Re: Debussy's Jeux
David Wake
> For me " Jeux" is a light-year advance over "La Mer". In places it
> anticipates the night music of Bartok. And though not as unsettling as the
> 2nd mvt of Music for Strings, Percussion and Celeste, Jeux is, in places,
> scary. I have the Boulez/ Philharmonia recording of Jeux, and that is
> still a first-recommendation...Has anyone heard a better Jeux than the
> Boulex?
>
> Rich
Bernstein/New York is less well played and recorded as Boulez, but
everyone is having much more fun!
David
mypl...@yahoo.com
the best Nocturnes as well (PHI 400 023). Extremely atmospheric
performances and well recorded.
Curtis Croulet
--
Curtis Croulet
Temecula, California
33°27'59"N, 117°05'53"W
Andy Evans
was Boulez and the Cleveland on DG - even more refined and insightful
than the Philharmonia. The phrases seem to be spookily well constructed
and understood. I'd also cite as interesting and well worth listening
to: Maderna, Ansermet and Martinon (now in a Brilliant box). Dutoit is
well recorded but a touch bland.
Raymond Hall
news:D-CdnbZ-Gvk...@comcast.com...
> For me " Jeux" is a light-year advance over "La Mer". In places it
> anticipates the night music of Bartok. And though not as unsettling as
> the 2nd mvt of Music for Strings, Percussion and Celeste, Jeux is, in
> places, scary. I have the Boulez/ Philharmonia recording of Jeux, and
> that is still a first-recommendation...Has anyone heard a better Jeux than
> the Boulex?
Haitink is one version I have of Jeux on a Duo, in addition to one I have by
Baudo (a coupling to La Mer, on EMI Eminence).
Never liked the work. Never understood it. The one piece by Debussy I cannot
for the life of me really enjoy.
I'll give Baudo another try this weekend. Maybe Boulez is the version I
need. Maybe I don't need Jeux at all.
Ray H
Taree
Matthew B. Tepper
following letters to be typed in news:D-CdnbZ-Gvk...@comcast.com:
> For me " Jeux" is a light-year advance over "La Mer". In places it
> anticipates the night music of Bartok. And though not as unsettling as
> the 2nd mvt of Music for Strings, Percussion and Celeste, Jeux is, in
> places, scary. I have the Boulez/ Philharmonia recording of Jeux, and
> that is still a first-recommendation...Has anyone heard a better Jeux
> than the Boulex?
Try MTT in the LSO Centenary box.
Given that the ballet itself is about a tennis match (sort of), I wonder
why more of the Czech orchestras haven't taken it up. I mean, they really,
really, really understand tennis.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made. ~ FDR (attrib.)
Michael Schaffer
Richard Sauer wrote:
> For me " Jeux" is a light-year advance over "La Mer". In places it
> anticipates the night music of Bartok. And though not as unsettling as the
> 2nd mvt of Music for Strings, Percussion and Celeste, Jeux is, in places,
> scary. I have the Boulez/ Philharmonia recording of Jeux, and that is
> still a first-recommendation...Has anyone heard a better Jeux than the
> Boulex?
>
I don't know that recording, but how about Martinon/ONORTF?
David Wake
> Haitink/Concertgebouw on Philips, recorded in 1979, and coupled with
> the best Nocturnes as well (PHI 400 023). Extremely atmospheric
> performances and well recorded.
Wow: to me Haitink sounds utterly clueless in this music. If you
think his nocturnes are "the best", what others have you heard?
David
David Wake
I should also mention the premiere recording by De Sabata/Santa
Cecilia on Testament. He and Bernstein are the two conductors I have
heard who really seem to have a grasp of the score rather than just
playing the notes. If only either had had first-rate sound (and, in
the case of De Sabata, a first rate orchestra).
David
Michael Schaffer
I have often heard very good things about the La Mer performance by
Sabata/Santa Cecilia, too. How "bad" are the orchestra and sound on
that disc?
Curtis Croulet
works, the one that has always been something of an enigma to me is La mer.
It sounds to me as though Debussy at first wanted to write a symphony
(there's a clear introduction, 1st allegro theme, 2nd allegro theme,
development), but then he changed his mind. Jeux is aleatory,
non-repeating, and I can hear it that way without wondering if I'm missing a
hidden symphonic structure.
Raymond Hall
>
>> Given that the ballet itself is about a tennis match (sort of), I wonder
>> why more of the Czech orchestras haven't taken it up. I mean, they
>> really,
>> really, really understand tennis.
>>
>
>
> I've always thought of the program (tennis match) for Jeux as a joke....
> When I listen to Jeux I turn off all the lights in the room. An eerie
> experience. Isn't the late music of Debussy rather dark and pessimistic?
>
> Question for Ray: What is it about Jeux you don't like? (Not a challenge ,
> just curious)
It isn't so much a question of not liking it per se, (Debussy is all about
sonority), but having no clue whatsoever as to what is the music 'about'. La
Mer, Nocturnes, and many of the piano pieces are all impressions,
wonderfully portrayed, and even the etudes are magnificent examples of
'piano art', technique, and beautiful sonorities.
Some might counter that 'what are Haydn's symphonies' about then? They are,
of course, the most magnificent creations of form, mostly, and texture,
charm, pathos, and wit, created out of the very form itself.
Coming back to Debussy's Jeux, I am listening, but am in a total fog as to
what is the music essentially, even remotely, about. Of course, I have read
about the illusions to a tennis match, which escape this brain, but I am
certain that part of the problem is that many interpreters, as has been
pointed out already, get the orchestra to play the notes, but in essence,
haven't got a clue about the score either. With La Mer I smell the sea. With
Ravel's La Valse I see the forthcoming destruction of civilisation.
Baudo, btw, is rather brisker than Haitink in Jeux, but maybe I need a
version that relates the score better.
No better example of understanding a score, is Ancerl's Taras Bulba, heard
recently. The performance gloriously tells a story, as well as being
brilliantly executed. Whereas Mackerras merely plays the notes. Sad for
those who rely on Mackerras for this great score, and yet haven't heard
Ancerl. Chalk and cheese.
Ray H
Taree
ron...@usa.net
David Wake wrote:
>
> I should also mention the premiere recording by De Sabata/Santa
> Cecilia on Testament. He and Bernstein are the two conductors I have
> heard who really seem to have a grasp of the score rather than just
> playing the notes. If only either had had first-rate sound (and, in
> the case of De Sabata, a first rate orchestra).
>
> David
Absolutely agree about the De Sabata -- he really gets it. I know there
is at least one aircheck of Monteux -- does anyone have an opinion? For
my money no one does La Mer or the Nocturnes as well as Monteux, and I
would think his Jeux would certainly be worth hearing, especially as he
conducted the premiere.
People should stop trying to hear a tennis match in this work. It takes
place at a tennis match, but really concerns what happens when a ball
goes astray and the resulting amorous adventures ("Games") when the
player goes to retrieve the ball. I find it to be an endlessly
fascinating work. The orchestration is a work of real genius, with
incredible colors and textures throughout.
Ron Whitaker
David Wake
Given that the recording is from the late 40s and the orchestra is the
Santa Cecilia, better than you would have any right to expect. It's
definitely fine enough that you can hear all the details of De
Sabata's conception.
David
Royke
news:m3y7xy8...@andromeda.da-nu.com...
I fully agree with Haitink as top recommendation. Compared with lots of
others: Boulez (old and new), Dutoit, Davis, Monteux, Ansermet, Munch,
Celibidache (quickly sold, the man is idiotic in Debussy), Martinon. Spent
an evening on these, listening 'blind. Same conclusion as I reached for La
Mer, by the way.
alanwa...@aol.com
Matthew B. Tepper wrote:
> "Richard Sauer" <chon...@comcast.net> appears to have caused the
> following letters to be typed in news:D-CdnbZ-Gvk...@comcast.com:
>
> > For me " Jeux" is a light-year advance over "La Mer". In places it
> > anticipates the night music of Bartok. And though not as unsettling as
> > the 2nd mvt of Music for Strings, Percussion and Celeste, Jeux is, in
> > places, scary. I have the Boulez/ Philharmonia recording of Jeux, and
> > that is still a first-recommendation...Has anyone heard a better Jeux
> > than the Boulex?
>
> Try MTT in the LSO Centenary box.
>
> Given that the ballet itself is about a tennis match (sort of), I wonder
> why more of the Czech orchestras haven't taken it up. I mean, they really,
> really, really understand tennis.
>
the major sponsor last year (they've switched their money to ice
hockey).
This is what Debussy himself said of Jeux: "There is a park, a tennis
court; there is a chance meeting of two girls and a young man seeking a
lost ball; a nocturnal landscape, and a suggestion of something
sinister in the darkening shadows"
Nijinsky, whose idea this was, suggested both a tennis match and an
aircraft crashing - both ideas rejected by the composer in favour of
the above.
It's probably a hard piece for people to get because it is so
harmonically adventurous and because sometimes you get the "line" only
once but it's probably the most adventurous music he wrote, certainly
at the time. Comes pretty close to being atonal from time to time.
I've done the ballet quite a lot over the years. Smetacek also liked
it. I have not heard the recordings being discussed but there is what
I think a fine performance conducted by Manuel Rosenthal, an
interpreter of French music that I always find interesting and of Ravel
in particular.
Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins
Andy Evans
about
sonority), but having no clue whatsoever as to what is the music
'about'.>
The music is just a continuous flow of ideas, but it does make a big
difference how these ideas join up, and how each idea is enunciated. I
join with those who think Haitink is clueless, and I'd strongly suggest
Cleveland/Boulez. You may have to give this about five listens until
the music gets under your skin. It gets easier to understand when you
can easily recognise the bits of 'tunes' and anticipate where they are
going to come in the score. This gives you a better aural map, and
starts to make sense of the rest of the music. I've also found you need
to be in a certain mood to get the best out of the music. It's not
everyday music. I think you need to be emotionally receptive and ready
to send your critical faculties (form etc) on a short vacation. Late
evening can be a good time. Maybe dawn too.
Gerard
> "David Wake" <dw...@stanfordalumni.org> wrote in message
> news:m3y7xy8...@andromeda.da-nu.com...
> > mypl...@yahoo.com writes:
> >
> > > Haitink/Concertgebouw on Philips, recorded in 1979, and coupled
> > > with the best Nocturnes as well (PHI 400 023). Extremely
> > > atmospheric performances and well recorded.
> >
> > Wow: to me Haitink sounds utterly clueless in this music. If you
> > think his nocturnes are "the best", what others have you heard?
> >
> > David
>
> I fully agree with Haitink as top recommendation.
Me too.
> Compared with lots
> of others: Boulez (old and new), Dutoit, Davis, Monteux, Ansermet,
> Munch, Celibidache (quickly sold, the man is idiotic in Debussy),
> Martinon. Spent an evening on these, listening 'blind. Same
> conclusion as I reached for La Mer, by the way.
Not me. Compared to other recordings, Haitink's is a little bland. His
Nocturnes are so much finer.
Gerard
>
> Given that the ballet itself is about a tennis match (sort of), I
> wonder why more of the Czech orchestras haven't taken it up. I mean,
> they really, really, really understand tennis.
Nobody said that Debussy understood tennis.
Steven de Mena
"Gerard" <ghend...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4449f464$0$8303$dbd4...@news.wanadoo.nl...
I thought it was about a couple, or some people, searching for a lost tennis
ball in a garden, as opposed to an actual tennis game.
Steve
Gerard
>
> No better example of understanding a score, is Ancerl's Taras Bulba,
> heard recently. The performance gloriously tells a story, as well as
> being brilliantly executed. Whereas Mackerras merely plays the notes.
> Sad for those who rely on Mackerras for this great score, and yet
> haven't heard Ancerl. Chalk and cheese.
>
I've heard both (and two of Mackerras' recordings). It's the usual Mackerras
bashing from you.
Gerard
I understand that it's easy to translate "Jeux" to "Game" or something like
that. Specially if a tennis ball seems to be involved. It's more "Plays" or
"Playing".
Steven de Mena
Nijinsky's synopsis was as follows:
The scene is a garden at dusk; a tennis ball has been lost; a
young man and two girls are searching for it. The artificial light of the
large electric lamps shedding fantastic rays about them suggests the idea of
childish games: they play hide and seek, they try to catch one another,
they quarrel, they sulk without cause. The night is warm, the sky is bathed
in a pale light; they embrace. But the spell is broken by another tennis
ball thrown in mischievously by an unknown hand. Surprised and alarmed, the
young man and the girls disappear into the nocturnal depths of the garden.
Steve
Raymond Hall
news:MPG.1eb3a4fe3...@news.sf.sbcglobal.net...
> In article <mMKdnbdq7sc...@comcast.com>, st...@stevedemena.com
> says...
> notes from a performance by the SF Symphony not long ago -
>
> http://tinyurl.com/opf7r
Phenomenal notes. Many thanks. I think that with all the help given in this
thread, I am going to be well prepared for Jeux now.
Ray H
Taree
Andrew Rose
Is this the recording credited on the HMV labels to "Symphony Orchestra
of the Augusteo, Rome"? I assume it is (the same condutor/era). Just
having a quick listen to the 78s and the sound is lovely - certainly
HMV's take on ffrr, and perhaps one for the collection in due course,
with first rate sound naturally... ;-)
(The orchestra sounds pretty tight, too.)
Andrew
Andrew Rose
>
> Is this the recording credited on the HMV labels to "Symphony Orchestra
> of the Augusteo, Rome"? I assume it is (the same condutor/era). Just
> having a quick listen to the 78s and the sound is lovely - certainly
> HMV's take on ffrr, and perhaps one for the collection in due course,
> with first rate sound naturally... ;-)
>
In answer to my own question, the 1952 HMV catalogue lists "Accademia di
Santa Cecilia Orchestra (formerly dell' Augusteo)". Perhaps I'll slip
this one in as a May release - sounds excellent so hopefully a
straightforward restoration, and only four sides...
Andrew
Matthew B. Tepper
following letters to be typed in
'Splain to me the meaning of the word "Jeux," then. ;--)
Matthew B. Tepper
letters to be typed in news:e2deqa$mik$1...@news.tiscali.fr:
> David Wake wrote:
>> "Michael Schaffer" <ms1...@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> David Wake wrote:
>>>> "Andy Evans" <performan...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>> I should also mention the premiere recording by De Sabata/Santa
>>>> Cecilia on Testament. He and Bernstein are the two conductors I have
>>>> heard who really seem to have a grasp of the score rather than just
>>>> playing the notes. If only either had had first-rate sound (and, in
>>>> the case of De Sabata, a first rate orchestra).
>>>>
>>> I have often heard very good things about the La Mer performance by
>>> Sabata/Santa Cecilia, too. How "bad" are the orchestra and sound on
>>> that disc?
>>
>> Given that the recording is from the late 40s and the orchestra is the
>> Santa Cecilia, better than you would have any right to expect. It's
>> definitely fine enough that you can hear all the details of De
>> Sabata's conception.
>
> Is this the recording credited on the HMV labels to "Symphony Orchestra
> of the Augusteo, Rome"? I assume it is (the same condutor/era). Just
> having a quick listen to the 78s and the sound is lovely - certainly
> HMV's take on ffrr, and perhaps one for the collection in due course,
> with first rate sound naturally... ;-)
>
> (The orchestra sounds pretty tight, too.)
I have the Testament issue, SBT 1108, which credits "Orchestra Stabile
Accademica di Santa Cecilia, Rome."
Andrew Rose
compare to this clip, which I reckon is some of the best I've ever
managed from HMV 78s:
(a 36s clip from just before the first side change, saved as a Lame APX
MP3 file, size 856KB and this afternoon's work in progress...)
Josep Vilanova
On 22/4/06 09:29, in article
1145694586....@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com, "Andy Evans"
<performan...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I've also found you need
> to be in a certain mood to get the best out of the music. It's not
> everyday music. I think you need to be emotionally receptive and ready
> to send your critical faculties (form etc) on a short vacation. Late
> evening can be a good time. Maybe dawn too.
>
I also had problems in getting to like that piece. The thing that made it
work for me was watching it performed. It was with the Philarmonia and
Charles Dutoit. I realized the importance that all those big clusters of
sounds had in that piece, and also the importance of the way those sounds
are moving around the orchestra. It's difficult to get that same sonic
impact from a recording, even if you play it really loud. Following the
fragments of themes had less importance than the pure sound quality. Then,
after listening to the recording I got to identify the themes and the
fragments of themes, but the piece never had the same effect than in that
concert.
j
Matthew B. Tepper
I'll try to remember to check later; right now the Metropolitan Opera
broadcast is about to begin. I'm making a point of listening to every one
of these, in this, its last season that will ever matter.
It's a few minutes later. Well, I'd LIKE to be listening to the Met, but
once again KUSC has screwed up and dropped the signal.
And they want people to send them money?
Richar...@gmail.com
French orchestral timbres absolutely right.
Rattle's CBSO account is very fine, which will probably surprise some
posters here.
I also like de Sabata and both Boulez recordings. Haitink is a little
too careful in this score, he sets it all out painstakingly and it is
worth hearing but it's not a fluid performance.
Ed Presson
> > > > Haitink/Concertgebouw on Philips, recorded in 1979, and coupled
> > > > with the best Nocturnes as well (PHI 400 023). Extremely
> > > > atmospheric performances and well recorded.
> > >
> > > Wow: to me Haitink sounds utterly clueless in this music. If you
> > > think his nocturnes are "the best", what others have you heard?
>
> Me too.
>
> > Compared with lots
> > of others: Boulez (old and new), Dutoit, Davis, Monteux, Ansermet,
> > Munch, Celibidache (quickly sold, the man is idiotic in Debussy),
> > Martinon. Spent an evening on these, listening 'blind. Same
> > conclusion as I reached for La Mer, by the way.
>
> Not me. Compared to other recordings, Haitink's is a little bland. His
> Nocturnes are so much finer.
>
sensitive, beautifully played, and often atmospheric---but, nonetheless,
felt completely off-base. I re-listen to them every two or three years to
see if I respond differently. I find much to admire, but not much to love.
Regards,
Ed Presson
Vaneyes
Richard Sauer wrote:
>
> I have the Boulez/ Philharmonia recording of Jeux, and that is
> still a first-recommendation...Has anyone heard a better Jeux than the
Nope, that's all you need.
Regards
Andy Evans
If you don't expect symbolism and paradoxes (or preferably double
paradoxes) from the French you haven't been to France. It's even in the
bread they eat.
Andy Evans
> still a first-recommendation...Has anyone heard a better Jeux than the Boulez?
Nope, that's all you need. >
But don't you feel the Cleveland version is even finer?
Michael Schaffer
The Augusteo was a large concert venue in Rome. Mussolini had it razed
because they thought there were some more important archaeological
sites underneath it which he wanted to excavate for the glory of Rome,
but they didn't find much then...
The orchestra was then renamed or reformed and attached to the
Accademia di Santa Cecilia and became Orchestra dell'Accademia (later
"Nazionale") di Santa Cecilia and many decades later, they actually got
their own concert hall again in the Parco della Musica.
I don't understand what the "stabile" in that version of the name on
the de Sabata cover means - "regular"? Why this addition? Can someone
explain that?
david...@aol.com
Neither of my favorite recordings is a studio recording.
Boulez is a natural for this music: all of his own most ambitious
music from the late 50's and early 60's is directly descended from it.
Along with Berg's, it was Debussy's music that showed Boulez a path
beyond the cul de sac of total serialism. That being said, my favorite
Boulez performance is a live 1966 performance with the Orchestre de la
Societe des Concerts du Conservatoire. He gave a pretty good
performance of Jeux last year with the BBC SO that I've got on CD, but
I've only listened to it once and not with undivided attention. The
other live recording I like is Maderna's.
-david gable
david...@aol.com
"Of Debussy's orchestral works, the one that has always been something
of an enigma to me is La mer. It sounds to me as though Debussy at
first wanted to write a symphony (there's a clear introduction, 1st
allegro theme, 2nd allegro theme, development), but then he changed his
mind."
La mer was conceived as a kind of anti-symphony from the very
beginning, which is still a kind of symphony. I'm afraid that I find
it entirely convincing in every respect and infinitely more complex,
subtle, and interesting than such competition as Le sacre du printemps,
all in a more indirect and less obvious Gallic sort of way, of course.
While the symphonic model is still lurking somewhere in the background
behind La mer, I find its form entirely convicing. And without having
climbed out that far on a limb, he wouldn't have been able to cut the
limb off behind him and enter into the freefall of Jeux.
"Jeux is aleatory, non-repeating, and I can hear it that way without
wondering if I'm missing a hidden symphonic structure."
Oh, the symphonic structure is still there. But it's evolved so far
that it can define its own new unique form in unfolding, just as the
language of Haydn and Mozart defined "symphonic structure" for them in
the 18th century.
Your description of Jeux is very close to Boulez's.
-david gable
Michael Schaffer
I have both and I like them both in their different ways. Mackerras'
version is musically also very convincing, and I think he tells a
story, too. The sections are very well characterized and the third
movement I find actually a little more convincing in his reading than
in Ancerl's. *Both* are indeed brilliantly executed, and Mackerras
secures very edgy playing from the WP which isn't at all Viennese-style
sweetened.
I found his later live remake very convincing too, but again, in the
third movement, I think his earlier version is the best of all I have
heard.
As an example for a well played, but not musically very convincing
reading Gardiner with the NDR comes to mind, but not Mackerras.
So, is there any valid musical criticism in that statement or is it
just "Mackerras bashing" in
you-think-he-is-an-expert-in-that-repertoire-but-let-me-tell-you-that-only-retards-think-that
mode (parellel to Mr Hall's
let-me-tell-all-you-retards-how-Rachmaninoff-is-really-spelled mode) ?
Vaneyes
No, and when you hafta take a clearly inferior La Mer with it, I don't
know why anyone would want the "Grammy-winning" DG disc.
Regards
david...@aol.com
"I've always thought of the program (tennis match) for Jeux as a
joke.... "
Nijinsky proposed the ballet to Diaghilev and supplied the original
scenario. Boulez described Jeux as "Apres-midi d'un faune in tennis
clothes," and Debussy himself regarded the ballet's ostensible topic
with a degree of irony. In a letter to Stravinsky he tells Stravinsky
the title, "Games, which conveniently summarizes the 'horrors' that
pass among these three personages."
Tennis is obviously a metaphor for sexual relationships from seduction
to intercourse and Debussy's score is a meditation on that topic
belonging to a tradition that includes the Adagio from Berlioz's Romeo
et Juliette, Tristan, and the middle movement of Boulez's Visage
nuptial.
-david gable
Curtis Croulet
1st mvt. I'm OK with the rest.
--
Curtis Croulet
Temecula, California
33°27'59"N, 117°05'53"W
Brendan R. Wehrung
Andrew Rose
I know - that's why I asked for comparisons with the Testament release,
which came out in 1998, and isn't available as a download...
Michael Schaffer
What medium is that testament release taken from? Tapes? Discs?
Michael Schaffer
For me, La Mer is an enigma too. But I think that is the point - it is
such a mysterious and intriguing work. There is a lot of music that I
can somehow follow and that is understandable from a theoretical point
of view. How did Debussy come up with that music? Maybe that's why it's
one of the most fascinating pieces.
Andrew Rose
couple of years later.
Gerard
> Gerard wrote:
> > Raymond Hall wrote:
> > >
> > > No better example of understanding a score, is Ancerl's Taras
> > > Bulba, heard recently. The performance gloriously tells a story,
> > > as well as being brilliantly executed. Whereas Mackerras merely
> > > plays the notes. Sad for those who rely on Mackerras for this
> > > great score, and yet haven't heard Ancerl. Chalk and cheese.
> > >
> >
> > I've heard both (and two of Mackerras' recordings). It's the usual
> > Mackerras bashing from you.
>
> I have both and I like them both in their different ways. Mackerras'
> version is musically also very convincing, and I think he tells a
> story, too.
There are at least two versions by Mackerras (Decca/VPO and Supraphon/CPO). I
suppose you're referring to his Decca recording.
> The sections are very well characterized and the third
> movement I find actually a little more convincing in his reading than
> in Ancerl's. *Both* are indeed brilliantly executed, and Mackerras
> secures very edgy playing from the WP which isn't at all
> Viennese-style sweetened.
I see - it's the Decca recording.
> I found his later live remake very convincing too, but again, in the
> third movement, I think his earlier version is the best of all I have
> heard.
> As an example for a well played, but not musically very convincing
> reading Gardiner with the NDR comes to mind, but not Mackerras.
> So, is there any valid musical criticism in that statement or is it
> just "Mackerras bashing" in
>
you-think-he-is-an-expert-in-that-repertoire-but-let-me-tell-you-that-only-ret
ards-think-that
> mode (parellel to Mr Hall's
> let-me-tell-all-you-retards-how-Rachmaninoff-is-really-spelled mode) ?
It's more that I'm referring to Mr Hall's usual bashing about Mackerras. He
does so at the strangest places, even in threads about Debussy's Jeux;
anywhere he is reminded of Mackerras in some way.
So it's somewhat like a
you-retards-think-that-i-am-biased-and-that-i-think-that-an-australian-conduct
or-is-better-all-the-time-because-he-is-australian-in-some-way-and-we-have-no-
other-one-but-actually-i-don't-give-a-shit-about-the-guy-and-i-will-show-it-to
-you-morons-every-time-there-is-some-discussion-about-whatever-conductor-where
ever-in-the-world-n'est-ce-pas?
Nicolai P. Zwar
A recording of Debussy's "La Mer" was among the first LPs I bought...
(don't remember right now which recording it was). It was one of the
most fascinating pieces of music I ever heard as a teenager and I love
it to this day and never tire listening to it. Boulez' Cleveland
recording is among my favorites. (Like David Gable, I think Boulez is a
superb interpreter of this repertoire, but unlike he, I tend to prefer
his latter DG recordings.)
--
Nicolai Zwar
http://www.nicolaizwar.com
"The Internet is for lonely people. People should live."
(Charlton Heston)
Gerard
> Michael Schaffer wrote:
>
> There are at least two versions by Mackerras (Decca/VPO and
> Supraphon/CPO). I suppose you're referring to his Decca recording.
>
[..]
> > I found his later live remake very convincing too,
I did not see this the first time. Sorry, forget my question about the
versions.
Michael Schaffer
Thanks for explaining that. You are right, I have seen that in several,
often very unlikely places, and I had wondered about it for a while.
After all, Mackerras is admired as a superb interpreter of Czech music
in general and Janacek in particular, including in the CR. He has even
studied there and speaks the language, I think. And he has shown in a
lot of other reprtoire to be one of the most style conscious
conductors. Not just someone who has a lot of nice ideas about music,
but someone who analyzes style very consciously and merges it with good
musicianship. Informed, but not dogmatic. You guessed right, I like his
Mozart symphonies a lot. Actually, I don't think I have heard anything
from him that was really disappointing, except for the Brahms
symphonies with which I couldn't connect in his readings - but many
love them. At the same time, they were without doubt very interesting
from a performance style point of view. All that makes it very hard to
believe that Mackerras understood the style of Janacek music less than,
uh, Mr Hall. Also, there are many elements in his WP readings, the edgy
plasticity, the directness of the colors, the characterization of the
episodes which mirror stylistically what you hear from Czech
interpreters, ancerl included, without aping it. Plus they hadn't just
stumbled across the Sinfonietta as a colorful orchestral showpiece like
some people do who otherwise don't know much of Janacek's music, they
had actually recorded his major operas together.
Maybe it's also that since Mackerras is the only relevant contribution
Australia has made to the world of "classical" music, in "classical"
music circles in Australia (if those actually exist) he must be
something of a hero, so I guess it's cool for Mr Hall to tell people
"what, you think he is an important conductor? Let me tell you the
truth" or something like that. That is a very common strategy among
people who want to appear smarter than all the other "retards" who
can't even spell Rachmaninoff...
As you saw, I also have the set he recorded with the CzechP later. I
like both. And Ancerl. And Neumann. And Kosler. Although I like Kosler
less than the others. I also have Tars Bulba with Dohnanyi/Cleveland,
another interesting reading. Also Gardiner as I had already mentioned,
but that one struck me as less compelling. I just realized I also have
it with Masur, but haven't opened the CD yet. Why did I buy that?
Michael Schaffer
> (don't remember right now which recording it was).
Come on, we all know that it was Karajan, probably his 60s recording on
one of those budget LP series DG used to have, "Resonance", "Galleria",
or maybe even the one with the untalented paintings by Eliette von
Karajan on the cover (the one which had a print of the painting inside
the LP cover, as if it wasn't bad enough to have it just on the cover).
Don't be ashamed to admit it. It wasn't your fault. The gay philosophy
student who worked at the record shop told you "it is the best", so you
bought it, it's not your fault.
Actually, that's one of the best recordings of the piece, very
significant from a performance history point of view because it was
unusual in that it blended French and German performance styles
seamlessly into an interesting new style.
Gerard
> Gerard wrote:
> >
> > So it's somewhat like a
> >
you-retards-think-that-i-am-biased-and-that-i-think-that-an-australian-conduct
> >
or-is-better-all-the-time-because-he-is-australian-in-some-way-and-we-have-no-
> >
other-one-but-actually-i-don't-give-a-shit-about-the-guy-and-i-will-show-it-to
>
> -you-morons-every-time-there-is-some-discussion-about-whatever-conductor-whe
re
> > ever-in-the-world-n'est-ce-pas?
>
> Thanks for explaining that. You are right, I have seen that in
> several, often very unlikely places, and I had wondered about it for
> a while. After all, Mackerras is admired as a superb interpreter of
> Czech music in general and Janacek in particular, including in the
> CR. He has even studied there and speaks the language, I think. And
> he has shown in a lot of other reprtoire to be one of the most style
> conscious conductors. Not just someone who has a lot of nice ideas
> about music, but someone who analyzes style very consciously and
> merges it with good musicianship. Informed, but not dogmatic. You
> guessed right, I like his Mozart symphonies a lot.
Did I guess so?
I like them too, but many of them are not very nicely recorded, regrettably.
And other music, like Haydn, Schubert, Tchaikoffsky, other music by Mozart
too.
He recorded a Scheherazade I've never seen; I have some Sibelius, and some
Rachmaninoff - no top recommendations I think, but nothing to bash about. The
only disappointing recording by Mackerras I know is about, is something by
Stravinsky.
> Actually, I don't
> think I have heard anything from him that was really disappointing,
> except for the Brahms symphonies with which I couldn't connect in his
> readings - but many love them.
I loved them from the beginning. But not for long.
> At the same time, they were without
> doubt very interesting from a performance style point of view. All
> that makes it very hard to believe that Mackerras understood the
> style of Janacek music less than, uh, Mr Hall. Also, there are many
> elements in his WP readings, the edgy plasticity, the directness of
> the colors, the characterization of the episodes which mirror
> stylistically what you hear from Czech interpreters, ancerl included,
> without aping it. Plus they hadn't just stumbled across the
> Sinfonietta as a colorful orchestral showpiece like some people do
> who otherwise don't know much of Janacek's music, they had actually
> recorded his major operas together.
> Maybe it's also that since Mackerras is the only relevant contribution
> Australia has made to the world of "classical" music, in "classical"
> music circles in Australia (if those actually exist)
I've seen 2 or 3.
But then there was that hurricane.
> he must be
> something of a hero, so I guess it's cool for Mr Hall to tell people
> "what, you think he is an important conductor? Let me tell you the
> truth" or something like that. That is a very common strategy among
> people who want to appear smarter than all the other "retards" who
> can't even spell Rachmaninoff...
Or Janacheck.
>
> As you saw, I also have the set he recorded with the CzechP later. I
> like both. And Ancerl. And Neumann. And Kosler. Although I like Kosler
> less than the others. I also have Tars Bulba with Dohnanyi/Cleveland,
> another interesting reading. Also Gardiner as I had already mentioned,
> but that one struck me as less compelling. I just realized I also have
> it with Masur, but haven't opened the CD yet. Why did I buy that?
I seem to have that Gardiner recording too. Don't remember how it was.
Somewhere here there should be a recording by Pesek, and even one by
Rozhdestvensky.
But when I like to hear this music, I like to hear it in full glory, and the
Decca recording is helping very much.
Nicolai P. Zwar
>> A recording of Debussy's "La Mer" was among the first LPs I bought...
>> (don't remember right now which recording it was).
>
> Come on, we all know that it was Karajan, probably his 60s recording on
> one of those budget LP series DG used to have, "Resonance", "Galleria",
> or maybe even the one with the untalented paintings by Eliette von
> Karajan on the cover (the one which had a print of the painting inside
> the LP cover, as if it wasn't bad enough to have it just on the cover).
> Don't be ashamed to admit it. It wasn't your fault. The gay philosophy
> student who worked at the record shop told you "it is the best", so you
> bought it, it's not your fault.
LOL! I actually own two different Karajan recordings of LA MER on CD,
and I like them both a lot, but I know for sure that whatever was the
first LP of LA MER I bought, it was definitely not Karajan. :)
> Actually, that's one of the best recordings of the piece, very
> significant from a performance history point of view because it was
> unusual in that it blended French and German performance styles
> seamlessly into an interesting new style.
Agreed.
Andy Evans
Yes I have that and it's a very interesting one. I agree also with
Vaneyes that the Boulez La Mer with Cleveland is inferior to the
Philharmonia, but I do like the DG Jeux.
He gave a pretty good performance of Jeux last year with the BBC SO
that I've got on CD>>
Is this off the radio or commercial?
Michael Schaffer
Nicolai P. Zwar wrote:
> Michael Schaffer wrote:
> >> A recording of Debussy's "La Mer" was among the first LPs I bought...
> >> (don't remember right now which recording it was).
> >
> > Come on, we all know that it was Karajan, probably his 60s recording on
> > one of those budget LP series DG used to have, "Resonance", "Galleria",
> > or maybe even the one with the untalented paintings by Eliette von
> > Karajan on the cover (the one which had a print of the painting inside
> > the LP cover, as if it wasn't bad enough to have it just on the cover).
> > Don't be ashamed to admit it. It wasn't your fault. The gay philosophy
> > student who worked at the record shop told you "it is the best", so you
> > bought it, it's not your fault.
>
>
> LOL! I actually own two different Karajan recordings of LA MER on CD,
> and I like them both a lot,
That is very couragious of you to admit in public. I can top that
though: I have three! That one, an EMI from the 70s, and the last one
on DG from the 80s. The last one more for nostalgic reasons though, I
was in the live concert.
Nicolai P. Zwar
>> LOL! I actually own two different Karajan recordings of LA MER on CD,
>> and I like them both a lot,
>
> That is very couragious of you to admit in public.
Not in public per se, only in this group. :)
david...@aol.com
"Listening to La mer yet again, I find that most of my puzzlement is
with the 1st mvt. I'm OK with the rest. "
You know the wicked remark Satie made about "De l'aube a midi sur ma
mer"? "I like the part around 10:00 AM."
-david gable
david...@aol.com
"Yes I have that [Maderna's live Jeux] and it's a very interesting one.
I agree also with Vaneyes that the Boulez La Mer with Cleveland is
inferior to the Philharmonia, but I do like the DG Jeux."
My sentiments exactly..
MOI: "He gave a pretty good performance of Jeux last year with the BBC
SO that I've got on CD"
Andy: "Is this off the radio or commercial?"
Well, not off MY radio, but off somebody's. It was the concert given
in celebration of Boulez's 80th birthday with Maxwell Davies and
Birtwistle both present to give little speeches. The program included
music of Debussy, Ravel, and Boulez.
-david gable
Michael Schaffer
Aaahhh, but apparently you have never heard the legendary live
recording of Grigory Kaputnikov conducting the Idaho Veterinarians
Association Philharmonic live in Tijuana. Unless you have heard that
one, you really have no idea about "Jeux".
david...@aol.com
Steve supplied Nijinsky's synopsis. Boulez is right: Jeux is L'apres
midi d'un faune in tennis clothes.
-david gable
david...@aol.com
I liked Michael Steinberg's S.F. SO program note, too, but he doesn't
get Monteux's famous mot on the subject of Pelleas quite right: "It
was never a success, but a success was never intended."
I'm off to see if I can find a Steinberg note on La mer.
-david gable
Curtis Croulet
just that part of it escapes *me* -- it's my own special problem with the
piece. In contrast, I can well understand why some people don't "get" Jeux,
even though I feel I do.
Michael Schaffer
I think everybody understood that. I think somehow *the whole piece*
escapes me, but I still find it fascinating, one of my favorite pieces
of music. "Maybe it is like the sea, you can't ever grasp it completely
because its shape is so elusive?" (/kitsch off)
david...@aol.com
"Please understand, I don't question La mer's status as a masterpiece.
It's
just that part of it escapes *me* -- it's my own special problem with
the
piece. In contrast, I can well understand why some people don't "get"
Jeux,
even though I feel I do."
Curtis, I understood all of that.
-david gable
jrs...@aol.com
I have a reel of that too, but it is unlistenable. Amazing
performance--especially the sensitivity to subtle nuances.
I would like to hear Boulez's latest concerts of Jeux, but I must say
that Maderna was the one who ignited my interest in the work; Boulez
(Sony), de Sabata and Bour have also been favorites. I also have
Inghelbrecht and Dutoit, but sadly do not remember them. I'll have to
try them again.
--Jeff
Raymond Hall
news:1145854605.6...@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
We all have our blind spots. Having gathered together all the info from the
thread, I gave Jeux two hearings each, from Haitink/RPO on a Duo, and then
Baudo/LPO on an EMI Eminence.
Thankfully, Jeux is now my favourite Debussy piece. Having realised that it
is essentially music designed to be choreographed, and *how* it is thought
that Debussy was supposed to be not overly keen on Nijinsky's eventual
choreography, the relationship to Faun is inescapable, or even other
analogies are possible. However, the "games" scenario under the floodlights
at a tennis court helped a fair bit. It is a piece that is in constant
movement, with hardly any static quality at all. Constantly evolving, with
explosions of high brass, and as mentioned in the thread, propelled by waves
of orchestral movement. Harmonically, it is a marvel, and reaches much
further than La Mer ever does, which has its static moments. Makes one
wonder what Debussy would have achieved given more time and inclination,
after writing Jeux.
Fact is, Jeux is much more advanced, as I see it, than Le Sacre, and must be
a wonderful piece to hear live.
From my two versions, Baudo is far more flexible, much more plastic, keeping
movement constant, with quicksilver response from the LPO, who are in fine
fettle, and the recording excellent for a digital effort of 1986. Haitink
appears slightly stodgy besides Baudo (a specialist in much French music),
and the recording a fair bit older, but I wouldn't discount Haitink
completely out of hand. Simple fact is, Baudo is superior in every aspect.
Ray H
Taree
Andrew Rose
Just to clarify - HMV started using tape in October 1948, some 20 months
after the Jeux recording was made.
Michael Schaffer
So when you want to make a transfer, how do you go about it? Do you
have to find a good LP copy or set of 45s or can you get an archive
copy on tape from HMV that they presumably made at some point?
Michael Schaffer
Sad for those who rely on Baudo for this great score, and yet haven't
heard
Martinon. Chalk and cheese.
Andrew Rose
>> It is the same one. Tell me, Matthew, how does the Testament sound
>> compare to this clip, which I reckon is some of the best I've ever
>> managed from HMV 78s:
>>
>> http://tinyurl.com/ly98r
>>
>> (a 36s clip from just before the first side change, saved as a Lame APX
>> MP3 file, size 856KB and this afternoon's work in progress...)
>
> I'll try to remember to check later; right now the Metropolitan Opera
> broadcast is about to begin. I'm making a point of listening to every one
> of these, in this, its last season that will ever matter.
>
> It's a few minutes later. Well, I'd LIKE to be listening to the Met, but
> once again KUSC has screwed up and dropped the signal.
>
I've updated the file above as I've now finished restoring the discs and
made a few adjustments to the final release version, which will be out
on 1st May, at which point I'll post a longer section of the recording.
Still interested in a comparison if you have a few moments, Matthew...
Andrew
Andrew Rose
As you'll hear from the excerpt at http://tinyurl.com/ly98r (which I
updated this morning) by this time HMV were capable of getting amazing
results from 78rpm recordings, which would have been made direct to disc.
Indeed by comparison to early tape recordings these are undoubtedly
superior once the surface noise of the 78s has been dealt with. I've
just finished working on a 1950 recording of Bach's B minor mass, made
by Westminster across 6 LP sides from tape masters, which is without a
doubt sonically inferior to the Debussy recording despite the medium
from which it was transferred.
Michael Schaffer
I meant 78s of course, not 45s. Do I understand that corretly that you
are also releasing that de Sabata album or was that just an experiment?
The clip sounds really good for its time. Now all you have to is get
the world famous engineer Abedd to remaster it so that it doesn not
only meet audiophile, but true musical standards!
Andrew Rose
having put back another recording until June (Kathleen Long's Schumann).
I do now have a longer clip for listening - this surely has to be some
of the best sounding 78rpm material I've ever come across:
(As such I'll start a new thread on that topic...)
Michael Schaffer
It really sounds great (not as great as when ansermetniac had
remastered it, though, but we all know that). I want to have it. Can
you send me a copy for my birthday? Thanks!
David Wake
http://rapidshare.de/files/18904118/desabata_jeux_testament.mp3.html
Your transfer sounds much better
If this doesn't work, let me know and I'll email you privately.
David
Andrew Rose
>
> http://rapidshare.de/files/18904118/desabata_jeux_testament.mp3.html
>
> Your transfer sounds much better
>
> If this doesn't work, let me know and I'll email you privately.
>
> David
Many thanks, David - the download worked fine, and it was fascinating to
do an A/B comparison. Maybe it's down to the technology involved, or a
desire to remove all hiss, but the Testament version sounds like it was
approached without any real appreciation of what was in the grooves just
waiting to be brought out - in other words they applied a regular
approach to it that might equally well have applied to 78s from a decade
earlier, rather than one tailored more closely to the possibilities of
this particular recording.
Perhaps that's a bit harsh, but the Testament release does have that
thin '78s' sound about it, which really isn't necessary in this case,
and rarely in any other. My approach, which occasionally is quite
interventionist where necessary, is that I want to hear the music, not
the 78s. If I manage a good overall tone that sounds like it's coming
from 78s then that's often the starting point rather than the finishing
point.
With "Jeux" the music seemed almost to fall out of the discs. There was
a hiss issue which I initially hit too hard with noise reduction and
killed the sound a little, but with a gentler approach and some very
mild EQ adjustments I reached the results heard here. It served as a
great antidote to a 1923 string quartet recording I've been labouring
over this past week or so!
Maria ....@gmail.com
Gerontius on Testament with Heedle Nash and Sargent [1945] that makes
me want to cry.... DRY, BRITTLE and the performance is unique.... Must
write to you off-list and see if you have anything better.
Andrew Rose
April. I gather The Gramophone are about to publish nice words about it...
http://www.pristineaudiodirect.com/LargeWorks/Vocal/PACO009.php
Andrew Rose
>
> It really sounds great (not as great as when ansermetniac had
> remastered it, though, but we all know that). I want to have it. Can
> you send me a copy for my birthday? Thanks!
>
The Jeux recording is now available online and on CD:
http://www.pristineaudiodirect.com/LargeWorks/Orchestral/PASC046.php
Andrew Rose
> For me " Jeux" is a light-year advance over "La Mer". In places it
> anticipates the night music of Bartok. And though not as unsettling as the
> 2nd mvt of Music for Strings, Percussion and Celeste, Jeux is, in places,
> scary. I have the Boulez/ Philharmonia recording of Jeux, and that is
> still a first-recommendation...Has anyone heard a better Jeux than the
> Boulex?
>
From our independent reviewer, Bill Rosen:
"...In my opinion, only three conductors have really gotten Jeux right:
Haitink (Philips), Boulez (DG) and now De Sabata (Pristine Audio). If
anything De Sabata brings an added passion to Jeux that makes it so very
much more sensual and less evanescent without losing any of the clarity
of Boulez or the poise of Haitink. Never was I more aware of the human
yearning below the shifting textures of Jeux. The urgency of De Sabata's
last three minutes followed by the final evaporation cannot be matched
by the other two.
The sonic work on the 1947 pressings of Jeux will surely rank with
Pristine Audio's finest work. The sweetness of the strings, the clarity
of the woodwinds, the fullness of the bass, and the lack of a hint of
harshness or glassiness banishes any desire for stereo."
Raymond Hall
news:e34444$956$2...@news.tiscali.fr...
> Richard Sauer wrote:
>> For me " Jeux" is a light-year advance over "La Mer". In places it
>> anticipates the night music of Bartok. And though not as unsettling as
>> the 2nd mvt of Music for Strings, Percussion and Celeste, Jeux is, in
>> places, scary. I have the Boulez/ Philharmonia recording of Jeux, and
>> that is still a first-recommendation...Has anyone heard a better Jeux
>> than the Boulex?
>>
> From our independent reviewer, Bill Rosen:
>
> "...In my opinion, only three conductors have really gotten Jeux right:
> Haitink (Philips), Boulez (DG) and now De Sabata (Pristine Audio). If
> anything De Sabata brings an added passion to Jeux that makes it so very
> much more sensual and less evanescent without losing any of the clarity of
> Boulez or the poise of Haitink.
That may well be so, but the above makes me *really* wonder if said reviewer
above has ever heard Baudo on EMI with the LPO. And if he hasn't, then he
should, and at least make an assessment of the Baudo.
As I have said before, I have Haitink and Baudo, and for these ears, Baudo
sweeps the board with Haitink. Not that Haitink is bad. Simply that Baudo is
so good. But one has to hear both to make that assessment.
Ray H
Taree
MELMOTH
22/04/2006, dans nos oreilles grandes ouvertes mais un peu sales quand
même, et dans le message <D-CdnbZ-Gvk...@comcast.com>, les doux
mélismes suivants :
> ...Has anyone heard a better Jeux than the Boulex?
Pierre Monteux...
Of course...
--
Car avec beaucoup de science, il y a beaucoup de chagrin; et celui qui
accroît sa science, accroît sa douleur.
[Ecclésiaste, 1]
Melmoth - souffrant
Michael Schaffer
What about La Mer?
Michael Schaffer
It it's the Bill Rosen I know from San Diego, he probably has. He has
about 2.7 million recordings.
Curtis Croulet
I've met this Bill Rosen! I didn't know he had such a collection or wrote
reviews(?)!
--
Curtis Croulet
Temecula, California
Raymond Hall
news:UfWdnc31c_5ki8vZ...@adelphia.com...
>
> I've met this Bill Rosen! I didn't know he had such a collection or wrote
> reviews(?)!
At any rate it would be nice to get other reviews abut Baudo's recording.
Not just the digital EMI with the LPO, but an earlier Jeux with the Czech
PO, during the 60s, which has attracted even more ravishing reviews. Not to
take into account the other accounts by Baudo with French orchestras.
Frankly I don't quite know how many La Mers Baudo has recorded, or Jeux-iii,
but he has recorded quite a few.
Fwiw, and maybe not, when the EMI Eminence was listed in a previous
incarnation of the Gramophone (about 10 years ago), the CD attracted a
Rosette. I never 'quite' understood this wrt La Mer, good as it is, and with
me tending at that stage to listen to Jeux with 'wrong' ears, the CD was one
that I managed to keep, despite my personal query over the Rosette. I am
glad I did.
The CD is now for Jeux mostly, but I would now like to hear the earlier
Supraphon account by Baudo, which has different couplings for Jeux (Images
for orchestra) I think.
Ray H
Taree
Jack Hamilton
>Rich writes:
>
>"I've always thought of the program (tennis match) for Jeux as a
>joke.... "
>
>Nijinsky proposed the ballet to Diaghilev and supplied the original
>scenario. Boulez described Jeux as "Apres-midi d'un faune in tennis
>clothes," and Debussy himself regarded the ballet's ostensible topic
>with a degree of irony. In a letter to Stravinsky he tells Stravinsky
>the title, "Games, which conveniently summarizes the 'horrors' that
>pass among these three personages."
>
>Tennis is obviously a metaphor for sexual relationships from seduction
>to intercourse and Debussy's score is a meditation on that topic
>belonging to a tradition that includes the Adagio from Berlioz's Romeo
>et Juliette, Tristan, and the middle movement of Boulez's Visage
>nuptial.
When the San Francisco Symphony performed this pice earlier in the year,
the program notes said that Diaghilev had originally intended the ballet
to be about three boys, not two girls and a boy, but that he had decided
that such a theme would be too much for his audiences.
The SFS performance will probably be broadcast, but I don't know when.
Jack Hamilton
j...@acm.org
-----
Though in a state of society some must have greater
luxuries and comforts than others, yet all should have
the necessities of life; and if the poor cannot exist,
in vain may the rich look for happiness or prosperity.
The legistlature is never so well employed as when they
look to the interests of those who are at a distance
from them in the ranks of society. It is their duty
to do so; religion calls for it; humanity calls for it;
and if there are hearts who are not awake to either of
those feelings, their own interests would dictate it.
Sir Lloyd Kenyon, Rex vs. Rusby, 1800
Paul Goldstein
>
>"david...@aol.com" <david...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>>Rich writes:
>>
>>"I've always thought of the program (tennis match) for Jeux as a
>>joke.... "
>>
>>Nijinsky proposed the ballet to Diaghilev and supplied the original
>>scenario. Boulez described Jeux as "Apres-midi d'un faune in tennis
>>clothes," and Debussy himself regarded the ballet's ostensible topic
>>with a degree of irony. In a letter to Stravinsky he tells Stravinsky
>>the title, "Games, which conveniently summarizes the 'horrors' that
>>pass among these three personages."
>>
>>Tennis is obviously a metaphor for sexual relationships from seduction
>>to intercourse and Debussy's score is a meditation on that topic
>>belonging to a tradition that includes the Adagio from Berlioz's Romeo
>>et Juliette, Tristan, and the middle movement of Boulez's Visage
>>nuptial.
>
>When the San Francisco Symphony performed this pice earlier in the year,
>the program notes said that Diaghilev had originally intended the ballet
>to be about three boys, not two girls and a boy, but that he had decided
>that such a theme would be too much for his audiences.
>
>The SFS performance will probably be broadcast, but I don't know when.
Tilson Thomas recorded the piece with the LSO for Sony. Like Ray, though, I
find the music unapproachable, in MTT's hands and in everybody else's. Too
random and fragmented to make sense to me.
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Brendan R. Wehrung
Inglebrecht
Brendan
Michael Schaffer
No, I meant if he would also publish the de Sabata recording of La Mer
and whatever else is available. There is more space on a disc than for
"just" Jeux.
alanwa...@aol.com
Be warned - Mr Baudo's recordings (aside from the Honegger) have
completely dropped out of the 2006 Supraphon European catalogue. Still
listed in Czechia at the moment but I always see these things as a
portent.
Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins
Michael Schaffer
How "correct" or "incorrect" is it to refer to the CR as Czechia (or
Tschechien in German, or whatever the parallel forms are in other
languages)? I noted that very few people use that term, especially in
Germany where people always say "Tschechische Republik", never
"Tschechien". Is there some historical ballast or political
uncorrectness connected with that?
alanwa...@aol.com
I am just an old chap trying to stay "with it! - Czechia is in,
although I don't like it myself and I note that most of the Czech
government web sites don't bother with it either:):)
But it turns up with the bright young things on breakfast TV and I've
played for Katherine Jenkins so I'm just going with the flow as they
say.
Personally I prefer Ceska Republika.