Beethoven influnces

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Arthur Ness

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Sep 1, 2005, 12:10:56 PM9/1/05
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The discussion was about Beethoven influences on 19th century guitar music, in a thread started by Eugene Braig.  It had nothing to do with Matanya, but he came charging in any way.  I remembered the example of a typical Beethoven chord progression that I saw in that Irish fantasia on his web site several years ago.  But because I didn't want to to be distracted by the wrong notes in his edition, I referred to the original manuscript in Copenhagen which can be downloaded 
 
The spelling "Leonardo Schultz" is used in an article in Guitar Review, and presumably elsewhere, since the guitarist is mentioned in passing.  Brian Jeffery also uses that spelling. But the spelling of his name wasn't the topic of discussion.
 
Which spelling should be used? If  I were editing a book, I'd use the spelling given in the Library of Congress Name Authority files, which are used by library cataloguers to provide uniformity in all U.S. libraries. If he is not in the Name Authority files, I'd see what spelling is used in New Grove, and so forth down the line. Maybe we could compromise and use "Leonardus Praetorius." My my. There's a Praetorius listed in Zuth's handbook on the lute and guitar. A relative, perhaps?
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 10:42 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Matanya Ophee and the lutelist
 
<<snip>>
I can't even remember
> what the original dispute between Arthur and Matanya was about. I think it
> had something to do with whether  a certain composer's name was Leonhart
or
> Leornardo. I think Matanya's vitriol reflects more on Matanya than Arthur,
> and Arthur wisely chose to ignore most of it.
 
 

edspy...@yahoo.com

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Sep 1, 2005, 12:34:46 PM9/1/05
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Arthur Ness,

The Beethoven influences thread sounds very interesting. Is the lute
group a Google group? Could you please post the link?

Thank uou,

Ed S.

Young Generation

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Sep 1, 2005, 1:11:16 PM9/1/05
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There was a Googgle mirror at one time. But you can accessthe lute list
archive.

CheckWayne Cripps's (he's the list owner) lute page.And surely you are
welcome to join the list. The instructions for subscribing are also on
wayne's page.

Matanya's constant harping that guitarists are not welcomed is
entirely false. Just today a guitarist was telling the group how effective
was a performance of Dowland's Forlorn Hope Fantasia on a grand piano. That
may be a tempting target for the SoHippers, but there is a tolerance for a
varierty of views over there. Matanya and that Thames guy were booted
because their comments were seen as libelous, and would render the list
owner liable for a suit for libel, if one were to be launched. (According to
a lawyer who reads the the list.) Which seems
very unlikely. But libel is not protected free speech.

Oh yes, almost forgot. Wayne's page (lots of interesting stuff on it),
including loads of lute music in tablature (*.pdf and other formats),
addresses of lute societies allover the world, links, etc.

Wayne
also has a free tablature program that could be used to make Guitar TABs.

http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute/lute.html

Ricardo
Young Generation, Inc..
<edspy...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1125592486.7...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

edspy...@yahoo.com

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Sep 1, 2005, 1:28:47 PM9/1/05
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YG,

Thanks for the link. I'll just be lurking on the Lute list.

Ed S.

Matanya Ophee

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Sep 3, 2005, 9:03:28 PM9/3/05
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"Arthur Ness" <arthu...@verizon.net> wrote:

>The discussion was about Beethoven influences on 19th century guitar music, in a thread started by Eugene Braig. It had nothing to do with Matanya, but he came charging in any way. I remembered the example of a typical Beethoven chord progression that I saw in that Irish fantasia on his web site several years ago. But because I didn't want to to be distracted by the wrong notes in his edition, I referred to the original manuscript in Copenhagen which can be downloaded
>
>The spelling "Leonardo Schultz" is used in an article in Guitar Review, and presumably elsewhere, since the guitarist is mentioned in passing. Brian Jeffery also uses that spelling. But the spelling of his name wasn't the topic of discussion.
>
>Which spelling should be used? If I were editing a book, I'd use the spelling given in the Library of Congress Name Authority files, which are used by library cataloguers to provide uniformity in all U.S. libraries. If he is not in the Name Authority files, I'd see what spelling is used in New Grove, and so forth down the line. Maybe we could compromise and use "Leonardus Praetorius." My my. There's a Praetorius listed in Zuth's handbook on the lute and guitar. A relative, perhaps?


http://tinyurl.com/a8t29

Matanya Ophee
Editions Orphe'e, Inc.,
1240 Clubview Blvd. N.
Columbus, OH 43235-1226
614-846-9517
fax: 614-846-9794
http://www.orphee.com
http://www.livejournal.com/users/matanya/

tomb...@jhu.edu

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Sep 3, 2005, 9:42:08 PM9/3/05
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It's hard to believe how worked up you two guys get over how to spell a
name from two hundred years ago. If either of you were a better rounded
historian, you would realize how foolish this debate is. By insisting
that there is only one valid spelling for each word, you are engaging
in what historiographers call "presentism."

Mick Stranaham

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Sep 3, 2005, 11:22:45 PM9/3/05
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You guys both need blowjobs. Lots and lots of blowjobs. If you can't get
them from your wives, seek them elsewhere. I repeat, I detect a MAJOR
blowjob shortage here.

Arthur Ness

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Sep 4, 2005, 5:06:20 PM9/4/05
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I wish you would pay closer attention to what I wrote. I have never gotten "worked up" over this matter.  But Matanya surely has. I sometimes find it amusing  to see how many words he will generate on such an inconsequential matter as a hyphen.  (Hyphenated names are a personal preference matter.) And I had nothing to do with his being kicked off the Lute List. I do not even know why and how it happened.
 
I have NEVER said Leonhard Schulz was an incorrect spelling. Matnya can spell the name any way he wants.  I don't give a damn. And why he should be so concerned about how I spell it, is beyond explanation. I just wish he'd correct all those wrong notes in that Irish fantasia  And I do find it farfetched to use Sir Thomas' racist remarks as an explantion for the wrong notes.
 
My point is that we were discussing a Beethoven-like chord progression in the Lute List, when Matanya came charging in about the spelling of the composer's name. And then the thread became a list of Italianized names that Austrian composers had used: Luigi van Beethoven, Giuseppe Haydn, Antonio Rosetti (Anton Roessler), Giovanni Frederico Colombo (Johann Friedrich Daube), etc. At that time it was not unusual for an Austrian composer to Italianize his/her name. Rosetti became so famed under that name that it is the main entry in New Grove.  
 
I find that Russian transliteration explanation hard to believe.  Claiming that Leonardo comes from a mis-transliteration of Leonarda going awfully far afield for an explanation. Leonardo/Leonhard's brother had an Italianized name, too, "Eduardo."  But I don't think he was a pianist, and suspect Matnaya is stepping on bovine feces in the another Field.
 
And let us not forget what the famous Czech composer (famous to some of us), Krsto Zyzik, who was born in Pressburg on February 29th, 1900, and traveled widely to Pozsony and Bratislava, before returning to his birthplace. There is a biography of him by Sol Mysnik entitled "A Czech Checkmate" (Los Angeles 1979).  Maybe Greg will review it for us if they have a copy at the U of MN.
 
But I have no intention of czeching MO's facts. Since he is known for making things up, I certainly would never trust anything he writes. Especially when it comes to transliteration from the Russian.  I guess I should have suggested Praetoriorum instead of Praetorius for Schulz/Schultz.<g>  (Praetorius and Schultz both mean "protector" or "guard."  In this case it is a Latinization of the name, whch also happens, and so Michael Praetorius is more famous than Michael Schultheis.)
 
This reminds me about one of the conductors of the famous Garde (yet another Schultz) Republicaine band. When he reached 65, he left the band but continued to conduct bands in Ruhestan, according to a U.S. band encyclopedia.
 
I sometimes edit music books professionally.  I have done two for Harvard, including one by Eliot Forbes, the Beethoven scholar (editor of Thayer) and former director of the Harvard Glee Club (book editors' names usually remain confidential, but Forbes thanks me in his preface.) . When you encounter a name that has been used in different forms, it becomes necessary to track down the modern, "accepted" spelling of a name. Fortunately it doesn't come up very often.
 
Similarly a library cataloguer would consult the Name Authority files maintained by the Library of Congress to determine the spelling of the author's name under which to list the work. According to the copy editor's "bible," the Chicago manual of style, the Webster's biographical dictionary is also acceptable for determining a proper spelling. The Name Authority file also lists alternate forms of the name which would be used as cross ("see") references.
 
That's all I was trying to explain.  I don't even know which spelling is "accepted," for our Schulz/Schultz, Leonardo or Leonhard or Leonard.  But if I were editing a book or cataloguing his music I'd have to find out. 
 
It's done that way so that you can conveniently find his works in the library, or in the index, or in a music dictionary.  As most of you probably already know.  That's the reason for the Anglo-American Cataloguing Rules (AACR to the initiated).  It prevents chaos in the library,and permits the most inexperienced library patron to find books with ease.
 
I always go to the wrong letter to find Tchaikovsky in a library catalogue. Or has it been changed from "C" to "T"? Looking up Tchaikovsky will bring a cross-reference to the main entry, Chaikovsky, the Name Authoirty spelling.<shudder> It's that official transliteration thing again.
 
Where Matanya is definitely wrong is the matter of Madame Sidney-Pratten. As the family genealogist Graham Dove Pratten has shown, there was a branch of the Pratten family that were musicians who used the name Sidney-Pratten or Sidney Pratten. (Use or non-use of the hyphen is a matter of personal preference.)   The famous guitarist born Catherina Josepha Pelzer married into the Sidney-Pratten line. Her husband was considered the finest flutist of his day, and his first name was Robert, not Sydney, as Matanya says. There are hundreds of his works extant, many in the British Library (where one would expect to find them; that may be why Matanya didn't look there<g>).
 
In this case, the spelling can be crucial. She owned a handwritten treatise on music by Fernando Sor.  Its present whereabouts is unknown and so to discover it, as I write a team is at work in London archives tracing her heirs. The researchers might miss an important document if they don't check under both "S" and "P." A point I tried to make toMatanya several years ago, but he still doesn't get it.
 
It's the same problem with Peter Maxwell Davies.  Every now and then someone on this list asks about his guitar music and where to find it. Can't find it in the GSP catalogue? Strange. What about Reginald Smith Brindle?  Also not in GSP?  Strange.
 
Well their music indeed is listed in the GSP catalogue, under Maxwell and Brindle, and without cross reference, under Davies  and Smith, resp.  I wonder how many sales they've lost due to the missing cross reference? (I'm referring to the 2002, 26th edition of the GSP printed catalogue.  I must remind them when I order another catalogue. It's wise to have one because the online catalogue is not reliable for some reason.)
 
AJN.
====================

tomb...@jhu.edu

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Sep 4, 2005, 5:18:48 PM9/4/05
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According to the latest news reports, the national blowjobless rate is
at an all-time high:

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/39680

Andrew Schulman

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Sep 4, 2005, 8:58:41 PM9/4/05
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The tenor was asked why he and the alto got married and his response
was, "The choir disbanded and it was the only way to continue our
argument."

Andrew

P.S. I don't know what this has to do with anything either, so please
don't ask...

Matanya Ophee

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Sep 4, 2005, 11:38:53 PM9/4/05
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"Arthur Ness" <arthu...@verizon.net> wrote:

>Matnya can spell the name any way he wants. I don't give a damn.
>And why he should be so concerned about how I spell it, is beyond explanation.

It prevents chaos in the library, and permits the most inexperienced
library patron to find books with ease. ...<grin>

> I just wish he'd correct all those wrong notes in that Irish fantasia

OK. Since you are so concerned with my wrong notes, let us see what
you can do. You can engrave in Score, you have access to the same
source I used, so let us see how good an editor YOU are. Actually,
everybody has access to the same source I used and many here are
competent engravers and editors of guitar music. So how about another
contest? not an emulation, and not a comparison between engraving
software, but a contest between editors. You have in front of you all
the rationale I used in making my own edition here:

http://www.orphee.com/irish.htm

print it out, study it, and see what you agree with and what you do
not, then make up your own edition and submit it to me in PDF format.
You too, Arthur. Let's say, a cut off date of November 15th?

I will then post all the submissions on a specially designed page on
my web site, all at once, and we shall give the people a chance to
compare and judge for themselves. And remember: we will not be
comparing Lilypond to Finale to Sibelius, but the individual editor's
competence. Individual judgments of each of the submissions will be
sent privately to an ombudsman, I would suggest John Sloan would be a
good person to handle that, and then the results will be published
here on St. Patrick's Day 2006, I will bestow on the winner the grand
prize of a six-pack of Guinness stout, at my expense. Second prize
winner will get a six-pack of Arrogant Bastard Ale. There will not be
a third prize.

Matanya Pollack-O'Phee.

elmcmeen

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Sep 5, 2005, 6:37:14 AM9/5/05
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"Matanya Ophee" <m.o...@orphee.com> wrote in message
>
> Matanya Pollack-O'Phee.

Ah, another Celtic convert.

Excellent!

EM


Matanya Ophee

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Sep 5, 2005, 11:06:09 AM9/5/05
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"elmcmeen" <elmcmeen...@ptd.net> wrote:

I am no convert at all, but the real thing. What you apparently do not
know, is that there 12 tribes who were exiled from the Land of Israel.
Only 2 of them seems to have survived and 10 are lost. Old story. But
the mere fact that red hair occurs naturally in only two racial
groups, the Ashkenazi Jews and the Celts, would indicate where the 10
lost tribes ended...

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