahler 2 and not hear the
> connection?
Mahler 2 came first - and it's not as likely that Bruckner would have
been familiar with other new music, even that of a former acolyte, as
Mahler would have been with his.
Last fall, a lecturer before a Philly Orchestra performance of the
Bruckner 9th made one of the more asinine statements I've heard from a
supposed musical professional - that by dying with the symphony
unfinished, Bruckner became an "accidental genius", the closing Adagio
making way for closing slow movements of Mahler's last works. He had
overlooked Tchaikovsky's "Pathetique" Symphony and Mahler's 3rd, both
composed while Bruckner was working on the 9th. I would think there was
a good chance that Mahler, a working conductor with an interest in
contemporary music, would have known of the Tchaikovsky by the time he
composed the slow finale of the 3rd in 1895.
- Sol L. Siegel, Philadelphia, PA USA