Des Knaben Wunderhorn recommendation?
George Chia-Chen Yeh
Hi all:
I recently listened to Haitink's 1977 Philips recording of Mahler's _Des
Knaben Wunderhorn_ (on LP, no less), and I loved it. However, it's the
only version I've heard, so I have nothing to judge it by. I've seen it
issued on CD in one of Philips "two-fer" (sic?) sets, and I'm wondering
whether to splurge.
I've also seen the EMI issue of Szell's recording about, so I'm also
curious in that regard.
I'd welcome sage advice in this regard. Thanks,
George Yeh
Department of Internal Medicine
Washington University School of Medicine
St. Louis, MO
e-mail: gcc...@artsci.wustl.edu or y...@wuchem.wustl.edu
homepage: http://ascc.artsci.wustl.edu/~gccyeh
"'Habit devours objects, clothes, furniture, one's wife, and the fear of
war....Art exists to help us recover the sensation of life.' Victor
Shklovsky."
as quoted in _Small World_, David Lodge
william d. kasimer
David wrote:
> The most compelling recording of Des Knaben Wunderhorn by far is on
> Vanguard with Felix Prohaska conducting. Maureen Forrester and Heinz
> Rehfuss (sp.?) are his singers.
Finally, David and I find something upon which we agree :-). This was
the first recording of the work I ever heard, and I haven't heard
anything better since.
Bill
--
William D. Kasimer
wk...@mindspring.com
wk...@juno.com
David
If Haitink is too sober, Szell is too prissy. This is not the most
characterful Szell performance, and both of his very celebrated singers
are way too precious and mannered for this music, which should be sung
more directly and "artlessly."
The most compelling recording of Des Knaben Wunderhorn by far is on
Vanguard with Felix Prohaska conducting. Maureen Forrester and Heinz
Rehfuss (sp.?) are his singers. He is a bit rough around the edges at
one or two points, but very spirited and lively. Maureen Forrester is
the ideal Mahler singer. With her rich warm fat contralto sound, she
sounds like Mother Earth herself, and she is incredibly sensitive,
expressive, and moving. Prohaska keeps everything moving in the most
convincing way. Each song is filled with inner life. The latest
remastering is superb.
-David Gable
Simon Roberts
David (dga...@midway.uchicago.edu) wrote:
: If Haitink is too sober, Szell is too prissy. This is not the most
I completely agree (except that I probably dislike Schwarzkopf's and F-D's
histrionics, yelps, yowls, snarls, twitterings and god knows what else
more than you do; what a horror that recording is!).
Simon
Torgny Gustafsson
George Chia-Chen Yeh, gcc...@artsci.wustl.edu writes:
>I recently listened to Haitink's 1977 Philips recording of Mahler's _Des
>Knaben Wunderhorn_ (on LP, no less), and I loved it. However, it's the
>only version I've heard, so I have nothing to judge it by. I've seen it
>issued on CD in one of Philips "two-fer" (sic?) sets, and I'm wondering
>whether to splurge.
>
>I've also seen the EMI issue of Szell's recording about, so I'm also
>curious in that regard.
>
>I'd welcome sage advice in this regard. Thanks,
>
Sage advice will come from elsewhere, I am sure, but this is what I think:
In spite of what many say, I find the Szell/Fischer-Dieskau/Schwarzkopf
recording just wonderful. I have lived with this recording ever since it
first was issued, and I still find it marvelous: great conducting, fine
sound, expressive soloists, but others find the soloists mannered. Other
wonderful recordings: Prohaska on Vanguard and the inexpensive
Baker/Evans/Morris.
I do not particularly care for the Bernstein (Sony) recording (I have not
heard his later DG version) or for the Tennstedt one (Popp is wonderful,
but Weikl - talk about mannered!!). F-D has made at least two further
recordings of this music, neither of which I would rate at the top (with
Barenboim he is in much worse voice than with Szell, the version with
Sawallisch on Orfeo is with piano accompaniment, which is interesting,
but not "the real thing").
I think you can do better than the Haitink Philips Duo. The Wunderhorn
lieder is the best part of that compilation IMHO - it also contains a to
me disappointing Das Lied von der Erde with Baker, King and Haitink and
other Mahler song cycles with Prey - I rarely go back and listen to this
set. One performance that is well liked by many is the Mackerras one on
Virgin - I find it fine, but not one of my top three choices. I have not
heard the recent Inbal performance on Denon and I am looking forward to
the Abbado recording with von Otter being released.
Several of the songs in this cycle are today usually performed in duet
form. For purists, this is a no-no, as Mahler never explicitly authorized
this. I find the duets very appealing, but as I grew up with the Szell
performance, this is perhaps not particularly surprising. The Prohaska
performance is, of my top choices, in the supposedly original form.
TG
Falparsi
David wrote:
>
> If Haitink is too sober, Szell is too prissy. This is not the most
> characterful Szell performance, and both of his very celebrated singers
> are way too precious and mannered for this music, which should be sung
> more directly and "artlessly."
>
> The most compelling recording of Des Knaben Wunderhorn by far is on
> Vanguard with Felix Prohaska conducting. Maureen Forrester and Heinz
> Rehfuss (sp.?) are his singers. He is a bit rough around the edges at
> one or two points, but very spirited and lively. Maureen Forrester is
> the ideal Mahler singer. With her rich warm fat contralto sound, she
> sounds like Mother Earth herself, and she is incredibly sensitive,
> expressive, and moving. Prohaska keeps everything moving in the most
> convincing way. Each song is filled with inner life. The latest
> remastering is superb.
>
Does anyone have an opinion on Bernstein's version with Lucia Popp,
Andreas Schmidt and the Amsterdam Concertgebouw? MHS is featuring
it this month as an "exclusive." I had never heard of it before.
Jim Dunphy
David
If you dislike Bernstein's Sony Wunderhorn songs, you'll hate DGG! It's
a major disappointment. Very self-indulgent and completely lacking in
animation.
-david gable
David
Is that not the recording that used to be on DGG? Avoid it like the
plague. I am a huge fan of particularly Bernstein's earlier conducting,
but that self-indulgent Concertgebouw set of Wunderhorn songs is
Tony Duggan
George Chia-Chen Yeh wrote:
> I recently listened to Haitink's 1977 Philips recording of Mahler's _Des
> Knaben Wunderhorn_ (on LP, no less), and I loved it. However, it's the
> only version I've heard, so I have nothing to judge it by. I've seen it
> issued on CD in one of Philips "two-fer" (sic?) sets, and I'm wondering
> whether to splurge.
As has been said elsewhere in this thread, look for the Prohaska
recording on Vanguard with Forrester and Rehfuss. It is superb
in every way and, unlike all the others, presents the songs as
Mahler wrote them: one singer per song, not with some of
them tarted up as "duets" for which there is no authority in
the scores.
--
Tony Duggan (Staffordshire, UK)
scri...@dial.pipex.com
Johannes Roehl
On Mon, 20 Apr 1998, Tony Duggan wrote:
> > I recently listened to Haitink's 1977 Philips recording of Mahler's _Des
> > Knaben Wunderhorn_ (on LP, no less), and I loved it. However, it's the
> > only version I've heard, so I have nothing to judge it by. I've seen it
> > issued on CD in one of Philips "two-fer" (sic?) sets, and I'm wondering
> > whether to splurge.
>
> As has been said elsewhere in this thread, look for the Prohaska
> recording on Vanguard with Forrester and Rehfuss. It is superb
> in every way and, unlike all the others, presents the songs as
> Mahler wrote them: one singer per song, not with some of
> them tarted up as "duets" for which there is no authority in
> the scores.
While I don't know the recording you mentioned (I am afraid it's maybe not
available here) I think the duet version is quite cool in some of the
songs (as done on the baker/evans/morris) and as Mahler had no problems
tempering with Bach and Schumann, we should not be to narrow-minded here.
Does anyone kno if there is a duet version of "Wo die schoenen Trompeten
blasen" It would make sense as far as the text goes, but probably destroy
the haunting beauty of this wonderful song.
Johannes
--
Johannes Roehl "They say that genius is an
Physik infinite capacity for taking pains."
Uni Giessen
johanne...@physik.uni-giessen.de -Sherlock Holmes
Constantin Marcou
Johannes Roehl wrote:
> On Mon, 20 Apr 1998, Tony Duggan wrote:
>
> > >
> > As has been said elsewhere in this thread, look for the Prohaska
> > recording on Vanguard with Forrester and Rehfuss. It is superb
> > in every way and, unlike all the others, presents the songs as
> > Mahler wrote them: one singer per song, not with some of
> > them tarted up as "duets" for which there is no authority in
> > the scores.
>
> While I don't know the recording you mentioned (I am afraid it's maybe not
> available here) I think the duet version is quite cool in some of the
> songs (as done on the baker/evans/morris) and as Mahler had no problems
> tempering with Bach and Schumann, we should not be to narrow-minded here.
Well, I'm not a Mahler scholar, but I think he was a bit of a hypocrite, wasn't
he? I mean, it was all right for him to rearrange Bach and Schubert et al.,
(not to mention practically rewriting Die Drei Pintos), but he iserted all those
precise instructions in his own compositions to prevent others from doing the
same to him, didn't he? I've never seen a score for Des Knaben Wunderhorn. Is
it as controlling as the scores for his symphonies?
(By the way, I will once again take the opportunity to plug Wyn Morris and say
that I recently exchanged a *very* boring recording of the songs for the one
with him and Dame Janet Baker et al. (even though it contains some inauthentic
duets) and have been very happy with it. But there is no duet version of "Wo
die schönen Trompeten blasen" on it. I am now, however, curious to hear this
vaunted Prohaska/Forrester recording as a result of this thread.)
--
Best regards,
Con
*****************************************************************
"Mozart is too easy for beginners and too difficult for artists."
- Artur Schnabel
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Please remove * from address to reply.
Edward A. Cowan
There was an earlier recording of "Des Knaben Wunderhorn" on Vanguard VRS
412/413 (NOTE: *two* LPs!), in monophonic sound, also cond. Felix Prohaska,
with mezzo-soprano Lorna Sydney and baritone Alfred Poell. I believe this was
later reissued on one LP, but, apparently, with one song missing. I have never
seen or heard the later issue, and I don't know whether this has reappeared on
CD. I guess this one falls into the category of musical archaeology... <g> --E.A.C.
Deryk Barker
Constantin Marcou (conm...@earthlink.net) wrote:
:
:
:
: > On Mon, 20 Apr 1998, Tony Duggan wrote:
: >
: > > >
: > > As has been said elsewhere in this thread, look for the Prohaska
: > > recording on Vanguard with Forrester and Rehfuss. It is superb
: > > in every way and, unlike all the others, presents the songs as
: > > Mahler wrote them: one singer per song, not with some of
: > > them tarted up as "duets" for which there is no authority in
: > > the scores.
: >
: > While I don't know the recording you mentioned (I am afraid it's maybe not
: > available here) I think the duet version is quite cool in some of the
: > songs (as done on the baker/evans/morris) and as Mahler had no problems
: > tempering with Bach and Schumann, we should not be to narrow-minded here.
:
: Well, I'm not a Mahler scholar, but I think he was a bit of a hypocrite, wasn't
: he? I mean, it was all right for him to rearrange Bach and Schubert et al.,
: (not to mention practically rewriting Die Drei Pintos), but he iserted all those
: precise instructions in his own compositions to prevent others from doing the
: same to him, didn't he? I've never seen a score for Des Knaben Wunderhorn. Is
: it as controlling as the scores for his symphonies?
You're right - you're not a Mahler scholar. While his details in the
score are indeed very detailed, he also stated on more than one
occasion that the conductor was at liberty to make whatever changes
were necessitated by the acoustic space, etc.
Good example: the a capella entry in the Resurrection. He found in
practise that many choirs simply cannot (or perhaps could not) stay in
tune throughout and so it is on record that he supported them with
various wind instruments.
Also, for his Paris (I think) farewell, he again performed the
Resurrection, but with 4 soloists instead of 2. The theory (I'm not
aware of any eyewitnes accounts) is that they doubled the solo parts.
No, Mahler was not a hypocrite.
--
|Deryk Barker, Computer Science Dept. | Music does not have to be understood|
|Camosun College, Victoria, BC, Canada| It has to be listened to. |
|email: dba...@camosun.bc.ca | |
|phone: +1 250 370 4452 | Hermann Scherchen. |
Mike Painter
In article <6hqreb$dlj$1...@news.islandnet.com>, dba...@camosun.bc.nospam.ca
(Deryk Barker) wrote:
> Constantin Marcou (conm...@earthlink.net) wrote:
> :
> :
> : Well, I'm not a Mahler scholar, but I think he was a bit of a
hypocrite, wasn't
> : he? I mean, it was all right for him to rearrange Bach and Schubert et al.,
> : (not to mention practically rewriting Die Drei Pintos), but he iserted
all those
> : precise instructions in his own compositions to prevent others from
doing the
> : same to him, didn't he? I've never seen a score for Des Knaben
Wunderhorn. Is
> : it as controlling as the scores for his symphonies?
>
>
>
>
> You're right - you're not a Mahler scholar. [SNIP]
You could at least say that with a " :-) " or even a " ;-) " .
:-)
Mike
To respond via e-mail, remove * from address.
Michael Fine
While there are several superb Wunderhorns, I've just heard the first edit
of one that for me goes to the top of the list: Anne Sofie von Otter and
Thomas Quasthoff superbly accompanied by Claudio Abbado and the incomparable
Berlin Philharmonic ...
Edward A. Cowan wrote in message <35407F19...@anet-dfw.com>...
DMichaelE
One of the great recordings of this work is the EMI
Szell/Schwartzkopf/Ficsher-Dieskau account. A keeper!
Tony Duggan
DMichaelE wrote:
>
> One of the great recordings of this work is the EMI
> Szell/Schwartzkopf/Ficsher-Dieskau account. A keeper!
Apart from the "duets". A fault it shares with all but the Prohaska.
Celia A. Sgroi
scri...@dial.pipex.com wrote:
>>DMichaelE wrote:
>>
>> One of the great recordings of this work is the EMI
>> Szell/Schwartzkopf/Ficsher-Dieskau account. A keeper!
> Apart from the "duets". A fault it shares with all but the Prohaska.
Perhaps, but Fischer-Dieskau's performance of "Revelge" is remarkable.
Celia
Celia A. Sgroi
State University of New York
College at Oswego
sg...@oswego.edu
Simon Roberts
Celia A. Sgroi (sg...@news.oswego.edu) wrote:
: scri...@dial.pipex.com wrote:
: >>DMichaelE wrote:
: >>
: >> One of the great recordings of this work is the EMI
: >> Szell/Schwartzkopf/Ficsher-Dieskau account. A keeper!
: > Apart from the "duets". A fault it shares with all but the Prohaska.
: Perhaps, but Fischer-Dieskau's performance of "Revelge" is remarkable.
Excellent choice of adjective!
Simon (who will refrain from remarking further)
Paul Goldstein
Well, I won't - F-D's scenery chewing over "Revelge" is nauseating
(sorry, Celia).
Celia A. Sgroi
Paul Goldstein wrote:
> Well, I won't - F-D's scenery chewing over "Revelge" is nauseating
> (sorry, Celia).
No offense taken. Your choice of a good "Revelge" performance would
probably put me to sleep. That's what makes horse races, I guess.
Michael Fine
There are of course several fine recordings of Des Knaben Wunderhorn but
having heard the first edit of the new Abbado/Berlin recording with Thomas
Quastoff and Anne Sofie von Otter, I'd place it at the top of my list.
Michael Fine
Celia A. Sgroi wrote in message ...
Vladislav Panferov
Michael Fine wrote:
>
> There are of course several fine recordings of Des Knaben Wunderhorn but
> having heard the first edit of the new Abbado/Berlin recording with Thomas
> Quastoff and Anne Sofie von Otter, I'd place it at the top of my list.
> Michael Fine
Well, of course the recording to be issued by DGG is supposed to be the
best! May I wonder if there are some recordings by OTHER labels in your
list?
--
My e-mail address is vk...@math.chalmers.se