Why is it called a "french" horn?
clifford bettis
wondering why it is sometimes called the french horn. I've heard the
story about the english horn being a corruption of a sensible french
description and was wondering if something similar happened with the
horn.
Cliff Bettis
Jack D. Hill
I have the following records for sale. I would like to liquidate part
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are "Shaded Dogs" and the VICS records are all Plum labels.
Jack Hill
jdh...@bbn.com
(617)873-2831
LSC-2201 Mussorgsky - Pictures M $150
CSO - Reiner
This record is pristine in every respect.
LSC-2222 Debussy - Iberia M $225
CSO - Reiner
Record is mint, jacket has a tear in the upper corner.
LSC-2225 Witches Brew M/M- $300
New Symphony Orchestra of London - Gibson
Light 1" scratch that runs half way between the last two bands of side 2.
LSC-2400 Ballet Music from the Opera M $375
Paris Conservatory Orchestra - Fistoulari
Record and jacket are absolutely mint.
LDS-6065 Royal Ballet Gala Performance G $200
Royal Opera House Orchestra - Ansermet
Numerous light scratches but in very listenable condition.
VICS-1054 Dvorak - Slavonic Dances M $25
LSO - Martinon
VICS-1064 Lalo - Symph. Espagnol M $25
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VICS-1068 Festival M $25
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VICS-1110 Bartok - Concerto Orch. M $25
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VICS-1119 Venice M $25
Royal Opera House Orchestra - Solti
MORE MESSY THAN THOU
French Horn is a misnomer in English. None of the words for horn in other
European languages imply the origin of the instrument:
French: cor
Italian: corno
Spanish: trompa
German: Ventilhorn, Waldhorn
Usually in orchestra parts, the instrument is called for in a specific key,
like F horn or Eb horn, and F being the most common key, us silly
English-speaking people became confused and thought the F was an abbreviation
for French. It has become standard for us to call it a French horn, despite the
fact that that is technically incorrect.
-G.
Mats Bengtsson
The Swedish horn player Ib Lansky-Otto had made a recording and one of the
critics wrote that "Ib Lansky and Otto French were playing horn" (Horn (or
valthorn) is swedish for french horn.)
/Mats B
Deum pro cerebro
: My 10 year old has taken up the horn and we were
: Cliff Bettis
As *I* understand it:
As horns finally were being to tinkered with to provide for their use as
orchestral instruments rather than as signal instruments (i.e., used as a
signal), it became increasingly important--as kings of the time were in
competition to have THEIRS be the best orchestra of all--to have the
latest innovations in instruments and playing styles, constantly
stretching the capabilities of both.
Composers and players alike wanted to see horns included in orchestras,
but, as they existed at the time, they were to limited... and too
harsh--being coiled tubing (no valves) and being only to reach whatever
limited harmonics were available within the key of the horn. Well, horns
were made to be not so harsh, and the key of the horn could eventually be
changed by the addition of "crooks" (lengths of tubing, thereby
lengthening the overall tubing... viola! key change), but horns were
still limited to the harmonics of the key, which meant that one could
definitely not play a scale on one of these horns without shoving the hand
into the bell to flatten the harmonic above the note desired... so I
suppose one COULD play a scale, but one could not get a beautiful open
tone (such as horns are infamous for) with one's hand shoved up the horn.
So, blah blah blah and this and that, and... VALVES. BUT, different
places came up with different types of valves: from the "French" school
came the use of plunger-like valves (such as on trumpets) on horns. The
players in the French School were very much in demand, too, with their
light, lyrical playing style. I'm not too sure, but I think that there
was also a "Viennese" valve system, which more closely resembles the
rotary valves used today on most, if not all, horns. The rotary valves,
though, were a German innovation. They allow for much more agility than
the plunger valves of the French, but the Germans were dark, heavy players.
So, as the tinkering continued, innovations were crossbred, and lighter
sounding horns with rotary valves emerged... though, not before the term
"French Horn" caught on, evidently. Look at modern examples. How many
people refer to a copy as a "xerox", a tissue as a "kleenex". That sort
of thing.
I hope this is the sort of answer you are looking for. It is a very
common question, but takes SO much background information to answer
effectively. "French Horn", you now see, is quite a misnomer, as would be
"German Horn" (since rotary valves are a German innovation), or any other
Horn, really. Here in Cleveland, my instructor is Alan DeMattia of the
Cleveland Orchestra. The preferred Horn to have here is a Conn (8D).
There is a Conn factory in Eastlake, and a good number of the Horns in
the Orchestra are from that factory... but, in the program, you will not
see "Eastlake Horns"...
There is a very nice book out from the Amadeus Press entitled, as if a
surprise, _The Horn_ ! I can get more info to anyone who may inquire.
Best of luck to both you and your ten-year old, Cliff!!
David A. Murawski C /
Cleveland State University -----+=\\
dmur...@omega.csuohio.edu < \
Ian Phillipps
MORE MESSY THAN THOU <ree...@UWYO.EDU> wrote:
>In article <354caq$r...@crcnis1.unl.edu>, cbe...@unlinfo.unl.edu (clifford bettis) writes:
>>My 10 year old has taken up the horn and we were
>>wondering why it is sometimes called the french horn.
>French Horn is a misnomer in English. None of the words for horn in other
>European languages imply the origin of the instrument:
>English-speaking people became confused and thought the F was an abbreviation
>for French. It has become standard for us to call it a French horn, despite the
>fact that that is technically incorrect.
I should really point out that the invariable "French" prefix is much
less common in England - it appears to be a US usage, probably to avoid
confusion because "horn" has come to mean almost any wind instrument in
American English.
I'm inclined to doubt the "in F" explanation, because the current
instrument does indeed bear more of a resemblance to the French
(hunting) horn than other nationalities. German/Austrian Waldhorns
were(are) tightly-coiled instruments, and English hunting horns are
very short, and not much use for music (you can't blow the higher
harmonics on them).
I don't have a book on horn history to hand, but quoting from memory,
the French hunting horn was admired by a Bohemian (i.e. Czech) nobleman,
who started having horns made for musical purposes.
Ian
x92tr...@wmich.edu
> I should really point out that the invariable "French" prefix is much
> less common in England - it appears to be a US usage, probably to avoid
> confusion because "horn" has come to mean almost any wind instrument in
> American English.
Actually, I have read of usage of the term French horn in England as early
as, if memory serves me correctly, the 16th century. I do agree, however,
that it is much more common in American English than in England, but one
cannot doubt that the term originated in England, probably before the US
existed as a country.
Peter Hoogenboom
: French Horn is a misnomer in English. None of the words for horn in other
: European languages imply the origin of the instrument:
That doesn't mean that the English name is incorrect, however.
: Usually in orchestra parts, the instrument is called for in a specific key,
: like F horn or Eb horn, and F being the most common key, us silly
: English-speaking people became confused and thought the F was an abbreviation
: for French. It has become standard for us to call it a French horn, despite the
: fact that that is technically incorrect.
This seemed so unlikely to me that I went to the OED. The earliest
citation for "French horn" was 1682, LONG before F was standard, or even
most common.
It did not give any history of WHY it was called "French horn," so I went
to Grove. The Horn article suggests that the horn did in fact originate
in France (though it cannot be proved certainly). It also points out
that the French didn't develop the horn as an orchestral instrument
first. They used it for hunting.
I quote:
"These two entries in the Household Accounts [of Charles II] are, of
course, no more than pointers, but that they point in the direction of
France is suggested by the following advertisement in _The Loyal
Protestant and Domestick Intelligence_ for 7 March 1682 [this is the same
source cited in the OED]:
"'William Bull, one of His Majestie's Trumpeters-in-Ordinary, and trumpet
maker, is remov'd from the Trumpet and Horn in Salisbury street near the
Strand, to the Trumpet and Horn at the lower end of the Haymarket near
the Pall-Mall-end; where any Gentleman may be furnished with Trumpets,
French Horns, Speaking Trumpets and Flasks of all sorts both Silver and
Brass.'
"Clearly the french horn was quite familiar in England by this time, and
that the instrument should have been thus designated at so early a date
greatly strengthens the supposition that it did, in fact, originate in
France."
There follows a story of a Bohemian nobleman hearing the French _trompe_
(as it was called there) for the first time in France, and having two of
his court trained to play the thing. This is the origin of the Bohemian
school of horn playing.
Another myth down the tubes.
--
Peter Hoogenboom phoo...@wlu.edu
Department of Music, DuPont 208 phoog...@eagle.wesleyan.edu
Washington and Lee University (703) 463-3147
Lexington, VA 24450
Matthew H. Fields
considered separate noisemakers in the talmud...national origins for
something like this might be harder to pin down than it seems...
Peter Hoogenboom
developed long before the French were using horns for orchestral music.
It was also developed long before the hand-stopping technique, which
arrived in the mid-to-late 18th Century (AFTER Bach!). See my earlier
post.
Deum pro cerebro (dmur...@omega.csuohio.edu.) wrote:
: definitely not play a scale on one of these horns without shoving the hand
: into the bell to flatten the harmonic above the note desired... so I
: suppose one COULD play a scale, but one could not get a beautiful open
: tone (such as horns are infamous for) with one's hand shoved up the horn.
: So, blah blah blah and this and that, and... VALVES. BUT, different
: places came up with different types of valves: from the "French" school
: came the use of plunger-like valves (such as on trumpets) on horns. The
: players in the French School were very much in demand, too, with their
: light, lyrical playing style. I'm not too sure, but I think that there
: was also a "Viennese" valve system, which more closely resembles the
: rotary valves used today on most, if not all, horns. The rotary valves,
: though, were a German innovation. They allow for much more agility than
: the plunger valves of the French, but the Germans were dark, heavy players.
: So, as the tinkering continued, innovations were crossbred, and lighter
: sounding horns with rotary valves emerged... though, not before the term
: "French Horn" caught on, evidently. Look at modern examples. How many
: people refer to a copy as a "xerox", a tissue as a "kleenex". That sort
: of thing.
--
Peter Hoogenboom
: I should really point out that the invariable "French" prefix is much
: less common in England - it appears to be a US usage, probably to avoid
: confusion because "horn" has come to mean almost any wind instrument in
: American English.
This is probably why the term has persisted more strongly in the US, but
the OED says (and I paraphrase): "Horn, more fully, French Horn." They
also provide several citations using the phrase "French Horn" before one
comes in without the first word.